Guild Wars 2

Hey people from the structured PvP!

I come today to talk about 1 thing since its quite late,

Why is guildwars2 not a reall competetive Esports.

First things first, what is needed to become an esports.
Balance, fair fights etc.

The most important aspect is everyone should be capable of beating everyone if they are actually better. No auto wins. No racial wins. No class wins. No proffesion wins.
NO assymetrical balance, It doesnt work like that in an Esports.

thats like saying in tennis, “you get the batminton racket and your opponent gets the superdeluxe reall tennis racket”

Its unfair it doesnt work. People WILL get turned of by this except the few profiting from getting the super deluxe reall tennis racket.

If you want to showcase whos the best, give people an even footing.

Examples of why i personally quit pvp in general. I cant play what i want to play because i have a role in the game. (no trinity? Then why u make staff support?)

The game currently is working with extremes.
10K light armor healthpool versus a 50K heavy armor healthpool. Is for example one of those extremes. The same could be said for certain builds. And for certain proffesions. (these extremes should not even be possible at all)

This needs to be toned down ALLOT. People need to be on a more equall even footing somuch that any prof can beat any prof. If this doesnt get added. This game is essentially rock papper scissors. And if id want to play rock papper scissors with someone .. then i would do that not pvp in gw2.

I never liked the concept of flipping a coin and be ‘lucky’, if your competetive you shouldnt either.

Skillfull games create skillfull winners.
Assymetrical balance kills this.

Teamplay should definatly be promoted but not in extremes like it is right now.
5 guys focussing 1 guy who doesnt have the right proffesion to quickly get out of there?
Bad balance. Every proffesions should have the chance to do so at an equall manner, In a different way.
Gw1 had the 55hp monk, we have every class that can bunker and never kill eachother.
Bad balance. another extreme. Tone it down.

I know i will most likely get flamed for vocallizing my opinion. But having played in a number of different ‘esports’ games at a decent level it seems that i always get back to the one where this distribution is the strongest.

Last but not least;
Balance updates. Weekly. You cannot know what is true balance if you havent tested the waters with everyone in the community at different metas.

That was all. Ty for reading hope i informed.

Are you the messiah of esports we have waited for?

@OP:

You are correct that balance is a big problem in this game. That said, PvP is not about 1v1, it is about team fights. That balance should be more around the team.

The issue is that there are too many builds that require no skill and still do really well (turret engi for example). Those are the items that need to be addressed.

while there are valid points in the post, it also comes out looking very sour, do you hold a grudge towards a specific class or?

i’ve never seen a 50k health heavy nor a 10k health light…

only 1 low health light and 1 high health heavy, are you an ele that dislikes fighting warriors? it might or might not be the case, but the post comes out looking like that.

It’s like you went up to a steaming pile of kitten, picked out a half digested oat and said, “see this is why it’s not safe to eat kitten. This oat has bacteria growing on it and is already half eaten.”

So… you’re not… wrong? But…

@Style, I have never said anything about 1v1, I just feel that balance is much closer if classes stand much closer. And the reason why is to adress exacly what your saying. There are no skill builds and you can remove them by decreasing there effectiveness by standardizing everyone in a more competetive mold.

@adozu, no it was just my interpretation of different healthpools because this is to me the biggest tell about proffesions not being equall. To be frank most problems i personally have is with condition spammers. Not warriors.

@ryston, Well someone has to go through the nasty stuff to show the core problems in my opinion and note that it was late

your opinion of balance in this game is very off…

classes have different health pools and toughness for a reason
can you imagine how op a guardian or ele or thief with 24k health would be?
it is because they have other utilities and heals that classes with more health do not have.
or in a thiefs case stealth and insane mobility

there is no 10k- 50k health pools..
no low tier health class would ever put no points into vitality.. so its more like 15k-25k

Class base health:
Warrior, Necromancer 18,372
Engineer, Ranger, Mesmer 15,082
Guardian, Thief, Elementalist 10,805

and for rock paper scissors game play,
yes some specs have very good chance of beating other specs,
but this is balanced as a team game not for 1v1s.
any profession can beat any profession,
but not every spec can beat every spec. (if they are both equal skill level)
thats how it was in gw1, and thats how it is in this game as well.

