Guild Wars 2

In pvp it just doesnt make sense. glass is so bad its funny. 50% ish crit chance only 3k attack and a whopping 50% ish crit damage. WTF gives. Glass is supposed to be do or die. If you go half way you get slapped. with conditions they dont have that because most of the time they can be applied from ranges and tick while kiting. Why are conditions stronger than glass in almost every aspect of the game? because they can be cleansed? Yea GL cleansing like 5 condition bombs in a row. With glass you will be lucky to nuke them for half their HP with your full burst. while they just condition bomb you once and walk away as you melt in your boots.

I’ll be the first to say: you’re wrong and l2p. sPvP meta is condition heavy. Learn and adapt.

hmm cause warriors can adapt, thieves can adapt, guardians can adapt? Not every class has viable condition specs so what you are saying is that everyone should roll necro, condition ele and condition engi? hmm seems legit. If there was a midway point between glass and condition there would be no problem why should we not play some classes because anet decides conditions should be superiorly OP?

i still see 7.2+K backstab on 2.6K armor

just sayin

PvP should not be about using some meta build until there’s an update, and then again with the new meta until the next update.

It should be balanced enough that if you played in a mode in which you get random skills and traits, you would still have around 50% chances to win.

If conditions overpower direct damage builds, you nerf conditions down until they are in equal footage to direct damage.

One or two professions with certain weapons and traits still being able to manage with direct damage is not enough either. Any profession that chooses to go “no condition DPS” should be viable. Like a vulnerability necromancer with axe and focus, or a guardian or warrior with a hammer.

Conditions are slow, burst is one and done. The only time condis work is when they avoid your burst REPEATEDLY. When that happens, you’re screwed.

Most Condition Builds are a direct result of Glass Cannon Builds..

Thieves/Warriors/Mesmer’s for example do absolutely silly burst that some of the other classes can’t compete with..so..They Build to stop that burst….and conditions is usually the fall back for that cause the fight will be lasting a while.

There is a reason you do not see Glass Cannon Rangers in SPvP

Yeah, nothing more funny than privileged warriors and thieves wanting their burst specs to counter and deal with everything.

RaynStargaze.6510:

i still see 7.2+K backstab on 2.6K armor

just sayin

Those are only received if the thief has specced absolutely everything into dmg and every single damage bonus apply (More dmg with condition, Rune of Scholar etc.)
This means that the thief is VERY vulnerable to all kinds of damage, where as most condi amulets are pretty defensive (High toughness or Healing Power).
Another thing to note is that a lot of classes can easily heal 7.2k in no time without any conditions applied to them, and even most self-heals heal for approximately 3-7k.
The thief HAS to be get close and hit you from behind, which can be avoided if the thief is blinded or you have aegies/block. Furthermore, the damage can be reduced by Protection.

Conditions will hit you for the same amount (It takes a bit longer, but they will tick for more if you let them), but also decrease your movement speed, healing and damage.
Conditions are also AoE, can be used at ranged distance AND can be pretty much mindlessly spammed. No special circumstances have to be met to apply the conditions.

Conditions are much stronger than direct damage, and are much easier to play and apply, there is no denying that. Some think this is a bad thing others like it, it’s really just a matter of preference. But it still does not change the fact that the OP is right.

Yes, conditions can be cleansed, but the average build can cleanse like 1-5 conditions every 20 second, and conditions can be applied pretty much every second. So please don’t try to use that argument, it makes no sense.

Carry on with your discussion, I just wanted to shed some light on the actual situation.

I fail to understand why people still list thieves when talking about “ridicolous burst”.

That stuff died at least 1 month ago, and even 1 month ago, there were better choices.

Bah, who knows.

KrisHQ.4719:

RaynStargaze.6510:

i still see 7.2+K backstab on 2.6K armor

just sayin

Those are only received if the thief has specced absolutely everything into dmg and every single damage bonus apply (More dmg with condition, Rune of Scholar etc.)
This means that the thief is VERY vulnerable to all kinds of damage, where as most condi amulets are pretty defensive (High toughness or Healing Power).
Another thing to note is that a lot of classes can easily heal 7.2k in no time without any conditions applied to them, and even most self-heals heal for approximately 3-7k.
The thief HAS to be get close and hit you from behind, which can be avoided if the thief is blinded or you have aegies/block. Furthermore, the damage can be reduced by Protection.

