Guild Wars 2

If they had some way of seeing what the most popular builds are. An NPC you go to in HotM where he just lists the top 10 most common builds for spvp and tpvp. Allow a small margin of difference (1-2 traits and skills) when counting.

I was thinking to myself, if there was a wide swath of skill splits for pvp (which is needed, really), how would a pve player that just stepped into pvp know how to make heads or tails of anything? Also useful for players wishing to try a new profession. Useful for those that wish to try to create “counter” builds to the meta.

Problems I foresee:

• requires build template support (maybe it will be released before next century)
• makes obvious how stale the meta is when these top builds don’t ever change.

It’s important to help curb the frustrations new players have by at least giving them a good starting point, they can then modify their specs as they play them to their liking.

Problem is that enforces the meta. I dont think that’s what the developers want. They want people to keep experimenting other options and find ways around the meta.

What we do need though, and I fully agree, is a better tutorial introducing players to build-making. Show them an example of how to connect the dots of your build through traits

Quickfoot Katana.8642:

Problem is that enforces the meta. I dont think that’s what the developers want. They want people to keep experimenting other options and find ways around the meta.

ya that could be true, but just as it makes it easy to create a meta, it makes it easy to create a counter-meta. “what is the most popular build? i’ll roll a counter to that”

there are already ways to get access to popular builds, but they are not easily accessible to new players, anyone that plays often enough will know what they are. lack of information is a poor way to encourage experimentation. there are things that work and things that don’t. at least start with something that does.

Observer mode so new guys could know how to play what to use and so on.

Hunting streamers with 1% success rate isn’t something newcomers will do.

I think if anet’s default build (the one get on first entry to the mists) was closer to current meta, say mid dps/defensive roamer, it would go along way. Anet can probably update these with their biweekly/monthly patches. But not sure if will encourage or discourage meta.

Another thing: has anyone ever started a sort of basic chart of class skills and counters to those skills? Nothing super detailed, just enough for new players to have a resource if they feel they can’t deal with a common problem from X class. I personally would love to see a chart with suggestions on how to deal with stealth or grenade spams, etc.

Hahaha you could have the really powerful templates drop randomly from black lion chests

Just a stupid joke. As someone who has played mainly PvE and WvW and has only dabbled in PvP, this would be very much welcome. Thanks for the response

Templates? What are these templates they speak of? Sounds almost too good to be true. …like something we couldn’t live without if we had been given them last year…

How about a training mode/arena (custom arenas?) with semi programmable class bots. Pick one or more classes with something resembling current meta and able setup the bot with a few basic sequences (burst/bunker/skill level) or full auto to train against. Could be used for new players and more experienced ones to figure out tough situations. Something a few steps up from the NPC’s in the mists.

Too crazy?

This is such a bad idea. This would just promote more ignorance. The people who copy/paste builds and don’t even read through all of their traits and weapon skills are the same people who QQ on forums: “My class is underpowered”

Evan Lesh.3295:

This is a really good idea; one that we’ve already talked a lot about. With templates, we’d want to give new players a few default builds to try instead of the one. Templates would also make highlighting other players’ builds much easier.

Templates! This game seriously needs templates.

We need this now. <3

Geff.1930:

This is such a bad idea. This would just promote more ignorance. The people who copy/paste builds and don’t even read through all of their traits and weapon skills are the same people who QQ on forums: “My class is underpowered”

the initial experience of playing with a bad build is one that makes people quit. if people play with a good build, even if they don’t fully understand it, they become engaged. if people are engaged, they will begin to care more about customizing their builds.

We needed build templates a year ago. Thanks!

Grackleflint.4956:

Scroll to the bottom for TL;DR

I for one am against promoting so called “optimized” builds. There should always be experimentation and growth in builds. I run a 3 Turret/1 Kit build that is considered sub-par, but I always bring massive amounts of control and sustained damage to every fight I participate in. Even when I score/prevent multiple stomps, revive my teammates over and over, and win the majority of my 1v1 encounters I get asked after a loss “So, what build are you running? I haven’t heard of it. Why don’t you run HGH?”

