Guild Wars 2

Well, I am pretty sure this will be removed and infracted within minutes of posting. But it needs saying.

ANET, you done kittened up!

In response to two previous posts I made on a similar topic. First is negative and quite seriously close to me quitting PvP altogether. The second had me very happy at the prospects of the future!

First one – Tired of Hoping : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Tired-of-hoping/first#post5373354

Second one – Hope Returns : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Hope-returns/first#post5554073

Now how do i feel? Frustrated, irritated and almost disgusted in the lack of balance passes before leagues.

This is not how you start a competitive season.

But lets get into a few more detail :
For clarity, this is not THIS is OP, that is too strong or everything is whatever.
This post will PURELY focus on BROKEN mechanics that are inconsistent with previous skill design and goes against everything that should be considered healthy for a PvP game based on conquest.

Some examples :

1. Distortion(and other invulnerability) and contribution to capture point.
How is it that this is different on well of precognition? Which is a 5 target distortion?
Ive seen duo Mesmers bunker a cap to all living hell with them being completely immune to damage for great lengths of time.
They can savestomp with ZERO counterplay, which is unprecedented.
You can’t strip distortion.
You can’t cleave downstate people.
There literally is NO counterplay whatsoever.
The same goes for invulnerability(or take no damage) on other classes, druids specifically have so much flat damage mitigation that don’t count as a block while they are still able to contribute to cap.

2. Dragonhunter 2 points that i find complete BS :

2.1 Virtues being 10x better than on base guardian with essentially no trade-off.
Spear of Justice has a 20 second untrated cooldown, does a reasonable amount of damage both power and condition damage and the best part of all has a quarter second cast time which is almost untelegraphed and is an UNBLOCKABLE pull.
I mean COME ON! Who thought this was a good idea?
Compare that to the nearest other skill that does the same, magnet on engineer, which has a 25 second CD, one and a quarter second cast time and a very obvious animation and NO damage AT ALL but does the same thing.
I mean COME ON ANET? A 12 year old could see this is unhealthy for the game.

2.1 Instacast traps, they might as well not be called traps. So more unblockable, instacast CC, or if not CC, healing then.

Mechanically these don’t make sense and should not be instant at the very least.
I don’t care what you have to say about how easy DH is too counter or whatnot, mechanically broken. Period.

3. Revenant : despite being super overtuned in all aspects of the game, the Glint heal is just stupid mechanically.
“Stop attacking him”, and “l2p” cry the masses, however I say,
that in a teamfight, please tell me you would would stop attacking 2-3 other players just to avoid cleaving a glint heal? Because if thats the case, I don’t want to play this game anymore. If this was the ONLY heal the revenant had, i would be less worried and frustrated because they would be risking less dueling potential, but the fact that it isn’t, is MIGHTY frustrating and again BROKEN.

This isn’t an exhaustive list of broken mechanics or balance issues that exist in PvP right now, however, these are some examples that should have been noted and nerfed BEFORE even getting into BETA gameplay as mechanically unhealthy.
The fact that they have not been fixed post leagues launch a month after release is infuriating and almost unbelievable.

ANET, you done kittened up, but can you fix it?
Can you fix it and actually prove your balance competence in future?
When will you realize that PvP and PvE balance should be split?
When will you realize that a dedicated balance team THAT ACTUALLY PLAYS PvP regularly is required?

Once again, I am sincerely tired of hoping.

“We strongly believe that regular balance updates are one of the key pillars of building a successful competitive game. As such, prior to each season, there will be a balance update. League play will generally begin about two weeks after a balance update to ensure that the metagame has stabilized in an appropriate manner. Balance will be closely monitored throughout the season with the goal of having solid balance going into the postseason tournaments.”

Have you ever tried practicing more?

Highlie.7641:

“We strongly believe that regular balance updates are one of the key pillars of building a successful competitive game. As such, prior to each season, there will be a balance update. League play will generally begin about two weeks after a balance update to ensure that the metagame has stabilized in an appropriate manner. Balance will be closely monitored throughout the season with the goal of having solid balance going into the postseason tournaments.”

Thanks. Good to see that they are sticking to their promises as we have seen in the past… Oh wait…

And yes, I am being hyperbolic, frustration tends to do that.

Skyline Crash.6254:

Have you ever tried practicing more?

Clearly didn’t read, or trolling. Goodjob!

Then quit already.

ViciousFire.9137:

Then quit already.

From first post :
“Should I stop playing? I don’t want to stop, I love it, remember?”

“This is not a list of things that are too OP, it’s just going to focus on things that are too OP”

free salt anyone?

RustedEmbrace.1746:

“This is not a list of things that are too OP, it’s just going to focus on things that are too OP”

free salt anyone?

This forum and reddit already got enough salt. It’s probably going to be more when they actually release the balance patch.

How about you start trying to get better????

Funny thing is, balance isn’t even close to being the biggest problem of sPvP

I’d say all the bugs (obvious ones too) running rampant is funnier.

Hey let’s look at a few things here…

Novuake.2691:

2.1 Virtues being 10x better than on base guardian with essentially no trade-off.

lol

Justice: Have to be facing target, cast time, generally single target (can hit multiple, but have to be lined up), can be evaded. The pull has a 40 second cooldown.
Resolve: Obvious cast time/delay that can and does get interrupted
Courage: Now has a cast time – cannot be used in the middle of another action.

Clear trade-offs – and you just left out/ignored the fact that the Spear pull is on a separate cool down which is nearly double your example of another pull.

2.1 Instacast traps, they might as well not be called traps. So more unblockable, instacast CC, or if not CC, healing then.

Mechanically these don’t make sense and should not be instant at the very least.
I don’t care what you have to say about how easy DH is too counter or whatnot, mechanically broken. Period.

Hah. Only 2 are instant cast, and one of those is utility (not the heal.) They’re instant cast, not instant effect, as they have an activation time just like all traps.

But hey, when you have to exaggerate, lie, and get the actual facts absolutely wrong to make your point, it’s pretty clear even you didn’t think the facts were actually enough to make it sound as bad as you wanted.

