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Posted by: Permafrost.2695

Permafrost.2695

The only reason I have the one win is because I saved 8 people from mid via Search and Rescue. Take away those 40 points and I’m dying. I was a Legend last year via complete solo queue.

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Posted by: Vorch.2985

Vorch.2985

Git Gud. L2P. Learn to Carry. /sarcasm

J/k. I know what you’re feeling. I’ve actually gotten better this season after so many kitten defeats.

However, there is only so much one can carry. For instance, today, I played til i lost 20 matches to see something.

Reached 300: 7 matches
Reached <200: 5 Matches
AFK/Quitter: 4 Matches

Most matches I’m at the top 2 score wise. But when such a large amount of losses are UNPREVENTABLE, there’s a defeatism to the entire process.

The only way out is to team up. Other than that, you are boned. You can get better and better, but the moment you lose, it will snowball.

Here’s what people thought of GW1 when it first came out: http://tinyurl.com/bntcvyc
“A release is 7 days or less away or has just happened within the last 7 days…
These are the only two states you’ll find the world of Tyria.”

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Posted by: TheAngryDuckling.5481

TheAngryDuckling.5481

I’ve never experienced that. All the way up to diamond I never lost more that 3 in a row.

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Posted by: Crinn.7864

Crinn.7864

That’s not ELO hell, that’s Glicko hell.

Sanity is for the weak minded.
YouTube

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Posted by: Dariya.9380

Dariya.9380

1 win away from Diamond, then system decides to put me with the worst players ever… no words to describe it. On top of it, it puts with them again and again even if I try and wait it out. Solo que is terrible.

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Posted by: rwolf.9571

rwolf.9571

welcome to the weekend of terrible players.

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Posted by: morrolan.9608

morrolan.9608

1 win away from Diamond, then system decides to put me with the worst players ever… no words to describe it. On top of it, it puts with them again and again even if I try and wait it out. Solo que is terrible.

Try being emerald just 1 or 2 wins away from sapphire and have that happen every kittening time for over 7 days , every single kittening time.

Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro

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Posted by: Ponidis The Psycho.8612

Ponidis The Psycho.8612

The MMR hell exists and I will try to show it to you mathematically in a future post in a thread I opened recently.

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Posted by: Locuz.2651

Locuz.2651

The system is just absurdly bad. Anet devs are just trolling

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Posted by: Ryu Kaisus.1293

Ryu Kaisus.1293

The only reason I have the one win is because I saved 8 people from mid via Search and Rescue. Take away those 40 points and I’m dying. I was a Legend last year via complete solo queue.

I agree. I was Legend in Season 1 too and the same thing is happening to me. When i was in ruby matches were fine, but once i reached half of diamond division, i almost never win to conditions outside of me. I did everything possible to carry the games, but no deal…no matter how skilled i play. I was always in first place of the team in performance…but the team exploded against the enemy when they went 1v1 or team fights.

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Posted by: Hansen.3264

Hansen.3264

welcome to the weekend of terrible players.

Come on. Theres no bad players. Theres bad matchmaking.

Theres new players , low skilled that can practice and learn to play aginst other new players and have fun with it.
The matchmaking just dont set it up. You were once a ^bad^ player also= less skilled

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Posted by: Locuz.2651

Locuz.2651

Come on. Theres no bad players. Theres bad matchmaking.

Theres new players , low skilled that can practice and learn to play aginst other new players and have fun with it.
The matchmaking just dont set it up. You were once a ^bad^ player also= less skilled

The system judges new players as average MMR.
In games with real system devs the system judges new players as bottom tier mmr.

This is on off the main reasons this system is so terrible.

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Posted by: OnanDU.9528

OnanDU.9528

I know how much anet wanted me to quit the game indefinitely, and they finally gave me that extra push so I’ll jump on the bandwagon like everyone else!

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Posted by: fishball.7204

fishball.7204

The only reason I have the one win is because I saved 8 people from mid via Search and Rescue. Take away those 40 points and I’m dying. I was a Legend last year via complete solo queue.

I agree. I was Legend in Season 1 too and the same thing is happening to me. When i was in ruby matches were fine, but once i reached half of diamond division, i almost never win to conditions outside of me. I did everything possible to carry the games, but no deal…no matter how skilled i play. I was always in first place of the team in performance…but the team exploded against the enemy when they went 1v1 or team fights.

This. I went to T5 diamond then dropped a lot and lost a ton of games due to people playing warrior or thieves and just generally being bad.

Some games I played poorly and I could tell I lost it for the team but those were far and few with most of the losses just basically from comp or utter incompetence of team mates.

There’s really not much you can do when your team decides to queue with 4 mesmers and not swap as a solo queuer. RIP in pipperonis

FOR THE GREEEEEEEEEEEEN

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Posted by: Browrain.7346

Browrain.7346

It doesn’t exist.

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Posted by: Lexander.4579

Lexander.4579

do you dumb LoL kids even know what word “Elo” means?

Alex Shadowdagger – Thief – Blacktide

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

I’ve never experienced that. All the way up to diamond I never lost more that 3 in a row.

Yeah, the consequence of people getting stuck in MMR hell is other people riding the win tide to easy advance.

Edit: also, weekends are crazy, better to stay off pvp during that time.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

(edited by Astralporing.1957)

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Posted by: Phaeton.9582

Phaeton.9582

do you dumb LoL kids even know what word “Elo” means?

Electric Light Orchestra silly


Phaatonn, London UK

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Posted by: Vlad.1739

Vlad.1739

There is no such thing as MMR hell. I do not have factual evidence but I have anecdotal evidence based on my experience.

