Guild Wars 2

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Such salt in this thread. I don’t get it really, what else do you want to see to admit elo hell doesnt exist? People arguing against this desperately cling on to the fact that he is an ESL player and he ‘took advantage of less skilled players’ or was in ‘lucky comps’…

Him being an ESL player doesn’t mean anything, its just allowed us to see a whole enjoyable journey of bronze to legendary – where he belongs. If a gold skill level player streamed his journey would end at gold, if he is silver skill level it would end at silver etc. It may take shorter or longer to get there, as luck isn’t nonexistant. But this shows that whoever you are, you will reach where you belong if you keep playing. If you cannot move anymore, then thats where you belong.

Pregnantman.8259:

If a gold skill level player streamed his journey would end at gold, if he is silver skill level it would end at silver etc. It may take shorter or longer to get there, as luck isn’t nonexistant. But this shows that whoever you are, you will reach where you belong if you keep playing.

Everyone, read the above words again. That’s what this whole thing says. You will find your level.

The fact that when you queue with higher-mmr friends you can do all right does not make you as good a player. Back before most of my guildies quit, I would sometimes queue with some of them who were better players than I. We would be matched against very good players. The fact that I could hold my own and we could win did not mean that I was a very good player; it meant that I was good enough not to be a glaring liability. The fact that Kevin Durant and Andre Iguodala both play in the same league doesn’t mean they both contribute equally to the team’s ability to win.

Nothelseth climbed out of Bronze with an 80% win rate. This means that despite being among the best, he lost 20% of his games at the bottom tier. If you are naturally a Platinum-level player, perhaps you escape with a 72% win rate. If you’re gold, maybe you make it out after winning 65%. It may take longer, but the point is that your superiority and greater contribution to the winning effort will, over time, result in victories.

The system is automated. It can only operate with the results it generates. It will take time to smooth results toward accuracy. If you are streaking up and down around a certain point, this is probably you stabilizing toward your actual level. There may be a handful of edge cases where the system is not working. Whoever you are, you are almost certainly not one of them.

There may be times in your life when you face injustice, negative discrimination, or misfortune that unfairly demands more of you than of others and troubles your progress through life. These times will not be in the mmr system in a bloody video game.

It’s easy to say eli hell doesn’t exist…maybe I should record my matches and show people my matches…most times no matter what you do, you get players that actively will try to lose matches and you just need a single player to screw everybody else

Elo hell exists as once your MMR is established, any form of self-improvement is pointless because the system will shot you down

New accounts start at mid MMR so an ESL level player with his knowledged can easily farm newbs at mid range with his new account, easily reach 80% win rate and reach legendary

If on other hand you try to improve your MMR with your old account, the system will simply shot you down the second you go over 50/50.

Nobody denies that esl players are better but the game will punish you once you reach 50/50 mmr on one account..no matter what…you will start losing the second you go over it.

Also this condescending attitude is getting old, people here talking have no way to see what matches are like for people claiming elo hell exist

Pregnantman.8259:

Such salt in this thread. I don’t get it really, what else do you want to see to admit elo hell doesnt exist? People arguing against this desperately cling on to the fact that he is an ESL player and he ‘took advantage of less skilled players’ or was in ‘lucky comps’…

Him being an ESL player doesn’t mean anything, its just allowed us to see a whole enjoyable journey of bronze to legendary – where he belongs. If a gold skill level player streamed his journey would end at gold, if he is silver skill level it would end at silver etc. It may take shorter or longer to get there, as luck isn’t nonexistant. But this shows that whoever you are, you will reach where you belong if you keep playing. If you cannot move anymore, then thats where you belong.

I thought I would be done commenting on this thread, but this was just to irresistible to pass on.
I suppose the advice he’s giving to other players on a different thread doesn’t matter then (the basis for his advice is his level and skill, which really means nothing)? Therefore, everyone should ignore it entirely because being an elite level (legendary rank) player makes him an unreliable source, especially when it comes to playing against people that he clearly out classes because they have not had sufficient time to accrue and develop their knowledge and skill.

Supreme.3164:

It’s easy to say eli hell doesn’t exist…maybe I should record my matches and show people my matches…most times no matter what you do, you get players that actively will try to lose matches and you just need a single player to screw everybody else

Elo hell exists as once your MMR is established, any form of self-improvement is pointless because the system will shot you down

New accounts start at mid MMR so an ESL level player with his knowledged can easily farm newbs at mid range with his new account, easily reach 80% win rate and reach legendary

If on other hand you try to improve your MMR with your old account, the system will simply shot you down the second you go over 50/50.

Nobody denies that esl players are better but the game will punish you once you reach 50/50 mmr on one account..no matter what…you will start losing the second you go over it.

Also this condescending attitude is getting old, people here talking have no way to see what matches are like for people claiming elo hell exist

I for one would love to see your games.

