Guild Wars 2

Oh look, another oRNG member crying out. Helseth giving you too much hard time and you guys blame it on fire/air procs? The same fire/air procs that you have access to?

Can’t wait for ROM’s thread c:

Hint: Stop humiliating yourselves. You won WTS thanks to those procs.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Nah thief is the best builds because they 1 shot everything and never die, and setup stealth spikes which you dont even need ts for. Perma aoe stealth class with ports for days and the ability to insta gib anything in the game..

Combine this overlord with any other zerker with fire and air and you get double fire and air procs out of stealth for 15k auto attack spikes

You contradict yourself. So you need to make a choice. Are thieves setting up stealth spikes or they press #1. Plus its not perma stealth. You are weak. If you let a thief get full stealth in refuge as a necromancer, you are failure. Anything else lasts tops 3-4 seconds unless traited. And SA thieves are a joke, sadly. I would hardly call 3-4 seconds stealth a perma stealth, you know.

See if you said that the thief goes into stealth and runs away while you think he’s around you, that I can agree on. But you spew kitten like this and you lost all credibility i might have given you for playing a necro.

Ravenmoon.5318:

Oh look, another oRNG member crying out. Helseth giving you too much hard time and you guys blame it on fire/air procs? The same fire/air procs that you have access to?

Can’t wait for ROM’s thread c:

Hint: Stop humiliating yourselves. You won WTS thanks to those procs.

Lordrosicky.5813:

Nah thief is the best builds because they 1 shot everything and never die, and setup stealth spikes which you dont even need ts for. Perma aoe stealth class with ports for days and the ability to insta gib anything in the game..

Combine this overlord with any other zerker with fire and air and you get double fire and air procs out of stealth for 15k auto attack spikes

You contradict yourself. So you need to make a choice. Are thieves setting up stealth spikes or they press #1. Plus its not perma stealth. You are weak. If you let a thief get full stealth in refuge as a necromancer, you are failure. Anything else lasts tops 3-4 seconds unless traited. And SA thieves are a joke, sadly. I would hardly call 3-4 seconds stealth a perma stealth, you know.

See if you said that the thief goes into stealth and runs away while you think he’s around you, that I can agree on. But you spew kitten like this and you lost all credibility i might have given you for playing a necro.

What are u even talkin about omg

Guys its unavoidable damage and should be removed – other balances need to take place at the same time though to stop zerker being dropped out the meta. I have no idea why people would want to defend something so obviously bad for the game.

we’re forgetting about vamp runes lol

along Fire and Air sigils, they should also remove conditions from pvp, teleports and anything else that can hit a class that can’t survive it. Ofc, a condition class doesn’t give a frak about how badly those are “balanced” in pvp, but taking stupid amounts of damage hurts your feelings?!

On a different note, I’d say the one thing needing removed would be the type of toys like Skyhammer. Not because it’s too dangerous, just annoying. Like the Fire and Air sigils. Or the conditions. Or the bugged-to-hell terrain that prevents shadowsteps…

Aktium.9506:

choucs.4507:

Aktium.9506:

choucs.4507:

Aktium.9506:

choucs.4507:

Aktium.9506:

choucs.4507:

The whole point of a shoutbow now, is to either hold 1v1 or support team fights, cleanse conditions, land your pin down, heal your teammates and land your banner.
poison is only a bonus, in fact if your team plays it right, you shouldn’t even be worrying about poison application.

You underestimate just how much mileage builds like D/D Cele Ele and Shoutbow get out of Poison access against any manner of build with sustain..

does it matter? you are not going to 1v1 any of the dps class because you can win them without poison. and you will be 1v1 another shoutheal or ele who can cleanse the poison insanely easy and even with the poison the fight would last long enough for some one to plus one.
and as a shoutheal you shouldn’t even be 1v1ing to begin with.

As shoutbow you will be forced into 1v1s regardless until someone can come and help you. But really, I can’t take you seriously when you ask whether Doom sigil matters. By all means I implore you to do a few dozen matches as a shoutbow where you use Leeching or Energy as a substitute for Doom. And then you can tell me how it went.

When you are forced in a 1v1, it’s either another shoutheal or a DD ele or any of the bunkers, you think poison will kill them?

Of course not. Poison won’t kill anyone, but when you calculate the loss of healing as damage inflicted due to the poison even with relatively low uptime due to frequent cleanses the damage is up there with Air and Fire. And most D/D Eles won’t instantly blow one of their cantrips just to cleanse conditions they got from a swap, so that Poison will most likely be there until they have enough conditions on them to warrant blowing cantrips for cleanse or until water is off cooldown.