Because I’m comfortable and fluid when I play my build and I contribute more to my team. Playing my build is second nature and my timing proves it.

TL;DR
As far as new players entering pvp there should be more automated guides and tutorials available. For example, they should be able to enter a map where the enemy team consists of 5 computer controlled npcs. This way they can ease into group dynamics slowly instead of jumping into the deep end of the 8v8 zergfest of sPvP.

lol your tldr has nothing to do with your main post

anyway, having easy access to popular builds will likely have little effect on what people initially run. They will almost certainly play whatever they had in pve. and then they will get owned often, and maybe just before quitting they will try them out. and it has only a positive effect on people trying to customize their build, since they will be winning more often and have an easier vantage point from which to understand the game and how they may want to alter the build to suit their needs. low barrier to entry to the meta should never be confused for restricting personal freedom.

i don’t think people are understanding how this game works.
there are “meta” builds. popular builds that everyone plays. they are considered to be the most competitive. new players don’t have access to these “meta” builds, because they may not even understand that such a thing exists. even if they do, they have difficulty finding an appropriate one (lots of gw2 build websites with outdated builds, etc).
new players are being competitively crippled by not knowing what the meta is. each individual person may then decide to use or not use this information, and neither decision has a negative impact on the game.

I definitely agree, that for a new PvP player it is really overwhelming to get into mists and be faced with all the traits and utility skills, weapons sets, amor and weapon runes… Unfortunately there are many ways to go wrong in this game when making your own build if you are not familiar with how pvp works here and what the purpose of your character should be.

I emphasized the word purpose because I think, that when pre-made templates are available for new players to try, those templates should also have a description of what the build was supposed to be doing, it’s strengths and it’s weaknesses, etc. You know… the general idea. It will also help new players to understand classes better, and to understand the fact, that classes have their roles in tpvp, and that not all builds are made to be superstrong in 1v1. Sadly, Hot-Join creates the opposite impression. Everyone wants to be strong 1v1 there and farm as many points as possible.

Adding starter tamplates is a big thing for new players. I have been playing since release and even I sometimes find myself discouraged trying to find a new working build for a class that I don’t know very well…

samo.1054:

I definitely agree, that for a new PvP player it is really overwhelming to get into mists and be faced with all the traits and utility skills, weapons sets, amor and weapon runes… Unfortunately there are many ways to go wrong in this game when making your own build if you are not familiar with how pvp works here and what the purpose of your character should be.

I emphasized the word purpose because I think, that when pre-made templates are available for new players to try, those templates should also have a description of what the build was supposed to be doing, it’s strengths and it’s weaknesses, etc. You know… the general idea. It will also help new players to understand classes better, and to understand the fact, that classes have their roles in tpvp, and that not all builds are made to be superstrong in 1v1. Sadly, Hot-Join creates the opposite impression. Everyone wants to be strong 1v1 there and farm as many points as possible.

Adding starter tamplates is a big thing for new players. I have been playing since release and even I sometimes find myself discouraged trying to find a new working build for a class that I don’t know very well…

i was talking about having an automatic system (npc you can talk to is best i think) that displays what popular builds are being run this week. starter templates that don’t suck are a good 2nd place. if these can be explained to a new player then all the better. the problem we run into if it’s not being constantly updated, is several patches later the starter builds are already out of favor. and if it’s an automatic system then it’s problematic to give build descriptions.

Problem I see is that a build isn’t what you always need. There is a certain amount of skill or strategy behind a build that makes it ‘click’.

I don’t agree with this idea at all. I think it’s a terrible idea.

Evan Lesh.3295:

This is a really good idea; one that we’ve already talked a lot about. With templates, we’d want to give new players a few default builds to try instead of the one. Templates would also make highlighting other players’ builds much easier.

I think you need to suggest how to play each of these default templates. Like “Earn 10 Skimirsher Achievements” for Roamers or “Earn 10 Point Defender Achievements” for bunker builds. Maybe for back point defender builds suggest earning 5 Defender and 5 Skirmisher Achieves. Make the team fighter builds, get a bunch of Assists.