Conditions will hit you for the same amount (It takes a bit longer, but they will tick for more if you let them), but also decrease your movement speed, healing and damage.
Conditions are also AoE, can be used at ranged distance AND can be pretty much mindlessly spammed. No special circumstances have to be met to apply the conditions.

Conditions are much stronger than direct damage, and are much easier to play and apply, theree is no denying that. Some think this is a bad thing others like it, it’s really just a matter of preference. But it still does not change the fact that the OP is right.

Yes, conditions can be cleansed, but the average build can cleanse like 1-5 conditions every 20 second, and conditions can be applied pretty much every second. So please don’t try to use that argument, it makes no sense.

Carry on with your discussion, I just wanted to shed some light on the actual situation.

There is actually builds that utilize the condi glass cannon amulets (Rampagers + Carrion) and are still quite successful. So being condi has no real correlation to being a tank. Just as there are tank build that can still do damage (elementalists for example, while still retaining healing as well). I think the problem you are dealing with is that you do not understand conditions that well so I guess I will explain that to you.

Conditions are designed to do more damage that direct damage due to their very nature, there is a ramp up time and a second stage where you can have a secondary time to remove damage upon yourself, whereas with direct damage once a hit lands there is no way to counteract that. So with that basic understanding the increase of overall damage is due to a secondary mechanic used to counter that specific damage application.

Now let us deal with your next comment “just spam away conditions 24/7”, I can tell you that my experience as a ranger I have available to me 3 abilities that bleed, 2 that burn, and 3 that poison. Does this sound like overkill? That is because it is not overkill, how would you enjoy it if your auto attack didn’t do any power damage unless you flanked someone? Not very good I assume.

The main issue here is that you are completely complaining about Necro’s but have applied it to every single condition class. The Necro right now is so powerful in all aspects of condition that there is simply no reason to take a different class in that role. The reason for this strength is the amount of conditions that can pop up at any given hit which is anywhere from 2-4 with the ability to flip conditions rather easily (if there is an NPC around its free condi clears 4ver).

In closing there are more than just power classes that exist in the game, if only Power is viable than necros, rangers and engies are super jokes of a class. Get off your high horse and see both sides.

Why you list Elementalist as a Dams Dealer while retaining good healing?….Say WHAT??? O _0!!

BobJoeXXI.2493:

I’ll be the first to say: you’re wrong and l2p. sPvP meta is condition heavy. Learn and adapt.

what if there is no way to adapt because the tools and condi removal we have is not enough

BobJoeXXI.2493:

I’ll be the first to say: you’re wrong and l2p. sPvP meta is condition heavy. Learn and adapt.

Adapt… Lets put it this way. Currently one class dominates all at the manipulation of conditions. They did this before the 25th of June, however with the new patch and their very good buffs they have just become over the top. They needed survivability buffs not more condition damage. Right now there is almost no hope for a zerk build to counter a condition necro.

I play berserker Guardian, DPS version. Before update I was good to kill a large number of classes, but now I can’t use it well in tspvp because of the too much high condition damage of some classes.
I’ve 14k hp and 2600 armor, whit meditation that cure 1900 hp each time.
Ok, necro’s can deal me 7k damage in 3 sec whit condition damage and wells. Ad they’ve 22k hp or more and high defence. Then how can I kill them if I die in 8 sec?
if I use my skills to convert conditions in buff, they re-convert my buff in conditions and that’s not good for me XD
That’s why I actually can’t kill necro, engi, condition thief and some other classes that use condition damage.

Taym.8326:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/conditions-so-much-stronger-than-glass/first#post2357070

You kinda lost me when you thought you had to explain “how conditions work.”
But.
I’m not complaining about any certain class, I have played a fair amount of tournaments on my ranger. From experience I can tell you that to be effiecient I didn’t really have to do anything.
I had so many supportive skills that I could stay alive easily while just spamming all my conditions. Worked much better than trying to play skilled on my elementalist or play an offensive guardian. The same applies to Engineers and Necromancers.
Evading direct bursts does not take more than few hours of practice. It is incredibly easy in a 1v1 situation.

I don’t really get your point. See both sides? Oh.. But I have.
I cannot state objectively that burst would be a better meta than conditions, since it’s a matter of preference.
I can understand from your post that you like the new condition meta, which is totally fine with me. To each his own. Still does not make my post less true.

Oh and only being able to deal dmg while flanking? That sounds perfect.