It is not 5 people focusing 1 guy with the wrong class,
for example people often focus the necromancer first.
why? he poses the greatest threat in team fights.
yes, he has some of the least defenses (also why he is in the highest tier health pool)
but he has to counter that with skilled positioning.

overall, balance in this game is not perfect, but it is in a good place imo.
every class is used in top tier game play, some a lot more than others,
but it is headed in the right direction.

Pokemon is more esports than gw2 will ever be and rng and matchup are a big part of it. You might not like rock-paper-scissors stuff but in a teamgame it is a pretty legit concept tbh.

Hardconters are not a problem…specs hardcountering way more than others are.

Condi necros for example can hardcounter engis pretty good but can be hardcountered by wars for example….specs like celestial axe sword war, celestial hambow, celestial d/d hardcounter many things and have pretty much no real counter aside from someone running pretty much the same stuff or just outplaying them, being good vs something and bad vs something else is ok…being good vs almost everything with no real drawbacks (Like most celestial specs) is what makes this pvp broken

Celestial D/D eles are hardcountered by anyone with boon stripping.

The only class that’s broken ATM is necro such beats:
All eles 100%
All warrs 80% at least
All thievss 90%
All guardians 60%
All rangers 100%
All engis 100%
All mesmers 70%

Keksmuffin.1450:

Pokemon is more esports than gw2 will ever be and rng and matchup are a big part of it. You might not like rock-paper-scissors stuff but in a teamgame it is a pretty legit concept tbh.

I wouldn’t say RNG is a big part of Pokemon. It definitely plays a part, but in most competitive matches it isn’t that big of an issue and usually mitigated by good prediction and smart play. Unless of course speed ties, in which case it can be kind of annoying.

Booms.2594:

The only class that’s broken ATM is necro such beats:
All eles 100%
All warrs 80% at least
All thievss 90%
All guardians 60%
All rangers 100%
All engis 100%
All mesmers 70%

What? Are you saying necro beats those classes? Or the other way around…. because honestly either way your kittening crazy.

Reikou.7068:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Pokemon is more esports than gw2 will ever be and rng and matchup are a big part of it. You might not like rock-paper-scissors stuff but in a teamgame it is a pretty legit concept tbh.

I wouldn’t say RNG is a big part of Pokemon. It definitely plays a part, but in most competitive matches it isn’t that big of an issue and usually mitigated by prediction. Unless of course speed ties, in which case it can be kind of annoying.

6,25% chance to crit, 30% chance to flinch, 25% chance to get fully paralyzed, 10% chance to miss; that are all common rolls that play a role in pretty much every match. Of course you can play arround it, the people who win usually are the better players. But RNG is a big part in pretty much every game. Damage rolls, crits and 50% chances to proc something exist in gw2 aswell.

But well… this post neither is about RNG nor about pokemon so I’m just gonna shut up now. :<

With all due respect,

1) No esports are 100% perfectly balanced.
2) Most top tier players adapt as balance and meta shifts anyway.
3) What makes an esports is strictly 110% return of investment, if you get back the money you put into tournament broadcasting etc you are esports. How does this happen? From advertising sponsorships which all revolve around exposure to viewers.

Viewership is what drives esports. As such it doesnt matter whether they are casual average or hardcore players, nor does it matter whether those players are good average or badly skilled players. If they are invested in watching tournaments then we are esports. The game must be easily understandable and watchable, something that gw2 can struggle with at times. It must also be exciting, when a close match or epic comeback or nail biting lord rush happens its hype as a motherkittener. When its not close its dull as with all games. A 18 minute domination in league of legends isn’t fun to watch either.

That said in its current state MOST of the matches are these dull blow out matches where it was clear that one team was just too strong the entire game. Better comeback mechanics need to be employed into all maps of conquest.

To improve esports of GW2 my top tips would be….