Supreme.3164:

It’s easy to say eli hell doesn’t exist…maybe I should record my matches and show people my matches…most times no matter what you do, you get players that actively will try to lose matches and you just need a single player to screw everybody else

Elo hell exists as once your MMR is established, any form of self-improvement is pointless because the system will shot you down

New accounts start at mid MMR so an ESL level player with his knowledged can easily farm newbs at mid range with his new account, easily reach 80% win rate and reach legendary

If on other hand you try to improve your MMR with your old account, the system will simply shot you down the second you go over 50/50.

Nobody denies that esl players are better but the game will punish you once you reach 50/50 mmr on one account..no matter what…you will start losing the second you go over it.

Also this condescending attitude is getting old, people here talking have no way to see what matches are like for people claiming elo hell exist

People on this forum are the same “kind” you meet in every online community, game, stream or forums. Most don’t think, just troll or just want to stirr kitten up.
Just ignore those.

I am not condenscending or anything. Yes, matchmaking can be borked sometimes and when you try to rise above with 50 wr you will get harder games. Its not going to be as pretty as helseth streamed. But if you keep doing it you are bound to get to where you belong.

Also, about older accounts having lower MMRs, its not like someone else played them
and got those. If low MMR from previous season is the problem, now is the chance to improve it for next season at the very least. The fact that ESL players can climb to leaderboards and even reach where their main account is with a new account further shows skill plays a large part.

The system hits average to above average players by forcing them to play maybe hundreds of matches to reach their level unless they got lucky (or had been smart duoing) in placement matches. That more or less the the problem. Broze/silver players will be where they belong and legendary will get up to platin in a resonable ammount of time. The main issue is somewhere inbetween. Also players like me that can only play one class at a good manual level are handycaped and i assume this is a large group.

Soothsayer.9206:

Pregnantman.8259:

Such salt in this thread. I don’t get it really, what else do you want to see to admit elo hell doesnt exist? People arguing against this desperately cling on to the fact that he is an ESL player and he ‘took advantage of less skilled players’ or was in ‘lucky comps’…

Him being an ESL player doesn’t mean anything, its just allowed us to see a whole enjoyable journey of bronze to legendary – where he belongs. If a gold skill level player streamed his journey would end at gold, if he is silver skill level it would end at silver etc. It may take shorter or longer to get there, as luck isn’t nonexistant. But this shows that whoever you are, you will reach where you belong if you keep playing. If you cannot move anymore, then thats where you belong.

I thought I would be done commenting on this thread, but this was just to irresistible to pass on.
I suppose the advice he’s giving to other players on a different thread doesn’t matter then (the basis for his advice is his level and skill, which really means nothing)? Therefore, everyone should ignore it entirely because being an elite level (legendary rank) player makes him an unreliable source, especially when it comes to playing against people that he clearly out classes because they have not had sufficient time to accrue and develop their knowledge and skill.

A lot of the advise is based on how to beat X profession as Y class and he gives that advise nicely. He told a guy how to beat mesmer with warrior saying that condi warrior shouldn’t win and will have a hard time but GS with mace shield and unblockable signet will destroy mesmer. You wait till the mesmer uses shield 4 then signet of might and use unblockable headbutt.

He gives advise on when to get a clone from phase retreat and when not to and these are just from the few posts I could be bothered to read on the last page. I wouldn’t call that advise to just ignore nor elitist and only specific to his level.

Looks like too many people reached legendary rank is previous system…too many.

Eh it was easy to expect so much salt on forums. 4 seasons in row people where living like in dream that everything is possible if you have time (totally Anet fault).

After wake up slap it will take some time for people to reasonably think about new ranked system. Then maybe someday we will have some discussion about mmr and crazy things that sometimes happens (system is not perfect).

Wolfric.9380:

The system hits average to above average players by forcing them to play maybe hundreds of matches to reach their level unless they got lucky (or had been smart duoing) in placement matches. That more or less the the problem. Broze/silver players will be where they belong and legendary will get up to platin in a resonable ammount of time. The main issue is somewhere inbetween. Also players like me that can only play one class at a good manual level are handycaped and i assume this is a large group.

The self-improvement in this case would be to learn another class to play. As you say, you are actively handicapping yourself by not doing so. Especially if you play a class that doesn’t stack well. It’s just a question of rising up to the challenge. Any argument to the contrary is basically an excuse.

Tbh, I’ve never quite understood why people limit themselves to playing just 1 class. For me the concept of maining just means the class I play the most. That is a thing that will change from time to time. Ofc if you become the foremost authority on a specific class, like lordhelseth is with a mesmer, you are actively handicapping yourself by NOT playing that class. Most people, however, don’t have the time and/or the capacity to do that.

How to carry with en auramancer ele ?
I can’t do. the same like hellseth with an ele
Sure u can go far and play there 1v2 oder 1v3 but I wont get a kill
And i also don’t get a kill in a 1v1.
So what’s the best way to carry as an ele ? Support crappy mates in teamfights and then they lose it anyways ?
Or just go far and do the same stuff like hellseth with a mesmer ?

