Guild Wars 2

There are many problems with saying you can balance this game around 5 v 5. These are just a simple few that come to mind.
1. First problem, there are 8 different classes. You can only guess what the team of 5 is running for classes.

2. Second problem, using 3 shatter mesmers, guardian, and thief for roaming can easily destroy almost any other team comp that exists.

3. Third problem, besides there being 8 different classes, they have multiple build types(bunker, power/crit, mixtures of toughness/power/vitality, etc).

4. Fourth problem, some classes are literally better than other classes at doing the same thing. Thief burst (done 100% correctly) > Necromancer burst (done 100% correctly). Guardian holding point > engi holding point.

5. Fifth problem ……

6. Sixth problem, Profit???

**Guardian bunker will always be the better choice for TPVP, although sometimes Ele. Buff engi in a certain area or balance things out so engineers have a chance at doing the same thing, they are built for doing the same thing, but don’t do it at a higher level like guardian/ele can do.

**Thief/Warrior burst >; Necromancer for single target DPS easily.

**Mesmer >; Necromancer for AOE damage burst and overall AOE damage as
well(too much condi removal on good teams makes Necro really weak in TPVP)

**Ranger has like no place in TPVP, fix that???

**Never ever saw a DPS build of engi in TPVP yet

I think it makes more sense to balance bunkers vs bunkers, dps vs dps, mixtures vs mixtures(if possible, which means switching around trait lines/minor/major traits).
What that means is, balance all bunker classes to be able to perform for similar time periods, perform the same way using different abilities. Obviously each class has a different way of operating, but just analyze say a bunker engi vs guardian vs ele. See which one is lacking at performing or doing something and try to make them line up more with what a “bunker” should be able to do.

Same goes for DPS vs DPS classes. Thief/warrior/ele can easily out perform a necromancer for straight on DPS single target. Mesmer can out perform necromancer for AOE easily. So it is really hard to define where a Necromancer really fits in, considering so much condition removal in the Meta.

I will add more when I think of everything I want to put on here, but that’s what I feel makes the most sense.

I think you’ve gotten confused with the principle of balancing around 5v5.

1- lock weapons, trait, utilities.
2- run a ladder
3- look how meta evolve in high ladder matches
4- balance
5- …
6- profit

Rolyate.6753:

I think you’ve gotten confused with the principle of balancing around 5v5.

How about you explain to me the principle of balancing around 5v5 then?

To create balance is not an easy task, if not even impossible. In our world, balance is what usually happens out in the nature. The wolf easily kills the rabbit because he needs to eat, but the rabbit can easily also run away and hide, to survive.

Survival of the fittest. The class you play, do the best you can make out of it.

I play a Guardian, I think people call me a Bunker Guardian, I can’t really die against anyone, but I can’t kill anyone either, at least if not my opponent decides to run out of combat, but I will die eventually if he has a friend with him.

Farzo.8410:

To create balance is not an easy task, if not even impossible. In our world, balance is what usually happens out in the nature. The wolf easily kills the rabbit because he needs to eat, but the rabbit can easily also run away and hide, to survive.

Survival of the fittest. The class you play, do the best you can make out of it.

I play a Guardian, I think people call me a Bunker Guardian, I can’t really die against anyone, but I can’t kill anyone either, at least if not my opponent decides to run out of combat, but I will die eventually if he has a friend with him.

That certainly is looking at ONE ASPECT of it. But that’s at the micro level, the type of thinking this game needs to balance it is at the macro level.

Shukran.4851:

1- lock weapons, trait, utilities.
2- run a ladder
3- look how meta evolve in high ladder matches
4- balance
5- …
6- profit

Someone that understands whats needed…. I wonder if Anet understands this, they have to perhaps there is a reason for avoiding a ladder system. Maybe the ‘top’ pvpers told them they like the farm based systems and Anet is listening to those bad farmers instead of collected data and looking at other MMO pvp models that worked well….. like the GvG model in GW1 and WoW arena model.

Who knows.

Balancing the game 5vs5 is a joke imo there are too many possible combinations with 8 classes and they all need to be balanced to call a game “5vs5 balanced”.
You need to balance the game based on 1vs1 principle ( or get near as possible to that goal) and when you do that game is balanced in every possible scenario ( 5vs5,2vs2,3vs3 etc) and in every possible game mode.
Balancing this game on 1vs1 principle is even more important here than in other MMOs because there is no holy trinity implemented and you need to rely more on yourself than on other people ( most fights there is no one to heal you, soak up damage for you or remove debuffs for you).

It would make more sense to make a game where there was more strategy options and classes had some focus… eventually the devs will abandon their silly promises or be replaced by the first new game with a mediocre or better PvP/RvR system…. (granted, that probably is enough time to make some money!)

Has ANet ever said they balance around 5v5? They balance the class roles around the game mode – conquest. How do you balance a bunker vs a roamer, a roamer vs a glass, support vs dps, AoE vs single-target, etc. The game isn’t about 1v1, it’s about holding points, and there is relatively little time spent in a match where there is a true 5v5.

some comps even actively avoid a 5v5 battle ^.^ and tries to spread the other team thin and win 2v2 battles and 3v3 battles. right now the balance is pretty good but the skill cap is very high. If you play some one like hman on his war suddenly warriors look op but in reality he is just really good at using his warrior. same with many of the top players. fiveguage is actually a brilliant example of this. engis are pretty much unheard of in paids except for him. he bunkers a point better than most guardian bunkers can, and its amazing to watch (annoying to play against though :P <3 you five guage)

Akumetsu.8591:

some comps even actively avoid a 5v5 battle ^.^ and tries to spread the other team thin and win 2v2 battles and 3v3 battles. right now the balance is pretty good but the skill cap is very high. If you play some one like hman on his war suddenly warriors look op but in reality he is just really good at using his warrior. same with many of the top players. fiveguage is actually a brilliant example of this. engis are pretty much unheard of in paids except for him. he bunkers a point better than most guardian bunkers can, and its amazing to watch (annoying to play against though :P <3 you five guage)

Qt Hman, on Anvil Rock, has never beaten me in a 1 vs 1(my necromancer aka Presidents Bushes). Warriors are not OP when you have the correct build to counter them.

I am not advocating balancing bunkers vs dps. I said bunkers vs bunkers and how they perform. It’s very obvious guardians and ele’s are way better than bunker necromancers and bunker engi. So many knockbacks and knockdowns/cc that necro and engi have access to, but not at as many as ele and guardian. Things like that are annoying, what if I want to tank on my necromancer? I can’t really because I don’t have all that blocking, all them pushbacks, knockdowns, those bubbles that make people fall down when they touch it, etc. That clearly shows how the meta is skewed towards guardian/ele being point defense. I like playing necro, necromancers have really good tanking abilities and can live for awhile, but not like guardian/ele, NOT EVEN CLOSE. So they need to buff necro/engi for tanks and give us different moves or different weapons that are more defensive. That is just one example and I will not type them all but there are a ton.

the game isn’t based around 1v1 what he does well is positioning and getting the sick ganks. not having 1v1 match where you know exactly where he is and can see all of his animations.

