Guild Wars 2

Well even though half this thread is just well known trolls, I’ll say what I think.
Mesmer is perfectly fine at the moment except CS and PU. The air fire nerf as well as the mirror blade makes it hard to 1 shot, its almost impossible, I’ve gotten mirror blade mind wracks ect into thieves and I’ve yet to 1 shot a thief honestly. Max I’ve taken is 90% HP and given the fact that thieves generally are really slippery, especially for mesmer and that you can’t 1 shot anything else at the moment, the damage is perfectly fine. Portal has always been here and no one complained about it for years, nothing has changed that would make people change their minds.
PU needs a bit of a nerf and CS ICD increased to 7 or 9 seconds. Most mesmers SUCK big time as is and the reason people are still doing bad vs them is because they don’t know how to play vs them, same way no one has even half a clue on how to fight ranger. It takes some time. I NEVER die to mesmers in soloq. Why? Because I know how the class works and how to counter it. When people will learn that they will see that its not as OP as they think. Before the crying was sort of justified because the mantra is indeed carrying really bad players and it was just too good (talking about stun mantra, not the mantra build, that one sucks) but I don’t see reason for crying aynmore. The ICD on CS is loooong now because the only daze we have is diversion, lockdown builds will still run the mantra but it won’t be as often as before because of the mantra cd fix so I think even CS is fine right now.

My favourite part was the part where someone claimed the Mesmer could 100-0 him with 3k armour and 18k health while he did nothing…

…my warrior has a quickness 100b waiting for you.

Edit: Just to point out how laughable that is as an argument, PP engy, Balthazar runes, IP and 2 skills (only 1 an attack) will kill an 18k health target with burning in 4s. They can also do it from stealth.

You can make as many traits baseline across all professions be the same and I highly doubt it would fix any sort of balance. The issue isn’t traits being made baseline, although I agree some (Mesmer) had far to many making the opportunity costs of build x y and z almost become xyz at once. The issue is some traits/skills/weapons just flat out suck and in most cases people are left with very few options that work outside of your opponent being a kitten.

Idk how many posts are made on fixing profession X, or whoever but there are some really well thought out suggestions that could at least tested out to see how it works with the players. Sitting on their hands till they go numb trying to figure out how long until they take action on balance issues hasn’t been working for the last 3 years, try something. ANYTHING!

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

engineer:
Forceful Explosives (Bombs and mines have a larger explosion radius.)
Rifled Barrels (Improves rifle, pistol, harpoon gun, and elixir gun range)
Coated Bullets (Pistol shots pierce)
+1 Grenade on grenade skills

so …
what do we get?
the number of traits that were made baseline for each profession:

4.0 engineer

I am sure most engineers would be happy if this would be the case, BUT:
Currently “Rifled Barrels” only affects rifle range. It used to also affect elixir gun, harpoon gun and pistol, but no more. In fact there is NO way currently to increase the range for the 3 mentioned weapons/kits. And the reduced range hurts my game play a lot as I was always speccing that trait before.
Coated bullets didn’t happen and isn’t available anymore.
Forceful explosions is probably bugged. It shows 240 radius in tooltip, but the actual radius for bombs is 180 range. Has been like that since Jun 23
Grenade kit got a big nerf: 1500 -> 900 range. Poison grenade used to make a poison field, but does that no longer. Grenades used to be good for hybrid damage and celestial, but are now more power oriented, due general changes to conditions, condition duration from explosives line is gone, incendiary powder moved to different trait line, vulnerability lasting shorter time etc. So big part of damage and range is gone.

Reality:
engineers got 0.5 traits made into baseline. Less than any other profession!

I agree that mesmers got too much in the Jun 23 patch, the biggest offenders being massive boost to PU, confounding suggestions from 50% chance of stun to 100% <— a GM trait made adept and buffed at same time (= insanity!)

more mesmer nerf inc.

Darksteel.8412:

Iavra.8510:

This is the PvP forum and WvW damage has always been much higher. You will likely never see Helseth being able to 100-0 a competent bunker guard.