NoNameNoob.9758:

How to carry with en auramancer ele ?
I can’t do. the same like hellseth with an ele
Sure u can go far and play there 1v2 oder 1v3 but I wont get a kill
And i also don’t get a kill in a 1v1.
So what’s the best way to carry as an ele ? Support crappy mates in teamfights and then they lose it anyways ?
Or just go far and do the same stuff like hellseth with a mesmer ?

Probably duoq is the way to go if you are playing ele. Just keep asking the better players in your random teams for a few duoq matches

Mr Godlike.6098:

Looks like too many people reached legendary rank is previous system…too many.

Eh it was easy to expect so much salt on forums. 4 seasons in row people where living like in dream that everything is possible if you have time (totally Anet fault).

After wake up slap it will take some time for people to reasonably think about new ranked system. Then maybe someday we will have some discussion about mmr and crazy things that sometimes happens (system is not perfect).

I totally agree with this. Everyone thinks they belong to legendary because they were in that division in the past seasons, but it was ridiculously easy to reach the first tier of legendary.

I also expected myself to get in the new legendary division, but after quite a few matches it seems I’m mostly playing with / against players of equal skill at mid plat level, so probably that’s where I belong. Hard to face the truth

azyume.6321:

You stop tanking and go help your teammates. Those things also happened to NotHelseth during the streams. What he did was to disengage from far, got to mid, win the cap, push back to far to wait for the respawns. If your team can’t get the point by themselves, you force it and take it for them to hold while you tank elsewhere.

It’s quite a challange to do so without many effective mobility skills. Mostly as a guardian I get to hold a bunch for a couple of seconds before I am burned out due to CC locks (speaking about 3v1 situations). If I try to run away I’ll just die because of being chased down between points.

For ele duo Q is a good way. I won all matches in duo with a gold player till now … But meta auramancer is not optimal. More damage is better to carry random groups. Solo Q it´s a pain in silver with ele …. Warrior using a high mobile burst build is way more effective, even when i can´t win some duels that i win with ele.

@ Yannir.4132 so i know … but it doesn´t make me and many others happy. I already use warrior as backup swaping if i think it´s better … But manually i am not as good with war as ele but still enough to burst down most siver or bronze players in seconds. Maybe i will reach gold this season but its already grinding. But you can see me using another class as improvment just it has only minor impact on my ele gameplay, which seems to be good enough for gold.

apharma.3741:

Soothsayer.9206:

Pregnantman.8259:

Such salt in this thread. I don’t get it really, what else do you want to see to admit elo hell doesnt exist? People arguing against this desperately cling on to the fact that he is an ESL player and he ‘took advantage of less skilled players’ or was in ‘lucky comps’…

Him being an ESL player doesn’t mean anything, its just allowed us to see a whole enjoyable journey of bronze to legendary – where he belongs. If a gold skill level player streamed his journey would end at gold, if he is silver skill level it would end at silver etc. It may take shorter or longer to get there, as luck isn’t nonexistant. But this shows that whoever you are, you will reach where you belong if you keep playing. If you cannot move anymore, then thats where you belong.

I thought I would be done commenting on this thread, but this was just to irresistible to pass on.
I suppose the advice he’s giving to other players on a different thread doesn’t matter then (the basis for his advice is his level and skill, which really means nothing)? Therefore, everyone should ignore it entirely because being an elite level (legendary rank) player makes him an unreliable source, especially when it comes to playing against people that he clearly out classes because they have not had sufficient time to accrue and develop their knowledge and skill.

A lot of the advise is based on how to beat X profession as Y class and he gives that advise nicely. He told a guy how to beat mesmer with warrior saying that condi warrior shouldn’t win and will have a hard time but GS with mace shield and unblockable signet will destroy mesmer. You wait till the mesmer uses shield 4 then signet of might and use unblockable headbutt.

He gives advise on when to get a clone from phase retreat and when not to and these are just from the few posts I could be bothered to read on the last page. I wouldn’t call that advise to just ignore nor elitist and only specific to his level.

I am not questioning his intent, in fact that has nothing to do why I brought it up. Having stated this, this will be my last post on this thread, but I just want to share a few final thoughts. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, or put another way the road to MMR/ELO hell is paved with good intentions. I only think there really are those who struggle as a result of the MMR, so I don’t want to minimize their experiences – it’s a computer program (a good one by all accounts) but it cannot/does not account every kind of variable. He are my final thoughts:
1) He is a legendary ranked player who earned his legendary rank then subsequently tanked his MMR to play against others that could not compete on his level.
2) The outcome is nothing short of what should be expected of a legendary ranked player; he did what he was supposed to do.
3) In trying to dispute the existence of ELO/MMR gehenna, he actually created it for other people (both by tanking his MMR – he also tanked it for others who were on his team because the only way to tank it is to lose; furthermore, he played against players who had no chance at winning due to their inexperience/knowledge and rank – that’s why they are still in lower ranks thus having no real chance at advancement).
4)He cannot and has not recreated many of the circumstance that people are complaining about, therefore, he cannot and did not prove his premise. at best, he proved that a legendary ranked player can climb out of lower ranks, at worst you can grind your way out.