You can balance around 5v5. You can balance around whatever you decide to as a developer(theoretically). Balance is about what classes can bring something to the table, and all classes having something to contribute. All the professions don’t have to be good at everything, they just have to be good at x while profession y can counter x.
Im not making a case that the current game is balanced, but you certainly cam balance around 5v5.

Jason Segel.2908:

Rolyate.6753:

I think you’ve gotten confused with the principle of balancing around 5v5.

How about you explain to me the principle of balancing around 5v5 then?

The principle of balancing around a team, means that not all classes/weapons/builds have to be equally good at all things.

It means you can have classes/weapons/builds that are stronger at support, bunker or roaming, and weaker at dueling.

A game balanced entirely around 1v1 would require most of the classes/weapons/builds in the game to be good at dueling.

Whereas balancing for team play, means you can have a variety of classes/weapons/builds that are good for a variety of things. So you can have a support character that can’t defeat a duelist 1v1, but a support+damager can beat 2 duelists 2v2.

Or a full team of mixed roles that cannot beat 5 duelists in individual 1v1 combat, but they can win a tPVP match against 5 duelists.

This is what it means to balance a game for team play.
I’m not saying that ANet is succeeding at this, but it’s certainly something they should aim for. GW2 doesnt have enough 1v1 mechanics to make a good dueling game. It’s no Dark Souls or Street Fighter.

Jason Segel.2908:

Rolyate.6753:

I think you’ve gotten confused with the principle of balancing around 5v5.

How about you explain to me the principle of balancing around 5v5 then?

If you just try play tPvP (real one 5v5 team match) you gona figure it by yourself.

@Anet:

Please we need sPvP and tPvP forum, there is alot ppl who wanna discuss about tPvP without tPvP expirience.

ingame solution:

Lock tPvP for rank <15.

Wooyadeen.6491:

Jason Segel.2908:

Rolyate.6753:

I think you’ve gotten confused with the principle of balancing around 5v5.

How about you explain to me the principle of balancing around 5v5 then?

If you just try play tPvP (real one 5v5 team match) you gona figure it by yourself.

@Anet:

Please we need sPvP and tPvP forum, there is alot ppl who wanna discuss about tPvP without tPvP expirience.

ingame solution:

Lock tPvP for rank <15.

Like usual, another person who tries to marginalize my experience because they don’t want to hear anyone else’s opinions or listen to facts.

99% games won in tournies as necromancer, 88% games played as necromancer overall.

You didn’t explain anything, afraid of others ridiculing your amazing-ness?

/sarcasm.

Rieselle.5079:

Jason Segel.2908:

Rolyate.6753:

I think you’ve gotten confused with the principle of balancing around 5v5.

How about you explain to me the principle of balancing around 5v5 then?

The principle of balancing around a team, means that not all classes/weapons/builds have to be equally good at all things.

It means you can have classes/weapons/builds that are stronger at support, bunker or roaming, and weaker at dueling.

A game balanced entirely around 1v1 would require most of the classes/weapons/builds in the game to be good at dueling.

Whereas balancing for team play, means you can have a variety of classes/weapons/builds that are good for a variety of things. So you can have a support character that can’t defeat a duelist 1v1, but a support+damager can beat 2 duelists 2v2.

Or a full team of mixed roles that cannot beat 5 duelists in individual 1v1 combat, but they can win a tPVP match against 5 duelists.

This is what it means to balance a game for team play.
I’m not saying that ANet is succeeding at this, but it’s certainly something they should aim for. GW2 doesnt have enough 1v1 mechanics to make a good dueling game. It’s no Dark Souls or Street Fighter.

Care to explain what happens when 3 dps ele’s, a guardian, and a thief roamer are fighting against 3 dps necromancers, a guardian, and a thief roamer?

Here’s a hint, team with ele’s will win everytime.

Balance =/=

Jason Segel.2908:

Care to explain what happens when 3 dps ele’s, a guardian, and a thief roamer are fighting against 3 dps necromancers, a guardian, and a thief roamer?

Here’s a hint, team with ele’s will win everytime.

Balance =/=

i hope you are joking with this example.
so if u have 3 ele dps u should have the same potential as 3 necro?
now you should understand why u only have 154 tourney won and u have no clue about balancing.

Shukran.4851:

Jason Segel.2908:

Care to explain what happens when 3 dps ele’s, a guardian, and a thief roamer are fighting against 3 dps necromancers, a guardian, and a thief roamer?

Here’s a hint, team with ele’s will win everytime.

Balance =/=

i hope you are joking with this example.
so if u have 3 ele dps u should have the same potential as 3 necro?
now you should understand why u only have 154 tourney won and u have no clue about balancing.

Considering I play with a 1 or 2 random pugs who don’t use microphones or don’t know too much, I would consider a 68% win ratio pretty decent.

I hope you are joking when you say classes are balanced when I threw a very obvious one in your face.

Maybe you should play the game more and see

I also love how you proved my own point. DPS isnt balanced vs DPS. Therefore you cannot reliably balance for 5 v 5. Bunkers are not balanced vs other bunkers.

I love how little sense you make, struggling to come up with an answer, and instead marginalizing what I say and trying to put me down. You can’t even come up with a logical argument apparently of how I am wrong.

Khyras.8021:

Balancing the game 5vs5 is a joke imo there are too many possible combinations with 8 classes and they all need to be balanced to call a game “5vs5 balanced”.
You need to balance the game based on 1vs1 principle ( or get near as possible to that goal) and when you do that game is balanced in every possible scenario ( 5vs5,2vs2,3vs3 etc) and in every possible game mode.
Balancing this game on 1vs1 principle is even more important here than in other MMOs because there is no holy trinity implemented and you need to rely more on yourself than on other people ( most fights there is no one to heal you, soak up damage for you or remove debuffs for you).

That’s just laughably wrong. 1v1 fights are completely different from team fights. In 1v1 a support build would be completely useless, while in a 5v5 it could be really strong.
Or take an example of something that is strong 1v1, but not worth the slot in 5v5: Moa. This skill is a ridiculously strong ability 1v1, but you would never take it if you were planning on a team fight. Why? Because the other elite (which is not nearly as strong 1v1) is so much better for a team fight.
Or take a more aoe-focused class. If they were to be balanced 1v1 they would either need to have their aoe be as strong as other classes’ single target (if they are squishy), or they would need to be significantly more durable than other dps builds. Either way they become extremely powerful in group fights since they can take on their natural counter (st burst builds) due to the 1v1 balance aspect.

1v1 balance is completely different from 2v2, 3v3, 5v5 or 20v20. The skills that make a difference at those team sizes can easily be worthless in 1v1 or have to be massively buffed to make a class viable for 1v1 and thus screwing up the team fights.

For a game that primarily revolves around team fights (5v5, 8v8), that is where the balance must lie, not in 1v1.

