The kittening part why reaper is so much OPest is that they spam a bunch of condition including perma chill, even tho i get closer then they just simply transform with full of perma stability then deals huge attack. You just can do nothing against them in both ranged and melee.
The kittening OPest point of reaper is that they have 1200 range condition perma chill spam and perma stability. These are what should be ripped off. At least one of those super 1200 ranged perma chill or perma stability need to be deleted. it is just brainlessly OP in both ranged with 1200 range and melee with perma stability.
For rev, this guys just have just too much block to heal, block, evading attack. I found somewhat vipor rev is OPer than power rev. but overally OP anyway for mainly above reason. They have huge dps as well as pretty nice sustain.
With regular core warrior (or anything) you almost can do nothing against this kitten classes. Or tell me if there is with core warrior.
Def pay2win, just no wonder. It is not like 60:40 win ratios, but just massacre.
I’ve seen a warrior that had no problems killing reapers or anyone in hot join. He was top tier player as i had some hard 1v1s against him. and sometimes he was able to beat me. Maybe Blackjack played that warrior not sure but someone said his name. This hot join match had some skilled players and i have seen that like all classes can work fine in right hands. ( I already know that) but whining is easier than learn to adapt, think a bit and get skilled.
Super OP : Rev, Reaper
Middle OP : Scrapper, Druid, Dragon Hunter, Daredevil (Daredevil highly depends on player’s personal instinct skill, meaning that this class can be super OP or normal. So I put this class in middle between Super OP and Normal)
Normal :Tempest, Chrono, Berserker
Weakest : All Core Jobs
This result was measured in NA’s dueling arena for more than 50 rounds against many classes using only core warrior (not berserker) to test everything from lowest tier to make the most fair result, to determine how much the game is pay2win right now.
Result Comment :
1. Definitely the game is pay2win.
2. Condi or hybrid dominates the game.
Disagree on that list. All the classes that were on top got their sustain chopped except for scrapper. Though thief’s attacks are buffed, they still melt just as fast. The only true bunkers I think this go-around will be druid and scrapper. I sense that people are getting worried about thief, but thief has pitiful HP. Reaper or any condi build will smoke it. Here’s my list and predictions in my opinion:
TOP TIER: Reaper, Scrapper
GREAT: Daredevil, Druid
NORMAL: Dragonhunter, Berserker, Herald
WEAK: Base Classes
BOTTOM TIER: Chrono, Tempest
Super OP : Rev, Reaper
Middle OP : Scrapper, Druid, Dragon Hunter, Daredevil (Daredevil highly depends on player’s personal instinct skill, meaning that this class can be super OP or normal. So I put this class in middle between Super OP and Normal)
Normal :Tempest, Chrono, Berserker
Weakest : All Core Jobs
This result was measured in NA’s dueling arena for more than 50 rounds against many classes using only core warrior (not berserker) to test everything from lowest tier to make the most fair result, to determine how much the game is pay2win right now.
Result Comment :
1. Definitely the game is pay2win.
2. Condi or hybrid dominates the game.
Disagree on that list. All the classes that were on top got their sustain chopped except for scrapper. Though thief’s attacks are buffed, they still melt just as fast. The only true bunkers I think this go-around will be druid and scrapper. I sense that people are getting worried about thief, but thief has pitiful HP. Reaper or any condi build will smoke it. Here’s my list and predictions in my opinion:
TOP TIER: Reaper, Scrapper
GREAT: Daredevil, Druid
NORMAL: Dragonhunter, Berserker, Herald
WEAK: Base Classes
BOTTOM TIER: Chrono, Tempest
it definitely differs based on what class you play. The list is made based on core warrior.
Have you tried stunburst Berserker? Its way tougher than you give credit for.
I’ve been toying with mace/shield and hammer, taking Discipline, Defence (Rousing Resilience and Berserker (Dead or Alive), in HotM and it’s stun potential is amazing. Your target will die if they don’t have stability or a bunch of stun breaks. Using Paladin’s Amulet and taking many stun breaks, especially Outrage, which times almost perfectly with RR trait. Now I haven’t tried this in an actual competitive environment, so I have no idea how well it’ll do against real players.