Also, you don’t just stand there and let an engi/ranger/burnguard stack yourself with conditions, too, right?

If this is about pure damage, i’ll like to redirect you to the PvE community. Those would never take a mesmer for its raw damage.

realy? a full berserker stats warrior on ascended gear full, has slightly higher stats then in pvp, there is still this ferocity difference in wvw and pvp, but that is by no means a difference of a low burst into a full 18+k burst on 3k+ armor. it was in obsi sanctum with 0 buffs. mesmer is toxic

Ummm…

The value of WvW stat’s is much higher considering Ascended Gear + the infusions+food+stones or oil+guard stacks

WvW experience and numbers are considered largely irrelevant when balancing pvp.

Iavra.8510:

Oh noes, mesmer is actually viable the first time in 3 years, better get those nerfs rolling.

They were always viable, it just took more skill & team practice compared to now.

Terrorsquad.4802:

Iavra.8510:

Oh noes, mesmer is actually viable the first time in 3 years, better get those nerfs rolling.

They were always viable, it just took more skill & team practice compared to now.

That myth has been debunked like months ago.
Mesmer’s havent been meta for some time.

…thief mesmer combo were present before the core spec update…not sure where people get the not viable for 3 years thing from

Solori.6025:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Iavra.8510:

Oh noes, mesmer is actually viable the first time in 3 years, better get those nerfs rolling.

They were always viable, it just took more skill & team practice compared to now.

That myth has been debunked like months ago.
Mesmer’s havent been meta for some time.

Mesmers havent been meta because no1 outside helseth’s & frost’s teams actually put effort into playing with it (high risk = high reward)

Having 2 eles and/or shoutbow was more rewarding for much less effort.
Why go high reward = high risk if you can low risk = high reward?

Mesmer was always viable. It had a higher skill level to be viable + needed top partners to make it work, which is a difference.

Teams had to make a comp around mesmer/thief, which costs loads of time and effort.
As we know, lots of teams on EU and NA actually split after a while. Which is why it wasnt worth it going for a mesmer.

Not being in most teams comps doesnt mean its not viable.

Frost and Helseth actually debunked your theory.

lighter.2708:

…thief mesmer combo were present before the core spec update…not sure where people get the not viable for 3 years thing from

Unviable for the large majority of players and teams who played over that time because other options were always easier and more effective at the skill level the majority of people play at. I don’t understand why people are pretending that Mesmers were common and often taken before the update, they weren’t.

I know lots of people in this game have terribly over inflated opinions of themselves but its just not true that a lot of people could run something over a shoutbow or cele ele and be good to take on a team.

Mesmer got over buffed, they have been fixed quite a bit. CS and PU could use a little more fiddling but please don’t look at the current state of the game and just make up history.

Deniara Devious.3948:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

engineer:
Forceful Explosives (Bombs and mines have a larger explosion radius.)
Rifled Barrels (Improves rifle, pistol, harpoon gun, and elixir gun range)
Coated Bullets (Pistol shots pierce)
+1 Grenade on grenade skills

so …
what do we get?
the number of traits that were made baseline for each profession:

4.0 engineer

I am sure most engineers would be happy if this would be the case, BUT:
Currently “Rifled Barrels” only affects rifle range. It used to also affect elixir gun, harpoon gun and pistol, but no more. In fact there is NO way currently to increase the range for the 3 mentioned weapons/kits. And the reduced range hurts my game play a lot as I was always speccing that trait before.
Coated bullets didn’t happen and isn’t available anymore.
Forceful explosions is probably bugged. It shows 240 radius in tooltip, but the actual radius for bombs is 180 range. Has been like that since Jun 23
Grenade kit got a big nerf: 1500 -> 900 range. Poison grenade used to make a poison field, but does that no longer. Grenades used to be good for hybrid damage and celestial, but are now more power oriented, due general changes to conditions, condition duration from explosives line is gone, incendiary powder moved to different trait line, vulnerability lasting shorter time etc. So big part of damage and range is gone.

Reality:
engineers got 0.5 traits made into baseline. Less than any other profession!