The problem with Conditions is that it bypass Toughness. No matter how high is your toughness, Conds dam deals equally. That proves to be the biggest problem for any class that has low health pool such as Eles. If conditions dams can be reduced by some % scale with your toughness, then at that time, people will stop complaining about Condition feast. My Eles in tPvP has 1700 Toughness, I can survive as long as I want against thief burst but against Necro Conditions, I can not survive more than 20s. And as a Bunker Eles, you can not expect me to kil the Necro even it is glass, can you? However, prolong the fight always in Necro favour.

Epic.3950:

hmm cause warriors can adapt, thieves can adapt, guardians can adapt? Not every class has viable condition specs so what you are saying is that everyone should roll necro, condition ele and condition engi? hmm seems legit. If there was a midway point between glass and condition there would be no problem why should we not play some classes because anet decides conditions should be superiorly OP?

Whats a Condition Ele?

How can you say with a straight face that power comps are viable in this meta :P
Yeah glass is weaker than conditions atm.Conditions kill very fast,bypass toughness protection weakness and the cond builds run amulets like rabids which makes them very tanky.
So a cond class needs to invest in cond damage and a bit of crit chance for the effects while a burst damage needs to invest in crit chance,crit damage,power and alsohas only a small room to do damage in between the prot,weakness,dodge,invuln,block,blind etc.Not only that but engineers and necros dont get punished nowhere near as much if they miss their stuff..Oh you missed your attacks??No problem incediary powder/dhuumfire will proc regardless on your next crit..
Only dps build that i would justify bringing is dps ele cause its ele and will always be built as hybrid with water arcana so heals and boons and very very good thieves for the back capping action and mobility.Shatter mesm is weaker than ever but still good due to team utility i guess..and thats it..Even warriors i randomly see these days play with condies :O
It also doesnt help that aoe is so strong,especially cond aoe..

Kline.9561:

BobJoeXXI.2493:

I’ll be the first to say: you’re wrong and l2p. sPvP meta is condition heavy. Learn and adapt.

what if there is no way to adapt because the tools and condi removal we have is not enough

if meta is condition heavy with little to no burst → run with high vitality high damage build and kill them before they can get enough condis on you

protip: necromancers are very weak to cc, get up to their face and knock them off. (same goes for engis)

Shar.3402:

Kline.9561:

BobJoeXXI.2493:

I’ll be the first to say: you’re wrong and l2p. sPvP meta is condition heavy. Learn and adapt.

what if there is no way to adapt because the tools and condi removal we have is not enough

if meta is condition heavy with little to no burst -> run with high vitality high damage build and kill them before they can get enough condis on you

protip: necromancers are very weak to cc, get up to their face and knock them off. (same goes for engis)

everybody is weak to cc and focus fire..plus necros dont run alone.They have a team to rely on so that they peel for them.Engi still has the same broken self rezz only now its fixed and more op than it ever was which makes it a very very hard 1vs1 match up.Basically if you play against a team that has an engi dedicated to invading your close point i dont see what else you can send there to kill him other than necro or…an other engi , perhaps with automated respond.If you need to send 2 people because you cant 1vs1 it then the invader has already won..

Yes, building for aoe condition damage is far more favourable than single target power currently.

Avead.5760:

everybody is weak to cc and focus fire..plus necros dont run alone.They have a team to rely on so that they peel for them.Engi still has the same broken self rezz only now its fixed and more op than it ever was which makes it a very very hard 1vs1 match up.Basically if you play against a team that has an engi dedicated to invading your close point i dont see what else you can send there to kill him other than necro or…an other engi , perhaps with automated respond.If you need to send 2 people because you cant 1vs1 it then the invader has already won..

Necros and engies are weaker than say ele or mesmer to cc and focus fire, they don’t have blinks or invulnerabilities (usually, no engi runs elixir s anyway), and literally no stability. Sure, they could break stun, but that doesn’t make them immune to other ccs.

As for the engi harassing your home point, there are ways to counter it.

I would like to hear the idea of how to counter an engine invade your home point.

I’ve seen lots of engineers with Elixir S and Thumper turrets.
1-5 seconds of stability may not be perfect, but with a little luck you may get the 4s from the Elixir S utility and make CCs useless for a while, as warriors have absolutely no way to remove boons.

On the other hand, engineers can bring massive condition spam.
I’m talking fire-and-forget plain dumb pew-pew-pew conditions that you can keep up constantly. Long burnings, stacks of over 7 bleed, really long poisons, confusion, sillyness from bombs and grenades…
It’s incredible they didn’t gave them Torment too.
It was expecting them to get it in some way, like the sequence skill from the net turret, replacing part of the damage or even replacing the immobilize.

