Guild Wars 2

Well, because no matter how much you may think they are above it they will be like everyone else, wanting their class buffed and all others nerfed. You really need a objective viewpoint to properly balance.

Neare.9703:

Well, because no matter how much you may think they are above it they will be like everyone else, wanting their class buffed and all others nerfed. You really need a objective viewpoint to properly balance.

I think that’s dismissing it too easily. Many of the top players play several classes and they genuinely would like to see the PVP in this game grow into an e-sport. Many players are very aware that by helping balance the game rather than having their class dominate, they secure a brighter future for themselves in the game rather than having that one patch of one-sided glory.

But I definitely agree in that many players will be tempted to do so. That’s why I think it should be an open discussion where both the players and ANet are really transparent, rather than a one sided feedback submission.

Aside from sotg, they regularly chat with top players in hotm about the game, and I’ve seen them guest people too.

Mammoth.1975:

Aside from sotg, they regularly chat with top players in hotm about the game, and I’ve seen them guest people too.

You’ve no idea how happy that comment made me, Mammoth!

didn’t they mention on SotG that they keep contact with a bunch of players to discuss balance? they even said some had their phone numbers.

it’s not like ignoring the community and doing whatever they want would do them any good.

would be nice they would add someday something like an ARENANET BETA CUSTOMARENA where arenanet devs can go in and spectate the play and only some players they gave status “Beta tester” on account can join in
and their they have the next update running and ppl can test it and talk about
maby 3-4 servers like this and only the BETA TESTERS can see them so devs can work with the players – they can play their or just spectate and so on

ppl like Xeph, Supcutie, Teldo, Gasmask, Grouch, or this both other guys from last sotg – battosai and this necroguy^^ …… you get the point

ppl which know what a balanced game need and dont care when their own class have to be nerfed for this goal

Top play doesn’t mean they have no bias or that they are clever.

As Neare and others have already pointed out: Elite players don’t necessarily have the right mindset to objectively balance the game.

They could however provide helpful insight about the meta and their class/es, but (for example) not attune for the affects balancing has on new players.

Conan.8046:

Top play doesn’t mean they have no bias or that they are clever.

nor did I suggest kitten

but it suggest they have greater insight than most others and certainly better ideas in regards to how to balance the game

they should, because most likely many top players know all classes and they know the potential of them, and wont mistake a l2p issue with a overpowered game mechanic.

They tried it in GW1 with the old balance forums that Izzy ran. Ended up that Izzy just did whatever [rawr] told him to (along with a bunch of batkitten crazy stuff that didn’t make sense) and they manipulated him into building a meta that supported their defensive spike builds.

Bringing in players to balance the game only works if the players aren’t going to manipulate balance to suit their own playstyles.

Have you heard of Powerr? Powerr is/was one of teh top players in the game, and he is a Q.A. Anet staff member. His game comprehension is astounding. Team PZ ftw.

ArenaNet has always requested feedback from top end teams, the lead QA developer runs multiple classes in tournaments in the high end. The balance of the game is quite good, it’s just necromancers are too strong at this moment.

i think i said this 6months ago, they gona keep nerfing stuff and try to hit the perfect balance but guess what…. not gonna happen.
this could have been such an awsome game

Generally top tier players are extremely biased to their respective roles/race/etc. Since the last good multi profession player is already working for Q&A, I don’t really expect them to do anything like this.

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Generally top tier players are extremely biased to their respective roles/race/etc. Since the last good multi profession player is already working for Q&A, I don’t really expect them to do anything like this.

Precisely.

If you watch the state of games, when they asked about guardians the top end teams stated that they were balanced and needed no work. Yet you NEVER see any DPS guardians, they all run bunker builds and their zeal trait is so broken that it’s not even worth speccing 10 into Zeal for increased fire damage because you use the virtue of justice for blinds.

Short answer:

Balance the game around fighting/tPvP is about map control.

You can’t balance “completely” around the two. Add in a refusal to separate PvE from PvP on a greater scale the difference gets even bigger.

That said, even with all that, it’s still ten times more balanced than WoW ever was, which is saying something considering how long the two have been around respectively.

Chase.8415:

EoNxBoNx.9213:

Generally top tier players are extremely biased to their respective roles/race/etc. Since the last good multi profession player is already working for Q&A, I don’t really expect them to do anything like this.

Precisely.

If you watch the state of games, when they asked about guardians the top end teams stated that they were balanced and needed no work. Yet you NEVER see any DPS guardians, they all run bunker builds and their zeal trait is so broken that it’s not even worth speccing 10 into Zeal for increased fire damage because you use the virtue of justice for blinds.