Or you’re just totally ignorant and have no idea what you’re talking about. So was it malice or stupidity that you got all the facts wrong?

“We strongly believe that regular balance updates are one of the key pillars of building a successful competitive game. As such, prior to each season, there will be a balance update. League play will generally begin about two weeks after a balance update to ensure that the metagame has stabilized in an appropriate manner. Balance will be closely monitored throughout the season with the goal of having solid balance going into the postseason tournaments.”

“We strongly believe that regular balance updates are one of the key pillars of building a successful competitive game. As such, prior to each season, there will be a balance update. League play will generally begin about two weeks after a balance update to ensure that the metagame has stabilized in an appropriate manner. Balance will be closely monitored throughout the season with the goal of having solid balance going into the postseason tournaments.”

Tempest support lame.
Scrapper bruising for dayz lame.
Guard insta cast traps lame.
Chrono bunker lame.
Reaper chills lame.
Druid ranged daze lame.
Rev sustain+condi pressure lame.
Daredevil evade spam lame.
Can’t really think of anything for berserkers atm, but there’s prolly something lame.

So much lame stuff everywhere.

Lame.

“We strongly believe that regular balance updates are one of the key pillars of building a successful competitive game. As such, prior to each season, there will be a balance update. League play will generally begin about two weeks after a balance update to ensure that the metagame has stabilized in an appropriate manner. Balance will be closely monitored throughout the season with the goal of having solid balance going into the postseason tournaments.”

scampbell.9762:

“We strongly believe that regular balance updates are one of the key pillars of building a successful competitive game. As such, prior to each season, there will be a balance update. League play will generally begin about two weeks after a balance update to ensure that the metagame has stabilized in an appropriate manner. Balance will be closely monitored throughout the season with the goal of having solid balance going into the postseason tournaments.”

I posted this on another thread but Colin has posted about balance on reddit just now, they regard HOT itself as the balance patch before S1:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3v0x29/how_do_anet_expect_us_to_take_pvp_seriously_when/cxk2yny

Mcrocha.3891:

Tempest support lame.
Scrapper bruising for dayz lame.
Guard insta cast traps lame.
Chrono bunker lame.
Reaper chills lame.
Druid ranged daze lame.
Rev sustain+condi pressure lame.
Daredevil evade spam lame.
Can’t really think of anything for berserkers atm, but there’s prolly something lame.

So much lame stuff everywhere.

Lame.

how is being a Support on tempest “lame” lmfao, how is a Role as a whole considered “lame” why are u even complaining, if anything it puts them at a disadvantage in Soloqueue because half the teams are good enough to support.

Like most ridiculous argument i’ve ever read to call tempests lame based on their Role in SPVP currently, ur just litterally taking anything they do and putting lame next to it, which is utter BS lol.

as if half of them u couldnt think of anything bad for them, so just put their role or a common build currently use infront of lame, litterally worse thoughtout post on this forums currently and just makes 0 Sense.

Dahkeus.8243:

Me no have own thoughts. Me spam bot mashing Ctrl+V

Mindless spam bot, got it.

Yeah the new specs are overtuned to say the least, its quite sad really.

IsilZha.3608:

Hey let’s look at a few things here…

Novuake.2691:

2.1 Virtues being 10x better than on base guardian with essentially no trade-off.

lol

Justice: Have to be facing target, cast time, generally single target (can hit multiple, but have to be lined up), can be evaded. The pull has a 40 second cooldown.
Resolve: Obvious cast time/delay that can and does get interrupted
Courage: Now has a cast time – cannot be used in the middle of another action.

Clear trade-offs – and you just left out/ignored the fact that the Spear pull is on a separate cool down which is nearly double your example of another pull.

2.1 Instacast traps, they might as well not be called traps. So more unblockable, instacast CC, or if not CC, healing then.

Mechanically these don’t make sense and should not be instant at the very least.
I don’t care what you have to say about how easy DH is too counter or whatnot, mechanically broken. Period.

Hah. Only 2 are instant cast, and one of those is utility (not the heal.) They’re instant cast, not instant effect, as they have an activation time just like all traps.

But hey, when you have to exaggerate, lie, and get the actual facts absolutely wrong to make your point, it’s pretty clear even you didn’t think the facts were actually enough to make it sound as bad as you wanted.

Or you’re just totally ignorant and have no idea what you’re talking about. So was it malice or stupidity that you got all the facts wrong?

A thousand times this! It’s the perfect example of what’s wrong with this forum.

Not saying PvP doesn’t have balance issues, but if people tried at least to read about other classes and how to counter them, this forum wouldn’t be drowning in salt and QQ threads.

How can people expect replies from devs when most of the threads are uneducated and raged complaints?

I don’t really wanna comment on what needs to be balanced and whatnot, but I wanna point out this information is wrong:

“1. Distortion(and other invulnerability) and contribution to capture point.
How is it that this is different on well of precognition? Which is a 5 target distortion?
I”

Well of Precognition does not give “distortion” it gives “blur”. Blur is the same Mesmer get’s when using Sword #2 Blurred Frenzy, which gives you Evade Frames! Which means if you condi overload the mesmer he will still take dmg from the condition and dmg from ret if his hitting you. Evade frame granting skills have allways allowed you to capture points across the board, so this isn’t any different.

Distortion negates all dmg and under that you do not contribute to point capping.
The only way a Mesmer can share distortion, is the Inspiration minor Inspiring Distorition, which shares ours with nearby team m8’s, which is a hindrance more often then a blessing. Because here both I and my teammate won’t contribute to point capping.

Also… there is counterplay, how about just doing a stomp on the downed person? and you can “counterplay” their safe stomps by… ressing your team m8? I mean, it’s not new some professions can do stomps you really can’t prevent!
And honestly if two mesmers are bunkering on the same point, just leave really!