I think people should just continue posting here LOL

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Necros-and-conditions-out-of-hand/page/2#post2352849

Anyway, I can outline the issues for everyone who wants to justify that conditions are “balanced”.

1 – Power attacks do damage instantly while conditions have a ramp up.

Fair enough statement and valid for most classes. However, when conditions are taking me from 100-50% hp the same as a full GC thief (which I can start using my dodges/ccs against) then we have a problem no? Cleansing works but not to the extent that it is required to work. Plus, cleansing at 50% hp when your limping is not really going to win you the fight.

2 – Power attacks cant be “removed” or “cleansed”.

This is why conditions bypassed toughness in the first place. They do complete damage (which severly hurts low hp professions) irrespective of your toughness. But the problem comes when your cleanses can no longer keep up (I get that a condition class is always supposed to have conditions on you since that is his primary source of damage). But when guardians/eles specced completely (sacrificing damage) for cleansing is still having an upward slope of a fight against a condition class, I would say something is wrong.

In my honest opinion, all condition builds are fairly balanced with the exception of necro/engi. Even death-blossom thieves are in line (their evasion is a different issue heh). But the ability for these two classes to completely fill you with conditions within seconds and make their condition builds into “burst” builds are the issue right now.
If you play an engi or a necro and disagree with me, try a pure condition build on any other class and see the difference for yourself.

MithranArkanere.8957:

I’ve seen lots of engineers with Elixir S and Thumper turrets.

Very VERY few of the upper end players are using either of these, mostly because we don’t have the bar space to slot in less-than-optimal utilities.

MithranArkanere.8957:

On the other hand, engineers can bring massive condition spam.
I’m talking fire-and-forget plain dumb pew-pew-pew conditions that you can keep up constantly. Long burnings, stacks of over 7 bleed, really long poisons, confusion, sillyness from bombs and grenades…

Both of these are AoEs that have both a cast time AND either flight time, or fuse time, always with red circles. We can’t “fire and forget” these are not noob-seeking missiles (Ok, the rocket turret sortof is) they are aimed, tossed or dropped where we think you are going to be. It is very simple to counter, don’t be there.

As warriors, are you guys supposed to have tons of movement options?

MithranArkanere.8957:

I’ve seen lots of engineers with Elixir S and Thumper turrets.
1-5 seconds of stability may not be perfect, but with a little luck you may get the 4s from the Elixir S utility and make CCs useless for a while, as warriors have absolutely no way to remove boons.

random hotjoin n00bs don’t count.

Xsorus.2507:

Most Condition Builds are a direct result of Glass Cannon Builds..

Thieves/Warriors/Mesmer’s for example do absolutely silly burst that some of the other classes can’t compete with..so..They Build to stop that burst….and conditions is usually the fall back for that cause the fight will be lasting a while.

There is a reason you do not see Glass Cannon Rangers in SPvP

very well said

Admittedly, I like to use both GC and Condi. But honestly in order to combat the strong GC builds, then for some specific professions, it’s best to go the Condi route. Especially if your profession has a strong spec for it (ie Necro, Ranger, Engi)

Shar.3402:

MithranArkanere.8957:

I’ve seen lots of engineers with Elixir S and Thumper turrets.
1-5 seconds of stability may not be perfect, but with a little luck you may get the 4s from the Elixir S utility and make CCs useless for a while, as warriors have absolutely no way to remove boons.

random hotjoin n00bs don’t count.

Yes, they do.

Like Depeche Mode says: Everything counts in large amounts

Not only there’s lots of solo players in tournaments, but you can’t count only the higher-end matches in which they won’t get due to their low rank. As if they were the only matches in which balance should focus.

Balance must be achieved across the board, not under some special circumstances, even for rank 1-5 noobie matches filled with players that decide to do the dailies in tournaments instead pickup arenas.
I would go as far as saying that those should be balanced with special care, as they are the entry point of players.
If they perceive matches as unfair and impossible to win, they are less likely to keep playing the mode.
And the last thing any game or game mode needs, PvP or not, is less new players.

So yes. Random solo-joiners do count.