In all honestly, Guardians are pretty good single target DPS, the problem is, there’s no room for single target DPS in tPvP. AoE/Swiftness/Conditions + team coordination (outnumber first and overwhelm) is the only name of the game, sadly, past a certain point.

They did! They brought in the “top player” Powerr who exploited every bug available in the game along with his team to make his way to the top of QP leaderboards!

Months of exploiting block bug and what else they could get their hands on in order to make their way to the top. And now he’s working as QUALITY ASSURANCE for Arenanet!! Doesn’t that give you a lot of hope that this game will go in the right direction?? XD

Arenanubs really blow my mind quite often with how little they actually seem to care about SPvP through their actions alone. Say and claim many things … but do they actually do these things?

“Until it’s ready” I suppose, lawl.

Jesiah.2457:

They did! They brought in the “top player” Powerr who exploited every bug available in the game along with his team to make his way to the top of QP leaderboards!

Months of exploiting block bug and what else they could get their hands on in order to make their way to the top. And now he’s working as QUALITY ASSURANCE for Arenanet!! Doesn’t that give you a lot of hope that this game will go in the right direction?? XD

Arenanubs really blow my mind quite often with how little they actually seem to care about SPvP through their actions alone. Say and claim many things … but do they actually do these things?

“Until it’s ready” I suppose, lawl.

I never heard anything about him exploiting, but they did choose the right person. He can play many classes quite well compared to most people. The balancing doesn’t seem to have any particular favoritism.

Jesiah.2457:

They did! They brought in the “top player” Powerr who exploited every bug available in the game along with his team to make his way to the top of QP leaderboards!

Months of exploiting block bug and what else they could get their hands on in order to make their way to the top. And now he’s working as QUALITY ASSURANCE for Arenanet!! Doesn’t that give you a lot of hope that this game will go in the right direction?? XD

Arenanubs really blow my mind quite often with how little they actually seem to care about SPvP through their actions alone. Say and claim many things … but do they actually do these things?

“Until it’s ready” I suppose, lawl.

why yes, i would like someone with a knack for finding bugs and exploits to work on QA. it’s kinda what QA is meant to do.

BrunoBRS is absolutely right. In the latest SOTG (state of the game, a show on the GW2Guru youtube channel) the producer specifically said that they have the numbers of a cast of top players and are in regular communication with them. They also talk at length to people who come up with good suggestions on the forums from what he said.

He also said that they had spoken about a public beta, not directly related to your question but there’s a link. Half the community would welcome the chance to try out the next patch and give feedback, but the other half only wanted knew stuff. To my mind I would say that the people that want to try the new patch should be able to go ahead and do it in controlled testing areas and if you don’t want to you don’t have to, but that’s a possibility. So there’s another feedback route.

I suppose the answer is that they are already doing something similar to what you suggest. It is likely to come more to the forefront as tournaments start to become more regular

jonnis.2946:

BrunoBRS is absolutely right. In the latest SOTG (state of the game, a show on the GW2Guru youtube channel) the producer specifically said that they have the numbers of a cast of top players and are in regular communication with them. They also talk at length to people who come up with good suggestions on the forums from what he said.

He also said that they had spoken about a public beta, not directly related to your question but there’s a link. Half the community would welcome the chance to try out the next patch and give feedback, but the other half only wanted knew stuff. To my mind I would say that the people that want to try the new patch should be able to go ahead and do it in controlled testing areas and if you don’t want to you don’t have to, but that’s a possibility. So there’s another feedback route.

I suppose the answer is that they are already doing something similar to what you suggest. It is likely to come more to the forefront as tournaments start to become more regular

i personally like the idea that one of the guests gave: show us a beta release note so we can comment and provide feedback on it before it goes live.

BrunoBRS.5178:

i personally like the idea that one of the guests gave: show us a beta release note so we can comment and provide feedback on it before it goes live.

Totally with you on that one. It would at least be a start to getting to know the opinions of the community better. It’ll take resources and time to set up the open Beta servers for stuff like this, but thats a quick option where they can just poll that sort of stuff. Even if they were just to send a message out about a change to Rangers say to everyone who has the Champion Hunter achievement, or something similar. It would limit the feedback to people who have hopefully got half decent knowledge of the profession and would allow them to look objectively at it. It still has the same problems that everyone is biased to wanting to make their class better, but it would be a great first step

BrunoBRS.5178:

Jesiah.2457:

They did! They brought in the “top player” Powerr who exploited every bug available in the game along with his team to make his way to the top of QP leaderboards!