Does the game neeed “unevadeable attacks” like we have unblockable attacks? That is an entire different discussion, which might bring somrthing good to the game if we got! (Could see it being nice for Warriors and Necromancers for a start)

IsilZha.3608:

Hey let’s look at a few things here…

Novuake.2691:

2.1 Virtues being 10x better than on base guardian with essentially no trade-off.

lol

Justice: Have to be facing target, cast time, generally single target (can hit multiple, but have to be lined up), can be evaded. The pull has a 40 second cooldown.
Resolve: Obvious cast time/delay that can and does get interrupted
Courage: Now has a cast time – cannot be used in the middle of another action.

Clear trade-offs – and you just left out/ignored the fact that the Spear pull is on a separate cool down which is nearly double your example of another pull.

2.1 Instacast traps, they might as well not be called traps. So more unblockable, instacast CC, or if not CC, healing then.

Mechanically these don’t make sense and should not be instant at the very least.
I don’t care what you have to say about how easy DH is too counter or whatnot, mechanically broken. Period.

Hah. Only 2 are instant cast, and one of those is utility (not the heal.) They’re instant cast, not instant effect, as they have an activation time just like all traps.

But hey, when you have to exaggerate, lie, and get the actual facts absolutely wrong to make your point, it’s pretty clear even you didn’t think the facts were actually enough to make it sound as bad as you wanted.

Or you’re just totally ignorant and have no idea what you’re talking about. So was it malice or stupidity that you got all the facts wrong?

Very well, I was not aware that the pull had a separate cooldown to the spear itself.
Comment still stands that it is a very low cast time unblockable CC, sure not that regular, but still mechanically broken.

Test of Faith is NOT a utility and is instant cast. 1 heal, 1 damage/cc, 1 utility instacast.

I won’t respond to anything else you said because you are obviously just here to defend DH, which isn’t the point of the thread.

engi has 20sec cd unblockable pull. idk why DH pull has your panties in such a twist.

if you suck, & need easymode go play guardian. it’s as easy as this game will get.
if you’re playing scrapper & still scrubbing out, haha homes you worse than i am. i can mess w anything on my engi. no fear no scrub. u feel me. learn to play bruh. compose, learn & feel.

choovanski.5462:

engi has 20sec cd unblockable pull. idk why DH pull has your panties in such a twist.

if you suck, & need easymode go play guardian. it’s as easy as this game will get.
if you’re playing scrapper & still scrubbing out, haha homes you worse than i am. i can mess w anything on my engi. no fear no scrub. u feel me. learn to play bruh. compose, learn & feel.

You didn’t read, you didn’t comprehend. Which is it?

Novuake.2691:

choovanski.5462:

engi has 20sec cd unblockable pull. idk why DH pull has your panties in such a twist.

if you suck, & need easymode go play guardian. it’s as easy as this game will get.
if you’re playing scrapper & still scrubbing out, haha homes you worse than i am. i can mess w anything on my engi. no fear no scrub. u feel me. learn to play bruh. compose, learn & feel.

You didn’t read, you didn’t comprehend. Which is it?

DH is EZ if you can dodge roll.
not my fault you suck and you’re getting rolled.

chain gotta connect then they pull. an, you know they will.
you already ate the chain. pull will come.

choovanski.5462:

DH is EZ if you can dodge roll.

Both, got it!

Did you try turning it off and on again? :O

Drayos.8759:

Mcrocha.3891:

Tempest support lame.
Scrapper bruising for dayz lame.
Guard insta cast traps lame.
Chrono bunker lame.
Reaper chills lame.
Druid ranged daze lame.
Rev sustain+condi pressure lame.
Daredevil evade spam lame.
Can’t really think of anything for berserkers atm, but there’s prolly something lame.

So much lame stuff everywhere.

Lame.

how is being a Support on tempest “lame” lmfao, how is a Role as a whole considered “lame” why are u even complaining, if anything it puts them at a disadvantage in Soloqueue because half the teams are good enough to support.

Like most ridiculous argument i’ve ever read to call tempests lame based on their Role in SPVP currently, ur just litterally taking anything they do and putting lame next to it, which is utter BS lol.

as if half of them u couldnt think of anything bad for them, so just put their role or a common build currently use infront of lame, litterally worse thoughtout post on this forums currently and just makes 0 Sense.

Yeah because their roles are lame. I’m not bashing them for playing the role, I’m just saying that something like an auramancer is lame. Fighting something with incredible sustain or evade spam is lame. I understand that is the meta, but that doesn’t make the builds any less lame.

Are you from the past?

Novuake.2691:

IsilZha.3608:

Hey let’s look at a few things here…

Novuake.2691:

2.1 Virtues being 10x better than on base guardian with essentially no trade-off.

lol

Justice: Have to be facing target, cast time, generally single target (can hit multiple, but have to be lined up), can be evaded. The pull has a 40 second cooldown.
Resolve: Obvious cast time/delay that can and does get interrupted
Courage: Now has a cast time – cannot be used in the middle of another action.

Clear trade-offs – and you just left out/ignored the fact that the Spear pull is on a separate cool down which is nearly double your example of another pull.

2.1 Instacast traps, they might as well not be called traps. So more unblockable, instacast CC, or if not CC, healing then.

Mechanically these don’t make sense and should not be instant at the very least.
I don’t care what you have to say about how easy DH is too counter or whatnot, mechanically broken. Period.

Hah. Only 2 are instant cast, and one of those is utility (not the heal.) They’re instant cast, not instant effect, as they have an activation time just like all traps.

But hey, when you have to exaggerate, lie, and get the actual facts absolutely wrong to make your point, it’s pretty clear even you didn’t think the facts were actually enough to make it sound as bad as you wanted.

Or you’re just totally ignorant and have no idea what you’re talking about. So was it malice or stupidity that you got all the facts wrong?

Very well, I was not aware that the pull had a separate cooldown to the spear itself.
Comment still stands that it is a very low cast time unblockable CC, sure not that regular, but still mechanically broken.

Test of Faith is NOT a utility and is instant cast. 1 heal, 1 damage/cc, 1 utility instacast.