Stealth.9324:

The problem with Conditions is that it bypass Toughness. No matter how high is your toughness, Conds dam deals equally. That proves to be the biggest problem for any class that has low health pool such as Eles. If conditions dams can be reduced by some % scale with your toughness, then at that time, people will stop complaining about Condition feast. My Eles in tPvP has 1700 Toughness, I can survive as long as I want against thief burst but against Necro Conditions, I can not survive more than 20s. And as a Bunker Eles, you can not expect me to kil the Necro even it is glass, can you? However, prolong the fight always in Necro favour.

Um, no.

Necro himself has much more trouble dealing with conditions than ele.

He’s got a 25 sec cd condi clear, and 2 condi transfers. That’s it, and the two condi transfers need to hit to begin with or you only have one condi clear.

Meanwhile my ele with evasive arcana can cleanse conditions 4-5 times easily, while healing back up, and having access to fury and might stacking and protection to boot.

You complain about dying to necros. Well, necros get farmed by thieves, because they don’t have protection and they don’t have mobility to avoid backstab, they only got 2 dodges and no vigor.

The people who say they can deal with thief burst are usually bunkers. Glass cannons cannot survive thief burst, but thieves and mesmers easily survive against other glass cannons because of stealth/teleport resets.

Condition builds exist because no classes other than thief or mesmer have viable glass cannon builds.

Nothing has really changed a burst player that is good will hit me when Im not ready or juke well and end it.

Bad burst will run into spectral wall 4 times in a row then /s OMG OP

Xom.9264:

Nothing has really changed a burst player that is good will hit me when Im not ready or juke well and end it.

Bad burst will run into spectral wall 4 times in a row then /s OMG OP

For a good “burst player” to kill you the way you stated, you yourself have to be good. If you are bad and just randomly dodge, there’s no way to predict that. Happens all the time.

Med.6150:

Xom.9264:

Nothing has really changed a burst player that is good will hit me when Im not ready or juke well and end it.

Bad burst will run into spectral wall 4 times in a row then /s OMG OP

For a good “burst player” to kill you the way you stated, you yourself have to be good. If you are bad and just randomly dodge, there’s no way to predict that. Happens all the time.

Haha. Sadly this is the truth.

By juke well they act like they are going after someone else do a fast turn and get on me. Or hit when I’m far too engaged in a fight already.

Burst can kill you in a few seconds if you dont have the right cooldowns up. Condition cant do that there is a build up time where you can remove the condition or call for a condition clear.

In a game with no true dedicated healers burst can not ever get to the level of the early game again, that major mistake is why the pvp population left early in the game and still has not recovered…. that and boring conquest mode.

Lets clear something up here

Toughness is the Counter to Power Damage
Vitality is the Counter to Condition Damage..

Quit asking for both stats to counter Conditions because you don’t want to bother with condition removal abilities

Xsorus.2507:

Lets clear something up here

Toughness is the Counter to Power Damage
Vitality is the Counter to Condition Damage..

Quit asking for both stats to counter Conditions because you don’t want to bother with condition removal abilities

Except vitality is a crap counter to conditions… Case in point Warriors.

Vitality is as much of a counter to power damage than to conditions.

So power damage is countered both by Toughness and Vitality. And the later is a poor counter anyway.

RaynStargaze.6510:

i still see 7.2+K backstab on 2.6K armor

just sayin

^this, not funny!
also hello to my phantasm-crits-u-with-5k/hit-mesmers <3

Xsorus.2507:

Lets clear something up here

Toughness is the Counter to Power Damage
Vitality is the Counter to Condition Damage..

Quit asking for both stats to counter Conditions because you don’t want to bother with condition removal abilities

Your wrong. Toughness is a better counter to power damage than vitality but vitality still helps a lot for low hp classes. But toughness has 0 effect against conditions so the above classes have to get reasonable amounts of both to survive, thus severely screwing their offense.

If you can’t grasp the concept of how Vit is the counter stat to condition damage in a game where every class has heals I don’t know what to tell you..

As for saying Warriors… If you go only Toughness against a Power Class, and pickup nothing else to improve your survivability chances are you will die..Warriors are the same way with Conditions..Most choose not to counter conditions..Most Warriors in general have the Bear Ranger Mentality….

Xsorus.2507:

If you can’t grasp the concept of how Vit is the counter stat to condition damage in a game where every class has heals I don’t know what to tell you..

As for saying Warriors… If you go only Toughness against a Power Class, and pickup nothing else to improve your survivability chances are you will die..Warriors are the same way with Conditions..Most choose not to counter conditions..Most Warriors in general have the Bear Ranger Mentality….