Vayra.3290:

Khyras.8021:

Balancing the game 5vs5 is a joke imo there are too many possible combinations with 8 classes and they all need to be balanced to call a game “5vs5 balanced”.
You need to balance the game based on 1vs1 principle ( or get near as possible to that goal) and when you do that game is balanced in every possible scenario ( 5vs5,2vs2,3vs3 etc) and in every possible game mode.
Balancing this game on 1vs1 principle is even more important here than in other MMOs because there is no holy trinity implemented and you need to rely more on yourself than on other people ( most fights there is no one to heal you, soak up damage for you or remove debuffs for you).

That’s just laughably wrong. 1v1 fights are completely different from team fights. In 1v1 a support build would be completely useless, while in a 5v5 it could be really strong.
Or take an example of something that is strong 1v1, but not worth the slot in 5v5: Moa. This skill is a ridiculously strong ability 1v1, but you would never take it if you were planning on a team fight. Why? Because the other elite (which is not nearly as strong 1v1) is so much better for a team fight.
Or take a more aoe-focused class. If they were to be balanced 1v1 they would either need to have their aoe be as strong as other classes’ single target (if they are squishy), or they would need to be significantly more durable than other dps builds. Either way they become extremely powerful in group fights since they can take on their natural counter (st burst builds) due to the 1v1 balance aspect.

1v1 balance is completely different from 2v2, 3v3, 5v5 or 20v20. The skills that make a difference at those team sizes can easily be worthless in 1v1 or have to be massively buffed to make a class viable for 1v1 and thus screwing up the team fights.

For a game that primarily revolves around team fights (5v5, 8v8), that is where the balance must lie, not in 1v1.

Agreed.

Rieselle.5079:

Jason Segel.2908:

Rolyate.6753:

I think you’ve gotten confused with the principle of balancing around 5v5.

How about you explain to me the principle of balancing around 5v5 then?

The principle of balancing around a team, means that not all classes/weapons/builds have to be equally good at all things.

It means you can have classes/weapons/builds that are stronger at support, bunker or roaming, and weaker at dueling.

A game balanced entirely around 1v1 would require most of the classes/weapons/builds in the game to be good at dueling.

Whereas balancing for team play, means you can have a variety of classes/weapons/builds that are good for a variety of things. So you can have a support character that can’t defeat a duelist 1v1, but a support+damager can beat 2 duelists 2v2.

Or a full team of mixed roles that cannot beat 5 duelists in individual 1v1 combat, but they can win a tPVP match against 5 duelists.

This is what it means to balance a game for team play.
I’m not saying that ANet is succeeding at this, but it’s certainly something they should aim for. GW2 doesnt have enough 1v1 mechanics to make a good dueling game. It’s no Dark Souls or Street Fighter.

No.

Jason Segel.2908:

Care to explain what happens when 3 dps ele’s, a guardian, and a thief roamer are fighting against 3 dps necromancers, a guardian, and a thief roamer?

Here’s a hint, team with ele’s will win everytime.

Balance =/=

No :P

(But since I’m not stooping to your level, here’s a more serious answer.)

I don’t see how your example is relevant.

Hypothetically, perhaps your 3 Necro team will build for boon removal and conditions instead of raw damage. Since Ele’s are fairly boon-reliant, this could mean that the Necro team wins.

But so what? What does any of this prove? I imagine your point is that, Necros are inferior to Ele’s in DPS.

But the point of “balancing for a team” means not all classes need to be equal in all roles. It’s ok for Necros to be inferior to Ele’s in the DPS role, just like it’s ok for some other class to be inferior to Guardians in a bunker role.

Also, I was explaining why and how ANet should balance around teams. Just because the current balance has problems, doesnt disprove the concept itself.

Areas for improvement:
- There needs to be more viable roles and more viable role-combinations.
Eg. Your own example, what if the Necros were condition damage & boon removal? (call it CD&BR). So we might have a Bunker, Roamer, 3xCD&BR team vs. a Bunker, Roamer, 3xDPS team.

And of course we’d want more viable role-combinations. Like zero bunkers, or all-roamers of different types, or whatever. This is a map/game mode issue as well as a balance one.

- Class balance needs to be improved so that more classes can be viable at more roles. Currently certain classes excel in many roles, whereas some other classes seem to be inferior in pretty much everything.

So yeah, just because the current balance still has a ways to go, doesnt mean that the concept of balancing around a team is invalid.

Nobody suggests that an RTS faction needs to have unit types balanced against each other 1v1, (or a dozen other analogies from a dozen other team game genres), so it’s silly to suggest that GW2 is somehow different.

Jason Segel.2908:

Wooyadeen.6491:

Jason Segel.2908:

Rolyate.6753:

I think you’ve gotten confused with the principle of balancing around 5v5.

How about you explain to me the principle of balancing around 5v5 then?

If you just try play tPvP (real one 5v5 team match) you gona figure it by yourself.

@Anet:

Please we need sPvP and tPvP forum, there is alot ppl who wanna discuss about tPvP without tPvP expirience.

ingame solution:

Lock tPvP for rank <15.

Like usual, another person who tries to marginalize my experience because they don’t want to hear anyone else’s opinions or listen to facts.

99% games won in tournies as necromancer, 88% games played as necromancer overall.

You didn’t explain anything, afraid of others ridiculing your amazing-ness?

/sarcasm.

Ohh i see now, 200 Tournament played…. so expirienced…. Thats around 5-6 ranks earned in tPvP.

In my book (with your stats), you r ready to join tPvP for the first time. Not to talk about it, but to see it for the first time.

Jason Segel.2908:

Care to explain what happens when 3 dps ele’s, a guardian, and a thief roamer are fighting against 3 dps necromancers, a guardian, and a thief roamer?

Here’s a hint, team with ele’s will win everytime.

Balance =/=

It depends on a lot more things , atm you can not realize that (lack of tpvp expirience).

Rieselle.5079:

Jason Segel.2908:

Care to explain what happens when 3 dps ele’s, a guardian, and a thief roamer are fighting against 3 dps necromancers, a guardian, and a thief roamer?

Here’s a hint, team with ele’s will win everytime.

Balance =/=

No :P

(But since I’m not stooping to your level, here’s a more serious answer.)

I don’t see how your example is relevant.

Hypothetically, perhaps your 3 Necro team will build for boon removal and conditions instead of raw damage. Since Ele’s are fairly boon-reliant, this could mean that the Necro team wins.

But so what? What does any of this prove? I imagine your point is that, Necros are inferior to Ele’s in DPS.

But the point of “balancing for a team” means not all classes need to be equal in all roles. It’s ok for Necros to be inferior to Ele’s in the DPS role, just like it’s ok for some other class to be inferior to Guardians in a bunker role.

Also, I was explaining why and how ANet should balance around teams. Just because the current balance has problems, doesnt disprove the concept itself.

Areas for improvement:
- There needs to be more viable roles and more viable role-combinations.
Eg. Your own example, what if the Necros were condition damage & boon removal? (call it CD&BR). So we might have a Bunker, Roamer, 3xCD&BR team vs. a Bunker, Roamer, 3xDPS team.

