Guild Wars 2

Personally I feel that every class should not have a hardcounter/hardcounters.

I feel that any two class when faced off 1vs1, equally skilled opponents should have an equal chance to win one another, depending on build and skills.

It shouldn’t be because certain mechanics and lack of mechanics on either class enables one to start a match with a strong advantage.

For example:

Thieves hardcounter mesmers
Rangers hardcounter necros
Warriors hardcounter Rangers
Guardians hardcounter thieves
Mesmers hardcounter engineers
Engineers hardcounter eles
Eles hardcounter guardians

I rather nobody hardcounters nobody and everyone has a fair chance to win based on skill/build, and not have an advantage based on certain class mechanics.

warrior doesnt hardcounter rangers…at all..

engineer is hardcounterd by condition builds, particularly necro. however, it should be noted that these hard counters only come up at an equal skill level, so you can still out play.

choovanski.5462:

engineer is hardcounterd by condition builds, particularly necro. however, it should be noted that these hard counters only come up at an equal skill level, so you can still out play.

that is what i am unhappy about actually.
two equally skilled players, but unfair fight because one happens to be using a class that is hardcountered by another.

EremiteAngel.9765:

choovanski.5462:

engineer is hardcounterd by condition builds, particularly necro. however, it should be noted that these hard counters only come up at an equal skill level, so you can still out play.

that is what i am unhappy about actually.
two equally skilled players, but unfair fight because one happens to be using a class that is hardcountered by another.

Game is not balanced 1v1, and it’s inevitable that it won’t be. See, when a build is crafted it makes sacrifices and those usually become a weakness. When you encounter a build where the focus is on your weakness you will probably lose.

That’s why 2v2 tournaments/arena are much nicer than 1v1, because you can build as a team. Few good duos have obvious hardcounters, as you can build to fill in each others weaknesses.

Wait rangers get hard countered by warriors? I almost never lose to them.

I actually love fighting those guys lol

I think to say one class hard counters another class is a bit extreme,but think your list is referring to common/meta builds of that class.

I would agree that some builds hard counters others, that’s because that build relies on something specific for it to fully function and some other builds counter that function.

I can only speak from the point of view of a ranger is the only class that I understand well. some of the builds I use almost trivialise fighting warriors but will loss to necros, engis and some ranger builds and other builds fight condi classes with ease but will lose to warriors, guards and thief.

So when i Que solo i try to use a build that can handle as many different opponents as possible and when I Que as a team i build for what my job is.

I am not aware of any ranger build that can 1 v 1 a shout bow warrior… Please share you two.

It does suck when there is NOTHING you can do, such as power ranger vs ele. However a lot of these can go either way depending on the plays, it’s not a given that thief beats Mesmer or engi beats ele or guard beats thief.

Eurantien.4632:

I am not aware of any ranger build that can 1 v 1 a shout bow warrior… Please share you two.

It does suck when there is NOTHING you can do, such as power ranger vs ele. However a lot of these can go either way depending on the plays, it’s not a given that thief beats Mesmer or engi beats ele or guard beats thief.

Trap ranger can.

StickerHappy.8052:

Eurantien.4632:

I am not aware of any ranger build that can 1 v 1 a shout bow warrior… Please share you two.

It does suck when there is NOTHING you can do, such as power ranger vs ele. However a lot of these can go either way depending on the plays, it’s not a given that thief beats Mesmer or engi beats ele or guard beats thief.

Trap ranger can.

Proof? It’s an one-time condition burst that can easily be cleansed by Warrior. While you bring all traps, you sacrifice all the cleanse or defensive skills you could have used for fighting Shoutbow.

StickerHappy.8052:

Eurantien.4632:

I am not aware of any ranger build that can 1 v 1 a shout bow warrior… Please share you two.

It does suck when there is NOTHING you can do, such as power ranger vs ele. However a lot of these can go either way depending on the plays, it’s not a given that thief beats Mesmer or engi beats ele or guard beats thief.

Trap ranger can.

Any vids or further confirmation of this working vs prominent warriors, ie Tarcis or Ozie? I can’t imagine trap ranger even having a chance.

^

Look at your word, “Prominent” what are the chances you (us casual player base) will come against them?
But hey, if you can pm them I will them, i will lose per skill wise but I promise you I will give them a run for their money.

I beat both Shoutbows and Cele eles on 6/4/4 power ranger. I’m just really used to dueling them over and over and of course you can’t beat good ones with a condi ranger. But zerker ranger can as long as you time your skills well and dodge what has to be dodged.

It may be hard for some to believe, but I will be streaming soon to prove it.