P.S. Maybe make a progression system out of this?

TGSlasher.1458:

Problem I see is that a build isn’t what you always need. There is a certain amount of skill or strategy behind a build that makes it ‘click’.

yes, there is a difference between skill and your build. at least get the noob up to speed with an appropriate build, then he can figure out how to play skillfully as normal.

Jasher.6580:

I don’t agree with this idea at all. I think it’s a terrible idea.

why

milo.6942:

why

Because it would discourage experimentation, learning and the thrill of personal discovery.

Jasher.6580:

milo.6942:

why

Because it would discourage experimentation, learning and the thrill of personal discovery.

in what way are you not just making this up

milo.6942:

Jasher.6580:

milo.6942:

why

Because it would discourage experimentation, learning and the thrill of personal discovery.

in what way are you not just making this up

If new people come into the game and they have set templates to choose from… when they play with it and they see that, “Oh this works.”… There is zero reason for them to read up on trait descriptions… browse community forums and keep abreast on the findings of subject matter experts.

It takes away from community building and it gives players one less reason to delve into the intricacies of the individual professions.

Good solution. Theorycrafting is something you can start with, when you understand the meta and all its influences. Therfore, it’s good to provide these builds to not so experienced players and give them an overview what and mabye even why this is played. Like a short tutorial of the build, why the mesmer in this build brings portal with him or for what boon-steal of a S/D-thief is good for.

Mabye it can create a lazy player-base, which just stick to these common builds. But then they actually understand why things happen or what happened. Many beginners don’t understand why they die from a burst. Such videos and the builds for it would give these players an insight of how it works.

There needs to be a demand of players seeking information to encourage the growth of a gaming community. It adds depth. Anything that takes away from that journey can only harm the game.

Jasher.6580:

There needs to be a demand of players seeking information to encourage the growth of a gaming community. It adds depth. Anything that takes away from that journey can only harm the game.

The higher-scene of PvP is constantly trying to improve their builds through theorycrafting. As allrdy said, it would create a lazy playerbase. Whatever, you allrdy can see all builds played on twitch. Beginners are just not aware of this. So this is the only difference. Or don’t you have the feeling that 99% of players , whom are average in PvP, are not playing meta-builds? I doubt

Jasher, before anyone can begin to care about the game, they have to be given a reason to care. if new players get crushed in spectacular fashion every time they play, and hear their team complain about them running weird pve builds, they will just quit. most are not going to care to try and figure things out the hard way.

as Empathetic Fighter said, you can’t begin to know what you’re doing when you’re making a new build, unless you have experience with what the meta is and the capabilities of your class. by giving a good build to noobs, they have a head start on that path.

Those that are interested in creating their own builds will always do so, and those that copy and paste will always do so. At least if the most popular builds where readily available it would give people a better chance at succeeding with a copy and paste build because they will fit the current meta.
When i first started PvP I copied and pasted a build because I knew nothing, like most fresh PvPers. Within a few games, when i had got used to PvP mechanics and the way the build played, I changed it up to suit my play style. Now that I’m more confident in the PvP environment I’m always changing things and testing new ideas.

I think people just need a nudge in the right direction.

I don’t really like the idea of a list of popular builds, that way we will just see everyone running around exactly the same, but I am for the idea of giving different options. For example each new played has the option of an offensive, a defensive and a middle of the road option.

This idea sure brings back memories…oh the good old Abominable Snowman and Paladin (wammo!) warrior prebuilds.
:’)

Simon Sickboy.6250:

Those that are interested in creating their own builds will always do so, and those that copy and paste will always do so. At least if the most popular builds where readily available it would give people a better chance at succeeding with a copy and paste build because they will fit the current meta.
When i first started PvP I copied and pasted a build because I knew nothing, like most fresh PvPers. Within a few games, when i had got used to PvP mechanics and the way the build played, I changed it up to suit my play style. Now that I’m more confident in the PvP environment I’m always changing things and testing new ideas.

I think people just need a nudge in the right direction.