Doubling down on an ignorant statement instead of looking it up makes you look like an even bigger idiot. Are you unable to read English? I said one of them is a utility (fragments of faith.) The heal trap is not an instant cast trap. But hey, continuing with having to lie and make up things in order to make your point.

I won’t respond to anything else you said because you are obviously just here to defend DH, which isn’t the point of the thread.

What is the point? You clearly don’t have one since you got all the facts wrong. When you demonstratively don’t even know what the skills you’re crying about actually do your post is absolutely worthless. Sticking your fingers in your ears when you don’t want to hear the skills don’t do what you think they did and continuing to shout that they’re “broken” based on your stupidity and ignorance accomplishes just one thing: you have no earthly clue what you’re talking about.

I only touched on DH because I know it well and I don’t play Mesmer. Unlike you, I don’t attempt to discuss minute details of things I don’t know. But hey, shockingly, someone else already pointed out you got that wrong too.

The only thing you’ve proven is that you cry about skills you don’t know about, you make-up the facts you don’t know (instead of looking it up,) and then declare you won’t respond when a silly thing like facts gets in the way of your crying. Given your refusal to respond to the rest (making up empty excuses to ignore the facts), it’s clear you’re now being intentionally dishonest to make your “point.”

IsilZha.3608:

.
.
.

I only touched on DH because I know it well and I don’t play Mesmer. Unlike you, I don’t attempt to discuss minute details of things I don’t know. But hey, shockingly, someone else already pointed out you got that wrong too.

The only thing you’ve proven is that you cry about skills you don’t know about, you make-up the facts you don’t know (instead of looking it up,) and then declare you won’t respond when a silly thing like facts gets in the way of your crying. Given your refusal to respond to the rest (making up empty excuses to ignore the facts), it’s clear you’re now being intentionally dishonest to make your “point.”

Dude i love you.

Oh no the meta is changing and I don’t want to! cries

Teckos.1305:

IsilZha.3608:

.
.
.

I only touched on DH because I know it well and I don’t play Mesmer. Unlike you, I don’t attempt to discuss minute details of things I don’t know. But hey, shockingly, someone else already pointed out you got that wrong too.

The only thing you’ve proven is that you cry about skills you don’t know about, you make-up the facts you don’t know (instead of looking it up,) and then declare you won’t respond when a silly thing like facts gets in the way of your crying. Given your refusal to respond to the rest (making up empty excuses to ignore the facts), it’s clear you’re now being intentionally dishonest to make your “point.”

Dude i love you.

This actually happens way more often than you could imagine, people just basically kittenposting cause they are bad and wont l2p

IsilZha.3608:

What is the point? You clearly don’t have one since you got all the facts wrong. When you demonstratively don’t even know what the skills you’re crying about actually do your post is absolutely worthless. Sticking your fingers in your ears when you don’t want to hear the skills don’t do what you think they did and continuing to shout that they’re “broken” based on your stupidity and ignorance accomplishes just one thing: you have no earthly clue what you’re talking about.

I only touched on DH because I know it well and I don’t play Mesmer. Unlike you, I don’t attempt to discuss minute details of things I don’t know. But hey, shockingly, someone else already pointed out you got that wrong too.

The only thing you’ve proven is that you cry about skills you don’t know about, you make-up the facts you don’t know (instead of looking it up,) and then declare you won’t respond when a silly thing like facts gets in the way of your crying. Given your refusal to respond to the rest (making up empty excuses to ignore the facts), it’s clear you’re now being intentionally dishonest to make your “point.”

Great so now im fabricating because I was outdated on the heal, whooptidoo.
Point still stand, the fact that you are hammering so hard one small details when my point is still valid, proves that again, you are just defending something for the sake of it.

Missing the point as per usual on this forum.

morrolan.9608:

they regard HOT itself as the balance patch before S1

Yes, because HoT was released 2 weeks before the leagues started, just like they said! How could we not have understood that HoT was the balance patch? Clearly we are very bad at reading comprehension.

Amadeus.5687:

Well of Precognition does not give “distortion” it gives “blur”. Blur is the same Mesmer get’s when using Sword #2 Blurred Frenzy, which gives you Evade Frames! Which means if you condi overload the mesmer he will still take dmg from the condition and dmg from ret if his hitting you. Evade frame granting skills have allways allowed you to capture points across the board, so this isn’t any different.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_S

Across the board, eh? Well guess what, when I get nuked by a necro and then stunned right as I triggering the trap of a DH with completely invisible AOE lines, I get wrecked by conditions during my 3-second evade that doesn’t contribute one iotia towards any capture point!

IsilZha.3608:

What is the point? You clearly don’t have one since you got all the facts wrong. When you demonstratively don’t even know what the skills you’re crying about actually do your post is absolutely worthless.

Your ad hominems would be much more effective if you used bold and italics more frequently.

Novuake.2691:

IsilZha.3608:

What is the point? You clearly don’t have one since you got all the facts wrong. When you demonstratively don’t even know what the skills you’re crying about actually do your post is absolutely worthless. Sticking your fingers in your ears when you don’t want to hear the skills don’t do what you think they did and continuing to shout that they’re “broken” based on your stupidity and ignorance accomplishes just one thing: you have no earthly clue what you’re talking about.

I only touched on DH because I know it well and I don’t play Mesmer. Unlike you, I don’t attempt to discuss minute details of things I don’t know. But hey, shockingly, someone else already pointed out you got that wrong too.

The only thing you’ve proven is that you cry about skills you don’t know about, you make-up the facts you don’t know (instead of looking it up,) and then declare you won’t respond when a silly thing like facts gets in the way of your crying. Given your refusal to respond to the rest (making up empty excuses to ignore the facts), it’s clear you’re now being intentionally dishonest to make your “point.”

Great so now im fabricating because I was outdated on the heal, whooptidoo.
Point still stand, the fact that you are hammering so hard one small details when my point is still valid, proves that again, you are just defending something for the sake of it.

Missing the point as per usual on this forum.

What point? You got nearly every fact about every skill wrong. You made claims about broken mechanics, when you don’t even know what those mechanics are. The details matter. I see you’ve completely ignored that 1) the new virtues do have trade-offs, and 2) that like every other trap in the game, all the traps have an activation time, separate from the cast time.