And of course we’d want more viable role-combinations. Like zero bunkers, or all-roamers of different types, or whatever. This is a map/game mode issue as well as a balance one.

- Class balance needs to be improved so that more classes can be viable at more roles. Currently certain classes excel in many roles, whereas some other classes seem to be inferior in pretty much everything.

---

So yeah, just because the current balance still has a ways to go, doesnt mean that the concept of balancing around a team is invalid.

Nobody suggests that an RTS faction needs to have unit types balanced against each other 1v1, (or a dozen other analogies from a dozen other team game genres), so it’s silly to suggest that GW2 is somehow different.

Let me give you a real example I did the other day. Used 5 minions with 10% chance to remove boons, was using my boon removal and boon converting set-up. The ele I 1 vs 1’ed had boons the entire fight, permanent fury I specifically remember. So how about no, boon removal is under powered compared to how fast you can re-gain boons. Don’t even get me started on how useless condition necromancers become in paid tpvp. Might as well swap out the necro for a mesmer or something else honestly.

Wooyadeen.6491:

Jason Segel.2908:

Wooyadeen.6491:

Jason Segel.2908:

Rolyate.6753:

I think you’ve gotten confused with the principle of balancing around 5v5.

How about you explain to me the principle of balancing around 5v5 then?

If you just try play tPvP (real one 5v5 team match) you gona figure it by yourself.

@Anet:

Please we need sPvP and tPvP forum, there is alot ppl who wanna discuss about tPvP without tPvP expirience.

ingame solution:

Lock tPvP for rank <15.

Like usual, another person who tries to marginalize my experience because they don’t want to hear anyone else’s opinions or listen to facts.

99% games won in tournies as necromancer, 88% games played as necromancer overall.

You didn’t explain anything, afraid of others ridiculing your amazing-ness?

/sarcasm.

Ohh i see now, 200 Tournament played…. so expirienced…. Thats around 5-6 ranks earned in tPvP.

In my book (with your stats), you r ready to join tPvP for the first time. Not to talk about it, but to see it for the first time.

Jason Segel.2908:

Care to explain what happens when 3 dps ele’s, a guardian, and a thief roamer are fighting against 3 dps necromancers, a guardian, and a thief roamer?

Here’s a hint, team with ele’s will win everytime.

Balance =/=

It depends on a lot more things , atm you can not realize that (lack of tpvp expirience).

I will paste this again since you literally are resorting to being a 7 year old kid who just tries to be-little people (why I have no idea but you are extremely un-helpful and are not providing anything that helps at all)

"""Like usual, another person who tries to marginalize my experience because they don’t want to hear anyone else’s opinions or listen to facts.

99% games won in tournies as necromancer, 88% games played as necromancer overall.

You didn’t explain anything, afraid of others ridiculing your amazing-ness?

/sarcasm."""

So don’t flame me on my own thread, just because you can’t come up with more than “It depends on a lot more things , atm you can not realize that (lack of tpvp expirience).” doesn’t mean you have to rage at me for how you lack the necessary brain power to form intelligent/thoughtful/good insight on pvp issues.

Like kid, you have to be a kid to have this low of a level of reasoning. Do yourself a favor and stop, you aren’t proving anything and your dedication to trying to troll me is 0/10 at best.

And I hope you realize that 153 tournaments won = 3 maps I won on = 153 * 3 = 459 games played vs my spvp games played of 700 something. + the rounds where We made it to the last map would be like another 100 + games so 549 tpvp games vs my spvp games of 700. I guess I don’t have any expereicne yet you tell me nothing of yours and just troll me.

0/10 again gg.

Jason Segel.2908:

Akumetsu.8591:

some comps even actively avoid a 5v5 battle ^.^ and tries to spread the other team thin and win 2v2 battles and 3v3 battles. right now the balance is pretty good but the skill cap is very high. If you play some one like hman on his war suddenly warriors look op but in reality he is just really good at using his warrior. same with many of the top players. fiveguage is actually a brilliant example of this. engis are pretty much unheard of in paids except for him. he bunkers a point better than most guardian bunkers can, and its amazing to watch (annoying to play against though :P <3 you five guage)

Qt Hman, on Anvil Rock, has never beaten me in a 1 vs 1(my necromancer aka Presidents Bushes). Warriors are not OP when you have the correct build to counter them.

That’s the main reason imo why it shouldn’t be balance towards 1v1, build wars. All the balance in the world doesn’t mean kitten if you build in a certain way to completely destroy a class or build type, it isn’t entertaining to watch

At least in a 5v5 setting if one person hard counters you or your team mate, you got other to back you up,

Vayra.3290:

Khyras.8021:

Balancing the game 5vs5 is a joke imo there are too many possible combinations with 8 classes and they all need to be balanced to call a game “5vs5 balanced”.
You need to balance the game based on 1vs1 principle ( or get near as possible to that goal) and when you do that game is balanced in every possible scenario ( 5vs5,2vs2,3vs3 etc) and in every possible game mode.
Balancing this game on 1vs1 principle is even more important here than in other MMOs because there is no holy trinity implemented and you need to rely more on yourself than on other people ( most fights there is no one to heal you, soak up damage for you or remove debuffs for you).

That’s just laughably wrong. 1v1 fights are completely different from team fights. In 1v1 a support build would be completely useless, while in a 5v5 it could be really strong.
Or take an example of something that is strong 1v1, but not worth the slot in 5v5: Moa. This skill is a ridiculously strong ability 1v1, but you would never take it if you were planning on a team fight. Why? Because the other elite (which is not nearly as strong 1v1) is so much better for a team fight.
Or take a more aoe-focused class. If they were to be balanced 1v1 they would either need to have their aoe be as strong as other classes’ single target (if they are squishy), or they would need to be significantly more durable than other dps builds. Either way they become extremely powerful in group fights since they can take on their natural counter (st burst builds) due to the 1v1 balance aspect.

1v1 balance is completely different from 2v2, 3v3, 5v5 or 20v20. The skills that make a difference at those team sizes can easily be worthless in 1v1 or have to be massively buffed to make a class viable for 1v1 and thus screwing up the team fights.

For a game that primarily revolves around team fights (5v5, 8v8), that is where the balance must lie, not in 1v1.

There are AoE focused classes? All classes have ( or should have ) AoE options and specs and single target options and specs there are no AoE focused classes afaik.
What support builds are you talking about? Game is dominated by bunkers and bursters.Give me one build that is commonly used atm and is support only ( meaning he cant burst and cant survive for a longer period of time when focused like bunkers can but provides excellent support for his team mates).
Your example of Moa vs other mesmer elite is a joke, “Moa is strong but the other one is stronger” its like asking a person would you rather be shot in the head or hanged.Moa is far from unusable in team fights as far as i know.Can someone in your team dispel MoA for you as to make MoA unusable in group fight?You MoA an enemy then your team bursts him down id say that is pretty strong.
There are far more variables to balance in a 5vs5 with 8 classes available to call the game 5vs5 balanced, then there are in1vs1 balanced game, and people who say 5vs5 balance or balance around game mode is the way to go make me laugh .