I agree that mesmers got too much in the Jun 23 patch, the biggest offenders being massive boost to PU, confounding suggestions from 50% chance of stun to 100% <— a GM trait made adept and buffed at same time (= insanity!)

aye, thanks for letting me know, i’ll go edit the engineer ones now.

Terrorsquad.4802:

Solori.6025:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Iavra.8510:

Oh noes, mesmer is actually viable the first time in 3 years, better get those nerfs rolling.

They were always viable, it just took more skill & team practice compared to now.

That myth has been debunked like months ago.
Mesmer’s havent been meta for some time.

Mesmers havent been meta because no1 outside helseth’s & frost’s teams actually put effort into playing with it (high risk = high reward)

They haven’t been meta because the gain that you got from playing a mesmer was not as beneficial as the gain you got from playing something else.
Like thief.

Having 2 eles and/or shoutbow was more rewarding for much less effort.
Why go high reward = high risk if you can low risk = high reward?

Very true indeed. It’s why mesmer wasn’t meta for a long time.

Mesmer was always viable. It had a higher skill level to be viable + needed top partners to make it work, which is a difference.

There is a big difference when you need another player to make your class viable.

Teams had to make a comp around mesmer/thief, which costs loads of time and effort.
As we know, lots of teams on EU and NA actually split after a while. Which is why it wasnt worth it going for a mesmer.

No, it wasn’t worht going mesmer because the reward for the effort AND what it brought to the table was either not up to par OR completely overshadowed by other classes.

Frost and Helseth actually debunked your theory.

Fact: Helseth has said many times that “He was viable” full quote being “Mesmer’s aren’t viable, I am”.

Helseth is also the person that said that mesmer was more of a liability to his team, and that a thief would do the job of mesmer better.

He played a few games with a D/P thief on his stream and stated that if he were to learn D/P he would be more of a beneficial slot to his team.

So no, that theory of yours has been proven false, many times over.

Solori.6025:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Solori.6025:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Iavra.8510:

Oh noes, mesmer is actually viable the first time in 3 years, better get those nerfs rolling.

They were always viable, it just took more skill & team practice compared to now.

That myth has been debunked like months ago.
Mesmer’s havent been meta for some time.

Mesmers havent been meta because no1 outside helseth’s & frost’s teams actually put effort into playing with it (high risk = high reward)

They haven’t been meta because the gain that you got from playing a mesmer was not as beneficial as the gain you got from playing something else.
Like thief.

Having 2 eles and/or shoutbow was more rewarding for much less effort.
Why go high reward = high risk if you can low risk = high reward?

Very true indeed. It’s why mesmer wasn’t meta for a long time.

Mesmer was always viable. It had a higher skill level to be viable + needed top partners to make it work, which is a difference.

There is a big difference when you need another player to make your class viable.

Teams had to make a comp around mesmer/thief, which costs loads of time and effort.
As we know, lots of teams on EU and NA actually split after a while. Which is why it wasnt worth it going for a mesmer.

No, it wasn’t worht going mesmer because the reward for the effort AND what it brought to the table was either not up to par OR completely overshadowed by other classes.

Frost and Helseth actually debunked your theory.

Fact: Helseth has said many times that “He was viable” full quote being “Mesmer’s aren’t viable, I am”.

Helseth is also the person that said that mesmer was more of a liability to his team, and that a thief would do the job of mesmer better.

He played a few games with a D/P thief on his stream and stated that if he were to learn D/P he would be more of a beneficial slot to his team.

So no, that theory of yours has been proven false, many times over.

Quoted for biblical accuracy.

Terrorsquad.4802:

Solori.6025:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Iavra.8510:

Oh noes, mesmer is actually viable the first time in 3 years, better get those nerfs rolling.

They were always viable, it just took more skill & team practice compared to now.

That myth has been debunked like months ago.
Mesmer’s havent been meta for some time.

Mesmers havent been meta because no1 outside helseth’s & frost’s teams actually put effort into playing with it (high risk = high reward)

Having 2 eles and/or shoutbow was more rewarding for much less effort.
Why go high reward = high risk if you can low risk = high reward?