So then by all means – how does your point still stand about “broken mechanics” when you clearly are ignorant of the mechanics you’re complaining about, and under no uncertain terms got them wrong?

Soa Cirri.6012:

Your ad hominems would be much more effective if you used bold and italics more frequently.

Oh look, another psudo-intellectual who doesn’t actually know an ad hominem is. (Hint: it is not any kind of vague insult.) That’s cute that you think that a clear demonstration that the OP got all the actual facts wrong is somehow irrelevant and that you’ve tried to side-step making any kind of actual argument by ignoring the facts.

Hey, let’s ease you into it with a really simple and straight forward question: True or False – the OP was/is ignorant about the skill details he’s complaining about?

Wait, so I get 2 minor things wrong on DH and suddenly im wrong on every single fact?

Whos fabricating now? I am done with this conversation, hypocrisy is ridiculous.

Guys, just to be clear, DH refers to Dolyakhunter, the new term for Dragonhunter. I’m trying to make this a thing.

Now you may continue.

IsilZha.3608:

Oh look, another psudo-intellectual who doesn’t actually know an ad hominem is.

Hehe. You wanna do this? Okay.

An ad hominem is an attack on a person rather than their argument. Any attack you make on the character of the poster, using terms like

IsilZha.3608:

But hey, when you have to exaggerate, lie, and get the actual facts absolutely wrong to make your point

is a brazen ad hominem that does nothing to actually reinforce your argument, but does a great deal to make you sound condescending, so GG on that I guess.

If you wanna keep arguing that you haven’t made ad hominems… actually, go ahead. Please. Do so.

As for your question: Okay. Let’s tackle this, y’know, logically.

What is the OP’s argument? The OP’s argument is that certain mechanics are OP. The other kind of OP. Obviously.

Now the OP mis-stated the details of some of his supporting evidence. Sure. He even admitted it. However, the core of the argument is based entirely around the mechanics, as they are, being broken. Not around the specifics of the mechanics’ details.

So logically, if I could argue, “This radiator’s broken because the flux capacitor is misaligned,” by your “logic,” you could swoop in and say “HAHA YOU HAVE TO BE A STUPID IDIOT TO SAY THAT BECAUSE HERES A DIAGRAM RADIATORS DONT EVEN HAVE FLUX CAPACITORS! YOU MORON!”

What have you proven?
Radiatiors don’t have flux capacitors.

But you have not proven that the radiator is not broken.

In other words, you are guilty of the actual “fallacy” fallacy. Because parts of the argument weren’t true, you have seen fit to dismiss the entire OP’s OP. Interestingly, you have said that

You clearly don’t have one since you got all the facts wrong.

As the core of your fallacy, that statement is, itself, factually incorrect, because some of the OP’s other stated facts are not wrong, and you have admitted your lack of qualifications for verifying the points made about non-DH mechanics. Even the resident mesmer defender’s point in arguing against the OP on his facts, was, itself, factually incorrect. And not only is that statement of yours factually wrong because it is exaggerated, but it’s also disingenuous, and so could be construed as a lie, assuming you read and understood the OP.

IsilZha.3608:

But hey, when you have to exaggerate, lie, and get the actual facts absolutely wrong to make your point

Hmm.

But as you have entirely misconstrued the OP’s argument as “these details are true,” which is obviously weak, rather than the harder to attack “these details support my argument that the mechanics are broken,” that is yet another fallacy: a strawman.

But I’m just a pseudo-intellectual, so what do I know?

You are seriously complaining about DH?

I’m not a top pvp player but it took me less than 2 hours to find out how to beat them 1v1.

In teamfight it’s a bit more tricky…

The DH is a prof what you do not want to be unchecked…

But it’s so black and white seriously…

If a DH is in melee range get ready to dodge/break, if in range reflect/invu and send a bruiser out there.

Between these two they cannot do anything!

Aggrostemma.1703:

You are seriously complaining about DH?

I’m not a top pvp player but it took me less than 2 hours to find out how to beat them 1v1.

In teamfight it’s a bit more tricky…

The DH is a prof what you do not want to be unchecked…

But it’s so black and white seriously…

If a DH is in melee range get ready to dodge/break, if in range reflect/invu and send a bruiser out there.

Between these two they cannot do anything!

LOL.

Novuake.2691:

Wait, so I get 2 minor things wrong on DH and suddenly im wrong on every single fact?

Whos fabricating now? I am done with this conversation, hypocrisy is ridiculous.

If by “minor details” you meant to say the exact details you used as justification for them being “broken” that you got wrong then, yes. I see you still don’t have any new arguments to your bumbling and complaining about specific details that you couldn’t even get right.

But I’ve see you’ve decided to make yet another excuse to have no argument and flee. Ta.

Soa Cirri.6012:

IsilZha.3608:

Oh look, another psudo-intellectual who doesn’t actually know an ad hominem is.

Hehe. You wanna do this? Okay.

An ad hominem is an attack on a person rather than their argument. Any attack you make on the character of the poster, using terms like

IsilZha.3608:

But hey, when you have to exaggerate, lie, and get the actual facts absolutely wrong to make your point

is a brazen ad hominem that does nothing to actually reinforce your argument, but does a great deal to make you sound condescending, so GG on that I guess.

If you wanna keep arguing that you haven’t made ad hominems… actually, go ahead. Please. Do so.

Amazing, you googled it and still got it wrong. The main thrust of my argument is pretty clear (for someone paying attention): He declared several DH mechanics were “broken” and then demonstrated that he didn’t actually know what those mechanics were. He has failed to prove his point. My argument was not “you should ignore him because he’s an X” it’s “you should ignore him because he got the facts wrong and did not prove his assertion.”

As for your question: Okay. Let’s tackle this, y’know, logically.

What is the OP’s argument? The OP’s argument is that certain mechanics are OP. The other kind of OP. Obviously.