You are the one who is unable to grasp the imbalance between vit and toughness in the current meta. It was fine when cleanses were on par with condition application but it is not anymore. Classes with low hp have to prioritize toughness over vit because burst kills faster than conditions. But currently, conditions are demolishing people at near equal rates so now these classes either go vit to have a chance against conditions but get torn apart by power builds (mesmer’s phantasms, thieves, warriors etc) or they have to get both just to survive. Leaving them with minimal stat options for offense.

PS: I never run a build without moderate cleansing on any class. My ultilities are a balanced mix of cleansing/stun breakers and mobility/stealth/invul. However, post patch I have dropped one or both non cleansing utilities in favor of cleanses because of the fact that condition is killing more than stuns/burst.

Epic.3950:

hmm cause warriors can adapt, thieves can adapt, guardians can adapt? Not every class has viable condition specs so what you are saying is that everyone should roll necro, condition ele and condition engi? hmm seems legit. If there was a midway point between glass and condition there would be no problem why should we not play some classes because anet decides conditions should be superiorly OP?

Wait, a thief cannot adapt? Huh, go stealth remove conditions, use heal, remove bleeding/poison everytime. That has to be a joke right? OHHHhh you mean if you go all glass cannon and can kill people in a Steal + mug + imobilize + cloak and dagger + backstab and you dont want to be vulnerable to condition damage? Oh, i see. meta changed and you want to be buffed.

A guardian cannot adapt? Are you joking? Soldier runes + shouts = condition clear. Shouts back at practically 20+ seconds, let alone purity removing every 10 seconds, and if built right, removing for your entire team. Wait, you mean you have to run the ability smite conditions? Oh, im sorry. Guess that one ability and some traits is not enough for auto cleans.

Warrior, I can’t help you, I feel that they need some help, though they too can run a shout or two and soldier runes, get a bit more tanky and still remove some conditions.

So sounds to me like the community wants necros to go back being lackluster and not viable in the meta. Conditions they have were always there, except we got 2 more. one in a grandmaster trait that makes you go GC like yourself and CC prone, and another in DS. I don’t feel bad for you at all. I think we are where we should be, and people need to take their glass cannosn and add a stun break and one ability for a cleanse, instead of running 4 utility skills 3 + 1 elite for total offense.

Nope, feel like your kitten in in the wind.

The problem is the community got used to having specific builds, that were practically only built either for complete damage or to deal with classes in the pre-existing meta, where necros were not played as much because they were not top tier. Case in point, look at the top tier tournaments prior to the patch (did you see a necro? or a warrior?). Now the patch is forcing people to go back to the drawing board to try and account for the new meta, where necros are more abundant, using the same conditions that were there prior. The community just does not want to adjust their builds, which were working pretty well when the balance was Mesmer/Guardian/bunker ranger were in every game, along with a thief and an engie.

Now you actually have to change things up, and it takes time to see where you need to be. This community is lazy.

The problem is that heavy condition cleanse builds for some classes leave them as threatening as a white underleveled mob.

stof.9341:

The problem is that heavy condition cleanse builds for some classes leave them as threatening as a white underleveled mob.

Bullcrap. Shadow arts condi cleanse spam thief still crits backstab for 4-5k on high toughness easy.

Mesmer just needs 10 points in inspiration and mantra heal+null field.

What we’re seeing here is a case of people wanting to keep all their offensive perks with free defensive boosts.

You may be non-threatening to bunkers with the damage sacrifice, but that is intended. Your builds doesn’t get to address every weakness it has.

The fact is every warrior I see wants to run full zerker, gs, and axe/shield. And they want to be able to do the ridiculous damage they already do while having high uptime.

And the answer is, you can’t. If you were allowed to do that damage to someone for prolonged periods of time, thieves would be booted and so would any spike class really in favor of a warrior who can not only spike, but has better sustained and cleaving.

i think peoples problem is with glass the risk is huge if you get caught out at all you will die. where condition classes can almost burst as hard or harder and still have descent toughness/hp pools. while burst can still be effective it is a higher risk for not much more reward. Also aoe cleave meta is very boring to watch and to play in my eyes and in many peoples eyes.

Zenith.7301:

stof.9341:

The problem is that heavy condition cleanse builds for some classes leave them as threatening as a white underleveled mob.

Bullcrap. Shadow arts condi cleanse spam thief still crits backstab for 4-5k on high toughness easy.