I just finished a my Mercenary build and I have to say, its just…disgusting. Not much else to say. Though I’m stuck between axe/sword and longbow. Longbow is cool and all, but its berserker ability is really lackluster. Axe’s helps get fire aura, which I then pop, then get another, and pop, and repeat. Best wtf-3-second burst (after initial landing) was 12 confusion, 13 burn, weakness, 12 bleeding, 10 vulnerability, and cripple along with 1 torment. Now I need to fix my gunflame build. Did you know that your Berserker heal resets your Berserk ability cooldown? I’ve been toying with Rifle auto, prec signet, berserk, gunflame, the heal, and stunbreak (or just something to hit the adren lvl) and gunflame. Its pretty fast and feels like Sniper.
Care to elaborate on which one if not both and why?
If you mean Chrono getting ganked to hell by Thieves thats a valid point but getting countered hard by 1 class does not make it a useless class.
It doesn’t? Perhaps you missed the collective years whereby Mesmer (and every other zerk spec save Mediguard) wasn’t in the meta for the fact that Thief hard-countered it.
TLDR I beg to differ. One class hard-countering another so heavily is precisely enough to make it “useless” by meta standards, particularly after the recent excessive Mesmer nerfs in conjunction with the excessive Thief buffs. But at least Mesmer can still Portal bot..
The hard-counter is even worse when said hard-counter has the best mobility in the game and can easily out rotate their target so they always end up engaging and can always chase their target down if they try to disengage.
If a thief gets it in their head that they want to farm you there isn’t much you can do beyond getting another player to babysit you the whole match.
The kittening part why reaper is so much OPest is that they spam a bunch of condition including perma chill, even tho i get closer then they just simply transform with full of perma stability then deals huge attack. You just can do nothing against them in both ranged and melee.
The kittening OPest point of reaper is that they have 1200 range condition perma chill spam and perma stability. These are what should be ripped off. At least one of those super 1200 ranged perma chill or perma stability need to be deleted. it is just brainlessly OP in both ranged with 1200 range and melee with perma stability.
Its really hard to take you seriously when you exaggerate things like this.
Where’s this Reaper sustain you’re speaking about?
A common mis-conception people use to make is confusing HP with Sustainability. It doesn’t matter if Necromancers would have 80k hp, they don’t really have a way of healing up the hp they’ve lost.
Rev can’t heal too, cos no stunbreaks.
For procast even dh can dmg me for 15-20k hp, and all time i would be into control.
With warrior amulet i can survive with huge hp bar, but now – can’t.
You can say, that rev has 2 healings, but with 30 seconds cd. Engineer has 1 healing with 15 seconds cd and can get much water combos.
Real rev problem – class absolutely uncompleted. He has weakness with strongs, but useless legends, bugs and too huge weakness to conditions/stuns look like stupid, except at condy and stun meta, where 2 druids at the point can daze you all time.
Rev good glasscanon, but can’t make anything real tanky (again, dead can’t dmging others. At pve or against golems rev great). Only dmg’ll safe you from death…
I Would be glad, if anet cut only offensive direction at scrapper, just want to play support/healer=)
And make something with med kit. Last buff show me how it’s useless with that horrible trait, that works only if med kit is your active gadget (swap to other gadget and you will lost +33% bonus).
If they again cut engj with scraper, would be too sad…
About changes of ventari/dwarf, upping mallux and changing his bugs, i can’t hope…
Good:
Druid
Dragon Hunter
Daredevil
Rev (tentative about this because it belongs here when sword 2 doesn’t bug out).
Okay:
Chrono
Tempest
Bad:
Base classes
Somehow worse than its core spec:
Berserker
the first accurate list in this thread, tbh
Aside from thief being the new auto attack revenant now since they way overbuffed thief aa, this list seems quite accurate (I’d probably put Thief in Tier1, then aagain there are so many terribad thiefs around I get why people occasionally beat one).
On topic, TC has:
- no clue what balance means going by his original list
- has no clue what pay2win means by his comments throught the thread.
druid is mad overpowered.. undefeated in any 1v1 scenario basically. and if you play it right you can even kill your enemies pretty quickly. especially with celestial amulet removed. so you can " bunker " with paladin or marauder amulet on any point , say far, and kill anyone who tries to take over your point. focus fire? we have like 2 stunbreakers ready at any time since celestial avatar form recharges so fast aaand you can also aid your team with heals daze, slowing enemy.. oh and did i mention our super OP pets ? yea. and the boonshare. 25 stacks of might is not even a problem in 1v1.. which your pet also has. hence the OP pets. ohh yeaaa.. you guys are talking about condi and condi OP etc etc. which also is not a problem. our CAF removes ALL conditions so whenever they actually end up stacking a ton of condis on you, you can just cleanse them all with one button press. and it recharges quickly enough so that the next time you have a lot of condi stacks on you, you can pop CAF again.