Now the OP mis-stated the details of some of his supporting evidence. Sure. He even admitted it. However, the core of the argument is based entirely around the mechanics, as they are, being broken. Not around the specifics of the mechanics’ details.

Are you for real? The mechanics are the specific details and they are the core part that actually matters. Otherwise you’re arguing over imaginary mechanics that don’t exist. He argued specific mechanics were broken, and his evidence for the mechanics being broken were factually wrong.

- Stated that Justice is a hard pull on short cooldown and compared it to an Engineer pull being on a 25 second cooldown. This was false – the hard pull is nearly double the cooldown of his example of something that he considered to not be broken. Ignores that it can be evaded can be broken with range, or nullified with stability.
- Stated that the new virtues have “no trade-off.” This has to be willful ignorance because they have clear trade-offs. He has offered up no dispute of the trade-offs I pointed out.
- Stated that Guardian traps are broken because they’re instant cast, calling it “instacast CC or healing.” Both of these are false. There is no instant cast heal trap, and they still have an activation time – they do not take effect instantly. Even if dropped right at your feet you can still evade the two instant-cast traps entirely.

His entire argument for those things being mechanically broken is based on details he left out or just plain made up/assumed. He was too lazy to look it up, and it’s all up on the wiki.

So logically, if I could argue, “This radiator’s broken because the flux capacitor is misaligned,” by your “logic,” you could swoop in and say “HAHA YOU HAVE TO BE A STUPID IDIOT TO SAY THAT BECAUSE HERES A DIAGRAM RADIATORS DONT EVEN HAVE FLUX CAPACITORS! YOU MORON!”

What have you proven?
Radiatiors don’t have flux capacitors.

But you have not proven that the radiator is not broken.

OP has failed to prove his point. The burden of proof doesn’t suddenly shift to me. He made the claim, he has to back it up. And he did not back it up with facts, but with knee-jerk guesses and ignorance. He did not prove his point. I don’t suddenly have to disprove something he never proved in the first place. This is really basic logic. OP is the one making the assertion, not me.

In other words, you are guilty of the actual “fallacy” fallacy. Because parts of the argument weren’t true, you have seen fit to dismiss the entire OP’s OP. Interestingly, you have said that

You clearly don’t have one since you got all the facts wrong.

As the core of your fallacy, that statement is, itself, factually incorrect, because some of the OP’s other stated facts are not wrong, and you have admitted your lack of qualifications for verifying the points made about non-DH mechanics. Even the resident mesmer defender’s point in arguing against the OP on his facts, was, itself, factually incorrect. And not only is that statement of yours factually wrong because it is exaggerated, but it’s also disingenuous, and so could be construed as a lie, assuming you read and understood the OP.

Oh that’s interesting. You ignore the actual point being made in favor of warbbling over the minutiae of a single word, and then erroneously conflate it to the entire argument. Yes, I already said I wasn’t commenting on the mesmer, and I’m not. You going back to it is entirely irrelevant.

IsilZha.3608:

But hey, when you have to exaggerate, lie, and get the actual facts absolutely wrong to make your point

Hmm.

But as you have entirely misconstrued the OP’s argument as “these details are true,” which is obviously weak, rather than the harder to attack “these details support my argument that the mechanics are broken,” that is yet another fallacy: a strawman.

Now you’re just throwing out terms without knowing what they mean, or how they apply. As I explained above in great detail, his “these details support my argument that the mechanics are broken” is not hard to attack, since he got the details wrong. He has very little to nothing to support his argument about broken mechanics when the mechanic’s he explicitly says are a problem don’t exist.

But I’m just a pseudo-intellectual, so what do I know?

Clearly not very basic standards of logic and debate, like burden of proof. Or can I just start tossing out wild assertions based on made up facts and then demand that you disprove it even when my details are made-up or wrong? Or does that only work when you’re the one making the argument?

It’s also interesting to note that in all of this, you haven’t actually addressed the actual points being made of the thread whatsoever. Rather you’ve put all your effort into dancing around trying to weasel around it. So let’s try this again, I guess with more specific wording lest you spend another 3 paragraphs on single word irrelevancies: the mechanics he was arguing that are broken on the DH, which he argued were broken based on a) details completely left out, and b) just plain wrong information. Is this not correct? How can the DH mechanics he described be “broken” when his justification for them were things that just aren’t true? Will you actually answer these questions that directly pertain to the actual topic, or will you go back grasping at straws and arguing about arguing?

The reason ANet won’t change anything based on a thread like this isn’t because they ignore it. They’ll look at it and say “that’s not how this works” and move on to something that actually has a basis in reality.

IsilZha.3608:

you haven’t actually addressed the actual points being made of the thread whatsoever

Man I needed some salt for my dinner, and you did not fail to deliver. ty.

Here’s what you’ve been doing: cherry picking incorrect details and basing your indignant bellicosity on the presumption that only those incorrect details frame the thrust of the argument about the mechanics themselves, despite having mentioned and completely ignored the evidence which holds up under scrutiny.

Keeping this short, I’ll narrow down on one of the many issues here. Here is clarification about what is relevant to the argument I refer to in this case:
“Virtues being 10x better than on base guardian with essentially no trade-off. " = The main argument against DH virtues
(‘10x’, using reading comprehension is of course not meant to be an objective quantitative figure, and is a substitution for “much” or “a lot”.)

So in effect, this is the OP’s argument: DH virtues are “much” better than core/base virtues with no trade-off.
Now it seems obvious, again, using reading comprehension, to see, given the comparisons used in this one sentence, that the DH virtues are being compared to the base virtues, and the argument being made that superiority of the DH virtues come without cost to the build itself.

Now, I’m just going to isolate SoJ for the sake of expediency, and because it was the most detailed “rebuttal,” given that the others were throwaway one-liners without a serious comparison being made.

The OP assertion was:
SoJ has a 20 second CD, is a pull, does power and condition damage, has a 1/4sec cast time, is barely telegraphed, and is unblockable. The contextual assertion is that this is better than a base VoJ, which is merely a periodic burn and an active aoe party burn.