It won’t matter, because the point is to have your DPS plus one you. and bunker spec can cleanse poison almost immediately, that’s like part of why i said they won’t die, so i don’t get your argument.

What bunker sets? I almost never run into bunkers these days. Last time I saw a proper bunker guard was ages ago. And no one who is relevant is wasting a cleanse to remove just the conds from a wep switch. What hotjoin-tier players do you play with where they immediately blow cleanses as soon as they see poison on their bar.

Shoutbow and DDs are the bunkers nowadays, is it that hard to comprehend after i already said shoutbow dds countless times.
and DD and shoutbow removes tons of conditions just from basic skill rotation….and none of them have high varieties of condition to keep the poison going.
seriously..like do you even play any of these classes.

like i already said, it’s about the plus ones, nobody is going to die or not die just become there’s poison application in a duel between two bunkers.
and it’s even least of a matter in team fight, stop trying to make poison sound like a big deal for shoutbow. it’s not the poison that made shoutbow used and good and important in anyway and thats the topic and you already lost, now go back to your soloq…

One thing about bunkering:
I tried playing a tanky melee ranger for some time.
I stopped, when a powermancer went lich form and put me into down state with a single triple proc hit.
And that hit wasn’t auto attack. I’d respect that, as those are the main damage source of the skill. I was reflecting his auto attack hits fine with the offhand axe, I brought specifically for projectile based opponents. A single chilling wind, which has a laughably small damage coefficient, slammed me down from 13k hp to 0 due to passive procs.

Bunkering with a lot of passive sustain is meaningless, when passive procs blur the line between potentially lethal attacks and attacks, you can take to the face and live to tell the tale. If you want to bunker in this game, you need to be able to deal with large health swings.

Bottom line, you can’t play the game as it’s supposed to work. Use evades and active defense to avoid high damage spikes, either mitigate the rest with passive healing, damage reduction, etc. or dish out enough damage to kill your opponent before you drop perilously low. That’s how it’s supposed to work, that’s, what we were told.

However, there’s a lot of instant cast or almost instant cast abilities with low damage coefficients. In a vacuum, those are there to push some damage through blocks and evades, apply some effects, and generally pressure the opponent. However, with passive procs, those become potentially deadly.
You can evade all the big hits, you want. If any small hit could suddenly explode in your face for more than half of your health pool, saving dodges for big skills becomes meaningless. It just becomes a game of unloading all your skills, chaining evades and hoping to be the one to win the proc wars.

choucs.4507:

Aktium.9506:

choucs.4507:

Aktium.9506:

choucs.4507:

Aktium.9506:

choucs.4507:

Aktium.9506:

choucs.4507:

The whole point of a shoutbow now, is to either hold 1v1 or support team fights, cleanse conditions, land your pin down, heal your teammates and land your banner.
poison is only a bonus, in fact if your team plays it right, you shouldn’t even be worrying about poison application.

You underestimate just how much mileage builds like D/D Cele Ele and Shoutbow get out of Poison access against any manner of build with sustain..

does it matter? you are not going to 1v1 any of the dps class because you can win them without poison. and you will be 1v1 another shoutheal or ele who can cleanse the poison insanely easy and even with the poison the fight would last long enough for some one to plus one.
and as a shoutheal you shouldn’t even be 1v1ing to begin with.

As shoutbow you will be forced into 1v1s regardless until someone can come and help you. But really, I can’t take you seriously when you ask whether Doom sigil matters. By all means I implore you to do a few dozen matches as a shoutbow where you use Leeching or Energy as a substitute for Doom. And then you can tell me how it went.

When you are forced in a 1v1, it’s either another shoutheal or a DD ele or any of the bunkers, you think poison will kill them?

Of course not. Poison won’t kill anyone, but when you calculate the loss of healing as damage inflicted due to the poison even with relatively low uptime due to frequent cleanses the damage is up there with Air and Fire. And most D/D Eles won’t instantly blow one of their cantrips just to cleanse conditions they got from a swap, so that Poison will most likely be there until they have enough conditions on them to warrant blowing cantrips for cleanse or until water is off cooldown.

It won’t matter, because the point is to have your DPS plus one you. and bunker spec can cleanse poison almost immediately, that’s like part of why i said they won’t die, so i don’t get your argument.