1) Provide SERIOUS incentives for casual players of varying skill levels to want to spend more time in pvp. Whether through gamemodes, leagues and ladders or even tangible incentives.

2) Try your best to improve the spectator mode, I’m unfortunately at a loss what specifics could be done here but an example is move away from AI pets n kitten.

3) Tweak secondary mechanics of all maps to provide better comeback mechanics, example is every 3 minutes the buffs on forest give an additional 10 points. SOMETHING like this.

NeXeD.3042:

Booms.2594:

The only class that’s broken ATM is necro such beats:
All eles 100%
All warrs 80% at least
All thievss 90%
All guardians 60%
All rangers 100%
All engis 100%
All mesmers 70%

What? Are you saying necro beats those classes? Or the other way around…. because honestly either way your kittening crazy.

necro wins those classes that amount with equally skilledplayers

Booms.2594:

NeXeD.3042:

Booms.2594:

The only class that’s broken ATM is necro such beats:
All eles 100%
All warrs 80% at least
All thievss 90%
All guardians 60%
All rangers 100%
All engis 100%
All mesmers 70%

What? Are you saying necro beats those classes? Or the other way around…. because honestly either way your kittening crazy.

necro wins those classes that amount with equally skilledplayers

Only if the equal amount of skill is close to 0

Blackmoa.3186:

Booms.2594:

NeXeD.3042:

Booms.2594:

The only class that’s broken ATM is necro such beats:
All eles 100%
All warrs 80% at least
All thievss 90%
All guardians 60%
All rangers 100%
All engis 100%
All mesmers 70%

What? Are you saying necro beats those classes? Or the other way around…. because honestly either way your kittening crazy.

necro wins those classes that amount with equally skilledplayers

Only if the equal amount of skill is close to 0

tell me what spec beats noscocs spec ty

So you watched nosoc arguably the best necro in pvp in the entire game and now think everyone is capable of that? Why isn’t every mesmer helseth, every theif sizer etc.

NeXeD.3042:

So you watched nosoc arguably the best necro in pvp in the entire game and now think everyone is capable of that? Why isn’t every mesmer helseth, every theif sizer etc.

Wouldn’t the fact that such a thing is possible be proof of the class’s potential vs these players?

NeXeD.3042:

So you watched nosoc arguably the best necro in pvp in the entire game and now think everyone is capable of that? Why isn’t every mesmer helseth, every theif sizer etc.

I have 15 hours and 31 mins on my necro. Running noscoc spec I went 20-0 in the 1v1 king of the hill server. The only thing that hard counters necro is random dodges. Ask any top tier player this (like me) and I’m 100% sure they agree with me; as this has been discussed already among the top players.

want an e-sport? make a game:

• fun to play
• fun to watch
• deep enough

Looks like somebody doesn’t understand how the rock/paper/scissors works in GW2

Every build is good at killing something and then bad at killing something else
The game is actually quite balanced at this point
This very dynamic makes you need to rely on your team and not just yourself

Even GW1 was like this

ErazorZ.5209:

Gw1 had the 55hp monk, we have every class that can bunker and never kill eachother.

I don’t even know why you’re saying this… 55hp monk was never a viable PvP option in GW1 with enchantment stripping etc. Why are you even giving this even an example? Especially given how the game mechanics between the two games are vastly different.

I agree with toning down certain things, but by saying everything needs to be toned down?

competitive shouldn’t be used in a game that has immobilize bug killing players for almost 2 years, 2 kittening years….. wars were started and finished it that time frame…

playing is fun if you can swallow a lot of crap this game can offer but watching tournies? whats fun about watching bunch of midgets fighting on points? if i wanted to watch that i would watch midget porn, at least there would be actually kittening in it and not “shoutcasters” (imagine biggest " microsoft word can produce) kittening it up

GW2 always has and always will be a PVE game.

When 100 devs are working on PVE and 3 are working on competitive pvp its not hard to understand why the game never took off competitively. Why bother trying to build an esport from the ground up when you can just sell gems to casual pvers?

Its pointless to talk about balance because under the current dev mandate of keeping skills the same across PVE and WvW its impossible to change anything without messing up other parts of the game.