1) You play trash build res druid is a bad build. especially vs good players that can and will counter you if they have the right cool-downs
2) I got stuck near the end of ruby when I was about to get diamond I’ve lost only 4 games until t4 ruby. I knew I was destroying enemy team as I could win most 1v1 and 1v2 or 1v3 in emerald and less so in sapphire consistently. I got stuck t6 ruby for what I believe was longer than I should have due to bad luck.
3) I noticed I lost because bad team compositions. once you reach ruby unless you can still carry hard and be a one man army like before, builds start to matter. I realized I could not go in outnumbered fights and win without my team rotating all the time.
4) I have a positive win ratio: Thus i knew I would leave ruby eventually and I understood why I lost when I lost.
5) Do not blame the system even if it is flawed in spite of the system the people who deserve to rank up will rank up if they play enough.
6) If the game feels completely out of your control it means you do not have sufficient skill to carry which I have felt at several times also certain builds have the potential to swing games more than others. Your build amplifies a team but can not carry it.

Possible conclusions
Conclusion 1) Maybe You belong where you are.
Conclusion 2) Play a better build.
Conclusion 3) Your analysis skills are lacking and holding you back from improving at the game and seeing the truth behind your losses.
Conclusion 4) If you deserve to rank up you will be enough of a factor in your games to push wins.

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Posted by: baylock.1703

baylock.1703

How can ppl be so ego if you win it was bc of you carrying and if you loose its bc team? Lol maibe you loose so much bc you don’t play as team all of you complaining have you eaven for second toght maibe the problem is in you not the team? im just wondering like look statistic if you loose 9 games from 10 than its more likely thath you got garryed 1 game and rest were lost bc of you .. just saying math and yes its quite easy to loose teamfight in current meta and after it usealy wining team rolls over but there is still chance to comeback. Not sure who told it but way to healing starts from admitting that ur the problem.

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Posted by: Permafrost.2695

Permafrost.2695

1) You play trash build res druid is a bad build. especially vs good players that can and will counter you if they have the right cool-downs

This alone proves you have no clue how PvP works as you don’t have any grasp on Druid builds, let alone how overpowered SnR is in its current form.

As for using the term ELOHELL I know that’s not the technical term here, but that’s the standard nomenclature for this issue. And again, look at my screenshot. How many of those games even look remotely competitive? Even if I was worst player on the planet or the best player on the planet you cannot make up getting matched with and against those players. It is hilarious.

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Posted by: Sirbeaumerdier.3740

Sirbeaumerdier.3740

There is no such thing as MMR hell. I do not have factual evidence but I have anecdotal evidence based on my experience.

1) You play trash build res druid is a bad build. especially vs good players that can and will counter you if they have the right cool-downs
2) I got stuck near the end of ruby when I was about to get diamond I’ve lost only 4 games until t4 ruby. I knew I was destroying enemy team as I could win most 1v1 and 1v2 or 1v3 in emerald and less so in sapphire consistently. I got stuck t6 ruby for what I believe was longer than I should have due to bad luck.
3) I noticed I lost because bad team compositions. once you reach ruby unless you can still carry hard and be a one man army like before, builds start to matter. I realized I could not go in outnumbered fights and win without my team rotating all the time.
4) I have a positive win ratio: Thus i knew I would leave ruby eventually and I understood why I lost when I lost.
5) Do not blame the system even if it is flawed in spite of the system the people who deserve to rank up will rank up if they play enough.
6) If the game feels completely out of your control it means you do not have sufficient skill to carry which I have felt at several times also certain builds have the potential to swing games more than others. Your build amplifies a team but can not carry it.

Possible conclusions
Conclusion 1) Maybe You belong where you are.
Conclusion 2) Play a better build.
Conclusion 3) Your analysis skills are lacking and holding you back from improving at the game and seeing the truth behind your losses.
Conclusion 4) If you deserve to rank up you will be enough of a factor in your games to push wins.

This post is light on logic and heavy on ideology.

If you say you have no factual evidences (anecdotes are worth kitten to infer to the whole population) then why say there is no such thing?

Also, nearly all of your points are irrelevant or just not based on logic at all. Lets proceed to see how…

Regarding your point 1, most people stuck play meta builds as far as I know. So I’m really skeptical as to that being the problem.

Your point number 2 is not an argument at all. It merely sets your context, which is fine but really not belonging as a number 2.

Your point 3 actually give weight to the claims of many ppl complaining about the match making system. When you have poor MMR, you get poor/new players but your opponents are not picked with the same MMR range.

Your point 4 is the one with sound logic in it. Sadly you will proceed to cherry pick when you will formulate your “possible conclusions” despite what you allude to in your point #3.

Point #5 is where we leave logic to enter the realm of ideology. News flash for you, unless you believe that billions of people living in very poor conditions on the planet deserve what they get while us filthy rich westerners deserve not to you quickly understand that the world isn’t fair. A lot of people get what they do not “deserve” (based on meritocracy) and this game is no different. That doesn’t mean ppl should not try to stay positive and do their best (within the limit of what is available to them at any given moment ofc). But there is a margin between staying positive and flat out plucking your eyes and ears and proceed to imply ppl not making it are just bad and lying.

Point 6… IDK if you thought this one very long but it explains your list of possible conclusions being so small. I’ve said this a lot on the forum but it doesn’t seem to register in some ppl. You are 1/5 of your team. Expecting 1/5 of something consistently outweighting 4/5 makes no sense at all. It’s like expecting to outpaddle 4 ppl in your canoe who fight the direction you want to impose on your own. The most polite way I can qualify this is unrealistic. Therefore, the conclusion that says it HAS to be your lack of skill simply doesn’t stand one second when you aren’t invested with cse to the majority of the power in your hands.

Are you responsible for your team defeat? Yes. I’m part of it.

Is it your fault if you did what you had to do but it failed anyway? No.