I don’t really like the idea of a list of popular builds, that way we will just see everyone running around exactly the same, but I am for the idea of giving different options. For example each new played has the option of an offensive, a defensive and a middle of the road option.

+1 Exactly my scenario about a month ago when I started. Played for a day or two with default build and had a had a hard time then decicded “hey, what am I doing? I’ve got a great PVE build, I’ll use that…” – even worse! Really rough go the first week (and ready to give up) – then a guild member sent out a reddit link that had a bunch of meta build and immediately got some success. Only after playing with a successful build did I start to make it my own with a few chances here and there – which also led to experimenting and discovery. Imho builds are critical for new players.

And to reiterate points above – some sort of interactive tutorial that explains build/maps/secondary mechanics would be huge. Really like the idea of an npc map where players can actually play full games without constantly getting wiped. And even better if you can customize the npc map. The npcs in the mists don’t do much for this kind of learning…

What about just having build info on the gw2 wiki site? The gw1 wiki had a great variety of build for many different situations that players could look up. It wouldn’t just show gear and skills, but it would explain how to use the build, along with counters to the build itself.

The gw2 wiki lacks this area of content (I don’t see it anyway, and if it does, it needs to be more easily found). The wiki could show popular/strong builds. Along with each build submission would be a guide to use them, and counters against the build. So if a player gets destroyed by some build, that player could search for the build on the wiki and look up the possible counters and tips against the build!

Also, if these builds go on the wiki rather than in-game itself, it would probably be easier to keep them up to date.

Anet has been promoting the gw2 wiki lately, and if they promote the wiki in the launcher, then more new plays would go to it and see builds they could possibly use in pvp.

tldr: Put builds and guides to using/countering them on the Guild Wars 2 wiki.

Geff.1930:

This is such a bad idea. This would just promote more ignorance. The people who copy/paste builds and don’t even read through all of their traits and weapon skills are the same people who QQ on forums: “My class is underpowered”

What generally happens imo is people use a popular cookie cutter build go into spvp with it and see how they like it and then tweak over time. You expect too much out of the average player to know everything day one and to understand everythign about a build before using it. Thats called oo high a barrier to entry for a lot of people and it definitely exists. Providing a few common template builds for each profession would 100% be helpful for the new player.

If they do include templates, they should not allow build switching via templates while in a match. That would bring too much volatility to a fight as players rely a great deal on prediction. If everyone has the ability to come back with a different build after they die how can you predict?

Jasher.6580:

milo.6942:

Jasher.6580:

milo.6942:

why

Because it would discourage experimentation, learning and the thrill of personal discovery.

in what way are you not just making this up

If new people come into the game and they have set templates to choose from… when they play with it and they see that, “Oh this works.”… There is zero reason for them to read up on trait descriptions… browse community forums and keep abreast on the findings of subject matter experts.

It takes away from community building and it gives players one less reason to delve into the intricacies of the individual professions.

It gives them a foundation to build upon instead of being thrown into PvP without any knowledge of what the meta is. Every PvP game develops a meta, it’s inevitable. Templates allow newer players to get a set of builds that are viable and effective, and they learn from there. Also you’re giving build templates way too much credit. They aren’t going to be the most optimal, they aren’t going to come with variables. That’s for the player to figure out and adapt. LoL is a prime example of this. Every champion has recommended items (much like a template), but that’s it. There’s going to be items that are awful in x scenario and items that are amazing in y scenario. The player uses the recommended item list as a foundation for a solid build and as they play the game, they learn to tweak what works. This also applies to GW2.

Right now players who don’t know viable builds and don’t understand the meta are going in blind and are most likely going to be a burden to any team while their hopes of enjoying PvP diminish. Adding templates as a stepping stone isn’t going to ruin anything. New builds will still form and be discussed by the community because no one wants a stagnant meta. Templates in GW1 didn’t do anything that you’ve suggested, GW2 won’t be different in that aspect.

you know what would help new players? being able to play every class. and not be limited.

It would also be nice to link your build to chat or link traits at least. Yum.

templates for the love of dwayna.. give us templates O_O

I don’t think people are getting the point. Doing this would only facilitate the inevitability of people copy/pasting “meta” builds.