Soothsayer.9206:

3) In trying to dispute the existence of ELO/MMR gehenna, he actually created it for other people (both by tanking his MMR – he also tanked it for others who were on his team because the only way to tank it is to lose; furthermore, he played against players who had no chance at winning due to their inexperience/knowledge and rank – that’s why they are still in lower ranks thus having no real chance at advancement).

be careful, for saying that , and calling it for its real name i get a message deleted and received a warning from forum moderators

Soothsayer.9206:

apharma.3741:

Soothsayer.9206:

Pregnantman.8259:

Such salt in this thread. I don’t get it really, what else do you want to see to admit elo hell doesnt exist? People arguing against this desperately cling on to the fact that he is an ESL player and he ‘took advantage of less skilled players’ or was in ‘lucky comps’…

Him being an ESL player doesn’t mean anything, its just allowed us to see a whole enjoyable journey of bronze to legendary – where he belongs. If a gold skill level player streamed his journey would end at gold, if he is silver skill level it would end at silver etc. It may take shorter or longer to get there, as luck isn’t nonexistant. But this shows that whoever you are, you will reach where you belong if you keep playing. If you cannot move anymore, then thats where you belong.

I thought I would be done commenting on this thread, but this was just to irresistible to pass on.
I suppose the advice he’s giving to other players on a different thread doesn’t matter then (the basis for his advice is his level and skill, which really means nothing)? Therefore, everyone should ignore it entirely because being an elite level (legendary rank) player makes him an unreliable source, especially when it comes to playing against people that he clearly out classes because they have not had sufficient time to accrue and develop their knowledge and skill.

A lot of the advise is based on how to beat X profession as Y class and he gives that advise nicely. He told a guy how to beat mesmer with warrior saying that condi warrior shouldn’t win and will have a hard time but GS with mace shield and unblockable signet will destroy mesmer. You wait till the mesmer uses shield 4 then signet of might and use unblockable headbutt.

He gives advise on when to get a clone from phase retreat and when not to and these are just from the few posts I could be bothered to read on the last page. I wouldn’t call that advise to just ignore nor elitist and only specific to his level.

I am not questioning his intent, in fact that has nothing to do why I brought it up. Having stated this, this will be my last post on this thread, but I just want to share a few final thoughts. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, or put another way the road to MMR/ELO hell is paved with good intentions. I only think there really are those who struggle as a result of the MMR, so I don’t want to minimize their experiences – it’s a computer program (a good one by all accounts) but it cannot/does not account every kind of variable. He are my final thoughts:
1) He is a legendary ranked player who earned his legendary rank then subsequently tanked his MMR to play against others that could not compete on his level.
2) The outcome is nothing short of what should be expected of a legendary ranked player; he did what he was supposed to do.
3) In trying to dispute the existence of ELO/MMR gehenna, he actually created it for other people (both by tanking his MMR – he also tanked it for others who were on his team because the only way to tank it is to lose; furthermore, he played against players who had no chance at winning due to their inexperience/knowledge and rank – that’s why they are still in lower ranks thus having no real chance at advancement).
4)He cannot and has not recreated many of the circumstance that people are complaining about, therefore, he cannot and did not prove his premise. at best, he proved that a legendary ranked player can climb out of lower ranks, at worst you can grind your way out.

Maybe you should read more about it, he didn’t tank his MMR he had an alt account from a while ago that hadn’t seen much or any play on. When he tried to do his placement matches he found he had to be a certain rank to play ranked.

He then played unranked to get the PvP rank to be able to play ranked, I was there on the opposite team mostly. He then asked Kol to do the placement matches with an utterly terrible venom build on thief (Kol still killed a few and I think won a match) and that got him a 600 rating, right at the bottom of bronze.

He didn’t create any form of Elo hell for anyone, look at that win rate, he was gone out of divisions before bed have a chance to properly affect people’s ratings assuming they’ve played a decent number of games this season.

Gl doing this with ele/nec/rev lol

Supreme.3164:

It’s easy to say eli hell doesn’t exist…maybe I should record my matches and show people my matches…most times no matter what you do, you get players that actively will try to lose matches and you just need a single player to screw everybody else

Elo hell exists as once your MMR is established, any form of self-improvement is pointless because the system will shot you down

New accounts start at mid MMR so an ESL level player with his knowledged can easily farm newbs at mid range with his new account, easily reach 80% win rate and reach legendary

If on other hand you try to improve your MMR with your old account, the system will simply shot you down the second you go over 50/50.