The conclusion I get from a game where I had a meta build and have done my best in every way my 1/5 of power could is that a portion of the remaining 4/5 did not, or that the team we fought against were just plain stronger. But usually, it is not very hard to know which it was…

So, if this happens a lot to you were you are responsible but not guilty it might be something systemic that weights you down. Strangely, I do not see this possible conclusion on your list. IT’s just not possible apparently…

And seriously, can we please stop it with this insane BS that if you deserve to rank up you will be enough of a factor to make it happen?

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Posted by: Krysard.1364

Krysard.1364

I just want to point out that your s1 division doesnt mean shiet

M I L K B O I S

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Posted by: Vlad.1739

Vlad.1739

At first I was not going to bother responding to your critique but I believe there is some hope to get my point across so I posted. I will address you on a point by point basis

-Nobody has factual evidence on a scale to prove anything except someone who can data mine anet’s logs. What we can prove are only things based on our experiences in game.

-On meta builds: search and rescue druid as I briefly explained is not a build that can carry a team to force wins. resurrecting a bad player means hes going to die again faster than search and rescue gets used or you get countered while using search and rescue by good player. I will not go further in detail I am not writing a thesis on why res bot druid is bad. What I will say res bot druid not good because you get destroyed when outnumbered by competent players or in team fight if focused by ppl with ports. Resurrect druid will not make wins happen when you are behind. Where as a good Mesmer for example can make a win happen with a good portal play. A good elementalist on a team with no elementalist will increase the teams chance of winning if he can support mid and not let it get capped regardless of teammates deaths occurring the point stays decapped until it can be contested again into another fight. A druid not wasting utilities on SnR and not in clerics can force wins by being one of the best 1v1 builds thus forcing wins on side points and rotating in and out scoring points increasing likelihood your team wins.

-On point 3: People do not have low MMR for no reason. I will concede if it is true new players starting in low MMR and not some average number as bad design. Having low MMR means you do not meet the games expectations of you. You can get out of so called MMR hell in 1 of 2 ways. Team Q or play well enough to beat expectations unless someone can prove the expectation system is deeply flawed which I have yet to be shown. If a player can not do either then they will get stuck is that fair I think so is it fun no it is not and perhaps Anet should do something about it.

-On positive win ratios: This ties into being good enough to carry to some extent or not being dead weight to your team. If you are better than 50% of the population playing you should have more than 50% win ratio. Thus over time you will get needed wins to become a legend. if you are this good but not winning because of MMR system. You need to start performing above expectations in matches, score more points to be where you should, which is hopefully in a place where you are on the winning 50% of the population.

-It is pointless to keep blaming your team for losing under the current system. The system expects you to rise up out of the hellhole that is low ranks and be deciding factor in your team winning or to perform above expectations to get better teams.
-the world is not fair but in GW2 there is are underlying systems that generate what is perceived as unfair. Long time players do not have low MMR or negative win ratio for no good reason. So if you have low MMR you deserved it for not performing well enough. If MMR should be reset at new leagues is a different debate and maybe it should to make the game more fun for certain people. Unlike the world GW2 success is a much greater degree in the hands of an individual. As in playing builds with potential to swing games and make plays, performing better than expected, and gaining in skill.

-To address your points of deserving I will point out as much as I hate to Helseth is going to carry someone he found who believes he is skilled enough to rank up but hard done by the system on a brand new account (IE low MMR) while I will be the first to admit there are a few flaws in his methodology what it will at-least prove if you are good enough you will rank up because you deserve it and will earn it because you are a deciding factor in games and/or queuing with a good player is enough to rank up. On another point Helseth plays Mesmer a known good player and as I have stated before a good Mesmer can steal games. I am very sure He will succeed in ranking up his adopted player.

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Posted by: Fivedawgs.4267

Fivedawgs.4267

At first I was not going to bother responding to your critique but I believe there is some hope to get my point across so I posted. I will address you on a point by point basis

-Nobody has factual evidence on a scale to prove anything except someone who can data mine anet’s logs. What we can prove are only things based on our experiences in game.

-On meta builds: search and rescue druid as I briefly explained is not a build that can carry a team to force wins. resurrecting a bad player means hes going to die again faster than search and rescue gets used or you get countered while using search and rescue by good player. I will not go further in detail I am not writing a thesis on why res bot druid is bad. What I will say res bot druid not good because you get destroyed when outnumbered by competent players or in team fight if focused by ppl with ports. Resurrect druid will not make wins happen when you are behind. Where as a good Mesmer for example can make a win happen with a good portal play. A good elementalist on a team with no elementalist will increase the teams chance of winning if he can support mid and not let it get capped regardless of teammates deaths occurring the point stays decapped until it can be contested again into another fight. A druid not wasting utilities on SnR and not in clerics can force wins by being one of the best 1v1 builds thus forcing wins on side points and rotating in and out scoring points increasing likelihood your team wins.

-On point 3: People do not have low MMR for no reason. I will concede if it is true new players starting in low MMR and not some average number as bad design. Having low MMR means you do not meet the games expectations of you. You can get out of so called MMR hell in 1 of 2 ways. Team Q or play well enough to beat expectations unless someone can prove the expectation system is deeply flawed which I have yet to be shown. If a player can not do either then they will get stuck is that fair I think so is it fun no it is not and perhaps Anet should do something about it.

-On positive win ratios: This ties into being good enough to carry to some extent or not being dead weight to your team. If you are better than 50% of the population playing you should have more than 50% win ratio. Thus over time you will get needed wins to become a legend. if you are this good but not winning because of MMR system. You need to start performing above expectations in matches, score more points to be where you should, which is hopefully in a place where you are on the winning 50% of the population.

-It is pointless to keep blaming your team for losing under the current system. The system expects you to rise up out of the hellhole that is low ranks and be deciding factor in your team winning or to perform above expectations to get better teams.
-the world is not fair but in GW2 there is are underlying systems that generate what is perceived as unfair. Long time players do not have low MMR or negative win ratio for no good reason. So if you have low MMR you deserved it for not performing well enough. If MMR should be reset at new leagues is a different debate and maybe it should to make the game more fun for certain people. Unlike the world GW2 success is a much greater degree in the hands of an individual. As in playing builds with potential to swing games and make plays, performing better than expected, and gaining in skill.