Mesmer just needs 10 points in inspiration and mantra heal+null field.

What we’re seeing here is a case of people wanting to keep all their offensive perks with free defensive boosts.

You may be non-threatening to bunkers with the damage sacrifice, but that is intended. Your builds doesn’t get to address every weakness it has.

The fact is every warrior I see wants to run full zerker, gs, and axe/shield. And they want to be able to do the ridiculous damage they already do while having high uptime.

And the answer is, you can’t. If you were allowed to do that damage to someone for prolonged periods of time, thieves would be booted and so would any spike class really in favor of a warrior who can not only spike, but has better sustained and cleaving.

I run a 0/20/30/20/0 bunker Mesmer bunker build with condition cleanse through a phantasm plus heals and runes of melandru this is likely the most anti condition Mesmer build that can be made aside from shattered conditions which because of its placement in the most anti shatter tree mesmers have is rarely taken. And I still can not keep pace with the ridiculous condition spam that is occurring. I know d/d bunker cleric eles and bunker guardians that are still having a hard time fighting back against conditions.

Fact is AOE condition spam is too strong and overpowering every other class and spec in the game. Right now the winning team is not who has the best strat and point spread. It is the team that can AOE condi nuke a point fastest. No strat no counter play. Just zerg condition nuke point cap and move on.

But that’s the point. If you were doing perfect against condition classes then you would be making them COMPLETELY useless. WTF how is that not logical that you cannot completely godkitten counter condition classes. It is so evident that these classes want to have their cake and eat it too. Such a joke. I don’t agree that a necro can go condition heavy and have burning etc, and be tanky.

LOL at some of the players who want these GC builds and to have no fear from conditions. It is not too much. Most necros can be burst down in under a minute from focus fire, where a thief getting focused fire just goes stealth and gets out. A mesmer goes invis, blinks, etc., and withdraws and can get away from the point.

Such crap that everyone wants the necro to not be able to apply conditions and be viable because “Oh i cannot fight you and you continue to do damage.” How about direct damage builds? SUch bS

And Jportrell, ill bet that your mesmer build STILL has the ability to burst someone down and take on 3 at one time. My god a mesmer calling a necro OP is like the pot calling the kettle black. Jesus.

Akumetsu.8591:

i think peoples problem is with glass the risk is huge if you get caught out at all you will die. where condition classes can almost burst as hard or harder and still have descent toughness/hp pools. while burst can still be effective it is a higher risk for not much more reward. Also aoe cleave meta is very boring to watch and to play in my eyes and in many peoples eyes.

Oh yeah, and even if they DO go GC, they have masterful escapes, invis, block, blink, shadowstep, shadow return, further stealth, mass invis, etc. etc. etc.

What does a necro have? High hps, absolutely 0 escapes, absolutely 0 blocks, abolutely 0 invulernabilities, just having to manage life force (which as a condition mancer goes away quickly) and hps, which is reliant on one kitten heal. hence why we burn down fast ourselves. Yeah, we can manage conditions, but we cannot manage direct damage. How can you guys not see that every class with high mobility is at such a huge advantage whereas a necro who engages either dies or kills you.

With regard to WVW, i have seen videos of a mesmer taking on 10 people, downing a few and still getting away.

I have seen 4 eles take on 30+ people, kill some, and get out.

I have seen videos of a thief actually kiling people on the tail of a zerg, and getting out without dying. It is amazing skill, and I do not doubt the skill needed to do what is being done with some of the classes, but show me a necro taking on 2 skilled players and I will show you a dead necro. Make it 3 and the necro just dies faster. Put 4 necros on vs 30 and watch the 4 necros get CC ping ponged and dead in under 1 minute.

Wake up and look at how your classes are actually doing in wvw and tpvp before you say you need buffs, or the other classes need to get nerfed. Such a hypocrytic argument.

After reading the whole thread ive learned:

-Gc can be counter by bunker
-Gc can be countered by condition spammer
-Gc has no place in this game

-Its ok that condition spammer can burst as hard as gc does, yet being more tanky than gc
-Its ok that counter to condition spammer is another condition spammer olny
- Its not ok that bunker can be countered by gc
-Its not ok that condition spammer can be countered by gc

Ty for showing me the true way of GW2:

Go condi spammer/bunker or go home.

Also wanted to say that gc has 3 counters: protection, weakness, block to make them cry even more

Conditions? Few condi cleans and thats all about it