What bunker sets? I almost never run into bunkers these days. Last time I saw a proper bunker guard was ages ago. And no one who is relevant is wasting a cleanse to remove just the conds from a wep switch. What hotjoin-tier players do you play with where they immediately blow cleanses as soon as they see poison on their bar.

Shoutbow and DDs are the bunkers nowadays, is it that hard to comprehend after i already said shoutbow dds countless times.
and DD and shoutbow removes tons of conditions just from basic skill rotation….and none of them have high varieties of condition to keep the poison going.
seriously..like do you even play any of these classes.

like i already said, it’s about the plus ones, nobody is going to die or not die just become there’s poison application in a duel between two bunkers.
and it’s even least of a matter in team fight, stop trying to make poison sound like a big deal for shoutbow. it’s not the poison that made shoutbow used and good and important in anyway and thats the topic and you already lost, now go back to your soloq…

Neither D/D Ele nor Shoutbow are straight up bunkers. I believe the correct term is bruiser. And no, D/D Ele will not remove conditions with basic rotations. They remove conditions by going into water or using cantrips. Shoutbow may have condi removal up every 5sec or so but D/D does not. And never once did I claim that Doom Sigil made Shoutbow good on its own, I claimed that it was more than just a slight bonus as you claimed. And in that you have failed to prove me wrong.

naphack.9346:

You can evade all the big hits, you want. If any small hit could suddenly explode in your face for more than half of your health pool, saving dodges for big skills becomes meaningless. It just becomes a game of unloading all your skills, chaining evades and hoping to be the one to win the proc wars.

Very good point. You used to be able to bunker skillfully with guardian by blocking/evading the right things while supporting your team. Nowadays, against many opponents there isn’t enough mitigation as even a random aoe-pulse can turn into half, or all of, your life.

The new traits aren’t any better either. SO MANY traits proc effects “on-crit, on-hit, on being crit/hit, on reaching 50%/25% health, etc.” that it takes a large portion of the skill out of the game. Even effects like “on interrupt” aren’t very high skill level, with the exception of things like “power block” that impact a specific skill, as EVERYONE is doing SOMETHING interruptable at least 80% of the time.

Blackjack.5621:

Would be nice if you finally started to balance classes around their own abilities. If your spec is viable right now depends on your sigil and rune synergie. Warrior gets 2 weapon swap sigil every 5 secs, good synergie. Zerkers get air/fire proc every few seconds. I´m just tired of dealing with pasive procs, like you run up to an engi with 3 stacks intelligence, doom, leeching and his first hit passively deals 6sec burn, 6 sec poison, crits you 100% and leeches 1k hp.

I really hope that sigils in the future become more of a tweak towards what you face instead of defining builds. Good example here is nullification sigil. Obviously same goes for runes. Having a viable short cd heal is a huge advantage in terms if sigil synergie. The active effect of some sigils like vampirism are just broken.

If mesmers autoattack wouldnt hit 3 times, this broken synergie you can see in this picture would never occure
http://fs1.directupload.net/images/150513/j9nypy6v.jpg

1. air and fire are fine and have been. the fact that other sigils dont bring anything else in terms of usefulness to dps builds is their own fault. if you want them to be nerfed, the nerf to critical damage and critical chance must be undone otherwise you’re further nerfing power builds despite them being balanced in the first place.

2. warrior, ele, and engie all have stupidly strong synergy (yes, that’s how it’s spelled) with on swap sigils because their profession basically rewards them for swapping as much as possible. anet has even addressed this by nerfing battle sigil to specifically nerf these three professions and their celestial might stacking builds. onswap sigils like leeching and doom are only really useful on these three because of this as well as the fact they can put out attacks almost instantly after swapping to proc them with little warning (though this is mainly engineer).

3. “build-defining gear” is a myth and always has been. this argument has been dispelled here countless times as nothing more than an attempt to make a scapegoat for professions like ele and warrior to avoid direct nerfs to their professions when they were/are otherwise necessary. your own inexperience only shines brightly when you bring it up as a point of contention.

sinject.4607:

nerf to critical damage

Why do people keep saying this? Crit damage in builds that use amulets that give ferocity (e.g. Berserker) is the same or higher as before the crit damage -> ferocity change.
They simply put the crit damage which they removed from the traitline onto the amulet. There are very few builds (e.g. Soldier hambow) that actually suffer from the change but those are not the ones that use fire/air anyways, thus they are irrelevant for this debate.