-To address your points of deserving I will point out as much as I hate to Helseth is going to carry someone he found who believes he is skilled enough to rank up but hard done by the system on a brand new account (IE low MMR) while I will be the first to admit there are a few flaws in his methodology what it will at-least prove if you are good enough you will rank up because you deserve it and will earn it because you are a deciding factor in games and/or queuing with a good player is enough to rank up. On another point Helseth plays Mesmer a known good player and as I have stated before a good Mesmer can steal games. I am very sure He will succeed in ranking up his adopted player.

Nice point but there is such a thing as elo hell. One person can’t carry 4 bads players, you just can’t unless his opponent team is full of bads as well. Which is very unlikely in this meta. And as everyone as pointed, druids are meta. So kitten might explain why your anecdotal experience differs from the OP. But flat out saying there is no such thing as MMR hell is Def wrong and untrue.

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Posted by: Agemnon.4608

Agemnon.4608

I will not go further in detail I am not writing a thesis on why res bot druid is bad. What I will say res bot druid not good because you get destroyed when outnumbered by competent players or in team fight if focused by ppl with ports.

I strongly disagree and “rezbot” only shows a fraction of the story. You can use strength of the pack to secure stomps (I’ve even used it when a guardian did his AoE pushback, which would have secured a rez and secured against many a would be rezzed revenant too), use staff for healing combo fields and some mobility as well as condition cleanses (and crowd control if an unlucky opponent strolls through the vines when aiming at friendlies), and use as DPS auto until you can secure damage with longbow with tempest and scrapper projectile hate on CD.

Yes it is vulnerable to conditions outside of CA form (disengage CA form for stealth to stomp or bail) and CC and doesn’t handle focus well, but a strong DPS/healing mender build needs a tradeoff somewhere, it’s called balance.

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Posted by: Sirbeaumerdier.3740

Sirbeaumerdier.3740

At first I was not going to bother responding to your critique but I believe there is some hope to get my point across so I posted. I will address you on a point by point basis

Just so we understand each others, I do not address my critique at YOU but at what you SAID. It is very important that you do not forget this.

-Nobody has factual evidence on a scale to prove anything except someone who can data mine anet’s logs. What we can prove are only things based on our experiences in game.

That is not entirely correct since we know how the algorithm pairs people in a team and are aware of the unfortunate collateral damage or boons it can potentially carry. This is a fact. An important one might I add.

But more importantly, if you admit no one can produce evidence why do you so cavalierly dismiss others point of views and different experiences?

-On meta builds: search and rescue druid as I briefly explained is not a build that can carry a team to force wins. resurrecting a bad player means hes going to die again faster than search and rescue gets used or you get countered while using search and rescue by good player. I will not go further in detail I am not writing a thesis on why res bot druid is bad. What I will say res bot druid not good because you get destroyed when outnumbered by competent players or in team fight if focused by ppl with ports. Resurrect druid will not make wins happen when you are behind. Where as a good Mesmer for example can make a win happen with a good portal play. A good elementalist on a team with no elementalist will increase the teams chance of winning if he can support mid and not let it get capped regardless of teammates deaths occurring the point stays decapped until it can be contested again into another fight. A druid not wasting utilities on SnR and not in clerics can force wins by being one of the best 1v1 builds thus forcing wins on side points and rotating in and out scoring points increasing likelihood your team wins.

The thing is and remain that you more or less imply people loosing are using bad builds. For one, the people playing non-meta is relatively rare. I would even go so far as to say non-meta p;layers are often the strong players. Also, if all things were equals the opponents would also have players who have these bad builds. Sadly, things are not made equal at the core.

all this to say that I see little evidences as to this being anywhere near the culprit of the problem we have at hand.

-On point 3: People do not have low MMR for no reason. I will concede if it is true new players starting in low MMR and not some average number as bad design. Having low MMR means you do not meet the games expectations of you. You can get out of so called MMR hell in 1 of 2 ways. Team Q or play well enough to beat expectations unless someone can prove the expectation system is deeply flawed which I have yet to be shown. If a player can not do either then they will get stuck is that fair I think so is it fun no it is not and perhaps Anet should do something about it.

This has already been discussed several times actually. you are correct that ppl do not have bad MMR for no reasons. The little hiccup in this reasoning is to immediately attribute bad MMR with poor skill players and high MMR with high skill players.

If like me you always sought to fight against the meta most of the time and no cared much about your rating, you will have a lesser win/loose ratio than you more than likely would if you had forced yourself playing the cheese most play.

Conversely, season 1 ppl who have exploited the match-making engine have artificially made themselves MMR gods that are in reality no different than most average players.

Finally, you have to also keep in mind that the new players will be attributed an average rating. That means someone like me who has 5k+ on his elementalist will be judged of similar skill as a brand new gw2 player…

Which leads back to your initial claim that there is a reason why ppl have poor MMR. If people with 5k+ hours and thousands of matches are on the same team as brand new players because they play riskier and the new player is welcomed at average rating what do you think will happen to the experienced player MMR more often than not? Will it, all things being equal, go up or down? And if it goes down or at least not up what teammates will he continue to get? And what will be the result of the next match and the consequence? See a problem here?

On the opposite spectrum, let’s take a season 1 cheeser who always played it safe and exploited the match making process. What teammates will the algorithm feed him if he soloq? High MMR players like him ofc. Will he, all things being equals, have to carry such ppl or they usually can carry themselves in a match? Yeah, the conditions for winning when 1/5 does not have to carry 4/5 are not exactly the same as when 4 or 5/5 can carry themselves.