Just learn to play really. I never played warrior before. Made one after reading whine posts and people put it useless category. imo its very good for 1v1 and also win some 1v2 with very good rotation. Can run away from some zerg situation using stuns and warrior mobility together. where i just die as a necro so i dont have to wait respawn time,don’t have to run back from start on warrior i like it
Just learn to play really. I never played warrior before. Made one after reading whine posts and people put it useless category. Played berserker and imo its very good for 1v1 and also win some 1v2 with very good rotation. Can run away from some zerg situation using stuns and warrior mobility together. where i just die as a necro so i dont have to wait respawn time,don’t have to run back from start on warrior i like it
That will not solve pay2win problem for core f2p people. And also berserker warrior is overally sucks than reaper, scrapper, rev. Learn how to think balance problem in wider mindmap.
Super OP : Rev, Reaper
Middle OP : Scrapper, Druid, Dragon Hunter, Daredevil (Daredevil highly depends on player’s personal instinct skill, meaning that this class can be super OP or normal. So I put this class in middle between Super OP and Normal)
Normal :Tempest, Chrono, Berserker
Weakest : All Core Jobs
Loled
Reapers gets destroyed be tempests, heralds, daredevils, dragon hunters, but they are super OP
Scrappers immortal and can easily win 1v2, but they are middle OP
Tempets still have strong survival+offence, but they are normal
Cronomancers are as strong as they were, but they are normal
Berserker stronger than ever, but they are normal
When you fall, i will be right behind you and whisper: “Who will protect you now?”
Super OP : Rev, Reaper
Middle OP : Scrapper, Druid, Dragon Hunter, Daredevil (Daredevil highly depends on player’s personal instinct skill, meaning that this class can be super OP or normal. So I put this class in middle between Super OP and Normal)
Normal :Tempest, Chrono, Berserker
Weakest : All Core Jobs
Loled
Reapers gets destroyed be tempests, heralds, daredevils, dragon hunters, but they are super OP
Scrappers immortal and can easily win 1v2, but they are middle OP
Tempets still have strong survival+offence, but they are normal
Cronomancers are as strong as they were, but they are normal
Berserker stronger than ever, but they are normal
Remember the list differs based on your class & job and i used core warrior (not berserker) to test.
-You used a core warrior to test and was able to make the list just based off of that?
-So we should balance by the view point of one individual using one class?
-Are you an amazing warrior user that we should take advice from?
Yes the core classes need some love but if you are actually trying to be serious OP, rewrite your original message because it comes off as hyperbole with your 1200 range perma chill and also the super 1200 range perma chill. ( How do I get my attacks super?)
Super hype op:
1. Class I do not understand at all.
2. Class I hate most, because of the same reason as 1.
Mega op:
3. Class that others are better at than me.
4. High – risk / high reward class
5. Class that has a different health pool than the class I currently play
6. Class that uses conditions
Little op:
7. Class that has boons and traits
8. Class that can use dodge
Weak and up:
9. My class (only if played by me, all that perform well on it are cheater!!)
I think a lot of people are overly excited about Necro’s being more of a thing and Eles not as powerful as they were. I don’t feel Necro is as OP as people say because they’re still fairly easy targets to focus and tunnel down, and Ele aren’t nearly as bad off as people are trying to suggest (specifically Tempest).
I get the feeling a lot of these lists are still in the “theorycrafting” phase and not quite reality.
(Note: I wouldn’t say Necro is bad, but as far as team competitiveness, I’m willing to bet it won’t stand where people are suggesting it stands. This happened last time Necromancer was buffed into viability too, people overreacted.)
High Warlord Sikari (80 Reaper) / Lord Siekron (80 DH)
Warlord Sikari (80 Scrapper)
How is a power rev top tier when they got nerfed and wasn’t even top tier before the nerf?
Be sure that the list may differ based on your class.