Both, thief as well as mesmer actually profit from the change: panic strike, acro/trickery s/d and shatter mesmer all put less than 6 points into their respective traitline thus they have increased crit damage compared to prior ferocity times.

edit: replaced “as well as” by “and”, so it does not get censored

lordrisiky was talking about sigils months ago, and all of you said learn to play and the usual crap, the problem with this game is it takes people way too long to admit when somethings broken you all wanna pretend your suddenly good even tho your skill level hasnt changed in years. all this stuff has been in here for months the balance has been broken for months myself and many other people have posted comments on balancing in the post and it just comes with a load of abuse. This is what happens when you dont think about a GOOD game honestly well done guys your ruined it for everyone, and your one the biggest offenders blackjack so go to hell lols you werent talkin about balance when you were running cheesemode bunker meta, that was the beggining of the end and just to make sure you know its try harders like you that are to blame.

Sigils/Runes do indeed define builds “as in, without these sigils/runes on certain builds, those build wouldn’t even be viable” and this is true but the issue here is not as broad and simple as recent posters are explaining. Here is a more concise explanation of what is happening here:

1. ~ Some Sigils/Runes are plainly better than others and used on MOST builds in the game. This is not an issue of Sigils/Runes defining build structures but more an issue that some Sigils/Runes are just too useful in contrast to the bulk of the Sigils/Runes in the game that are completely useless. Two things to fix this: Either tone down those Sigils/Runes or power creep the useless Sigils/Runes.

1. ~ Some specific build archetypes benefit SO WELL from a specific Sigil/Rune that there is no reason to ever use anything else and thus the main problem I am seeing posted in this thread “Sigils/Runes define builds”. This is half true. It’s not that Sigils/Runes define ALL builds but rather some builds in the game. Some builds benefit so widely from let’s say “Intelligence Sigil” that it does become a staple of the build. That right there “a staple of the build” is what is causing people to see it as “Sigils/Runes defining builds” and again, that is half true but not entirely an entirely accurate statement to define the problem here.

More over I would like to point out to you all that if Sigils/Runes are nerfed too much, it will indeed nerf your options for different viable build structures. I suggest that you all shift your complaining more towards buffing useless Sigils/Runes rather than nerfing what is useful and fun to use in general. Let’s face it, when you proc a double fire/air crit with a backtab, it’s a highlight and it’s fun. Let’s not take the fun out of the game but rather add other fun options to use for Sigil/Rune selections

Nothing I love more than critting on the third hit of necro dagger attack while simultaneously proccing air, fire, chill of death with close to death.

critical damage is rng. how do i know to dodge the crits. they are often over double the damage and proc additional effects. please remove critical hits

/s

choovanski.5462:

critical damage is rng. how do i know to dodge the crits. they are often over double the damage and proc additional effects. please remove critical hits

/s

lololol

Blackjack.5621:

Would be nice if you finally started to balance classes around their own abilities. If your spec is viable right now depends on your sigil and rune synergie. Warrior gets 2 weapon swap sigil every 5 secs, good synergie. Zerkers get air/fire proc every few seconds. I´m just tired of dealing with pasive procs, like you run up to an engi with 3 stacks intelligence, doom, leeching and his first hit passively deals 6sec burn, 6 sec poison, crits you 100% and leeches 1k hp.

I really hope that sigils in the future become more of a tweak towards what you face instead of defining builds. Good example here is nullification sigil. Obviously same goes for runes. Having a viable short cd heal is a huge advantage in terms if sigil synergie. The active effect of some sigils like vampirism are just broken.

If mesmers autoattack wouldnt hit 3 times, this broken synergie you can see in this picture would never occure
http://fs1.directupload.net/images/150513/j9nypy6v.jpg

Fun Facts by Texbi representing TCG :
-> this is the guy who made a posts complaining about pirate rune nerf.
-> this is the person who was in the team called “Cheese Mode” and ran 3 warriors when it was insanely broken. And made ZERO forum posts about this. (hmm i wonder why)

Speculations why he would suddenly make a forum post about this :

-> I am not broken anymore other specs are just as strong as my celestial , need to fix fast

Also removing fire air means that we will have a meta where nothing kills anything , a very low risk low reward meta wich is really fun. (sarcasm super funny joke)

But i do agree that if theres a way to remove fire air and prevent us from going into this meta(making zerkers unviable) i fully agree.

I don’t get why Fire/air is at fault when there’s still Energy and on swap. I just don’t understand why people can’t understand that nerfing that specific group will just make the other group stronger.

