Guild Wars 2

Forum bug lulululul anet 2k16

Krysard.1364:

Question is, are condis unbalanced?

Class imbalance is created by the design of individual classes, not overarching mechanics.

Trying to pin imbalance on a single mechanic whos effectiveness varies wildly from class to class defies logic.

Crinn.7864:

Krysard.1364:

Question is, are condis unbalanced?

Class imbalance is created by the design of individual classes, not overarching mechanics.

Trying to pin imbalance on a single mechanic whos effectiveness varies wildly from class to class defies logic.

Well, this is the point i was trying to show o/

Astralporing.1957:

Be careful. I’m pretty sure someone will take the first part of your post and treat it seriously.

If they do I will weep for their poor, naive souls.

I have an idea, how about a condi cap,? Let’s say something like 25.

Xillllix.3485:

I have an idea, how about a condi cap,? Let’s say something like 25.

This cap is proly only realistically achieved rn in a nec vs nec environtment(and even then only sometimes), in which the one that gets 25+ bleeds dies, be it 25 or 40, so not sure its going to make any difference

Krysard.1364:

Xillllix.3485:

I have an idea, how about a condi cap,? Let’s say something like 25.

This cap is proly only realistically achieved rn in a nec vs nec environtment(and even then only sometimes), in which the one that gets 25+ bleeds dies, be it 25 or 40, so not sure its going to make any difference

It will make a difference in outnumbered fights.

The biggest difference would be in WvW: Bringing the condi cap back there would “make WvW great again”.

Xillllix.3485:

Krysard.1364:

Xillllix.3485:

I have an idea, how about a condi cap,? Let’s say something like 25.

This cap is proly only realistically achieved rn in a nec vs nec environtment(and even then only sometimes), in which the one that gets 25+ bleeds dies, be it 25 or 40, so not sure its going to make any difference

It will make a difference in outnumbered fights.

The biggest difference would be in WvW: Bringing the condi cap back there would “make WvW great again”.

That’s not the biggest problem facing WvW

Condi application and condi removal should be nerfed across the board. This way coniditons can be intelligently applied rather than just spammed out. It also gives play the person removing the conditions as they will just have to use their skills to remove the condis at the right time. More skill, more fun.

The same should be done to damage application and damage avoidance. And to boon application. Boons should be applied intelligently when needed. Prot should be put up when a burst in incoming, regen put up when low on health, stability applied when an opponent switches to a hammer. They should not be permanently applied or pulsing. Again this adds play and counter play and enjoys the fun and skill of the game.

Damage application should be reduced across the board whilst reducing damage avoidance so that hitting skills is more reliable and people can respond to getting hit by skills.

Lordrosicky.5813:

The same should be done to damage application and damage avoidance. And to boon application. Boons should be applied intelligently when needed. Prot should be put up when a burst in incoming, regen put up when low on health, stability applied when an opponent switches to a hammer. They should not be permanently applied or pulsing. Again this adds play and counter play and enjoys the fun and skill of the game.

Yup pretty much. Especially on the boon side, they are just applied far too easily and far too frequently.

Crinn.7864:

Archon.6480:

Sigmoid.7082:

The reason people dont like conditions is because they have to build around it as a defence.

It is much easier to apply than direct damage,

This is false. Condi applying abilities can be blocked and evaded just as power ones are.

Yes, but power ones are easier to avoid. So what I said is true. Condi usually comes in big AoE circles, Instant effects, etc.

Archon.6480:

Yes, but power ones are easier to avoid. So what I said is true. Condi usually comes in big AoE circles, Instant effects, etc.

Because you know arc divider, air overload, DH traps, vault, and thunder clap totally aren’t all big AoEs.

Oh wait.

List of big condi AoEs seen on common builds
Necro: marks, scepter #2, Shroud #4 and #5
Warrior longbow F1
.

For every instant condi attack, I can point you to a instant power attack. For every condi AoE, I can point you to a power AoE.

The problem is, as some other people said as well, that too many DIFFERENT condis can be applied in a short period of time or even instantly. Most condi cleanses only remove something like 2 condis.

HeadCrowned.6834:

The problem is, as some other people said as well, that too many DIFFERENT condis can be applied in a short period of time or even instantly. Most condi cleanses only remove something like 2 condis.

Yah..that’s the problem…..

HeadCrowned.6834:

The problem is, as some other people said as well, that too many DIFFERENT condis can be applied in a short period of time or even instantly. Most condi cleanses only remove something like 2 condis.

If people could cleanse every condi applied to them, then condi builds would be completely worthless.

Crinn.7864:

HeadCrowned.6834:

The problem is, as some other people said as well, that too many DIFFERENT condis can be applied in a short period of time or even instantly. Most condi cleanses only remove something like 2 condis.

If people could cleanse every condi applied to them, then condi builds would be completely worthless.

Your biased rebuttal only reinforce our argument.

By assuming what people here are after you openly admit how broken the condi system is in this game, the key word here is rate of application

You acknowledge the fact that some specs can apply condis too fast and too efficiently, the tactical component of the fight is removed, these condi specs acquire an unfair advantage.

We all agree that condition damage is a pillar of the MMO genre, a main component along side direct dmg,nobody here is asking to remove condi dmg..that’s insane.