Nobody denies that esl players are better but the game will punish you once you reach 50/50 mmr on one account..no matter what…you will start losing the second you go over it.

Also this condescending attitude is getting old, people here talking have no way to see what matches are like for people claiming elo hell exist

Then show us videos already !!

Noone can take any complaint about ELO Hell serious if we dont know for sure that it is not just your fault and your lacking rotations / duel skills

You can only profit by posting Videos:

• 1) You prove that elo hell exists and finally noone can argue against you
• or 2) people see that you are lacking the necessary skills and can give you advice on how to improve

But stop complaining without giving any evidence!
and then expect everyone to believe a random player who claims that he is much better than the System says he is…

So just help us and yourself with Video proof please

Supreme.3164:

It’s easy to say eli hell doesn’t exist…maybe I should record my matches and show people my matches..

Great idea!

I’ll give the same idea to you that I’ve given to plenty of other people: record your gameplay. I want a consistent view of how you play so 3 consecutive matches seem like a good idea. If it turns out that your gameplay seems better than all of your teammates and all of your opponents and that you’re only kept down by ‘’the people in your matches’’ then I’ll give you 500g.

No one is only kept down by others regulary …. Your odds increase the more skill diffrence is and the better your class/build is adapted to the match. Average players using their main class will have a hard time to carry even if noticeable better but not superior.
If you play a high mobiele map control class at a superior level you can carry and manage that 80%. If not MMR system will think more and more you are where you deserve and you start grinding despite being constantly better.

So, Helseth’s established that a player who belongs at the very top can get to the top.

It’s easy to dismiss this as ‘well, of course’, but this is an important verification of the ability of the system to identify the best players, albeit over a large number of games. It’s probably reasonable to say that if someone is stuck at silver, they’re not being denied their rightful place in the top 250 by the whims of luck and matchmaking.

So, the system is good at picking out the overall winners… however, is it a decent experience for more average player?

As I’ve said before… I think one thing that people on both sides of the debate needs to acknowledge is the role that luck typically plays for the average player. From my observation, three things seem to influence how much of a role luck plays:

1) Your own, actual (not MMR-rated) skill level compared to the ‘average’ of players at your MMR level. A player who should be much higher than they are will be able to carry otherwise bad matchups, and so minimise the role of luck. A player who should be much lower may be so much of a handicap that they can’t be carried, and so luck might not help them. For a player who’s roughly where they should be, though, they can’t really be expected to carry on a regular basis, nor will their presence undermine an otherwise good matchup… so a lot of matches will come down to how lucky they are with their teammates and opposition. Over an infinite number of games this will even out, but it does have the potential for someone to shoot up or down based on a streak of good or bad matchups, respectively.
2) The volatility of the MMR’s judgement of player’s skill levels around your tier versus actual skill levels. If someone’s rated lower than they should be, that’s lucky for you if they’re on your team, unlucky if they’re on the enemy team, and vice versa for someone who’s rated higher than they should be. I may be wrong, but the impression I get is that most people in high platinum and above actually belong there – you don’t get to stay up there for long if you don’t have a reasonable idea of what you’re doing (see #1). At the lower tiers, you can get people in gold and high silver who probably belong in bronze, and people in bronze who may belong in high gold… and where those players end up is a matter of luck.
3) The pool of players at the time you play. Lower populations means the MMR is more likely to make unbalanced matchups. Good for players at the top, since the unbalanced matchups then tend to be in their favour, but for people around the middle… well, it then becomes a question of whether the legendary players that the matchmaker has thrown into a non-legendary game are smurfing with or against you.

Kitty’s rise… pretty much eliminated luck as a factor as much as possible. Helseth was largely playing in prime time, when he was in the lowest tiers he seriously outclassed most players and thus the effect of factor 1 was minimised, and as he approached his proper level, he’d be playing with and against people who know what they’re doing and the effect of factor 2 is minimised.

However, let’s consider a player who should be in gold who, for whatever reason (unlucky in the placement matches, say), is stuck in bronze. From what I’ve read (never dropped that far myself), the average skill level at bronze doesn’t actually seem to be that much lower than the average skill level in gold, probably because of gold players that should be in bronze and vice versa. So both of factors 1 and 2 are in play to a reasonably strong effect: sometimes our hypothetical player will be in a game where they’re stacked with other players who should be in gold or silver and sweep all before them, sometimes our hypothetical player will be trying to carry a team where the opposing team is stacked with players who should be higher. Let’s say that, all things considered, this player achieves a 60% win rate. Assuming an average of fifteen points for a win or loss, this means that the player will get an average of 30 points per ten matches, or 3 points per match. That’s going to be a long, painful process.