I had 30 more duels on various classes in last 2 days after first date of this post but i still think rev is in top OP tier along with reaper, even tho rev got nerfed.
reaper; only one possible “bad” matchup (daredevil w/Unhindered Combatant). dunno where to start with this one really since i play daredevil but it’s clear reaper’s chill uptime + boon corrupt speed are both in needs of nerfs though
druid; Bristleback remains untouched. it’s both bugged and overpowered by design. something has to be done about this pet. otherwise druid without celestial is well balanced if not lacking a bit.
scrapper; hammer has largely gone untouched. the damage coeffecients on scrapper hammer are the most ridiculous thing in the game i can point to as a clear and obvious imbalance aside from bristleback. either drastically tone down the sustain mechanics on hammer (blocks/reflects/evades) or tone down the damage output (or at the very least make it skillful; most scrappers are just spamming hammer CDs and get rewarded with unaimed AoE kills far too easily).
a-tier: (balanced and strong)
daredevil; niche matchup against reaper thanks to unhindered combatant, overall good in 1v1s due to improved matchups (only outright bad matchup is scrapper, slightly bad matchups vs dragon hunter and druid) very strong team utility due to incredible single target focus ability + map mobility.
herald; similar to thief except more versatile. lacks the matchup daredevil has with reaper but otherwise brings both a strong condition dps and power dps option. great 1v1 ability, great teamplay ability.
dragonhunter; unrivaled on-point pressure at the cost of individual survivability. has really strong matchups but also very weak matchups. even the profession (thief) it historically walls is now able to 1v1 it. overall good. (only change i wanna see here is a change to Purification so that the secondary heal doesn’t go off if the trap itself does not deal damage.)
as for tempest, chronomancer, and beserker:
i don’t really know what to say about these professions quite yet other than it’s obvious the balance update has definitely shaken their respective metas to the core. that being said, we have to see what does develop as viable options (if any) for them in the current meta as players theorycraft new builds. i’ve seen chronomancers, elementalists, and beserkers try new things out with great success but i’ve also seen many that are simply unable to compete in this new environment. while it’s true they all three probably need buffs we have to see what develops as their metas and why before taking action so we can understand what needs buffing precisely.
reaper; only one possible “bad” matchup (daredevil w/Unhindered Combatant). dunno where to start with this one really since i play daredevil but it’s clear reaper’s chill uptime + boon corrupt speed are both in needs of nerfs though
druid; Bristleback remains untouched. it’s both bugged and overpowered by design. something has to be done about this pet. otherwise druid without celestial is well balanced if not lacking a bit.
scrapper; hammer has largely gone untouched. the damage coeffecients on scrapper hammer are the most ridiculous thing in the game i can point to as a clear and obvious imbalance aside from bristleback. either drastically tone down the sustain mechanics on hammer (blocks/reflects/evades) or tone down the damage output (or at the very least make it skillful; most scrappers are just spamming hammer CDs and get rewarded with unaimed AoE kills far too easily).
a-tier: (balanced and strong)
daredevil; niche matchup against reaper thanks to unhindered combatant, overall good in 1v1s due to improved matchups (only outright bad matchup is scrapper, slightly bad matchups vs dragon hunter and druid) very strong team utility due to incredible single target focus ability + map mobility.
herald; similar to thief except more versatile. lacks the matchup daredevil has with reaper but otherwise brings both a strong condition dps and power dps option. great 1v1 ability, great teamplay ability.
dragonhunter; unrivaled on-point pressure at the cost of individual survivability. has really strong matchups but also very weak matchups. even the profession (thief) it historically walls is now able to 1v1 it. overall good. (only change i wanna see here is a change to Purification so that the secondary heal doesn’t go off if the trap itself does not deal damage.)
as for tempest, chronomancer, and beserker:
i don’t really know what to say about these professions quite yet other than it’s obvious the balance update has definitely shaken their respective metas to the core. that being said, we have to see what does develop as viable options (if any) for them in the current meta as players theorycraft new builds. i’ve seen chronomancers, elementalists, and beserkers try new things out with great success but i’ve also seen many that are simply unable to compete in this new environment. while it’s true they all three probably need buffs we have to see what develops as their metas and why before taking action so we can understand what needs buffing precisely.
scrapper; hammer has largely gone untouched. the damage coeffecients on scrapper hammer are the most ridiculous thing in the game i can point to as a clear and obvious imbalance aside from bristleback. either drastically tone down the sustain mechanics on hammer (blocks/reflects/evades) or tone down the damage output (or at the very least make it skillful; most scrappers are just spamming hammer CDs and get rewarded with unaimed AoE kills far too easily).
.