Calazor.8364:

Blackjack.5621:

Would be nice if you finally started to balance classes around their own abilities. If your spec is viable right now depends on your sigil and rune synergie. Warrior gets 2 weapon swap sigil every 5 secs, good synergie. Zerkers get air/fire proc every few seconds. I´m just tired of dealing with pasive procs, like you run up to an engi with 3 stacks intelligence, doom, leeching and his first hit passively deals 6sec burn, 6 sec poison, crits you 100% and leeches 1k hp.

I really hope that sigils in the future become more of a tweak towards what you face instead of defining builds. Good example here is nullification sigil. Obviously same goes for runes. Having a viable short cd heal is a huge advantage in terms if sigil synergie. The active effect of some sigils like vampirism are just broken.

If mesmers autoattack wouldnt hit 3 times, this broken synergie you can see in this picture would never occure
http://fs1.directupload.net/images/150513/j9nypy6v.jpg

Fun Facts by Texbi representing TCG :
-> this is the guy who made a posts complaining about pirate rune nerf.
-> this is the person who was in the team called “Cheese Mode” and ran 3 warriors when it was insanely broken. And made ZERO forum posts about this. (hmm i wonder why)

Speculations why he would suddenly make a forum post about this :

-> I am not broken anymore other specs are just as strong as my celestial , need to fix fast

Also removing fire air means that we will have a meta where nothing kills anything , a very low risk low reward meta wich is really fun. (sarcasm super funny joke)

But i do agree that if theres a way to remove fire air and prevent us from going into this meta(making zerkers unviable) i fully agree.

Rumors are that Zapdos equiped a zerker amulet once. Nobody has ever seen it though.

Also intel sigil is arguably the most balanced sigil in the game

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Sigils/Runes do indeed define builds “as in, without these sigils/runes on certain builds, those build wouldn’t even be viable” and this is true but the issue here is not as broad and simple as recent posters are explaining. Here is a more concise explanation of what is happening here:

1. ~ Some Sigils/Runes are plainly better than others and used on MOST builds in the game. This is not an issue of Sigils/Runes defining build structures but more an issue that some Sigils/Runes are just too useful in contrast to the bulk of the Sigils/Runes in the game that are completely useless. Two things to fix this: Either tone down those Sigils/Runes or power creep the useless Sigils/Runes.

1. ~ Some specific build archetypes benefit SO WELL from a specific Sigil/Rune that there is no reason to ever use anything else and thus the main problem I am seeing posted in this thread “Sigils/Runes define builds”. This is half true. It’s not that Sigils/Runes define ALL builds but rather some builds in the game. Some builds benefit so widely from let’s say “Intelligence Sigil” that it does become a staple of the build. That right there “a staple of the build” is what is causing people to see it as “Sigils/Runes defining builds” and again, that is half true but not entirely an entirely accurate statement to define the problem here.

More over I would like to point out to you all that if Sigils/Runes are nerfed too much, it will indeed nerf your options for different viable build structures. I suggest that you all shift your complaining more towards buffing useless Sigils/Runes rather than nerfing what is useful and fun to use in general. Let’s face it, when you proc a double fire/air crit with a backtab, it’s a highlight and it’s fun. Let’s not take the fun out of the game but rather add other fun options to use for Sigil/Rune selections

Fire+Air on Backstab is fine. It at most doubles the expected damage of the skill.
The problem is, when any small scratch has the ability to suddenly deal 20 times the expected damage.
I like to be able to use my hp as a resource. Jump in, trade hits, evade critical attacks, use heals to mitigate small scratches and push through damage.
In the current state of the game, this is not possible. There is no distinct damage sources, as half the damage of many builds is tied to procs, which can not be blocked(unless the attack causing the proc itself was unblockable and triggered the proc while hitting through a block), evaded, blinded or interrupted. You can block full rapid fires, interrupt earth shakers, reflect lich claws, blind pin down, etc. But you can’t stop that small utility skill, which just does a scratch and normally has the main use of applying cripple or weakness from suddenly exploding in your face.
Sigils don’t go on cooldown unless they proc. The only way to blank a passive proc is endure pain/signet of stone. Any other damage source will be gone for a while once you evade the hit. If all the damage is tied to passive procs, it doesn’t matter, what you are hit with.

I’ve already stated my opinion on the matter in another thread: There is no conceivable reason for there to be two passive proc sigils with massive physical damage, so why not give one of them a new purpose?

How about:
Currently:
Sigil of Air: 50% chance to deal 408(1.2) damage on critical hit. ICD of 3 seconds.
Proposed:
Sigil of Air: 66% chance on critical hit to deal 128(0.4) damage and apply weakness (3 seconds) to the target. ICD of 8 seconds.

naphack.9346:

There is no conceivable reason for there to be two passive proc sigils with massive physical damage, so why not give one of them a new purpose?