Those are players that will surely use their skills properly. It is the only true test to see how builds stand up to one another. + the chances of running into those guys would be in any tourney play… arguably “prominent” players are the only ones worth beating. Otherwise, I could play 14/14/14/14/14 sb/sb and 1 v 1 some of my friends who casually play sPvP but that doesn’t make my build viable or tell us anything about balance.

I already beat Tarcis in 1v1s by the way.

Skullface.7293:

I already beat Tarcis in 1v1s by the way.

uh…not likely
tarcis is at the top of the food chain.
I’ve not seen him lose 1v1 in stream. Not even 1v2.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Skullface.7293:

I already beat Tarcis in 1v1s by the way.

uh…not likely
tarcis is at the top of the food chain.
I’ve not seen him lose 1v1 in stream. Not even 1v2.

I will stream and highlight me successfully beating top players. I really don’t mind.

Yeah, half of this is not true.

I don’t think you should compare counters class wise but rather build wise. While d/d ele will have a better time fighting a med guard, fresh air will have issues with that. Dps guardians basically have an advantage over any zerker specs and any celestial build will have an advantage over a dps spec because they will just outsustain you. This applies if we talk about 1v1’s obviously.

And then you have those typical hard counters, but there are only two in the game at the moment: Mesmer and thief and necromancer and engi. It should be noted that the necromancer and engi hard counter applied only when most necros and engis were condi, this is not really true that much anymore. While I don’t think these hard counters are bad for the game if your spec has an advantage over one other as long as both classes are viable, I think it’s pretty bad when your class can counter many and many specs such as cele and dps.

I really don’t think the rest is a hard counter, you could have a slight edge in the fight, but it’s far from what you stated.

I don’t know much about the condi ranger vs warrior matchup, but asking someone to duel a top player to prove a point seems rather silly.

Game isn’t balanced around 1v1, hardcounters will always sprout up. Plus some meta builds just indirectly counter the other, that’s not a profession problem but a meta one.

Engi hardcounter Ele? Wait what ? How long does it take for the engi to kill the ele? 5min?
great hardcounter

and when i say hardcounter i would more say about in 5v5s
when a thief get on a mesmer, mesmer can’t do anything and gets shut down
or when a necro get on an engi, engi can’t do anything.
basically you will never see a warrior jump a ranger and the ranger become completely helpless..this is not happening then it’s not hard counter..

So many ‘hard counters’ posed by the OP that don’t exist,

Also something great used to negate hard counters 1v1, is to not have that person ever in a dueling role.

How many DPS Guards ever have to 1v1 a Cele Ele? Play in the larger fights and never look back.

If a counter or even just a matchup you’re not confident in pushes your point, either call for help or rotate to another point... In a team fight your whole team focuses a single target; that target is not always one that is countered by one or all of your team, it’s just the one with either a high threat and or easiest to put down. Specific classes will be tasked with counter-pressuring specific enemy classes, which may be counters for e.g thief vs. mesmer, or not e.g. the engineer will counter pressure the enemy thief in a team fight. Often there will be a countering class on the focus target, such as an ele on a medi guard or a medi guard on a thief, but in a team fight that focus target will be receiving heavy support in the form of condition cleanse, healing, boons, peels, counter-pressure etc. In fact, if there were no counters and the match up was the equivalent of 5 cele ele vs 5 cele ele, it would not only be boring, but a lot of the tasks classes currently have would cease to exist, removing elements of skillful, tactical, and coordinated play from the game.

Builds are more relevant than classes. The idea is that EVERY class should have a build to counter EVERY other build. Or at least, have a decent chance against it.

If a certain class has NO build for a specific encounter, then that’s a problem. Does such a situation exist?

Thief’s only counter is another Thief.

lighter.2708:

and when i say hardcounter i would more say about in 5v5s
when a thief get on a mesmer, mesmer can’t do anything and gets shut down
or when a necro get on an engi, engi can’t do anything.
basically you will never see a warrior jump a ranger and the ranger become completely helpless..this is not happening then it’s not hard counter..

This is probably the best response.

It doesn’t quite matter how well 1 class performs vs. another in a 1v1, but in the context of a 3v3-5v5.