@Khyras Condition necromancer is the support build you’re talking about.
1v1 has never been part of any competitive MMo pvp to this date, why? Because it reduces the amount of variety of build. Why would anyone play a support build in 1v1?
Why would anyone play a profession with a lot of control and substained damage but lackluster burst damage? People have the misconception that everything must be balanced around 1v1 in order to balance 5v5 which is completly untrue.

X profession/build weaknesses covered by Y and Y weaknesses covered by Z and so on is what pvp is all about. It creates a high variety of team composition and strategies in pvp. With that said, the more I think about it, the more I believe that the real problem is how the 3 current map/objectives work atm; you either protect a base (guardian), or ninja steal a base (Mesmer/thief), while the other players zerg a random base to make sure to create as much as possible 1v1 situation with the 3 top duelist in the game. It is sad, and things must change.

Poplolita.2638:

X profession/build weaknesses covered by Y and Y weaknesses covered by Z and so on is what pvp is all about. It creates a high variety of team composition

That’s poopy balance imo. In many other’s opinion too. Doesn’t make it right or wrong, but it is just as valid an opinion. Also the majority of players, if you haven’t noticed from the checkered past of “team based” mmo pvp (balance and gameplay) don’t feel like going though the hand-holding and circle jerking required nor have a desire to wade through the environment of overinflated egos from tweens for “team based” PvP to be the end-all-be-all.

Braxxus.2904:

That’s poopy balance imo. In many other’s opinion too. Doesn’t make it right or wrong, but it is just as valid an opinion. Also the majority of players, if you haven’t noticed from the checkered past of “team based” mmo pvp (balance and gameplay) don’t feel like going though the hand-holding and circle jerking required nor have a desire to wade through the environment of overinflated egos from tweens for “team based” PvP to be the end-all-be-all.

So what you’re saying is that you don’t want to play with a team and you want it to be 1v1 all day long. Believe it or not, other people like playing as a team and being able to create builds that complement each other, rather than everyone being as self sufficient as possible.

Balancing towards 1v1 or even 2v2 means any sort of group fight is gonna be a clusterkitten, which is where the game is at right now.

If you balance towards group fighting, a good deal of the problems in the smaller fights are actually reduced as well.

Angriff.1935:

So what you’re saying is that you don’t want to play with a team and you want it to be 1v1 all day long.

No, I’m saying I would like the option. I’ve had teams. I’m still probably a bit bitter about my team, except for 1 member, leaving for planetside2 until something worthwhile comes out (we’re discussing forge as another possibility). The prospect of going through the terrible terrible time of wading through the hordes of angry narcissistic “kids” (mentally) to form another team is akin to the idea of removing my own eyes with a coffee spoon.

Angriff.1935:

Believe it or not, other people like playing as a team and being able to create builds that complement each other, rather than everyone being as self sufficient as possible.

Believe it or not I like playing as a team. I also however don’t like relying on other people. I prefer the option, and with 1v1 balance this is possible. With terrible rock>paper>scissors balance it’s crap and has been crap forever (imo). Some people, like yourself disagree, and that’s cool. I’m merely expressing an opposing opinion, not claiming it to be fact. You feel one way where you like to have balance revolving around having a group on-call that synergizes well. I feel another way where I don’t want to have balanced play require me to wait until I have other people to “carry” the shortcomings of whatever I choose to play. It drives me nuts.

I prefer the idea of solid balance at the solo level where the option for group synergy is there by combining the strength and the abilities each player has at their disposal to work together WITHOUT being completely kittened when they are roaming solo or in a small group (2-3). Granted I’m an FPS player at heart above all other gameplay styles, even though I do enjoy the idea of them, so that probably has alot to do with where I’m coming from. With 1v1 balance I can go in with my team and work together but also have the ability if kitten hits the fan to, through the practice I put in, go 12/1 kdr and bring back a win from what looked like defeat moments before.

Angriff.1935:

Balancing towards 1v1 or even 2v2 means any sort of group fight is gonna be a clusterkitten, which is where the game is at right now.

No, the game is a clusterkitten because of gameplay issues within the game itself, not because of balance at 1v1 or 2v2 level, because we don’t have balance at 1v1 or 2v2 level. We have balance at a team level for a conquest design, which is not remotely the same thing as balance for 1v1 or 2v2. The issues you’re seeing are because of design issues in both the game-mode and mechanical disparity of classes. If it WAS balanced at 1v1 or 2v2 then your point would be valid and we would be discussing ways to fix it, but since it’s not balanced in that manner…. /shrug

Angriff.1935:

If you balance towards group fighting, a good deal of the problems in the smaller fights are actually reduced as well.

No, because that’s where we are currently more than we are at a 1v1 level. Also balancing towards group fighting leads to the same crap we get in every other game that has modeled it’s “balance” around the “group”. Complete crap for the player that gets caught in a smaller fight with the “wrong class”. Oh you’re about to fight a frost mage, and you’re a warrior? Pffft, GG get kited unless the skill disparity is so large it could fill the voids in space because you should have learned to roll-your-class better noob. It’s terrible balance.

• Edit: I realize that yes there needs to be balance concerned with “top tier gameplay”. Of course. However you have to honestly ask yourself, how much of the population is actually going to be there? 1%? 5%? The vast vast vast vast vast vast (get the idea) majority of players are going to be playing in non-top-tier areas. WvW (which is immensely more fun than “stand in the circle better than the other guy” that the conquest mode of TPvP is imo) attracts a HUGE number of players compared to the top 1% of TPvP. It also has far more entertaining videos/streams. IMO.

Free tourney’s and hotjoins (they really should get rid of 8v8 and just keep them all 5v5 for hotjoins as well) will also have a far far far larger number of people in them compared to the elite 1%. Yes the top needs balance, but without people actually having FUN and enjoyable gameplay who cares? Again, looking at an FPS I know, how many FPS players are actually competing in the world tournaments? But there’s a crapload of people playing and trying to improve, forming clans, running pub tourney’s, etc etc. Because the game is fun and BALANCED at all levels. Solo player or clan X’s super squad. Here it doesn’t exist at all.

Khyras.8021:

Vayra.3290:

Khyras.8021:

Balancing the game 5vs5 is a joke imo there are too many possible combinations with 8 classes and they all need to be balanced to call a game “5vs5 balanced”.
You need to balance the game based on 1vs1 principle ( or get near as possible to that goal) and when you do that game is balanced in every possible scenario ( 5vs5,2vs2,3vs3 etc) and in every possible game mode.
Balancing this game on 1vs1 principle is even more important here than in other MMOs because there is no holy trinity implemented and you need to rely more on yourself than on other people ( most fights there is no one to heal you, soak up damage for you or remove debuffs for you).