How about:
Currently:
Sigil of Air: 50% chance to deal 408(1.2) damage on critical hit. ICD of 3 seconds.
Proposed:
Sigil of Air: 66% chance on critical hit to deal 128(0.4) damage and apply weakness (3 seconds) to the target. ICD of 8 seconds.

Then players will use Fire + Blood for damage. Nerf that and players will move to the next thing. You eventually arrive at a solution which is to nerf the damage of all sigils.

I think the way Sigils/Runes interact with builds is great. However, the useless Sigils/Runes need buffing if not an entire change in dynamic so that they compare to the usefulness of Fire/Air/Blood/Leeching/INT/Doom/Geomancy/Energy and then sometimes Earth.

Yessir, those are your only viable Sigil selections amongst the existing 42 in pvp. There-in lies the real problem.

Calazor.8364:

Also intel sigil is arguably the most balanced sigil in the game

I agree on that. Intel rewards you for actually hitting important skills instead of rewarding you for hitting anything or doing some instant on swap stuff. One of the very few sigils that I would consider good game design.

Calazor.8364:

Blackjack.5621:

Would be nice if you finally started to balance classes around their own abilities. If your spec is viable right now depends on your sigil and rune synergie. Warrior gets 2 weapon swap sigil every 5 secs, good synergie. Zerkers get air/fire proc every few seconds. I´m just tired of dealing with pasive procs, like you run up to an engi with 3 stacks intelligence, doom, leeching and his first hit passively deals 6sec burn, 6 sec poison, crits you 100% and leeches 1k hp.

I really hope that sigils in the future become more of a tweak towards what you face instead of defining builds. Good example here is nullification sigil. Obviously same goes for runes. Having a viable short cd heal is a huge advantage in terms if sigil synergie. The active effect of some sigils like vampirism are just broken.

If mesmers autoattack wouldnt hit 3 times, this broken synergie you can see in this picture would never occure
http://fs1.directupload.net/images/150513/j9nypy6v.jpg

Fun Facts by Texbi representing TCG :
-> this is the guy who made a posts complaining about pirate rune nerf.
-> this is the person who was in the team called “Cheese Mode” and ran 3 warriors when it was insanely broken. And made ZERO forum posts about this. (hmm i wonder why)

Speculations why he would suddenly make a forum post about this :

-> I am not broken anymore other specs are just as strong as my celestial , need to fix fast

Also removing fire air means that we will have a meta where nothing kills anything , a very low risk low reward meta wich is really fun. (sarcasm super funny joke)

But i do agree that if theres a way to remove fire air and prevent us from going into this meta(making zerkers unviable) i fully agree.

Helseth would be proud. Keep being a kitten to everyone and one day you could become as big as kitten as him

Lordrosicky.5813:

Calazor.8364:

Blackjack.5621:

Would be nice if you finally started to balance classes around their own abilities. If your spec is viable right now depends on your sigil and rune synergie. Warrior gets 2 weapon swap sigil every 5 secs, good synergie. Zerkers get air/fire proc every few seconds. I´m just tired of dealing with pasive procs, like you run up to an engi with 3 stacks intelligence, doom, leeching and his first hit passively deals 6sec burn, 6 sec poison, crits you 100% and leeches 1k hp.

I really hope that sigils in the future become more of a tweak towards what you face instead of defining builds. Good example here is nullification sigil. Obviously same goes for runes. Having a viable short cd heal is a huge advantage in terms if sigil synergie. The active effect of some sigils like vampirism are just broken.

If mesmers autoattack wouldnt hit 3 times, this broken synergie you can see in this picture would never occure
http://fs1.directupload.net/images/150513/j9nypy6v.jpg

Fun Facts by Texbi representing TCG :
-> this is the guy who made a posts complaining about pirate rune nerf.
-> this is the person who was in the team called “Cheese Mode” and ran 3 warriors when it was insanely broken. And made ZERO forum posts about this. (hmm i wonder why)

Speculations why he would suddenly make a forum post about this :

-> I am not broken anymore other specs are just as strong as my celestial , need to fix fast

Also removing fire air means that we will have a meta where nothing kills anything , a very low risk low reward meta wich is really fun. (sarcasm super funny joke)

But i do agree that if theres a way to remove fire air and prevent us from going into this meta(making zerkers unviable) i fully agree.