Mesmer was always viable. It had a higher skill level to be viable + needed top partners to make it work, which is a difference.

Teams had to make a comp around mesmer/thief, which costs loads of time and effort.
As we know, lots of teams on EU and NA actually split after a while. Which is why it wasnt worth it going for a mesmer.

Not being in most teams comps doesnt mean its not viable.

Frost and Helseth actually debunked your theory.

To add to this terror..
Here is a history of mesmer that everyone seems to forget.

Fay.2357:

Mesmers started dropping out of the meta at the same time warrior was buffed. Recall that this was when they nerfed mainhand sword into the ground, making effective play much harder. It came back a little with double ranged shatter builds, but by the time those got much use, the condition meta hit and dunked mesmer out of the meta hard.

After the condition meta started getting toned down was when s/d thief skyrocketed in popularity, and forced mesmers to remain out of the meta for this period. Shortly thereafter, the celestial meta hit, and mesmers have remained out of the meta for the remainder of it.

At all points, a couple people still played mesmer. This, however, is anything but evidence of mesmer’s meta status. Even the very best mesmers in the game spent record time in downstate, and were ultimately only on the teams because of portal, and because their personal skill allowed them to bludgeon a non-viable class into use.

Lastly, as my original point that I made was about, that was foolishly disputed, at every single point in the history of play, the meta focused towards builds that were low effort, low risk, and high reward.

Solori.6025:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Solori.6025:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Iavra.8510:

Oh noes, mesmer is actually viable the first time in 3 years, better get those nerfs rolling.

They were always viable, it just took more skill & team practice compared to now.

That myth has been debunked like months ago.
Mesmer’s havent been meta for some time.

Mesmers havent been meta because no1 outside helseth’s & frost’s teams actually put effort into playing with it (high risk = high reward)

Having 2 eles and/or shoutbow was more rewarding for much less effort.
Why go high reward = high risk if you can low risk = high reward?

Mesmer was always viable. It had a higher skill level to be viable + needed top partners to make it work, which is a difference.

Teams had to make a comp around mesmer/thief, which costs loads of time and effort.
As we know, lots of teams on EU and NA actually split after a while. Which is why it wasnt worth it going for a mesmer.

Not being in most teams comps doesnt mean its not viable.

Frost and Helseth actually debunked your theory.

To add to this terror..
Here is a history of mesmer that everyone seems to forget.

Fay.2357:

Mesmers started dropping out of the meta at the same time warrior was buffed. Recall that this was when they nerfed mainhand sword into the ground, making effective play much harder. It came back a little with double ranged shatter builds, but by the time those got much use, the condition meta hit and dunked mesmer out of the meta hard.

After the condition meta started getting toned down was when s/d thief skyrocketed in popularity, and forced mesmers to remain out of the meta for this period. Shortly thereafter, the celestial meta hit, and mesmers have remained out of the meta for the remainder of it.

At all points, a couple people still played mesmer. This, however, is anything but evidence of mesmer’s meta status. Even the very best mesmers in the game spent record time in downstate, and were ultimately only on the teams because of portal, and because their personal skill allowed them to bludgeon a non-viable class into use.

Lastly, as my original point that I made was about, that was foolishly disputed, at every single point in the history of play, the meta focused towards builds that were low effort, low risk, and high reward.

Again, being not in the meta comps doesnt mean it wasnt viable. It WAS always viable.
There’s a difference between optimal and viable

Power ranger was viable but not optimal

Saying mesmer sucked very hard as a burst class is simply wrong because it was back then one of the best duelists of all classes.

But as I said myself, the effort into going for optimal was a waste of time because ele and shout warrs were a better option. (low risk = high reward).

But pls, never say mesmer wasnt viable, it was just not optimal

“Not viable” means its not even good for average SoloQ plays, like Spirit Guardian.

Terrorsquad.4802:

Solori.6025:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Solori.6025:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Iavra.8510:

Oh noes, mesmer is actually viable the first time in 3 years, better get those nerfs rolling.