Okay, but how can you want to balanced it? Every proffesion have weapon swap, ele have 4 attuments and our kits is almost useless without trait. Only 2 kits can be used as offensive weapon-and theese require explosive trait line (which can by used only with rifle and it’s squishy but still good marauder rifle build). If you take out defensive or offensive base on hammer, it will need to change triat line, and choose kit. And this will make scrapper naked, and its better stay naked at far instead meele = weapon change, meaby scrapper line close.
So increase hammer CD is not too much drastic, but touch on dmg/def can be huge nerf.
Btw: I not like hammer tough..
“Doctor suggest me, to stop play with engi because my fingers are broken.
So.. I start play scrapper. "
i would prefer to remove the invul from scrapper to fix it ( the passive trait. if you wan’t to bring the skill instead you are free to do ) and fix slip shoes ( all run in circle to exploit the proc, which can’t be dodged. and still has not be fixed ).
I feel like reaper is being heavily overrated. Yes, they do massive damage but everyone knows how easy it is to lock them down and insta kill them. They’re such easy targets and need teammate support to be extremely effective. Chill damage and/or application needs to be nerfed though.
Revenant on the other hand is still outrageously broken. Still way too much block, evade, and dodge.
As for Druid, I can’t believe people are still complaining about their pets. I have fun 1v1ing them with my thief. It’s fun pressuring them down while avoiding their pets (which is disturbingly easily if you have half a brain). Bristleback literally has one skill to avoid. I’m more afraid of that stupid quick knockdown on smokescale than anything.
It legitimately is a learn to play issue if the Bristleback’s single skill is scaring you.
Super hype op:
1. Class I do not understand at all.
2. Class I hate most, because of the same reason as 1.
Mega op:
3. Class that others are better at than me.
4. High – risk / high reward class
5. Class that has a different health pool than the class I currently play
6. Class that uses conditions
Little op:
7. Class that has boons and traits
8. Class that can use dodge
Weak and up:
9. My class (only if played by me, all that perform well on it are cheater!!)
Haha i totally agree! People most of the time are crying and don t learn to play or counter a class. For the scrapper, you complain a lot against the hammer but don t forget that the engi kit are pretty weak actually with hot and he doesnt have weapon switch. If you want a hammer nerf, lets get the weapon switch to the engi.
Can people please stop justifying eles attunement swap as a balance thing when it is hard countered by chill (unlike weapon swap) and has cd ooc (unlike weapon swap) and has its damage/cc/defense/support/movement skill spread all over the place when one weapon set can have it all?
Lily Bertine [NG]/[GiRL]
Nerfentalist of Augury Rock
scrapper; hammer has largely gone untouched. the damage coeffecients on scrapper hammer are the most ridiculous thing in the game i can point to as a clear and obvious imbalance aside from bristleback. either drastically tone down the sustain mechanics on hammer (blocks/reflects/evades) or tone down the damage output (or at the very least make it skillful; most scrappers are just spamming hammer CDs and get rewarded with unaimed AoE kills far too easily).
.
Okay, but how can you want to balanced it? Every proffesion have weapon swap, ele have 4 attuments and our kits is almost useless without trait. Only 2 kits can be used as offensive weapon-and theese require explosive trait line (which can by used only with rifle and it’s squishy but still good marauder rifle build). If you take out defensive or offensive base on hammer, it will need to change triat line, and choose kit. And this will make scrapper naked, and its better stay naked at far instead meele = weapon change, meaby scrapper line close.
So increase hammer CD is not too much drastic, but touch on dmg/def can be huge nerf.
Btw: I not like hammer tough..
???
the reason engineers can take all defensive kits/utils is because hammer gives them all the damage they need, whereas engineer used to take Tool Kit for a bulked up offense it needed. hammer’s damage is not balanced.
i would prefer to remove the invul from scrapper to fix it ( the passive trait. if you wan’t to bring the skill instead you are free to do ) and fix slip shoes ( all run in circle to exploit the proc, which can’t be dodged. and still has not be fixed ).
Self regulating defenses is a core engi trait not a scrappers. I would hate to see core engi being nerfed ( the trait exists for years) especially while elite specs are so strong.
reaper; only one possible “bad” matchup (daredevil w/Unhindered Combatant). dunno where to start with this one really since i play daredevil but it’s clear reaper’s chill uptime + boon corrupt speed are both in needs of nerfs though
Reapers doesn’t beat Daredevils, Scrappers nor Druids in a 1v1. Druids are kind of a stalemate atm. Basicly, the one who screws up ends up dying.
They are horrendous in teamfights too due to being focused down within seconds.