This game has some imbalance, like all games. But that has little to do with its success or failure as an esport.

The main factors are:

1. lack of skillshots/ dominance of auto attack, passive builds
2. difficult for spectators to watch/understand (related to #1)
3. lack of promotion from ANet/major sponsors

The 3rd problem at least is being dealt with which is great, but #1 and #2 are still massive issues.

At OP, you’re doing it wrong.
Refer to https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Vee-Wee-s-PvP-Suggestions/first for reference on how to improve thyself.
+1 on the part about 55hp monks though
close, so very close!

p.s. veewee for prez

Mckeone.9804:

Celestial D/D eles are hardcountered by anyone with boon stripping.

Untrue because a skilled ele can reverse the boon strip with:

Invulnerability
Mobility
Heal

And return before the necro’s CDs are back to kill a no-stability punching bag.

Esports wont touch this game because it’s too hard, imho… They prefer a dummy game like WoW.
But they screwed the pooch on spvp and tpvp… heck, Any Halo Rank match had a better system than gw2.
Gw2 pvp system doesn’t account for the casual player at all..

Saiyan.1704:

Esports wont touch this game because it’s too hard, imho… They prefer a dummy game like WoW.
But they screwed the pooch on spvp and tpvp… heck, Any Halo Rank match had a better system than gw2.
Gw2 pvp system doesn’t account for the casual player at all..

I just don’t think its fun to watch for your typical gamer….
It’s a pretty fast paced game but you can’t tell whats going on unless you played alot of PvP and know all the animations of all the skills and stuff lol… all you can really tell is well, that guy just went down, or that guy just got rezzed or yup, he won the 1v1 fight and now capped a point…

sPvP is terribly boring to watch. Yea, fun to play, but no one wants to watch this nonsense lol. Thats why it won’t ever be big… No one outside a small dedicated group want to watch this PvP… This game doesn’t even beat out runescape pvp streamers lol, that should show you how dull the PvP system is to watch in GW2…

I think we need more maps like Temple of the Silent Storm. This map is by far the most enjoyable map to spectate. Tranquility and Stillness are like the 4th node. Once Tranquility comes out, you need to allocate your teammates over there or risk a reversal.

I think Forest of Nifhel can be changed to mimic Temple of Silent Storm. Have the NPCs give a Ferocity buff when they’re killed. Open up the crypt below mid and add an NPC that goes on a downed state. To claim Tranquility, the player who stomps the NPC takes Tranquility for the team.

How about Legacy of the Foefire? The lord will go on a downed state when its HP goes to zero. There will still be an opportunity to interrupt the stomping player. In the case of simultaneous lord kill, all nodes will be neutral, basically denying the three cap.

Kyhlo should remain as is.

For Skyhammer, get rid of the breakable plates around the nodes, but keep them in the Skyhammer deck. Add a new mechanic to Skyhammer where a machine or something spawns somewhere in the map that the Skyhammer can only attack. The machine-something will have an HP, and whichever team does the last hit on that machine with the Skyhammer, they will take all three nodes at once.

This list is in no particular order:

1) Too many AOE and ground targetted skills. And AOE doing as much or more than single target. It is just totally no skill.
2) AOE carrying an abundance of secondary effects beyond damage.
3) There is a ton of AOE CC. CC needs to be single target and avoidable.
4) Too many pets. They are just all over the place.
5) Too many classes that can pop in and out of invisibility repeatedly. Like Ranger this should be a one trick pony. Turn invisible, make your move, and then live with it. Not rinse and repeat.
6) Too many passives. Passive cleanse this, passive remove that, passive spell here you go.
7) While I am not sure on this, but it seems easily stacked vulnerability really hurts the hybird classes, its like go dps or tank or go home. Your 3000 armor becomes meaningless in no time.
8) Lack of counters for conditions.

Class Imbalance? I don’t really see class imbalance as a problem like the OP. The easy no skill style of play is much at fault. Just spam a bunch of stuff on the ground or near you and dodge around when someone raises their arms in the air or jumps.