Unfortunately, I don’t think there’s a lot that can be done to address this – luck will always be part of the system. However, I think there are some improvements that can be made:

First, I’ve seen a lot that’s been said that indicates that the gain or loss of rating is based on how your OWN rating compares to the average rating of the enemy team, not on how your TEAM’s rating compares to the enemy team. This seems to me to be a little unfair, since it’s easy for someone to be put into a match in which the odds are against them, but where they’ll get punished harshly for losing and receive little benefit from winning. Consider, for instance, the following matchup:

Team 1: 1400, 1100, 1100, 1100, 1100, average 1160
Team 2: 1200, 1200, 1200, 1200, 1200, average 1200

The 1400 player has been put in a position where they’re being expected to carry a team which is at a disadvantage. If they manage to have a high impact on the match and succeed, they get a fairly small boost because the MMR figures that they were a 1400 player against an average 1200 team and was “supposed” to win, even if the team was actually at a disadvantage. Meanwhile, those 1100 players who just got carried get a large reward for being lucky enough to get carried. If they don’t make it, though, even if they ALMOST make it and fail 499-500 (or one of those frustrating 500-500 losses), they get a hefty penalty while the 1100 players get a smaller penalty.

The perverse effect of the system is that the best results tend to come when, in the MM’s expectation, the player had the least impact on the outcome. Win a game where the MM judges that you’re the weakest player and you’re being carried? Big bonus. Win a game where the MM judges that you’re expected to carry the team? Small bonus. Lose a game where the MM judges that you’re the weakest player and the team needs to carry you? Small penalty, even if it was you that caused the team to lose. Lose a game where the MM was asking you to carry and you did your best, but you just couldn’t make up for the gap between your team and the enemy team? Large penalty, made particularly frustrating because it felt like you were doing well in a tough game and it was your teammates that let you down.

As well as the frustration that can come from the point gain/loss not actually reflecting how hard the matchup really was, I think this can exacerbate the effect of luck. A player who gets lucky and is carried for several games in a row doesn’t just get a set of games that they won more through luck than their own skill – those games may actually be worth more than the games that they won through their own skill. Meanwhile, a player who gets unlucky and has several bad teams in a row is not just getting losses they might not deserve, but those losses may be costing them more than matches that they lost due to their own shortcomings. This exacerbates the potential for someone to be pushed higher and lower than they should be by a lucky or unlucky streak, and while they’ll likely eventually settle back to where they should be, in the meantime they’re contributing to factor 2.

The second issue, I think, is how people play with different professions. The matchmaker assumes people are equally skilled with every profession, but most aren’t. Generally, people won’t take their weaker professions into league, but even then, people may well have several professions they’ll take into league, whether to swap when they look at the profession balance on the teams or because they’re after particular achievements. If, hypothetically, we have a player who should be gold 3 with one profession and they should be silver 2 with another profession, and they play both equally and end up in gold 1, that player is a contribution to factor 2 – depending on what profession they’re playing, they’re either a bit better than their MMR assumes or a bit worse, they’re never actually judged correctly by the MMR.

My approach to rectify this, although it will probably be a lot of work and may create other problems, would be:

1) Give people different MMRs for different professions.
2) Have the matchmaker take profession into account when matchmaking (avoiding games with 3 thieves on one team and 3 guardians on the other, for instance).
3) Don’t let people swap after the matching has happened.

(3 is actually something that I’d really like to see made practical. Under the current system, it’s really necessary to be able to switch to correct a bad comp. But it’s something that can easily get abused, and it provides an advantage to players with shorter load times (if your load time is short enough, you can, in principle, identify the enemy team’s builds in the initial engagement, then switch to a character with a build that counters them, while players with longer load times are stuck in their build due to skill swapping being locked.))

One of the problems of this whole fully scientific project of Helseth is that everyone thinks the majority of players plays ranked to win. And this isn’t the case – at least on NA.

You will find a huge number of players that don’t even care if they win a match or their team wins a match. They want to gain three pips per match and that’s their big goal.

They don’t read teamchat, they don’t win a 3v1 mid and they afk because the ice cream truck is coming. Many of them don’t even speak English.

So, there is a nice project for Helseth.

How about you play a guardian to legend on NA next?

draxynnic.3719:

1) Your own, actual (not MMR-rated) skill level compared to the ‘average’ of players at your MMR level. A player who should be much higher than they are will be able to carry otherwise bad matchups, and so minimise the role of luck. A player who should be much lower may be so much of a handicap that they can’t be carried, and so luck might not help them. For a player who’s roughly where they should be, though, they can’t really be expected to carry on a regular basis, nor will their presence undermine an otherwise good matchup… so a lot of matches will come down to how lucky they are with their teammates and opposition. Over an infinite number of games this will even out, but it does have the potential for someone to shoot up or down based on a streak of good or bad matchups, respectively.