That’s just laughably wrong. 1v1 fights are completely different from team fights. In 1v1 a support build would be completely useless, while in a 5v5 it could be really strong.
Or take an example of something that is strong 1v1, but not worth the slot in 5v5: Moa. This skill is a ridiculously strong ability 1v1, but you would never take it if you were planning on a team fight. Why? Because the other elite (which is not nearly as strong 1v1) is so much better for a team fight.
Or take a more aoe-focused class. If they were to be balanced 1v1 they would either need to have their aoe be as strong as other classes’ single target (if they are squishy), or they would need to be significantly more durable than other dps builds. Either way they become extremely powerful in group fights since they can take on their natural counter (st burst builds) due to the 1v1 balance aspect.

1v1 balance is completely different from 2v2, 3v3, 5v5 or 20v20. The skills that make a difference at those team sizes can easily be worthless in 1v1 or have to be massively buffed to make a class viable for 1v1 and thus screwing up the team fights.

For a game that primarily revolves around team fights (5v5, 8v8), that is where the balance must lie, not in 1v1.

There are AoE focused classes? All classes have ( or should have ) AoE options and specs and single target options and specs there are no AoE focused classes afaik.
What support builds are you talking about? Game is dominated by bunkers and bursters.Give me one build that is commonly used atm and is support only ( meaning he cant burst and cant survive for a longer period of time when focused like bunkers can but provides excellent support for his team mates).
Your example of Moa vs other mesmer elite is a joke, “Moa is strong but the other one is stronger” its like asking a person would you rather be shot in the head or hanged.Moa is far from unusable in team fights as far as i know.Can someone in your team dispel MoA for you as to make MoA unusable in group fight?You MoA an enemy then your team bursts him down id say that is pretty strong.
There are far more variables to balance in a 5vs5 with 8 classes available to call the game 5vs5 balanced, then there are in1vs1 balanced game, and people who say 5vs5 balance or balance around game mode is the way to go make me laugh .

I’m not going to write an essay on game balance to explain how you are wrong. Suffice it to say that if ANet balanced for 1v1 tPvP balance would be far, far worse than it is now.

@braxxus
I’m affraid it will be impossible to add the option to balance around 1v1 in a team based game such as Guild wars 2… relying on our team is what pvp in a MMo should be all about. Even more in a game with combo. Again, 1v1 removes way to much options and build viability. It becomes mostly a dps race and who can pop their defensive cooldowns first and let not forget line of sight. In other words… bunker with a lot of surviviability… and glass canon with good mobility. That’s exactly what we want to avoid!

Jason Segel.2908:

Wooyadeen.6491:

Jason Segel.2908:

Rolyate.6753:

I think you’ve gotten confused with the principle of balancing around 5v5.

How about you explain to me the principle of balancing around 5v5 then?

If you just try play tPvP (real one 5v5 team match) you gona figure it by yourself.

@Anet:

Please we need sPvP and tPvP forum, there is alot ppl who wanna discuss about tPvP without tPvP expirience.

ingame solution:

Lock tPvP for rank <15.

Like usual, another person who tries to marginalize my experience because they don’t want to hear anyone else’s opinions or listen to facts.

99% games won in tournies as necromancer, 88% games played as necromancer overall.

You didn’t explain anything, afraid of others ridiculing your amazing-ness?

/sarcasm.

http://youtu.be/hByqoWsnz-I

State of the game with J.Sharp

It may answer question as to why they balance the way they do.
Also I would suggest you read each class’s design philosphy and why each class is the way it is.

Poplolita.2638:

Solori.6025:

Jason Segel.2908:

Wooyadeen.6491:

Jason Segel.2908:

Rolyate.6753:

I think you’ve gotten confused with the principle of balancing around 5v5.

How about you explain to me the principle of balancing around 5v5 then?

If you just try play tPvP (real one 5v5 team match) you gona figure it by yourself.

@Anet:

Please we need sPvP and tPvP forum, there is alot ppl who wanna discuss about tPvP without tPvP expirience.

ingame solution:

Lock tPvP for rank <15.

Like usual, another person who tries to marginalize my experience because they don’t want to hear anyone else’s opinions or listen to facts.

99% games won in tournies as necromancer, 88% games played as necromancer overall.

You didn’t explain anything, afraid of others ridiculing your amazing-ness?

/sarcasm.

http://youtu.be/hByqoWsnz-I

State of the game with J.Sharp

It may answer question as to why they balance the way they do.
Also I would suggest you read each class’s design philosphy and why each class is the way it is.

52minutes seem a bit long. Could you post a summary about this video please? :S

-- do i look like I have all the time of day to do work for you cause you dont want to watch a vid or let it play in the background ? --

Either you want to know or you dont
-_-

Solori.6025:

Poplolita.2638:

Solori.6025:

Jason Segel.2908:

Wooyadeen.6491:

Jason Segel.2908:

Rolyate.6753:

I think you’ve gotten confused with the principle of balancing around 5v5.

How about you explain to me the principle of balancing around 5v5 then?

If you just try play tPvP (real one 5v5 team match) you gona figure it by yourself.

@Anet:

Please we need sPvP and tPvP forum, there is alot ppl who wanna discuss about tPvP without tPvP expirience.

ingame solution:

Lock tPvP for rank <15.

Like usual, another person who tries to marginalize my experience because they don’t want to hear anyone else’s opinions or listen to facts.

99% games won in tournies as necromancer, 88% games played as necromancer overall.

You didn’t explain anything, afraid of others ridiculing your amazing-ness?

/sarcasm.

http://youtu.be/hByqoWsnz-I

State of the game with J.Sharp

It may answer question as to why they balance the way they do.
Also I would suggest you read each class’s design philosphy and why each class is the way it is.

52minutes seem a bit long. Could you post a summary about this video please? :S

-- do i look like I have all the time of day to do work for you cause you dont want to watch a vid or let it play in the background ? --

Either you want to know or you dont
-_-

I can’t watch it due to limited bandwidth usage

Problem with using that video as an argument is that it assumes the developer’s intentions, philosophies and designs are perfect, while threads like these are arguing against such philosophies.

Poplolita.2638:

Solori.6025:

Poplolita.2638:

Solori.6025:

Jason Segel.2908:

Wooyadeen.6491:

Jason Segel.2908:

Rolyate.6753:

I think you’ve gotten confused with the principle of balancing around 5v5.

How about you explain to me the principle of balancing around 5v5 then?

If you just try play tPvP (real one 5v5 team match) you gona figure it by yourself.

@Anet:

Please we need sPvP and tPvP forum, there is alot ppl who wanna discuss about tPvP without tPvP expirience.

ingame solution:

Lock tPvP for rank <15.

Like usual, another person who tries to marginalize my experience because they don’t want to hear anyone else’s opinions or listen to facts.

99% games won in tournies as necromancer, 88% games played as necromancer overall.

You didn’t explain anything, afraid of others ridiculing your amazing-ness?