[quote=6038573;Vlad.1739:][quote][quote][quote][quote]

(edited by Sirbeaumerdier.3740)

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Posted by: Sirbeaumerdier.3740

Sirbeaumerdier.3740

At first I was not going to bother responding to your critique but I believe there is some hope to get my point across so I posted. I will address you on a point by point basis

Just so we understand each others, I do not address my critique at YOU but at what you SAID. It is very important that you do not forget this.

-Nobody has factual evidence on a scale to prove anything except someone who can data mine anet’s logs. What we can prove are only things based on our experiences in game.[/quote] That is not entirely correct since we know how the algorithm pairs people in a team and be aware of the unfortunate collateral damage or boons it can potentially carry. This is a fact. An important one might I add.

But more importantly, if you admit no one can produce evidence why do you so cavalierly dismiss others point of views and different experiences?

-On meta builds: search and rescue druid as I briefly explained is not a build that can carry a team to force wins. resurrecting a bad player means hes going to die again faster than search and rescue gets used or you get countered while using search and rescue by good player. I will not go further in detail I am not writing a thesis on why res bot druid is bad. What I will say res bot druid not good because you get destroyed when outnumbered by competent players or in team fight if focused by ppl with ports. Resurrect druid will not make wins happen when you are behind. Where as a good Mesmer for example can make a win happen with a good portal play. A good elementalist on a team with no elementalist will increase the teams chance of winning if he can support mid and not let it get capped regardless of teammates deaths occurring the point stays decapped until it can be contested again into another fight. A druid not wasting utilities on SnR and not in clerics can force wins by being one of the best 1v1 builds thus forcing wins on side points and rotating in and out scoring points increasing likelihood your team wins.

The thing is and remain that you more or less imply people loosing are using bad builds. For one, the people playing non-meta is relatively rare. I would even go so far as to say non-meta p;layers are often the strong players. Also, if all things were equals the opponents would also have players who have these bad builds. Sadly, things are not made equal at the core.

all this to say that I see little evidences as to this being anywhere near the culprit of the problem we have at hand.

-On point 3: People do not have low MMR for no reason. I will concede if it is true new players starting in low MMR and not some average number as bad design. Having low MMR means you do not meet the games expectations of you. You can get out of so called MMR hell in 1 of 2 ways. Team Q or play well enough to beat expectations unless someone can prove the expectation system is deeply flawed which I have yet to be shown. If a player can not do either then they will get stuck is that fair I think so is it fun no it is not and perhaps Anet should do something about it.

This has already been discussed several times actually. you are correct that ppl do not have bad MMR for no reasons. The little hiccup in this reasoning is to immediately attribute bad MMR with poor skill players and high MMR with high skill players.

If like me you always sought to fight against the meta most of the time and no cared much about your rating, you will have a lesser win/loose ratio than you more than likely would if you had forced yourself playing the cheese most play.

Conversely, season 1 ppl who have exploited the match-making engine have artificially made themselves MMR gods that are in reality no different than most average players.

Finally, you have to also keep in mind that the new players will be attributed an average rating. That means someone like me who has 5k+ on his elementalist will be judged of similar skill as a brand new gw2 player…

Which leads back to your initial claim that there is a reason why ppl have poor MMR. If people with 5k+ hours and thousands of matches are on the same team as brand new players because they play riskier and the new player is welcomed at average rating what do you think will happen to the experienced player MMR more often than not? Will it, all things being equal, go up or down? And if it goes down or at least not up what teammates will he continue to get? And what will be the result of the next match and the consequence? See a problem here?

On the opposite spectrum, let’s take a season 1 cheeser who always played it safe and exploited the match making process. What teammates will the algorithm feed him if he soloq? High MMR players like him ofc. Will he, all things being equals, have to carry such ppl or they usually can carry themselves in a match? Yeah, the conditions for winning when 1/5 does not have to carry 4/5 are not exactly the same as when 4 or 5/5 can carry themselves.

In other words we compare bananas and air craft carriers. The algorithm engineer self-fulfilling prophecies and we do not.

-On positive win ratios: This ties into being good enough to carry to some extent or not being dead weight to your team. If you are better than 50% of the population playing you should have more than 50% win ratio. Thus over time you will get needed wins to become a legend. if you are this good but not winning because of MMR system. You need to start performing above expectations in matches, score more points to be where you should, which is hopefully in a place where you are on the winning 50% of the population. Of course, again, what will happen to that players MMR most of the time? It will go up or at least not down which lead to play while not having to carry etc.

See above.

-It is pointless to keep blaming your team for losing under the current system. The system expects you to rise up out of the hellhole that is low ranks and be deciding factor in your team winning or to perform above expectations to get better teams.
-the world is not fair but in GW2 there is are underlying systems that generate what is perceived as unfair. Long time players do not have low MMR or negative win ratio for no good reason. So if you have low MMR you deserved it for not performing well enough. If MMR should be reset at new leagues is a different debate and maybe it should to make the game more fun for certain people. Unlike the world GW2 success is a much greater degree in the hands of an individual. As in playing builds with potential to swing games and make plays, performing better than expected, and gaining in skill.

I will give you that it is in fact pointless to blame a system in the sense it doesn’t care but venting can help relieve pressure, letting know your experience to the system makers can lead to change and getting some acknowledgement from others also help how you cope with it. Being belittle and ignored while painted as a lazy entitled kid is not helping and more importantly is plain not correct/true.

Since I’ve already went through the “long time players do not have low MMR for no good reasons” portion of your text I will spare you repeating myself as to why it is not a valid measure of individual skill. If you are a good player, no matter your rating, you should rise. You do not need a system that will make it impossible for you not to. Again, it’s more a self-fulfilling prophecy as it is.

People like me, who can’t possibly be put in the same basket as new players MMR-wise no matter how you think he deserve that MMR for not having cared about it before, will suffer a lot from such a system, and it will be factually unfair to them to be given such players continuously.