Helseth would be proud. Keep being a kitten to everyone and one day you could become as big as kitten as him

sorri

Imo Doom, Hydromancy and Intelligence are much bigger offenders. Air/Fire aren’t that big a deal and people like seeing splashy numbers.

naphack.9346:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Sigils/Runes do indeed define builds “as in, without these sigils/runes on certain builds, those build wouldn’t even be viable” and this is true but the issue here is not as broad and simple as recent posters are explaining. Here is a more concise explanation of what is happening here:

1. ~ Some Sigils/Runes are plainly better than others and used on MOST builds in the game. This is not an issue of Sigils/Runes defining build structures but more an issue that some Sigils/Runes are just too useful in contrast to the bulk of the Sigils/Runes in the game that are completely useless. Two things to fix this: Either tone down those Sigils/Runes or power creep the useless Sigils/Runes.

1. ~ Some specific build archetypes benefit SO WELL from a specific Sigil/Rune that there is no reason to ever use anything else and thus the main problem I am seeing posted in this thread “Sigils/Runes define builds”. This is half true. It’s not that Sigils/Runes define ALL builds but rather some builds in the game. Some builds benefit so widely from let’s say “Intelligence Sigil” that it does become a staple of the build. That right there “a staple of the build” is what is causing people to see it as “Sigils/Runes defining builds” and again, that is half true but not entirely an entirely accurate statement to define the problem here.

More over I would like to point out to you all that if Sigils/Runes are nerfed too much, it will indeed nerf your options for different viable build structures. I suggest that you all shift your complaining more towards buffing useless Sigils/Runes rather than nerfing what is useful and fun to use in general. Let’s face it, when you proc a double fire/air crit with a backtab, it’s a highlight and it’s fun. Let’s not take the fun out of the game but rather add other fun options to use for Sigil/Rune selections

Fire+Air on Backstab is fine. It at most doubles the expected damage of the skill.
The problem is, when any small scratch has the ability to suddenly deal 20 times the expected damage.
I like to be able to use my hp as a resource. Jump in, trade hits, evade critical attacks, use heals to mitigate small scratches and push through damage.
In the current state of the game, this is not possible. There is no distinct damage sources, as half the damage of many builds is tied to procs, which can not be blocked(unless the attack causing the proc itself was unblockable and triggered the proc while hitting through a block), evaded, blinded or interrupted. You can block full rapid fires, interrupt earth shakers, reflect lich claws, blind pin down, etc. But you can’t stop that small utility skill, which just does a scratch and normally has the main use of applying cripple or weakness from suddenly exploding in your face.
Sigils don’t go on cooldown unless they proc. The only way to blank a passive proc is endure pain/signet of stone. Any other damage source will be gone for a while once you evade the hit. If all the damage is tied to passive procs, it doesn’t matter, what you are hit with.

I’ve already stated my opinion on the matter in another thread: There is no conceivable reason for there to be two passive proc sigils with massive physical damage, so why not give one of them a new purpose?

How about:
Currently:
Sigil of Air: 50% chance to deal 408(1.2) damage on critical hit. ICD of 3 seconds.
Proposed:
Sigil of Air: 66% chance on critical hit to deal 128(0.4) damage and apply weakness (3 seconds) to the target. ICD of 8 seconds.

Nerf celestial bunkers first before you nerf sigils.
Bring down the healing amount from Signets of Restoration, Signer of healing, Mediations, Shouts, regeneration, those passive healing procs, then we can talk.
Also address the auto-procs from many classes too before you justify the nerf of air-fire.
Stop being hypocritical.

Toxsa.2701:

naphack.9346:

Trevor Boyer.6524:

Sigils/Runes do indeed define builds “as in, without these sigils/runes on certain builds, those build wouldn’t even be viable” and this is true but the issue here is not as broad and simple as recent posters are explaining. Here is a more concise explanation of what is happening here:

1. ~ Some Sigils/Runes are plainly better than others and used on MOST builds in the game. This is not an issue of Sigils/Runes defining build structures but more an issue that some Sigils/Runes are just too useful in contrast to the bulk of the Sigils/Runes in the game that are completely useless. Two things to fix this: Either tone down those Sigils/Runes or power creep the useless Sigils/Runes.

1. ~ Some specific build archetypes benefit SO WELL from a specific Sigil/Rune that there is no reason to ever use anything else and thus the main problem I am seeing posted in this thread “Sigils/Runes define builds”. This is half true. It’s not that Sigils/Runes define ALL builds but rather some builds in the game. Some builds benefit so widely from let’s say “Intelligence Sigil” that it does become a staple of the build. That right there “a staple of the build” is what is causing people to see it as “Sigils/Runes defining builds” and again, that is half true but not entirely an entirely accurate statement to define the problem here.