Do you seriously believe that a weak passive/aoe burn and a weak party burn (considering this is the PvP forum, and in PvP full party benefits from active VoJ are laughably unlikely) is an equal, horizontal shift from SoJ, which can cripple and vuln as well as burn and be a pull?

When given the option between those two choices, are you seriously saying that, because SoJ needs to be aimed at all, can’t always hit multiple targets (which is only the benefit of a traited VoJ btw, which ALSO affects SoJ), can be evaded, and has a cast time, you would seriously scratch your chin and think, “Hmmm… which do I really want more? They’re both so good.”

Because saying his argument is wrong is essentially arguing just that.

Disingenuous is putting it very generously.

The skill was also compared to the engie magnet, which has 5 times the cast time, an obvious magnety animation, and does no damage at all.

You pointed out that the cooldown was 40 seconds, not 20. You also said, and reiterating that this was a comparison to engie pull afterwards, you clarify afterwards that you yourself are comparing specifically to the “other pull,” presumably being the engie pull as that was the only other one mentioned.

IsilZha.3608:

the Spear pull is on a separate cool down which is nearly double your example of another pull.

So let’s proceed using this comparison now.

1. you have to be facing the target
-engie pull is the same, so this isn’t a comparative disadvantage
2. cast time
-DH is .25sec, engie is 1.25sec. That’s a 500% difference in favor of the DH pull
3. it only hits one target
-except when it hits multiple, according to your own words, which makes it a comparative advantage to the single-target engie pull
4. can be evaded
-this is not a disadvantage over the engie pull, and the .25sec cast time makes it significantly harder to evade than the engie pull, along with its quicker-erg-harder-to-read-animation
5. cooldown
-DH is 40, engie is 25. THIS IS THE ONE FACTUAL INACCURACY MADE IN THE OP ON THIS ENTIRE ISSUE
And you left out this:
Does damage
-Engie pull does 0 damage
Is free, and slotted automatically on DH
-Engie needs to slot repair kit in the utility bar in order to gain this utility

So. What are the major advantages of the SoJ over engie? The 5xsuperiority of the cast time, the (2?3?5x? the wiki has very little information, and states only the 20second cooldown and passive effects, making it hard to verify this by merely researching it, so your extensive DH experience would help in this matter) superiority of the number of targets, and its free addition to the virtues bar, and direct and condi damage. Disadvantages? A roughly 1.5x cooldown.

And yet, despite the fact that cooldown is the ONE thing not in SoJ’s favor, it is the ONE thing you singled out in comparison and have been harping on since the first post, I would guess because it serves your point that the DH mechanics are not overpowered.

IsilZha.3608:

when you have to exaggerate, lie, and get the actual facts absolutely wrong to make your point, it’s pretty clear even you didn’t think the facts were actually enough to make it sound as bad as you wanted.

Please.

Soa Cirri.6012:

Keeping this short, I’ll narrow down on one of the many issues here. Here is clarification about what is relevant to the argument I refer to in this case:
“Virtues being 10x better than on base guardian with essentially no trade-off. " = The main argument against DH virtues
(‘10x’, using reading comprehension is of course not meant to be an objective quantitative figure, and is a substitution for “much” or “a lot”.)

So in effect, this is the OP’s argument: DH virtues are “much” better than core/base virtues with no trade-off.
Now it seems obvious, again, using reading comprehension, to see, given the comparisons used in this one sentence, that the DH virtues are being compared to the base virtues, and the argument being made that superiority of the DH virtues come without cost to the build itself.

Thank you captain obvious. Please quote me where I took the “10x better” as an absolute statement. Go ahead… no? Oh that’s right, I didn’t. For the same reason, it’s not proof of anything, just a general statement that the Elite Spec virtues are better. Just like traiting the base specs up makes them better than the base. Weird.

reading comprehension

Oh god, the irony. Let’s see why…

Now, I’m just going to isolate SoJ for the sake of expediency, and because it was the most detailed “rebuttal,” given that the others were throwaway one-liners without a serious comparison being made.

The OP assertion was:
SoJ has a 20 second CD, is a pull, does power and condition damage, has a 1/4sec cast time, is barely telegraphed, and is unblockable. The contextual assertion is that this is better than a base VoJ, which is merely a periodic burn and an active aoe party burn.

Do you seriously believe that a weak passive/aoe burn and a weak party burn (considering this is the PvP forum, and in PvP full party benefits from active VoJ are laughably unlikely) is an equal, horizontal shift from SoJ, which can cripple and vuln as well as burn and be a pull?

When given the option between those two choices, are you seriously saying that, because SoJ needs to be aimed at all, can’t always hit multiple targets (which is only the benefit of a traited VoJ btw, which ALSO affects SoJ), can be evaded, and has a cast time, you would seriously scratch your chin and think, “Hmmm… which do I really want more? They’re both so good.”

Because saying his argument is wrong is essentially arguing just that.

I don’t recall saying that the elite spec virtues were not better than the base… hmmm, perhaps you could quote where I said that? Oh? I didn’t? Okay… Who are you actually arguing against?

Disingenuous is putting it very generously.

The skill was also compared to the engie magnet, which has 5 times the cast time, an obvious magnety animation, and does no damage at all.

You pointed out that the cooldown was 40 seconds, not 20. You also said, and reiterating that this was a comparison to engie pull afterwards, you clarify afterwards that you yourself are comparing specifically to the “other pull,” presumably being the engie pull as that was the only other one mentioned.

Two skills don’t do the exact same thing (one with a much longer cool down) – news at 11.

Oh, now it’s reading comprehension time!

IsilZha.3608:

the Spear pull is on a separate cool down which is nearly double your example of another pull.

So let’s proceed using this comparison now.