Nevertheless, what this also does is decrease the number of people visiting these third party sites/blogs/streams… which will have a significant and negative impact on the community and pioneers.

People being handed “popular” or “meta” builds… the community will no longer be like… “Hey, I’m running Jumper’s Sword/Dagger build….” instead it will be… “Who’s Jumper?” or “Team Paradigm”

Now I know it wont be the case for everyone… of course not… I’m not trying to generalize. But you can’t deny the fact that it will deter some potential “fans” since it lessens the need to research and ask around.

As a new player right now my interest extents as far as learning to play and having some success. I don’t know who Team Paradigm is (or Jumper) – just want to try and enjoy pvp. The easier it is for me to get into the game, the more likely I will continue playing and encourage others to play.

Chances are if I get hooked, I’ll end up following the external community for more depth and/or player and team info anyways so I don’t think my using a popular build is a threat to them. Anet could even credit where they sourced the build for those who are interested.

I think people have forgotten what it’s like to not know anything about this game. Also, they have a weird, emotionally-tinted view of what the game is right now vs what it would be with this change.

Guys, there’s already a copy-paste meta. It’s not like people all made up the builds they’re running. The only difference would be more players playing better builds. Really, it’s not like it’s the end of the world.

edit:
there are 2 classes of pvp players: those who “know” what the meta is, and those who have no clue. The difference in game experience between these two cannot be overstated. The first group is able to create new effective builds and experiment with various sigils, weapons, and classes while measuring their performance in terms of “better or worse than the meta”. The second group has no idea the performance he should expect from any particular class. He has no idea whether he is going in the right direction with his build, or barking up the wrong tree. The single most important difference between these 2 groups is actually not skill, it’s experience with the right builds so they can better judge other builds’ effectiveness. Not only that, but a meta build plays much better, and the new player will be less likely to quit in frustration.

I preordered the game before launch and played it for about a month. I quit because the pvp was just terrible. I come from a long line of tab targeting eq’esq pvp games and this one was just a cluster kitten of dodge spamming. So I quit because PvE alone isn’t entertaining.

I came back to the game because I hadn’t played any mmo’s in a long time due to they all sucking and being clones of each other. I noticed that the pvp in the game now is just a CC, Condition fest. It seems even more of cluster kitten to me now then it did at launch.

I really want to like the game because it’s beautiful and has fun things to do. But I just can’t seem to figure out how to stay alive for more then one millisecond in Spvp matches. All I see in games is ranged classes spamming conditions and then rolling around all over the place or going stealth every second while you die trying to either get away or figure out how you are targeting.

I always end up targeting some god kitten ed pet or turret because the person I had targeted went kittening stealth again. IT DRIVES ME kittenING CRAZY!!!!!!

Somebody help me out and give me some advice as a new returning pvper. And no I don’t want “Just spec conditions bro” as advice.

milo.6942:

I think people have forgotten what it’s like to not know anything about this game. Also, they have a weird, emotionally-tinted view of what the game is right now vs what it would be with this change.

Guys, there’s already a copy-paste meta. It’s not like people all made up the builds they’re running. The only difference would be more players playing better builds. Really, it’s not like it’s the end of the world.

edit:
there are 2 classes of pvp players: those who “know” what the meta is, and those who have no clue. The difference in game experience between these two cannot be overstated. The first group is able to create new effective builds and experiment with various sigils, weapons, and classes while measuring their performance in terms of “better or worse than the meta”. The second group has no idea the performance he should expect from any particular class. He has no idea whether he is going in the right direction with his build, or barking up the wrong tree. The single most important difference between these 2 groups is actually not skill, it’s experience with the right builds so they can better judge other builds’ effectiveness. Not only that, but a meta build plays much better, and the new player will be less likely to quit in frustration.

Perhaps a GW2 version of pvx wiki would also help.

The GW1 version: http://gwpvx.gamepedia.com/PvX_wiki (I don’t think I’ve ever used it myself, apart for pve farm builds, but I can imagine it could serve as a solid tool for newcomers or ppl new to a class).