I’ve already proposed to A-NET that if they can keep an eye on my account I would be willing to let another player who have a high opinion of himself show us how he can carry the teams I’m given. I say put up or shut up already. If you can’t do better than me you loose any legitimacy of blaming my skill belonging in the trash.

-To address your points of deserving I will point out as much as I hate to Helseth is going to carry someone he found who believes he is skilled enough to rank up but hard done by the system on a brand new account (IE low MMR) while I will be the first to admit there are a few flaws in his methodology what it will at-least prove if you are good enough you will rank up because you deserve it and will earn it because you are a deciding factor in games and/or queuing with a good player is enough to rank up. On another point Helseth plays Mesmer a known good player and as I have stated before a good Mesmer can steal games. I am very sure He will succeed in ranking up his adopted player.

It is easier to carry on some professions but carrying players who have experience and players who do not / do not care / troll is quite another. I know a bundle on carrying and my shoulders are hurting a lot.

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Posted by: DallasisaLeo.1584

DallasisaLeo.1584

I’ve never experienced that. All the way up to diamond I never lost more that 3 in a row.

Can’t you see that you’re just on the opposite side of the same problem coin? How do people not make this connection?

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Posted by: Blackjack.5621

Blackjack.5621

seems completely random to me, sometimes I got a team of all proleague players multiple times in a row and another time i get a loss streak by facing such teams (all soloqs) It seems like its too hard to measure actual player skill.

Even when there are players on the same level, they don´t get equally split over both teams.

I Zapdos I
WTS Boston winner
Esl profile: http://play.eslgaming.com/player/7930634/

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Posted by: Sirbeaumerdier.3740

Sirbeaumerdier.3740

I’ve never experienced that. All the way up to diamond I never lost more that 3 in a row.

Can’t you see that you’re just on the opposite side of the same problem coin? How do people not make this connection?

IKR. People see what they want to see is the problem.

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Posted by: MithranArkanere.8957

MithranArkanere.8957

We need way more and better personal score metrics. Then a “MVP” system for those players that provide their team with the most score and lead it to victory.

Then use the amount of times a player has earned MVP awards, to determine which players stand from the rest the most.

Once we have that, we can team together players that lead their teams to victory the most, and split them from those that have just being getting carried and win out of sheer luck.

SUGGEST-A-TRON says:
PAY—ONCE—UNLOCKS—ARE—ALWAYS—BETTER.
No exceptions!

(edited by MithranArkanere.8957)

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Posted by: style.6173

style.6173

At first I was not going to bother responding to your critique but I believe there is some hope to get my point across so I posted. I will address you on a point by point basis

-Nobody has factual evidence on a scale to prove anything except someone who can data mine anet’s logs. What we can prove are only things based on our experiences in game.

-On meta builds: search and rescue druid as I briefly explained is not a build that can carry a team to force wins. resurrecting a bad player means hes going to die again faster than search and rescue gets used or you get countered while using search and rescue by good player. I will not go further in detail I am not writing a thesis on why res bot druid is bad. What I will say res bot druid not good because you get destroyed when outnumbered by competent players or in team fight if focused by ppl with ports. Resurrect druid will not make wins happen when you are behind. Where as a good Mesmer for example can make a win happen with a good portal play. A good elementalist on a team with no elementalist will increase the teams chance of winning if he can support mid and not let it get capped regardless of teammates deaths occurring the point stays decapped until it can be contested again into another fight. A druid not wasting utilities on SnR and not in clerics can force wins by being one of the best 1v1 builds thus forcing wins on side points and rotating in and out scoring points increasing likelihood your team wins.

-On point 3: People do not have low MMR for no reason. I will concede if it is true new players starting in low MMR and not some average number as bad design. Having low MMR means you do not meet the games expectations of you. You can get out of so called MMR hell in 1 of 2 ways. Team Q or play well enough to beat expectations unless someone can prove the expectation system is deeply flawed which I have yet to be shown. If a player can not do either then they will get stuck is that fair I think so is it fun no it is not and perhaps Anet should do something about it.

-On positive win ratios: This ties into being good enough to carry to some extent or not being dead weight to your team. If you are better than 50% of the population playing you should have more than 50% win ratio. Thus over time you will get needed wins to become a legend. if you are this good but not winning because of MMR system. You need to start performing above expectations in matches, score more points to be where you should, which is hopefully in a place where you are on the winning 50% of the population.

-It is pointless to keep blaming your team for losing under the current system. The system expects you to rise up out of the hellhole that is low ranks and be deciding factor in your team winning or to perform above expectations to get better teams.
-the world is not fair but in GW2 there is are underlying systems that generate what is perceived as unfair. Long time players do not have low MMR or negative win ratio for no good reason. So if you have low MMR you deserved it for not performing well enough. If MMR should be reset at new leagues is a different debate and maybe it should to make the game more fun for certain people. Unlike the world GW2 success is a much greater degree in the hands of an individual. As in playing builds with potential to swing games and make plays, performing better than expected, and gaining in skill.

-To address your points of deserving I will point out as much as I hate to Helseth is going to carry someone he found who believes he is skilled enough to rank up but hard done by the system on a brand new account (IE low MMR) while I will be the first to admit there are a few flaws in his methodology what it will at-least prove if you are good enough you will rank up because you deserve it and will earn it because you are a deciding factor in games and/or queuing with a good player is enough to rank up. On another point Helseth plays Mesmer a known good player and as I have stated before a good Mesmer can steal games. I am very sure He will succeed in ranking up his adopted player.

Nice point but there is such a thing as elo hell. One person can’t carry 4 bads players, you just can’t unless his opponent team is full of bads as well. Which is very unlikely in this meta. And as everyone as pointed, druids are meta. So kitten might explain why your anecdotal experience differs from the OP. But flat out saying there is no such thing as MMR hell is Def wrong and untrue.