That is one very important point in my opinion. We know that the playerbase is quite small so a series of good or bad games happens.
But having a bad streak doesn’t mean you are stuck where you ended up nor that it’s your actual rating. You have to accept that the system can’t be perfect and get a rough idea of where you are standing. That doesn’t mean that you went down to silver as a legendary skilled player, but it means that you can drop to mid gold as a platinum player if you have a bad streak.
Then you yourself have to know that this isn’t where you belong and that you can fight your way back up without crying in the forums.
But I’m sure you’ll also eventually have a lucky streak upwards when you will just have to face and accept your limits, which many people will obviously just ignore. They’ll be like “oh I’ve made it to the peak of my rating once so that is obviously where I belong permanently”.
You have to objectively reflect on yourself. Stop blaming the system for everything. Yes, it has flaws. Yes, it can give you outrageous matches, but everything will even out on average. Big fluctuations happen because the sample size is too small.
I mean it took one of the worlds best players 140 games to go from bronze to legendary with an 85% winrate. Now imagine how long it takes players to climb with maybe 60%. That happens. But you climbing slowly doesn’t mean not climbing at all. Maybe you just don’t have enaugh games for statistics to apply.
But I’m sure things will even out in the next season. You’ll get a new start after the soft reset and you can show where you really belong.

If we made climbing easier then fluctuation would be even harder. You can’t have everything.
Systems like this need a lot of time to get in balance, so give it time.

draxynnic.3719 described it quite long but well. This also reflects my opinion.
I also strongly recomend to use per class MMR and lock professions. Evan said the system support it but it seems Anet doesn´t dare to do it.

Systems like this need a lot of time to get in balance, so give it time.

This is true but if players need 500+ games to actually settle where they should be many will quit before in grind frustration.

nothelseth.4621:

Supreme.3164:

It’s easy to say eli hell doesn’t exist…maybe I should record my matches and show people my matches..

Great idea!

I’ll give the same idea to you that I’ve given to plenty of other people: record your gameplay. I want a consistent view of how you play so 3 consecutive matches seem like a good idea. If it turns out that your gameplay seems better than all of your teammates and all of your opponents and that you’re only kept down by ‘’the people in your matches’’ then I’ll give you 500g.

Does this count for wins, helseth? I’d like to take you up on that hahaha

Made around 800 games in this league, no alt account, several characters, went from to platinium 1 to platinium 2 back to silver 1, got back to gold 3 then gold 1 etc… with an average 49,XX win ratio (lost a few more than I won -4/5- on 800) and really from my experience it proves nothing much, and really nothing have been debunked. You are indeed part of team and the MMR reflect the sum of the teams you have been in and your own skill (the AND is important). So it CAN’T reflect accuratly the skill of a player.

You will never be able to get out of some leagues if you don’t have sheer luck in the teams you get. Then you stabilize and you’ll need luck again to move (compo, afks, short dc, templates everything count more or less).

So how can a solo player drag teams threw silver and gold like he did? Only one answer : playing mesmer with pro skills, NO alternative. Not any other class can move around like mesmer and hope survive and win 1v 2, 1 v 3. If you don’t have his skills it doesn’t work, if ONE skill was removed (portal), the class wouldn’t even be able to do that even with pro skills.

I really can tell that the level of a personn is not his rank or MMR, really NOT and the match making is really really bad. Doesn’t take much into account aside MMR (and in a large scale that match higher rank vs total scrubs that just come in), at the very least it should take into account the number of matches played and played with this class and avoid duplicate classes.

Shaogin.2679:

I’m really curious about all the logic flying around here. What conditions exactly must a player go through to prove that you will eventually end up in the division you belong? Apparently seeing a player start in bronze and climb to legend isn’t good enough. So what would it take to show you guys that it is possible, or are you guys dead set on denying ant evidence that doesn’t support your claims?

I have contrary evidence, I have circulated from gold to top 250 leaderboard to low gold to platinum to mid gold to platinum now down in gold. I am ending up nowhere, because my outcome is far more dependent on the random team I get than my own play. I’ve had far harder games in low gold for instance than when above rank 250. There is no settling for me so far just endless streaky cycling.

The theory that games are influenced overly by random chance is not debunked by someone making it from bronze to legendary. The argument you are making that you will eventually settle is irrelevant if that can’t happen in the time a season of play takes place, and is disproven by a simple counter example of people not settling. Which you’ve been given several of I see.

I could do the logical fallacy for you but I think your error in logic is likely self evident at this point.

Of course if you are a top 1% player you’ll end up in legendary eventually. I agree in general that elo hell doesn’t exist but there is a lot of luck in the 1450-1750 MMR range or so for the good not great player in where you’ll end up. They need to implement some kind of minimum game played to minimize the luck factor. By luck I mean things like getting stuck with bad comps or just getting lucky with whats in the queue or disconnects. I agree that stuff evens out over time but thats the key phrase over time. Its stupid that in a two month season we are going to have people ranked highly with less then 100 games played. They also need to do a hard MMR reset because it was very helpful for placement to have a high mmr in the past but why should it a lot of people rolled up high MMRs in group play and then they do modest placement of like 6-4 or 7-3 and start with like a 1650-1700MMR. Im mostly a solo player so I go 6-4 or 7-3 and start out at like 1500 MMR because of my MMR history. Its not good to look at the very bad player or the very best to try to prove a point. There is a lot of luck invovled for quite a few people. This current model is the best they have come up with but that doesn’t mean they can’t make it better because they 100% can.