Months of exploiting block bug and what else they could get their hands on in order to make their way to the top. And now he’s working as QUALITY ASSURANCE for Arenanet!! Doesn’t that give you a lot of hope that this game will go in the right direction?? XD

Arenanubs really blow my mind quite often with how little they actually seem to care about SPvP through their actions alone. Say and claim many things … but do they actually do these things?

“Until it’s ready” I suppose, lawl.

why yes, i would like someone with a knack for finding bugs and exploits to work on QA. it’s kinda what QA is meant to do.

That doesn’t mean that HE exclusively found the said bugs. You’re basically crediting him for finding these exploits with what you just said, and I’m most certain that is not the case. Your point, while valid if actually the truth, is unfortunately moot.

The whole point of what I said is that they hired “The best player” they could, who really only became “The best” due to exploits that were found in the game to help push himself up a literally grind-able QP ‘ladder’. This does NOT by any circumstances mean he actually FOUND the bugs. Rather, he learned about them and used them for profit, and then to our … benefit … he is now working QA.

I’d say I’m sorry for what I’m going to say, but it’s my opinion afterall, so I’m actually not. I just don’t find such a cheesy player who has to abuse obvious game-breaking exploits to “rise to the top” to be a quality hire.

To me, that just goes hand-in-hand with however many other poor decisions Arenanet has made. Such as releasing this game as if it were a finished product. Oh what’s that, you’re going to defend arenanet and quote developers from somewhere that “An MMO is never a finished product, it’s on-going and evolving yaddayaddayadda.” There’s an easily distinguishable line between a high quality, well refined product or a jankity kitten piece of crap that isn’t ready for the market, but was pushed out there anyway because money.

Edit: I guess it’s unfair for me to say GW2 is unfinished considering the PvE side of the game is actually quite well done, has a good polish to it, great storytelling and seems to be quite entertaining for many.

Unfortunately the PvP aspect of this “PvP Oriented game” (cough) doesn’t follow the same trend and hasn’t had near the amount of development that the PvE has had. So I’m going to refer back to the reason why the game / sPvP portion feels rushed.

Money.

Jesiah.2457:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Jesiah.2457:

They did! They brought in the “top player” Powerr who exploited every bug available in the game along with his team to make his way to the top of QP leaderboards!

Months of exploiting block bug and what else they could get their hands on in order to make their way to the top. And now he’s working as QUALITY ASSURANCE for Arenanet!! Doesn’t that give you a lot of hope that this game will go in the right direction?? XD

Arenanubs really blow my mind quite often with how little they actually seem to care about SPvP through their actions alone. Say and claim many things … but do they actually do these things?

“Until it’s ready” I suppose, lawl.

why yes, i would like someone with a knack for finding bugs and exploits to work on QA. it’s kinda what QA is meant to do.

That doesn’t mean that HE exclusively found the said bugs. You’re basically crediting him for finding these exploits with what you just said, and I’m most certain that is not the case. Your point, while valid if actually the truth, is unfortunately moot.

The whole point of what I said is that they hired “The best player” they could, who really only became “The best” due to exploits that were found in the game to help push himself up a literally grind-able QP ‘ladder’. This does NOT by any circumstances mean he actually FOUND the bugs. Rather, he learned about them and used them for profit, and then to our … benefit … he is now working QA.

I’d say I’m sorry for what I’m going to say, but it’s my opinion afterall, so I’m actually not. I just don’t find such a cheesy player who has to abuse obvious game-breaking exploits to “rise to the top” to be a quality hire.

To me, that just goes hand-in-hand with however many other poor decisions Arenanet has made. Such as releasing this game as if it were a finished product. Oh what’s that, you’re going to defend arenanet and quote developers from somewhere that “An MMO is never a finished product, it’s on-going and evolving yaddayaddayadda.” There’s an easily distinguishable line between a high quality, well refined product or a jankity kitten piece of crap that isn’t ready for the market, but was pushed out there anyway because money.

Edit: I guess it’s unfair for me to say GW2 is unfinished considering the PvE side of the game is actually quite well done, has a good polish to it, great storytelling and seems to be quite entertaining for many.

Unfortunately the PvP aspect of this “PvP Oriented game” (cough) doesn’t follow the same trend and hasn’t had near the amount of development that the PvE has had. So I’m going to refer back to the reason why the game / sPvP portion feels rushed.