You need to understand that at some point people match out on their own potential and will just blame bad matchmaking.

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Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

if you hit a brick wall try something different, like teaming up with people and use voip.

Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE

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Posted by: Sirbeaumerdier.3740

Sirbeaumerdier.3740

if you hit a brick wall try something different, like teaming up with people and use voip.

This is, for some, the only avenue. Sadly, it is not easy for all to get a group when you want to play. Why do you think soloq is so popular?

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Posted by: SkyShroud.2865

SkyShroud.2865

i was really happy that i finally got out of the emerald last pip and winning streak my way to ruby, only to find half of the ruby players are worst than sapphire players.

edit: not to mention, i remember beating a team of ruby with a team of sapphire, it really makes you wonder how they get up there, it really makes you wonder if MMR truly is working as great as other claim. i will see how good the players in diamond are once i get there. who knows, maybe they might be worst than ruby.

Founder & Leader of Equinox Solstice [TIME], a Singapore-Based International Guild
Henge of Denravi Server
www.gw2time.com

(edited by SkyShroud.2865)

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Posted by: doombreaker.3710

doombreaker.3710

I have a really bad streak today. And it gets worse with every match. Now I’m together with “never go far” and “hey its 450-450 and enemy got a 2 cap. Let’s fight a little bit off-point” and “what’s tranq?”. Even the best rotation can’t help if you got these players.

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

You need to understand that at some point people match out on their own potential and will just blame bad matchmaking.

Except in this matchmaking many people don’t.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: Sirbeaumerdier.3740

Sirbeaumerdier.3740

At first I was not going to bother responding to your critique but I believe there is some hope to get my point across so I posted. I will address you on a point by point basis

-Nobody has factual evidence on a scale to prove anything except someone who can data mine anet’s logs. What we can prove are only things based on our experiences in game.

-On meta builds: search and rescue druid as I briefly explained is not a build that can carry a team to force wins. resurrecting a bad player means hes going to die again faster than search and rescue gets used or you get countered while using search and rescue by good player. I will not go further in detail I am not writing a thesis on why res bot druid is bad. What I will say res bot druid not good because you get destroyed when outnumbered by competent players or in team fight if focused by ppl with ports. Resurrect druid will not make wins happen when you are behind. Where as a good Mesmer for example can make a win happen with a good portal play. A good elementalist on a team with no elementalist will increase the teams chance of winning if he can support mid and not let it get capped regardless of teammates deaths occurring the point stays decapped until it can be contested again into another fight. A druid not wasting utilities on SnR and not in clerics can force wins by being one of the best 1v1 builds thus forcing wins on side points and rotating in and out scoring points increasing likelihood your team wins.

-On point 3: People do not have low MMR for no reason. I will concede if it is true new players starting in low MMR and not some average number as bad design. Having low MMR means you do not meet the games expectations of you. You can get out of so called MMR hell in 1 of 2 ways. Team Q or play well enough to beat expectations unless someone can prove the expectation system is deeply flawed which I have yet to be shown. If a player can not do either then they will get stuck is that fair I think so is it fun no it is not and perhaps Anet should do something about it.

-On positive win ratios: This ties into being good enough to carry to some extent or not being dead weight to your team. If you are better than 50% of the population playing you should have more than 50% win ratio. Thus over time you will get needed wins to become a legend. if you are this good but not winning because of MMR system. You need to start performing above expectations in matches, score more points to be where you should, which is hopefully in a place where you are on the winning 50% of the population.

-It is pointless to keep blaming your team for losing under the current system. The system expects you to rise up out of the hellhole that is low ranks and be deciding factor in your team winning or to perform above expectations to get better teams.
-the world is not fair but in GW2 there is are underlying systems that generate what is perceived as unfair. Long time players do not have low MMR or negative win ratio for no good reason. So if you have low MMR you deserved it for not performing well enough. If MMR should be reset at new leagues is a different debate and maybe it should to make the game more fun for certain people. Unlike the world GW2 success is a much greater degree in the hands of an individual. As in playing builds with potential to swing games and make plays, performing better than expected, and gaining in skill.

-To address your points of deserving I will point out as much as I hate to Helseth is going to carry someone he found who believes he is skilled enough to rank up but hard done by the system on a brand new account (IE low MMR) while I will be the first to admit there are a few flaws in his methodology what it will at-least prove if you are good enough you will rank up because you deserve it and will earn it because you are a deciding factor in games and/or queuing with a good player is enough to rank up. On another point Helseth plays Mesmer a known good player and as I have stated before a good Mesmer can steal games. I am very sure He will succeed in ranking up his adopted player.

Nice point but there is such a thing as elo hell. One person can’t carry 4 bads players, you just can’t unless his opponent team is full of bads as well. Which is very unlikely in this meta. And as everyone as pointed, druids are meta. So kitten might explain why your anecdotal experience differs from the OP. But flat out saying there is no such thing as MMR hell is Def wrong and untrue.

You need to understand that at some point people match out on their own potential and will just blame bad matchmaking.

True, except a lot of the people complaining, myself included obviously, are doing so BECAUSE they witness their potential being held back as opposed to having hit the wall of their own limits. It seems to be really hard for some to wrap their head around this.

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Posted by: JTGuevara.9018

JTGuevara.9018

At first I was not going to bother responding to your critique but I believe there is some hope to get my point across so I posted. I will address you on a point by point basis

-Nobody has factual evidence on a scale to prove anything except someone who can data mine anet’s logs. What we can prove are only things based on our experiences in game.