The problem is that usually not only do certain classes fulfill a role with greater efficacy than others, but they also hard-counter them even in a group environment. The biggest problem in this regard is thief…it pushes zerker builds from ele, engie (although cele engie has comparable damage), mesmer, ranger, necro, and even warrior out of the meta because it is BAR NONE the best roamer mobility wise. On top of that, thief has top or near-top burst due to stealth + ports, while also having superior defensive mechanics (blinds, evades, stealth) that don’t require any passive defense due to being complete mitigation in most cases. In most cases when considering a roaming dps, you always end up either saying “well I can’t play X b/c thief can just delete me whenever he wants” or “even if I don’t insta-die, I still don’t bring as much to a team as a thief.” This is one reason why mesmer still has a place when played to incredibly high levels, b/c on some teams it is worth handicapping yourself with the necessity of baby-sitting a mesmer so that you can make HUGE plays via portal. With the other zerker builds you don’t bring better support OR damage, bring less map-control (mobility), while still being crapped on by any thief.

Other “hard-counters” aren’t nearly as bad b/c it means that a certain class can win a protracted 1v1 in a significant period of time. If a 1v1 is going to last more than 2 minutes, your team has time to reinforce anyway.

Why Necromancer don’t hardcounter anyone? XD
Oh…yeah… we’re bad in spvp…

Silv.9207:

Why Necromancer don’t hardcounter anyone? XD
Oh…yeah… we’re bad in spvp…

leech form can destroy everything if played right lol

i think some counters are good for the game just because its a counter it doesnt mean you dont have a chance

Silv.9207:

Why Necromancer don’t hardcounter anyone? XD
Oh…yeah… we’re bad in spvp…

So you’ve never played a condi necro and rolled your face across the keyboard when faced with a condi engi?

zinkz.7045:

Silv.9207:

Why Necromancer don’t hardcounter anyone? XD
Oh…yeah… we’re bad in spvp…

So you’ve never played a condi necro and rolled your face across the keyboard when faced with a condi engi?

What condi engi? Last time I saw Engineer that wasn’t celestial or turret in tpvp match was 5-6 months ago.

Rym.1469:

zinkz.7045:

Silv.9207:

Why Necromancer don’t hardcounter anyone? XD
Oh…yeah… we’re bad in spvp…

So you’ve never played a condi necro and rolled your face across the keyboard when faced with a condi engi?

What condi engi? Last time I saw Engineer that wasn’t celestial or turret in tpvp match was 5-6 months ago.

I still run rabid 2 kit with slick shoes a good amount. There are few things it can’t take down.

Totally agree…

I think it’s disgusting that paper beats rock, especially when paper mechanics are hard countered by scissors.

Rym.1469:

zinkz.7045:

Silv.9207:

Why Necromancer don’t hardcounter anyone? XD
Oh…yeah… we’re bad in spvp…

So you’ve never played a condi necro and rolled your face across the keyboard when faced with a condi engi?

What condi engi? Last time I saw Engineer that wasn’t celestial or turret in tpvp match was 5-6 months ago.

Well, go blame Shoutbow and Celestial Ele for driving out condition specs.

so you have never seen a thief killing a guard or a memser killing a thief?
they will have to make classes the same for everyone to have the same chances

EremiteAngel.9765:

Personally I feel that every class should not have a hardcounter/hardcounters.

I feel that any two class when faced off 1vs1, equally skilled opponents should have an equal chance to win one another, depending on build and skills.

Well, that’s where I would have to strongly disagree with you. To a certain point, it’s perfectly fine that some builds counter others, because this isn’t a 1v1-game, but a teamgame. It’s crucial for a team to rotate correctly and send the right builds against builds so they have an advantage. if every build would be equal to all others in a 1v1, rotations would only be about “how many do we send where?” and not “how many and who exactly do we send where?” This would take out a lot of strategic depth in the game.

It’s also the job of a team to know which build counters which and decide if they wanna go for a safer choice (that hasn’t as many hardcounters) or with the riskier one, that might be better against many builds, but would get hardcountered more easily.

Your logic has one fundamental flaw that newer players make: Not every builds is supposed to win in every situation. And instead of whining because you put yourself in those situations, you should avoid them, while actively searching for favourable situations.

Also, because it’s a teamgame, there is supposed to be a certain synergie between classes: Classes could help each other out in aspects where one class is weak (look at Shoutbow+Cele-Rifle, or shoutbow+anything that doesn’t have strong condi-removal), or they could make their strenghts even more impactful. If every class could do everything, it would once again take out a lot of depth in coming up with a sound teamcomposition and good rotations.

This is mostly a logic shared by ppl that are more used to Arena-type gamemodes: no1 that ever played GW1 competetively would complain about things like that.

I struggle with engineers, warriors and guardian as a mesmer. I hardcounter thieves, rangers, elementalists, and pretty much any other class except bunkers. A good engineer can just keep away from me and keep healing… warrior I just don’t see me taking much damage off him worth while, same goes for bunker guards, but I tend to kill guardians more than I do warriors.