There used to be pro and cons for condition and direct dmg, with the first, you only need one stat and can use the rest to build a tanky character; an obvious advantage but…you needed time to kill the target.

That weakness has been now removed, people can use tanky condi specs that effectively kill target as fast power specs, relatively speaking.

In PvP condi builds are not innately tankier than power builds. The tankiest builds are actually power based, not condi. So according to your argumentation, both types of builds should be able to deal the same amount of dmg, right? And power builds still have much better burst potential.
And because there is a lot more defense and healing in the game, you need more dmg than in the past, to kill stuff. It is not possible to kill many builds slowly, because that dmg would just get outhealed.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

In PvP condi builds are not innately tankier than power builds. The tankiest builds are actually power based, not condi. So according to your argumentation, both types of builds should be able to deal the same amount of dmg, right? And power builds still have much better burst potential.
And because there is a lot more defense and healing in the game, you need more dmg than in the past, to kill stuff. It is not possible to kill many builds slowly, because that dmg would just get outhealed.

No inherently slow kill, rather more tactical, atm some condi specs can deliver too much with not much thought behind it. The rate of application in that case is too high for the dmg and sustain of the build used.

The same can be said about some power builds (personally i would call all meta builds braindead in some aspects – its just a result of the HoT powercreep).
I agree that there are some condi specs that should get nerfed, but there are lots of other things that should get nerfed too imo. And it is always a matter of specific builds/traits/skills and not a general power vs condi issue.

Crinn.7864:

HeadCrowned.6834:

The problem is, as some other people said as well, that too many DIFFERENT condis can be applied in a short period of time or even instantly. Most condi cleanses only remove something like 2 condis.

If people could cleanse every condi applied to them, then condi builds would be completely worthless.

I’m not saying that people should be able to cleanse all conditions on them every time. I would argue for reducing the amount of different condis certain traits/weapon skills/utilities can apply. This would also increase the usefulness of certain runes and sigils that for example increase the duration of one condi (such as poison), and enhance specialization into certain builds, with more build diversity as a result. It would be better for the PVP game if we have more specific roles for specific builds, and less can-do-it-alls as we have now.

Why ppl is still so dumb to pretend that power somewhat is more skillful/marginated than condi after discusing this over and over and over and refuting every argument over and over and over.

“Rate of application” is necessarily followed by “having to stack.” Direct damage is instantaneous, no stacking required – even if all goes right and you get a lot of conditions to apply they have to be stacked in order to do enough damage to kill an opponent which gives plenty of counter-play through cleanses and heals (which can remove conditions as well in most cases). In order for conditions to be viable they have to have the ability to be applied fast and efficiently just like their direct damage counterparts which do damage on every hit (fast and efficient).

Furthermore, power builds do commensurate amounts of damage with just their power stat, which can substantially augmented with critical hits and ferocity. Conditions have no other way of augmenting their damage (expertise, but that’s over a longer application time) and are further mitigated by cleanses, which has no counterpart/counter-play with reference to taking direct damage. Since conditions builds still have to hit, they can be dodged, blocked, etc. like direct damage too. Still, conditions need a way to keep up pressure or they are altogether worthless and no builds would be able to use them as an alternate form of killing an opponent.

I am not sure how up to date it is, but there is a condition damage calculator – http://gw2.hazno.net – which will help understand how condition damage works.
For example, my main is a condi-shatter Mesmer that runs staff/scepter-torch and has a condition damage rating of 1526. According to the calculator my damage would be as follows:

1 stack of bleeding 119 damage per second
Burning 710 per second
1 stack of confusion 179 per second
Poison 233
1 stack of torment 85 (approximately – calculator doesn’t add torment)
Total: 1326 per second, per stack – all able to be cleansed, healed and resisted

Now take into consideration that they have to hit, but they can also be cleansed, thus having to be reapplied, which would start the whole process over again. So, as you can see, it’s not necessarily easy to get stacks and high amounts of, or optimal damage. So, in order for it to be an alternate way of killing an opponent, it must have similar ability to be efficient and as applicable as direct damage. Furthermore, you only get 1 heal against direct damage which can also be used to mitigate condition damage (again, possibly even additional cleansing). Getting critical hits (sometimes multiple) from a direct damage user is far more devastating, and immediately so, than getting conditions applied.

Crinn.7864:

Cecilia.5179:

Lol, there are some classes that already cleanse condi so fast that I can’t get any bleed to stick to them on a build that applies bleed with almost every hit.
But then there are some classes that are just utterly helpless against condi spam.
I think a happy middle ground needs to be found to make the situation less polarizing.

Why?

Some class being strong against and some classes being weak against, is what makes build crafting interesting. It forces players to make pro/con choices. Equalizing clearing capabilities just takes that much depth out of the game.

Rock, Paper, Scissors has no mechanical depth.

Cleanse does not need to be equal. It needs to be less polar. A poor Revenant will never beat my condi builds if I play decently. A Dragonhunter will rarely die to my condis if he plays decently. A Daredevil in a team fight will never see a condi on his bar for more than 5 seconds as long as somebody is attacking in his general location.
Classes that cannot handle condis and classes that cannot be killed by condis are both bad.