-On meta builds: search and rescue druid as I briefly explained is not a build that can carry a team to force wins. resurrecting a bad player means hes going to die again faster than search and rescue gets used or you get countered while using search and rescue by good player. I will not go further in detail I am not writing a thesis on why res bot druid is bad. What I will say res bot druid not good because you get destroyed when outnumbered by competent players or in team fight if focused by ppl with ports. Resurrect druid will not make wins happen when you are behind. Where as a good Mesmer for example can make a win happen with a good portal play. A good elementalist on a team with no elementalist will increase the teams chance of winning if he can support mid and not let it get capped regardless of teammates deaths occurring the point stays decapped until it can be contested again into another fight. A druid not wasting utilities on SnR and not in clerics can force wins by being one of the best 1v1 builds thus forcing wins on side points and rotating in and out scoring points increasing likelihood your team wins.

-On point 3: People do not have low MMR for no reason. I will concede if it is true new players starting in low MMR and not some average number as bad design. Having low MMR means you do not meet the games expectations of you. You can get out of so called MMR hell in 1 of 2 ways. Team Q or play well enough to beat expectations unless someone can prove the expectation system is deeply flawed which I have yet to be shown. If a player can not do either then they will get stuck is that fair I think so is it fun no it is not and perhaps Anet should do something about it.

-On positive win ratios: This ties into being good enough to carry to some extent or not being dead weight to your team. If you are better than 50% of the population playing you should have more than 50% win ratio. Thus over time you will get needed wins to become a legend. if you are this good but not winning because of MMR system. You need to start performing above expectations in matches, score more points to be where you should, which is hopefully in a place where you are on the winning 50% of the population.

-It is pointless to keep blaming your team for losing under the current system. The system expects you to rise up out of the hellhole that is low ranks and be deciding factor in your team winning or to perform above expectations to get better teams.
-the world is not fair but in GW2 there is are underlying systems that generate what is perceived as unfair. Long time players do not have low MMR or negative win ratio for no good reason. So if you have low MMR you deserved it for not performing well enough. If MMR should be reset at new leagues is a different debate and maybe it should to make the game more fun for certain people. Unlike the world GW2 success is a much greater degree in the hands of an individual. As in playing builds with potential to swing games and make plays, performing better than expected, and gaining in skill.

-To address your points of deserving I will point out as much as I hate to Helseth is going to carry someone he found who believes he is skilled enough to rank up but hard done by the system on a brand new account (IE low MMR) while I will be the first to admit there are a few flaws in his methodology what it will at-least prove if you are good enough you will rank up because you deserve it and will earn it because you are a deciding factor in games and/or queuing with a good player is enough to rank up. On another point Helseth plays Mesmer a known good player and as I have stated before a good Mesmer can steal games. I am very sure He will succeed in ranking up his adopted player.

Nice point but there is such a thing as elo hell. One person can’t carry 4 bads players, you just can’t unless his opponent team is full of bads as well. Which is very unlikely in this meta. And as everyone as pointed, druids are meta. So kitten might explain why your anecdotal experience differs from the OP. But flat out saying there is no such thing as MMR hell is Def wrong and untrue.

You need to understand that at some point people match out on their own potential and will just blame bad matchmaking.

True, except a lot of the people complaining, myself included obviously, are doing so BECAUSE they witness their potential being held back as opposed to having hit the wall of their own limits. It seems to be really hard for some to wrap their head around this.

Nailed it. I wish more people that deny these problems even exist understand this.

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Posted by: Pure Heart.1456

Pure Heart.1456

You need to understand that at some point people match out on their own potential and will just blame bad matchmaking.

This would be a fair enough comment if the game scores at end were close. They’re not, they’re wild blow outs.

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Posted by: NiffyinaJiffy.1532

NiffyinaJiffy.1532

I don’t know what it is, whether it’s the weekend or that there really is an MMR hell. Soloqueue just doesn’t seem viable anymore. Where I had a win streak from Amber to Ruby, I have seemingly hit a wall (not skill wise) where I keep getting pushed back to t2 ruby. No matter how many times I get to t5-t6 Ruby, I get a lose streak and I get pushed back down to t2. You can’t carry 4 other people when they aren’t prepared to pay attention to what they’re doing or play properly.

I’d have to agree with what Sirbeaumerdier.3740, that’s really how I feel about this current season. All in all stuff like this is really making me want to take another 4 month hiatus from the game, just like what happened with me in last season.

This is what happened to me today:

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Posted by: Engel.6029

Engel.6029

I don’t know what it is, whether it’s the weekend or that there really is an MMR hell. Soloqueue just doesn’t seem viable anymore. Where I had a win streak from Amber to Ruby, I have seemingly hit a wall (not skill wise) where I keep getting pushed back to t2 ruby. No matter how many times I get to t5-t6 Ruby, I get a lose streak and I get pushed back down to t2. You can’t carry 4 other people when they aren’t prepared to pay attention to what they’re doing or play properly.

I’d have to agree with what Sirbeaumerdier.3740, that’s really how I feel about this current season. All in all stuff like this is really making me want to take another 4 month hiatus from the game, just like what happened with me in last season.

This is what happened to me today:

Don’t play on weekends. It was terrible last season and it’s terrible this season.

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Posted by: Amineo.8951

Amineo.8951

I don’t know what it is, whether it’s the weekend or that there really is an MMR hell. Soloqueue just doesn’t seem viable anymore. Where I had a win streak from Amber to Ruby, I have seemingly hit a wall (not skill wise) where I keep getting pushed back to t2 ruby. No matter how many times I get to t5-t6 Ruby, I get a lose streak and I get pushed back down to t2. You can’t carry 4 other people when they aren’t prepared to pay attention to what they’re doing or play properly.

I’d have to agree with what Sirbeaumerdier.3740, that’s really how I feel about this current season. All in all stuff like this is really making me want to take another 4 month hiatus from the game, just like what happened with me in last season.

This is what happened to me today:

Don’t play on weekends. It was terrible last season and it’s terrible this season.

Strangely enough, I win more in week-ends than playing during the week at late afternoons…

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Posted by: Petoox.6570

Petoox.6570

That’s not elo hell, that’s tilt. Take a break.