PowerBottom.5796:

snip

This summary pretty much shows why pvp could never have 1v1 or 2v2 arena, because no class has a magical build that outclasses everything (that would be an OP class) some of the things that make builds “overpowered” is actually due to player skill and being able to beat hard counters, but in a purely theoretical situation, the hard counter always wins. People can’t grasp this concept very well so they deem a build broken, when players brought this upon themselves. A recent example of this would be a turret engi, I personally took a break during it’s rise, but I considered most of the people running them trash players, there was no “prominent” player using such a trash build, but its ease of use to camp points was a problem for newer players that don’t understand the game type. I’d rather not type a paper into this comment, but most people already know where it will go.

(my personal stance on arenas would be 3v3 (4v4 idealy) given the conquest game mode [4v4] has more opportunities to thrive based on having 2 people at the right time on one point [this makes 1v1 fights more important and the 2 people whether they should cap or defend, and the obvious theorycrafting that happens in this game mode].

Again with the professions. This game is all about specs (or builds), not professions in general.

Personally, even though I play one regularly, I just despise how DPS thieves (zerker) were designed. I just can’t compete or even have fun with my zerker ele, my zerker warrior, or even my own thief due to other thieves on the other team. Zerker ranger, mesmer, necro and engineer just become hard-mode all of a sudden is there’s a single competent zerker thief on the other team. On my engie, I can abuse toolbelt skills with static discharge with gear shield on, that usually does the job as it’s instant damage but this shouldn’t be the only profession I’m by far most worried about at all times. Those with pistol offhand with spammable stealth and those that make good use of their spammable ranged interrupt are specially troublesome. Concerning the S/D ones, it’s sometimes a lottery to hit them between so much dodge uptime, bt at least you tend to see them coming.

I’m not talking about zerker Guardian becouse these are not as bad when it comes to team fights and they can’t rotate just as well due to lack of mobility.

I don’ care about the non-existance of full condition specs. The fewer we have of them, the better.

EremiteAngel.9765:

I rather nobody hardcounters nobody and everyone has a fair chance to win based on skill/build, and not have an advantage based on certain class mechanics.

1. Everyone has a chance to win based on skill/build
2. Game where no one counters anyone is a straight way to completely destroying the game balance

Thieves > Rangers > Mesmers > everyone else.
Probably in that order. 1v1 is not balanced at all. The only thing that balances this game is Conquest, imo.

So, what counters what in Conquest?
This gets more complex with different builds @ node holding/assaulting roles. For the sake of this argument, we assume everyone is using Meta.

2v2 / 3v3
Shoutbow + Ele usually reign supreme. You can basically mix and match these two classes with anyone and they’ll be great 2v2 contenders. Everyone else are mediocre and “balanced” in comparison.

Solo Queue/Hot Joins is completely opposite and lopsided from the above info. That’s another TL:DR post.

Reuptake.5016:

EremiteAngel.9765:

I rather nobody hardcounters nobody and everyone has a fair chance to win based on skill/build, and not have an advantage based on certain class mechanics.

1. Everyone has a chance to win based on skill/build
2. Game where no one counters anyone is a straight way to completely destroying the game balance

Not really, a good game has soft counters, a bad one has hard counters, this game has several hard counters to the point for the countered build to win there either has to be a huge difference in skill level or someone basically needs to be asleep to lose.

As for balance, LOL, hardcounters are one of the problems with balance in this game, look at how many classes cannot play zerker specs, because zerker thief eats them alive (and then does the whole roaming & +1, thing better than them on top of that).

I personally believe decision making and build mastery is what makes a good build, If I can master my rotation while up against a bunker guard for example I can out beat them if I play smart, wait out their specific moves that block and cleave when I see the right opportunity an generally keep up the pressure. Same with any class in fact, as a mesmer I’ve have a good 1 v 1 win or loss with most classes. A warrior with too much hp and toughness while hitting like a truck is my only problem, though I don’t see to much of them so it isn’t enough to cause problems .. yet.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Skullface.7293:

I already beat Tarcis in 1v1s by the way.

uh…not likely
tarcis is at the top of the food chain.
I’ve not seen him lose 1v1 in stream. Not even 1v2.

lol…look ima noname…and dont know this tarcis….but 1v2?…i promise you me and a friend of mine would take tarcis out 10/10 times m8…..who does he 1v2 then?

Laraley.7695:

Yeah, half of this is not true.

I don’t think you should compare counters class wise but rather build wise. While d/d ele will have a better time fighting a med guard, fresh air will have issues with that. Dps guardians basically have an advantage over any zerker specs and any celestial build will have an advantage over a dps spec because they will just outsustain you. This applies if we talk about 1v1’s obviously.