/sarcasm.

http://youtu.be/hByqoWsnz-I

State of the game with J.Sharp

It may answer question as to why they balance the way they do.
Also I would suggest you read each class’s design philosphy and why each class is the way it is.

52minutes seem a bit long. Could you post a summary about this video please? :S

-- do i look like I have all the time of day to do work for you cause you dont want to watch a vid or let it play in the background ? --

Either you want to know or you dont
-_-

I can’t watch it due to limited bandwidth usage

-_- ill do a summary when im off later tomorrow

…though i thought their was a transcript somewhere already :I

TwoBit.5903:

Problem with using that video as an argument is that it assumes the developer’s intentions, philosophies and designs are perfect, while threads like these are arguing against such philosophies.

Like I posted In another thread.
If you feel a classes design philosophy is flawed.

Re-write the class,(power organization, build variation, and philosophy)
Then do a side by side comparison of the new improvements to the class vs the old, and a comparison of the new classes viability to the other classes, as a way to check to see where a potential problem or a current problem that brings it to the level of overperformance. Then adjust the area(s) accordingly.

Run the changes through a data mine and some QA testers, then give A-Net the results..

Easy instant class fix.

Vayra.3290:

Khyras.8021:

Vayra.3290:

Khyras.8021:

Balancing the game 5vs5 is a joke imo there are too many possible combinations with 8 classes and they all need to be balanced to call a game “5vs5 balanced”.
You need to balance the game based on 1vs1 principle ( or get near as possible to that goal) and when you do that game is balanced in every possible scenario ( 5vs5,2vs2,3vs3 etc) and in every possible game mode.
Balancing this game on 1vs1 principle is even more important here than in other MMOs because there is no holy trinity implemented and you need to rely more on yourself than on other people ( most fights there is no one to heal you, soak up damage for you or remove debuffs for you).

That’s just laughably wrong. 1v1 fights are completely different from team fights. In 1v1 a support build would be completely useless, while in a 5v5 it could be really strong.
Or take an example of something that is strong 1v1, but not worth the slot in 5v5: Moa. This skill is a ridiculously strong ability 1v1, but you would never take it if you were planning on a team fight. Why? Because the other elite (which is not nearly as strong 1v1) is so much better for a team fight.
Or take a more aoe-focused class. If they were to be balanced 1v1 they would either need to have their aoe be as strong as other classes’ single target (if they are squishy), or they would need to be significantly more durable than other dps builds. Either way they become extremely powerful in group fights since they can take on their natural counter (st burst builds) due to the 1v1 balance aspect.

1v1 balance is completely different from 2v2, 3v3, 5v5 or 20v20. The skills that make a difference at those team sizes can easily be worthless in 1v1 or have to be massively buffed to make a class viable for 1v1 and thus screwing up the team fights.

For a game that primarily revolves around team fights (5v5, 8v8), that is where the balance must lie, not in 1v1.

There are AoE focused classes? All classes have ( or should have ) AoE options and specs and single target options and specs there are no AoE focused classes afaik.
What support builds are you talking about? Game is dominated by bunkers and bursters.Give me one build that is commonly used atm and is support only ( meaning he cant burst and cant survive for a longer period of time when focused like bunkers can but provides excellent support for his team mates).
Your example of Moa vs other mesmer elite is a joke, “Moa is strong but the other one is stronger” its like asking a person would you rather be shot in the head or hanged.Moa is far from unusable in team fights as far as i know.Can someone in your team dispel MoA for you as to make MoA unusable in group fight?You MoA an enemy then your team bursts him down id say that is pretty strong.
There are far more variables to balance in a 5vs5 with 8 classes available to call the game 5vs5 balanced, then there are in1vs1 balanced game, and people who say 5vs5 balance or balance around game mode is the way to go make me laugh .

I’m not going to write an essay on game balance to explain how you are wrong. Suffice it to say that if ANet balanced for 1v1 tPvP balance would be far, far worse than it is now.

So you are here just to read what everyone says, then offer NO helpful advice because “you are not going to take the time to explain how someone is wrong”

Instead of trying to focus on why everyone is wrong and you are right(probably not the case anyways because everyone is wrong at some point) why don’t you try being helpful.

Jason Segel.2908:

Vayra.3290:

Khyras.8021:

Vayra.3290:

Khyras.8021:

Balancing the game 5vs5 is a joke imo there are too many possible combinations with 8 classes and they all need to be balanced to call a game “5vs5 balanced”.
You need to balance the game based on 1vs1 principle ( or get near as possible to that goal) and when you do that game is balanced in every possible scenario ( 5vs5,2vs2,3vs3 etc) and in every possible game mode.
Balancing this game on 1vs1 principle is even more important here than in other MMOs because there is no holy trinity implemented and you need to rely more on yourself than on other people ( most fights there is no one to heal you, soak up damage for you or remove debuffs for you).

That’s just laughably wrong. 1v1 fights are completely different from team fights. In 1v1 a support build would be completely useless, while in a 5v5 it could be really strong.
Or take an example of something that is strong 1v1, but not worth the slot in 5v5: Moa. This skill is a ridiculously strong ability 1v1, but you would never take it if you were planning on a team fight. Why? Because the other elite (which is not nearly as strong 1v1) is so much better for a team fight.
Or take a more aoe-focused class. If they were to be balanced 1v1 they would either need to have their aoe be as strong as other classes’ single target (if they are squishy), or they would need to be significantly more durable than other dps builds. Either way they become extremely powerful in group fights since they can take on their natural counter (st burst builds) due to the 1v1 balance aspect.

1v1 balance is completely different from 2v2, 3v3, 5v5 or 20v20. The skills that make a difference at those team sizes can easily be worthless in 1v1 or have to be massively buffed to make a class viable for 1v1 and thus screwing up the team fights.

For a game that primarily revolves around team fights (5v5, 8v8), that is where the balance must lie, not in 1v1.

There are AoE focused classes? All classes have ( or should have ) AoE options and specs and single target options and specs there are no AoE focused classes afaik.
What support builds are you talking about? Game is dominated by bunkers and bursters.Give me one build that is commonly used atm and is support only ( meaning he cant burst and cant survive for a longer period of time when focused like bunkers can but provides excellent support for his team mates).
Your example of Moa vs other mesmer elite is a joke, “Moa is strong but the other one is stronger” its like asking a person would you rather be shot in the head or hanged.Moa is far from unusable in team fights as far as i know.Can someone in your team dispel MoA for you as to make MoA unusable in group fight?You MoA an enemy then your team bursts him down id say that is pretty strong.
There are far more variables to balance in a 5vs5 with 8 classes available to call the game 5vs5 balanced, then there are in1vs1 balanced game, and people who say 5vs5 balance or balance around game mode is the way to go make me laugh .

I’m not going to write an essay on game balance to explain how you are wrong. Suffice it to say that if ANet balanced for 1v1 tPvP balance would be far, far worse than it is now.

So you are here just to read what everyone says, then offer NO helpful advice because “you are not going to take the time to explain how someone is wrong”

Instead of trying to focus on why everyone is wrong and you are right(probably not the case anyways because everyone is wrong at some point) why don’t you try being helpful.