More over I would like to point out to you all that if Sigils/Runes are nerfed too much, it will indeed nerf your options for different viable build structures. I suggest that you all shift your complaining more towards buffing useless Sigils/Runes rather than nerfing what is useful and fun to use in general. Let’s face it, when you proc a double fire/air crit with a backtab, it’s a highlight and it’s fun. Let’s not take the fun out of the game but rather add other fun options to use for Sigil/Rune selections

Fire+Air on Backstab is fine. It at most doubles the expected damage of the skill.
The problem is, when any small scratch has the ability to suddenly deal 20 times the expected damage.
I like to be able to use my hp as a resource. Jump in, trade hits, evade critical attacks, use heals to mitigate small scratches and push through damage.
In the current state of the game, this is not possible. There is no distinct damage sources, as half the damage of many builds is tied to procs, which can not be blocked(unless the attack causing the proc itself was unblockable and triggered the proc while hitting through a block), evaded, blinded or interrupted. You can block full rapid fires, interrupt earth shakers, reflect lich claws, blind pin down, etc. But you can’t stop that small utility skill, which just does a scratch and normally has the main use of applying cripple or weakness from suddenly exploding in your face.
Sigils don’t go on cooldown unless they proc. The only way to blank a passive proc is endure pain/signet of stone. Any other damage source will be gone for a while once you evade the hit. If all the damage is tied to passive procs, it doesn’t matter, what you are hit with.

I’ve already stated my opinion on the matter in another thread: There is no conceivable reason for there to be two passive proc sigils with massive physical damage, so why not give one of them a new purpose?

How about:
Currently:
Sigil of Air: 50% chance to deal 408(1.2) damage on critical hit. ICD of 3 seconds.
Proposed:
Sigil of Air: 66% chance on critical hit to deal 128(0.4) damage and apply weakness (3 seconds) to the target. ICD of 8 seconds.

Nerf celestial bunkers first before you nerf sigils.
Bring down the healing amount from Signets of Restoration, Signer of healing, Mediations, Shouts, regeneration, those passive healing procs, then we can talk.
Also address the auto-procs from many classes too before you justify the nerf of air-fire.
Stop being hypocritical.

Nice try but I mostly play cleric bunkers.

Blackjack.5621:

I´m just tired of dealing with pasive procs, like you run up to an engi with 3 stacks intelligence, doom, leeching and his first hit passively deals 6sec burn, 6 sec poison, crits you 100% and leeches 1k hp.

100% agree
it’s so annyoing seeing engis even if they’re actually bad, beeing so succesesfull because of those sigills

just make it sure that you always can just take one swap sigill and one of fire/air/blood , remove vamp rune and we are getting a good step forward

Blackjack.5621:

I´m just tired of dealing with pasive procs, like you run up to an engi with 3 stacks intelligence, doom, leeching and his first hit passively deals 6sec burn, 6 sec poison, crits you 100% and leeches 1k hp.

wow. please tell me about this engi build that runs doom, leaching and intelligence. three sigil engi wow. new no math meta 1862.

choovanski.5462:

wow. please tell me about this engi build that runs doom, leaching and intelligence. three sigil engi wow. new no math meta 1862.

He means the leeching procc from Vampirism runes.

I’m up for giving up my air/fire sigil on thief, if you’re up for giving something in return.

The reason I’m saying this is because thief/mesmer actually relies on those sigils to be optimal (read: more than viable for just decaps).

If we would remove air/fire, we’re talking about a huge DPS loss. Thief/Mesmer already in a bad spot current meta with the Cele Engi/Ele/Warr and DPS Guards reigning over us (which, all, throw random conditions over a whole point, making it hard for us to do anything)

Yeah, I agree with Terrorsquad. Thief has to spec everything to power or prec/ferocity for this to be relevant. Then its still mediocre damage to some of the big hitters in a single hit. Backstab you have to land under conditions that everyone knows to just move around in circles to stop it and it does about the damage that a mighty blow from guard does AOE on short cooldown.

So Thief skill coefficients would have to go up ridiculously to compensate this change and then thieves do that damage every single hit.

I say do it, as long as the skill coefficients go up to keep the classes that rely on them relevant, I would love to spec strength instead and maybe purity to get rid of condis.