And then you have those typical hard counters, but there are only two in the game at the moment: Mesmer and thief and necromancer and engi. It should be noted that the necromancer and engi hard counter applied only when most necros and engis were condi, this is not really true that much anymore. While I don’t think these hard counters are bad for the game if your spec has an advantage over one other as long as both classes are viable, I think it’s pretty bad when your class can counter many and many specs such as cele and dps.

I really don’t think the rest is a hard counter, you could have a slight edge in the fight, but it’s far from what you stated.

I don’t know much about the condi ranger vs warrior matchup, but asking someone to duel a top player to prove a point seems rather silly.

All true. Thief does hardcounter mesmer and condi necro vs condi engi. Cele engi however is not hardcountered by necro. So apart from Thief>mesmer the only arguably hard counter atm is power ranger vs necro and even that is questionable

Saiyan.1704:

Thieves > Rangers > Mesmers > everyone else.
Probably in that order. 1v1 is not balanced at all. The only thing that balances this game is Conquest, imo.

So, what counters what in Conquest?
This gets more complex with different builds @ node holding/assaulting roles. For the sake of this argument, we assume everyone is using Meta.

Thieves > Mesmers and Rangers

hide spoiler

In Zergs and far/home roaming abilities.

Mesmers & Rangers > Eles

hide spoiler

In node assaulting/defending roles.

Eles/War/Engi > Guardians

hide spoiler

In most 1v1 and/or 2v2 encounters

Guardian > everyone in Zerg burst AoE damage, Control and Team support.

hide spoiler

It’s really the only reason we’re even meta).

Everything > Thief in a 5v5 zerg scenario.

hide spoiler

A Thief is forced off point all too often. That reason alone is why few people dislike them. Again, if it wasn’t for their great +1 and backcap abilities they wouldn’t be utilized at all. Shadow Refuge is basically their only support option and is a hit or miss during downed states. But on a sync’d team, when it works, it works marvelously.

Necro / Mesmers / Rangers low tier?

hide spoiler

Mesmers have high damage bursts and mobility but are usually eaten by good sync teams with a Thieves.
Rangers have great single targeting abilities but lack team support at 1200+ range… or any range for that matter. Again, well sync teams with a Thief usually counter them.
Necros: Are the odd man out All honestly, they would replace Thieves if Thieves weren’t so good at +1 and backcapping nodes and controlling other clothy classes. I would take a Necro over a Mesmer and Ranger for their Lich form alone but I suppose i’m bias.

That’s not to say these classes are completely bad. For example, A Ranger attended the WTS Championships. These classes may be harder to manage successful but they’re indeed contenders.

2v2 / 3v3
Shoutbow + Ele usually reign supreme. You can basically mix and match these two classes with anyone and they’ll be great 2v2 contenders. Everyone else are mediocre and “balanced” in comparison.

Solo Queue/Hot Joins is completely opposite and lopsided from the above info. That’s another TL:DR post.

Wonder how you can say mesmer and ranger are better node defenders than Ele.. Makes 0 sense. A good celestial staff or D/D can bunker on a point forever in any 1 v 1 scenario. Basically there’s almost no counter if played right, and the fight will always drag long if it’s not +1. Sometimes even +1 will take awhile.

On the other hand, ranger has only one build that suits for 2 v 2. 1 v 1 is mediocre (unless you play condition spec, which then you’re hard-countered by shoutbow and celestial ele), and 4 v 4 is very weak due to minimal cleave, AOE, and support, and suck at defending node.

There is only two ‘hardcounters’ in this game.

Condi necro vs condi Engi and Thief vs Mes.

Everyone goes on about hardcounters, but really other matchups are just slight under handed and disadvantaged compared to the other two.

Neptune.2570:

There is only two ‘hardcounters’ in this game.

Condi necro vs condi Engi and Thief vs Mes.

Everyone goes on about hardcounters, but really other matchups are just slight under handed and disadvantaged compared to the other two.

If condition spec isn’t hard-countered by shoutbow and celestial ele, they wouldn’t have be driven out of High Tier competitive scene completely, Basically there’re like 0 people playing pure condition spec in ToL 3. I remembered condition spec used to be claimed OP.

EremiteAngel.9765:

Thieves hardcounter mesmers YES
Rangers hardcounter necros No
Warriors hardcounter Rangers No
Guardians hardcounter thieves Yes
Mesmers hardcounter engineers No
Engineers hardcounter eles No
Eles hardcounter guardians No

I wouldn’t say we have lots of hardcounters at all really…

Also keep in mind thief vs mes is only during team fights on a specific build.

1v1 it is not a hard counter.