Money.

well i don’t know the full story, but on his defense, it’s not like he was the only one with access to it, and yet…

i doubt ANet looked at the QP ladder, saw the first name and said “THIS GUY. LET’S HIRE HIM. NO QUESTIONS ASKED.” to think otherwise would be silly.

and it’s not like the QA guy has the final say on anything. he’s literally the guy that just keeps on playing beta builds so the devs can look at it and decide if it’s fine or not. he’s not the one that decides if dhuumfire needs a nerf or not, he’s the guy that keeps playing dhuumfire necros with different numbers so the devs can look at the footage, look at some spreadsheets, and then decide what to do (if anything) about the situation.

Last time I checked the last sotg was nothing but top players.
Anet listens to nothing but the top players, the top players don’t have issues all they do is whine when there build gets nerfed and switch to another build and continue dominance.

Let me ask you a question. Whens the last time anet listened to a low rank solo que’er and listened about his issues he’s finding with pvp?

Last time I checked the high ranked players aren’t flooding the boards with issues like matchmaking, solo que, hotjoins because they are the ones winning games over weak solo que/ weak matchmaking system, they have friends to party with, they are the ones farming newplayers in hotjoins.

uberkingkong.8041:

Last time I checked the last sotg was nothing but top players.
Anet listens to nothing but the top players, the top players don’t have issues all they do is whine when there build gets nerfed and switch to another build and continue dominance.

Let me ask you a question. Whens the last time anet listened to a low rank solo que’er and listened about his issues he’s finding with pvp?

Last time I checked the high ranked players aren’t flooding the boards with issues like matchmaking, solo que, hotjoins because they are the ones winning games over weak solo que/ weak matchmaking system, they have friends to party with, they are the ones farming newplayers in hotjoins.

more or less

it only seems that arenanet actively communicates with people in the top 100 on the leaderboards who don’t face most of the issues in spvp/tpvp

Ive seen some episodes and i remember that grouch guy showed his rating once and he were among top 50 either US or EU so these are defiantly top dogs. But i wouldn’t mind if they were taking pve into consideration too or making a new show for pve if these are dedicated to pvp. Because pvp players are a minority and pve players have to suffer from nerfs done in pvp, ranger who had a hard time finding a team before got it worse now last patch.

tom.7468:

Ive seen some episodes and i remember that grouch guy showed his rating once and he were among top 50 either US or EU so these are defiantly top dogs. But i wouldn’t mind if they were taking pve into consideration too or making a new show for pve if these are dedicated to pvp. Because pvp players are a minority and pve players have to suffer from nerfs done in pvp, ranger who had a hard time finding a team before got it worse now last patch.

PvP has a SotG because the community went after it, and because it just has more to discuss.

gw2guru has mentioned that if people want an SotG that covers any other game mode, then speak out.

Most other games release patch notes ahead of time and the community discusses it en masse and then there are scheduled mass test days where 100s if not 1000s of players test the changes and give feedback. Obviously having a handful of “top players” and devs testing everything is much better lol. So many of you people want to be told whats best for you by so called experts its pathectic.

Allie Murdock.8152:

It might not seem this way sometimes, but we definitely hear you.

But why is this like, the sole Anet response in the sPvP thread section

Hearing =/= taking action. Too slow a response in balancing has lead a lot of people to leave spvp and subsequently WvW.

It’s bad enough that we have to deal with the fail downed state/underwater fighting/ broken mechanics/ lack of group synergy due to removal of healers.

But waiting months for a fix? Necro downed state health? How long did that take to fix? Long enough to lose more customers, I’m sure.

Here is to ‘hearing’.

If we were PvE’rs crying, this would be fixed within the month.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Well, the devs could sit around and reply to all your threads, or they could implement some of the changes you’re hoping for. We really appreciate all of the feedback, and that’s why I come on here to remind you that we’re still here.

We just gave you guys a huge balance patch, so does it make sense that in the time leading up to it and a while afterwards (monitoring PvP meta-game as it develops as well as other areas of the game) we can’t be as present on the forums?

Also, we can’t just make instant changes when an issue of balance comes up. One change can affect the entire game, so we have to be very calculated. Knee-jerk reactions can actually do more harm than good, so we have to be choosy about how we handle these things. This has mostly been covered when we say things like “we don’t want to whack-a-mole balance.”

That’s not to say that we’re not going to make changes. There is just a lot to game development than meets the eye.

You guys have been so incredibly helpful with your constructive feedback, so keep it coming!