1. you have to be facing the target
-engie pull is the same, so this isn’t a comparative disadvantage
2. cast time
-DH is .25sec, engie is 1.25sec. That’s a 500% difference in favor of the DH pull
3. it only hits one target
-except when it hits multiple, according to your own words, which makes it a comparative advantage to the single-target engie pull
4. can be evaded
-this is not a disadvantage over the engie pull, and the .25sec cast time makes it significantly harder to evade than the engie pull, along with its quicker-erg-harder-to-read-animation
5. cooldown
-DH is 40, engie is 25. THIS IS THE ONE FACTUAL INACCURACY MADE IN THE OP ON THIS ENTIRE ISSUE
And you left out this:
Does damage
-Engie pull does 0 damage
Is free, and slotted automatically on DH
-Engie needs to slot repair kit in the utility bar in order to gain this utility

So. What are the major advantages of the SoJ over engie? The 5xsuperiority of the cast time, the (2?3?5x? the wiki has very little information, and states only the 20second cooldown and passive effects, making it hard to verify this by merely researching it, so your extensive DH experience would help in this matter) superiority of the number of targets, and its free addition to the virtues bar, and direct and condi damage. Disadvantages? A roughly 1.5x cooldown.

And yet, despite the fact that cooldown is the ONE thing not in SoJ’s favor, it is the ONE thing you singled out in comparison and have been harping on since the first post, I would guess because it serves your point that the DH mechanics are not overpowered.

All those comparisons and time spent… too bad I could’ve sworn they weren’t being compared to the engineer, but the declaration that they “had no trade-offs” (compared to the base virtues.) Oh right, that’s exactly what it was.

IsilZha.3608:

Hey let’s look at a few things here…

Novuake.2691:

2.1 Virtues being 10x better than on base guardian with essentially no trade-off.

lol

Justice: Have to be facing target, cast time, generally single target (can hit multiple, but have to be lined up), can be evaded. The pull has a 40 second cooldown.
Resolve: Obvious cast time/delay that can and does get interrupted
Courage: Now has a cast time – cannot be used in the middle of another action.

Clear trade-offs – and you just left out/ignored the fact that the Spear pull is on a separate cool down which is nearly double your example of another pull.

Why yes, it appears you’ve failed to actually read what I was responding to and wrote up a long rebuttal to an argument I didn’t make. I even quoted it for you (again.) Oops. Abort? Retry? Fail?

IsilZha.3608:

just a general statement that the Elite Spec virtues are better. Just like traiting the base specs up makes them better than the base.

IsilZha.3608:

I don’t recall saying that the elite spec virtues were not better than the base…

So according to you:
1 Elite virtues are much better

IsilZha.3608:

Have to be facing target, cast time, generally single target (can hit multiple, but have to be lined up), can be evaded. The pull has a *40 second cooldown.

2 But it’s still worth mentioning all of their shortcomings as if they’re not negligible in comparison to the weakness of the base

Do you not see how that’s disingenuous? Even a little bit? Like… a teeny tiny bit?

If the argument is “DH virtues > base, with no trade-offs”, and your argument is “there are negligible trade-offs” you consider the entire argument ridiculous and utterly wrong? Because you’ve been using mighty condescending language about the OP, going so far as to call the entire thing factually wrong, which means declaring his DH>base virtues argument factually wrong as well.

IsilZha.3608:

you got all the facts wrong.

(Your hyperbolic emphasis, not mine).

So… is all of it wrong or is only some of it wrong?

IsilZha.3608:

All those comparisons and time spent… too bad I could’ve sworn they weren’t being compared to the engineer, but the declaration that they “had no trade-offs” (compared to the base virtues.) Oh right, that’s exactly what it was.

IsilZha.3608:

the Spear pull is on a separate cool down which is nearly double your example of another pull.

…What other pull? No other pull was invoked in comparison aside from the engie pull. So unless you’re desiring to introduce another mystery skill with a pull and a 25 second cooldown, I’m going to assume you are objectively comparing SoJ and engie pull.

But according to you, the only advantage/disadvantage worth mentioning about a skill when comparing it to another skill, when a list of other comparisons had been made in the OP (which you saw fit to ignore) is… the cooldown, alone?

Is that the only measure by which to compare skills? If something has a higher cooldown by 1.6times it’s automatically not in need of a rework or broken, discounting number of targets, damage, cast time, etc?

Please, do continue.

Soa Cirri.6012:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elixir_S

Across the board, eh? Well guess what, when I get nuked by a necro and then stunned right as I triggering the trap of a DH with completely invisible AOE lines, I get wrecked by conditions during my 3-second evade that doesn’t contribute one iotia towards any capture point!

See this is rather embarrassing with 1000+ hours on an Engineer!
In my defence tho! I had a break doing living world Season 1, like the entire thingie and the change have probaly come back then! And since I came back I honestly haven’t really used it
Because elixir S actually used to be a invulnerability (where you also could use your kits!) I went back to some of my old videos and there it’s a invulnerability! They would be shameless to link to, so here is the legendary medicat where you can see it:
https://youtu.be/0pfO5s9pi0c?t=43s

So in my head that actually were a invulnerability granting skill and I ofc. should have looked it up! That said, this seems more like Anet not being consistent in how they do stuff or just them nerfing a part of a skill without remebering the other part of it <.<
Because when they changed that to a evade they should have had removed not contriputing to point capture

With that said… it still dosn’t change the point that IsilZha and I am trying to make:
What the OP is telling us is he feels this and that is broken, which is an opinion…. It’s not a fact they are broken. Which is totally fine, everyone can have an opinion! But when he base his opinion on facts which are wrong, that honestly makes hi opinion invalid!

Whatever these mechanics IS broken or OP I’m not interesed in discussing, because I don’t do sPVP on high enough plan to do so…. But he should at least base his opinion on the real facts

Amadeus.5687:

this seems more like Anet not being consistent in how they do stuff or just them nerfing a part of a skill without remebering the other part of it

Definitely probably right on the money, there.

But the point kind of stands that evade frames should = nocap, which was the point of the OP (whether he called it blur or displacement, which, to be fair, are as easy to get confused as the various unrelated rulings Anet has made about skills over the years). I mean, for the engie that’s the case, so why is mesmer exempt? If anything, isn’t that disparity proof of a legitimate issue or “breakage”?

Soa Cirri.6012:

indignant bellicosity

What lugubrious drollery!