Shaogin.2679:

I’m really curious about all the logic flying around here. What conditions exactly must a player go through to prove that you will eventually end up in the division you belong? Apparently seeing a player start in bronze and climb to legend isn’t good enough. So what would it take to show you guys that it is possible, or are you guys dead set on denying ant evidence that doesn’t support your claims?

Because, as people have already stated, he’s a Legendary player who was already good and just smashed his way back to the top. He’s a major league athlete who started playing with high school level athletes and worked his way back to the big leagues. But that should be a no-brainer to everyone. Had Helseth not gotten back to Legendary, ELO hell would not have been proven, but Helseth’s real skill would’ve been exposed.

Now, an actual test of the fabled ELO hell would be taking a mediocre player, making him better and then seeing if he can climb all the way to the top. This journey would seem to be more difficult since no one wakes up one day and is suddenly really good at PvP. Even guys like Helseth has many games under his belt and thus many experiences that puts him in his deserved rank. If you don’t have the amount of games or experience in PvP, your journey to the top will be longer and harder than the one displayed by Helseth. So to answer your question, it would help if several average players who got better and then got to legendary would make posts similar to Helseth detailing their path from the bottom tiers to the top.

And to the posts about luck when it comes to MM. Think of each player being 1 die, total of 10 dice in each game. You have control over 1 die, that’s you. You can control yourself but not the other 9 dice. If the game rolls these10 dice for 100 games, and everytime you can control the outcome of one of those die, its not entirely luck based and more often than not you can influence those odds into your favor.

For example, if you load with 3 thieves on your team, if you politely ask someone switch before the game starts, more often than not 1 person usually will switch. Key here though is to ask POLITELY :P

scorekeeper.6524:

And to the posts about luck when it comes to MM. Think of each player being 1 die, total of 10 dice in each game. You have control over 1 die, that’s you. You can control yourself but not the other 9 dice. If the game rolls these10 dice for 100 games, and everytime you can control the outcome of one of those die, its not entirely luck based and more often than not you can influence those odds into your favor.

For example, if you load with 3 thieves on your team, if you politely ask someone switch before the game starts, more often than not 1 person usually will switch. Key here though is to ask POLITELY :P

yes, you can get 4 thieves, got it the first days of this league after placement when the mmr won/loss is about 50.
3 thieves on team, asked if someone can switch that 3 thieves is not a good comp even 2 is not good, result thieves say they are fine and the four one( duo whith one thief) switch to thief

Alright enough hyping this meta Mesmer build. Try it out for yourself. Even if you’ve never played mesmer lmao you can literally button mash with Helseth’s build and replicate what he has xD. Easiest +1 build in the game. Just make a character, buy sword shield and staff and click the build selector and choose the one at top. All ready to go, enjoy easy application of confusion and torment along with other condis. Never realized just how easy Moa is. Every game we all meet our counter. But with this its easy just stack condis and moa then do some emote to make them angry at their slow death. I even played my first game shirtless as mesmer. It’s kind of made for allowing shirtless, mindless play. Almost rewards it

I’d give him credit if his build literally wasn’t copy pasted within the game. You can verify all of this yourself lmao. Mesmer is the EASIEST class to play with. Now what other class can replicate the copy pasted mesmer build? I honestly wouldn’t know. I spend most of my time theory crafting legendary off-meta techniques, I guess, as a challenge.

Easiest classes are still druid and dh

nothelseth.4621:

BloodriverTim.2031:

This is a bad representation of the how the system works. If he played a good number of games in bronze, then tried to climb, it would show what most users complain about. His mmr was still volatile enough to have the system pull him out of bronze, but if he got a 50% win rate for say, 30 games in bronze and then tried to climb, he would have a much more difficult time of it.

I had 600 rating. 3-7 placements.

https://youtu.be/as7RtX0JC-4?t=10
Look at the amount of games played in the vid for instance where I was still in bronze. At this point my stats were 13-2 not counting placements. I climbed the entire path, winning around 15-20 rating per win with iirc only one more loss.

How many more games would you say I had to play for my winratio to go from the 90% it was at bronze to the 50% you suggest?

‘’repeat it playing ele’’
Why would I play a support in bronze?

‘’ele is best carry class, mesmer is 2nd’’

Warrior is easily the best carry class for lower ranks.

dh is best pug stomp class wut u talkin about

is the game so boring and the forum so dead, that you need to reroll dead topic?
wtf

Seyiwaji.4082:

is the game so boring and the forum so dead, that you need to reroll dead topic?
wtf

gutta reroll everything until i gain access to champion’s rest

Troll.7854:

dh is best pug stomp class wut u talkin about

Account name checks out.