I already explained it once, he didn’t accept it. I could write a much more comprehensive explanation, but I’m fairly sure it will be dismissed anyway. I’m on vacation and have better things to do

Jason Segel.2908:

Vayra.3290:

Khyras.8021:

Vayra.3290:

Khyras.8021:

Balancing the game 5vs5 is a joke imo there are too many possible combinations with 8 classes and they all need to be balanced to call a game “5vs5 balanced”.
You need to balance the game based on 1vs1 principle ( or get near as possible to that goal) and when you do that game is balanced in every possible scenario ( 5vs5,2vs2,3vs3 etc) and in every possible game mode.
Balancing this game on 1vs1 principle is even more important here than in other MMOs because there is no holy trinity implemented and you need to rely more on yourself than on other people ( most fights there is no one to heal you, soak up damage for you or remove debuffs for you).

That’s just laughably wrong. 1v1 fights are completely different from team fights. In 1v1 a support build would be completely useless, while in a 5v5 it could be really strong.
Or take an example of something that is strong 1v1, but not worth the slot in 5v5: Moa. This skill is a ridiculously strong ability 1v1, but you would never take it if you were planning on a team fight. Why? Because the other elite (which is not nearly as strong 1v1) is so much better for a team fight.
Or take a more aoe-focused class. If they were to be balanced 1v1 they would either need to have their aoe be as strong as other classes’ single target (if they are squishy), or they would need to be significantly more durable than other dps builds. Either way they become extremely powerful in group fights since they can take on their natural counter (st burst builds) due to the 1v1 balance aspect.

1v1 balance is completely different from 2v2, 3v3, 5v5 or 20v20. The skills that make a difference at those team sizes can easily be worthless in 1v1 or have to be massively buffed to make a class viable for 1v1 and thus screwing up the team fights.

For a game that primarily revolves around team fights (5v5, 8v8), that is where the balance must lie, not in 1v1.

There are AoE focused classes? All classes have ( or should have ) AoE options and specs and single target options and specs there are no AoE focused classes afaik.
What support builds are you talking about? Game is dominated by bunkers and bursters.Give me one build that is commonly used atm and is support only ( meaning he cant burst and cant survive for a longer period of time when focused like bunkers can but provides excellent support for his team mates).
Your example of Moa vs other mesmer elite is a joke, “Moa is strong but the other one is stronger” its like asking a person would you rather be shot in the head or hanged.Moa is far from unusable in team fights as far as i know.Can someone in your team dispel MoA for you as to make MoA unusable in group fight?You MoA an enemy then your team bursts him down id say that is pretty strong.
There are far more variables to balance in a 5vs5 with 8 classes available to call the game 5vs5 balanced, then there are in1vs1 balanced game, and people who say 5vs5 balance or balance around game mode is the way to go make me laugh .

I’m not going to write an essay on game balance to explain how you are wrong. Suffice it to say that if ANet balanced for 1v1 tPvP balance would be far, far worse than it is now.

So you are here just to read what everyone says, then offer NO helpful advice because “you are not going to take the time to explain how someone is wrong”

Instead of trying to focus on why everyone is wrong and you are right(probably not the case anyways because everyone is wrong at some point) why don’t you try being helpful.

Sometime, I feel you should just stop posting…

Well here is why i think 1vs 1 balance is imperative.I may be wrong, but this is why i think.
Lets first make things very simple and assume there are only 2 classes in the game : mesmers and warriors.Now, to balance mesmer and warrior all you have to do is make sure that 1 class has no unfair advantage over the other, and that outcome of the fight is decided by skill and/or luck only.To do that you cannot, for example, give mesmer unremovable elite like MOA.Why? because it incapacitates warrior for 10 seconds which more than enough for burst mesmer to burn him down with warrior having no chance to defend himself.So, all you have to do is balance mesmers vs warriors skills, traits sigils etc.
Now lets move on to 5vs5 balance (very similar to what we have now imo).
You give mesmer MOA elite because, after all game is, or should be, 5vs5 balanced and there are other people to “save” you even if you get MOAd.What happens?
Example scenario: 5 mesmers vs 5 warriors, mesmers pop 3 clones each no warrior can find real target and they get MOAd and killed 1 by 1 like chickens.
So you, once again, need to find the way to balance that encounter, presumably by removing MOA elite and toning down that clone spam ( exactly what you need to do in 1vs1 balance).But it dont stop there you also need to test and balance every possible 5vs 5 scenario to be able to call the game 5vs5 balanced,for example:1 warrior 4 mesmers vs 5 mesmers, 2 warriors 3 mesmers vs 5 mesmers, 2 warriors 3 mesmers vs 2 warriors 3 mesmers etc list is endless.
This is why i view 5vs5 balance as an impossible thing to do even if there were only 2 classes in the game and there are 8 atm to work with.
Again, maybe i am wrong but this is my opinion.

how can u balance different core mechanics of the classes?? come on

Khyras.8021:

Well here is why i think 1vs 1 balance is imperative.I may be wrong, but this is why i think.
Lets first make things very simple and assume there are only 2 classes in the game : mesmers and warriors.Now, to balance mesmer and warrior all you have to do is make sure that 1 class has no unfair advantage over the other, and that outcome of the fight is decided by skill and/or luck only.To do that you cannot, for example, give mesmer unremovable elite like MOA.Why? because it incapacitates warrior for 10 seconds which more than enough for burst mesmer to burn him down with warrior having no chance to defend himself.So, all you have to do is balance mesmers vs warriors skills, traits sigils etc.
Now lets move on to 5vs5 balance (very similar to what we have now imo).
You give mesmer MOA elite because, after all game is, or should be, 5vs5 balanced and there are other people to “save” you even if you get MOAd.What happens?
Example scenario: 5 mesmers vs 5 warriors, mesmers pop 3 clones each no warrior can find real target and they get MOAd and killed 1 by 1 like chickens.
So you, once again, need to find the way to balance that encounter, presumably by removing MOA elite and toning down that clone spam ( exactly what you need to do in 1vs1 balance).But it dont stop there you also need to test and balance every possible 5vs 5 scenario to be able to call the game 5vs5 balanced,for example:1 warrior 4 mesmers vs 5 mesmers, 2 warriors 3 mesmers vs 5 mesmers, 2 warriors 3 mesmers vs 2 warriors 3 mesmers etc list is endless.
This is why i view 5vs5 balance as an impossible thing to do even if there were only 2 classes in the game and there are 8 atm to work with.
Again, maybe i am wrong but this is my opinion.

You are asking to reduce the amount of viable builds in a team based game with your analogy. You are asking people to play with cookie cutter build depending on what situation they are and this is not healthy for the game.

Cookie cutter like mesmers and thieves burst because they can get away with it and the rest bunker up to survive?

Shukran.4851:

how can u balance different core mechanics of the classes?? come on

To start with, you make sure no class has unfair advantage over the other and move on from there.