Following that logic the PvE threads shouldn’t be littered with their responses.

It’s not that we don’t appreciate you guys working on implementing updates, it’s the total lack of communication and leaving us in the dark that’s bothersome. Even if you’re doing the right thing (working on updates), what difference will it make if they are implemented to a dead section of the game.

Allie thanks for posting.

milo.6942:

Allie thanks for posting.

And this, especially since I know I sound like a kitten

I’ve said this before, but I think you guys should really consider some kind of “has been seen by a dev” system here. A special check mark, maybe. Just something to let us know that someone from ArenaNet has read our comments, even if they’re too busy to comment.

It would be incredibly mollifying to have a way of knowing that a developer had actually read my suggestion. Since it’s claimed that they’re reading these things anyway, why not just have a little check mark that they can click to let me know I’ve been heard? That wouldn’t take more than two seconds out of their busy developer days, and it would make us rant far less. Everyone wins!

Achilles.2197:

If we were PvE’rs crying, this would be fixed within the month.

Not in matter of balance.

If that would be the case, you should see like 9 months of updates reverted in PvE and 10 times more skill/trait splits.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Interesting idea, RoyHarmon.5398, but would that really satisfy the hope to have your suggestions implemented? Wouldn’t it then turn into “devs hit the check mark but they didn’t understand or implement” kind of thing? Maybe there is a middle ground, though.

Yeah, I feel like a checkmark system may not offer enough explanation. Some people would take it as “my suggestion will definitely make it verbatim into a hotfix tonight” when really all the dev wanted to say was “interesting, I’ll try to remember to ask someone about it the next time we bump into each other.” The checkmark would be doing more harm than good, in that case.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Interesting idea, RoyHarmon.5398, but would that really satisfy the hope to have your suggestions implemented? Wouldn’t it then turn into “devs hit the check mark but they didn’t understand or implement” kind of thing? Maybe there is a middle ground, though.

For threads that deal with bugs/glitches and similar problems it would definitely be helpful, since you’re kinda left in the dark if the thread does not get any replies.
It’s impossible to know if the thread has been seen by a moderator or developer, or if it slipped to page four with rocket speed.

Allie Murdock.8152:

Interesting idea, RoyHarmon.5398, but would that really satisfy the hope to have your suggestions implemented? Wouldn’t it then turn into “devs hit the check mark but they didn’t understand or implement” kind of thing? Maybe there is a middle ground, though.

Oh, it’s not about my hopes of getting anything implemented. I’m just suggesting a way to make me feel like I’ve been heard, even if you don’t agree with me. And if you don’t agree, then you must have your reasons. I’m fine with that.

The only thing that would really bother me is feeling like nobody’s listening. I don’t care if you implement my ideas as long as you’re aware of them. If you’ve read my comments, the seed has been planted, and maybe you’ll consider it later on when circumstances allow it.

Case in point: I feel much better now that you’ve responded to my post. I know that someone at ArenaNet is aware of this idea and might consider it further. Maybe you’ll even mention it to others who have ideas for better implementations than anything I could come up with. Then it might get pressed down, shaken up, etkittenil it finally gets implemented at some point in the future. Who knows? But at least I feel empowered by my ability to give feedback that gets noticed. Now I just let it simmer.

Side note: The best version I’ve come up with so far is a “This thread was last viewed by ArenaNet at: [timestamp]” kind of thing.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Allie Murdock.8152:

Interesting idea, RoyHarmon.5398, but would that really satisfy the hope to have your suggestions implemented? Wouldn’t it then turn into “devs hit the check mark but they didn’t understand or implement” kind of thing? Maybe there is a middle ground, though.

Yeah, I feel like a checkmark system may not offer enough explanation. Some people would take it as “my suggestion will definitely make it verbatim into a hotfix tonight” when really all the dev wanted to say was “interesting, I’ll try to remember to ask someone about it the next time we bump into each other.” The checkmark would be doing more harm than good, in that case.

Yeah, the check mark was one idea I had that involved the developer ticking a box to indicate that the thread had been noticed, but it wouldn’t require the time investment of a reply. I agree that the meaning would have to be clear.

For the record, all I would ever hope for is the “interesting, I’ll try to remember to ask someone about it the next time we bump into each other” part.

Maybe just a feature like on other forums where you can see who is viewing a post/sub section at the time, but let it only show Red tagged people. Atleast people can maybe see you are visiting the forum(if they are browsing it at that time :P).
Hope that made any sort of sense