They were always viable, it just took more skill & team practice compared to now.

That myth has been debunked like months ago.
Mesmer’s havent been meta for some time.

Mesmers havent been meta because no1 outside helseth’s & frost’s teams actually put effort into playing with it (high risk = high reward)

Having 2 eles and/or shoutbow was more rewarding for much less effort.
Why go high reward = high risk if you can low risk = high reward?

Mesmer was always viable. It had a higher skill level to be viable + needed top partners to make it work, which is a difference.

Teams had to make a comp around mesmer/thief, which costs loads of time and effort.
As we know, lots of teams on EU and NA actually split after a while. Which is why it wasnt worth it going for a mesmer.

Not being in most teams comps doesnt mean its not viable.

Frost and Helseth actually debunked your theory.

To add to this terror..
Here is a history of mesmer that everyone seems to forget.

Fay.2357:

Mesmers started dropping out of the meta at the same time warrior was buffed. Recall that this was when they nerfed mainhand sword into the ground, making effective play much harder. It came back a little with double ranged shatter builds, but by the time those got much use, the condition meta hit and dunked mesmer out of the meta hard.

After the condition meta started getting toned down was when s/d thief skyrocketed in popularity, and forced mesmers to remain out of the meta for this period. Shortly thereafter, the celestial meta hit, and mesmers have remained out of the meta for the remainder of it.

At all points, a couple people still played mesmer. This, however, is anything but evidence of mesmer’s meta status. Even the very best mesmers in the game spent record time in downstate, and were ultimately only on the teams because of portal, and because their personal skill allowed them to bludgeon a non-viable class into use.

Lastly, as my original point that I made was about, that was foolishly disputed, at every single point in the history of play, the meta focused towards builds that were low effort, low risk, and high reward.

Again, being not in the meta comps doesnt mean it wasnt viable. It WAS always viable.
There’s a difference between optimal and viable

Power ranger was viable but not optimal

Saying mesmer sucked very hard as a burst class is simply wrong because it was back then one of the best duelists of all classes.

But as I said myself, the effort into going for optimal was a waste of time because ele and shout warrs were a better option. (low risk = high reward).

But pls, never say mesmer wasnt viable, it was just not optimal

“Not viable” means its not even good for average SoloQ plays, like Spirit Guardian.

In his defense and in consideration of your circumstantial definition as opposed to what others define as “viable” in the meta, he himself never actually stated that Mesmer isn’t viable. However, he did quote one of the top Mesmers in the game as stating such.

Coulter.2315:

lighter.2708:

…thief mesmer combo were present before the core spec update…not sure where people get the not viable for 3 years thing from

Unviable for the large majority of players and teams who played over that time

What…no….if you mean like all the low tier player who have no idea what they doing..sure..

Meta had shifted to stealth burst meta before the spec patch..
it’s either thief mes or thief guard and engi and guard can play similar role, eles and shoutbow are going down in 1 second with stealth openner. and portal is like tacticaly strong

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Solori.6025:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Solori.6025:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Iavra.8510:

Oh noes, mesmer is actually viable the first time in 3 years, better get those nerfs rolling.

They were always viable, it just took more skill & team practice compared to now.

That myth has been debunked like months ago.
Mesmer’s havent been meta for some time.

Mesmers havent been meta because no1 outside helseth’s & frost’s teams actually put effort into playing with it (high risk = high reward)

Having 2 eles and/or shoutbow was more rewarding for much less effort.
Why go high reward = high risk if you can low risk = high reward?

Mesmer was always viable. It had a higher skill level to be viable + needed top partners to make it work, which is a difference.

Teams had to make a comp around mesmer/thief, which costs loads of time and effort.
As we know, lots of teams on EU and NA actually split after a while. Which is why it wasnt worth it going for a mesmer.

Not being in most teams comps doesnt mean its not viable.

Frost and Helseth actually debunked your theory.

To add to this terror..
Here is a history of mesmer that everyone seems to forget.

Fay.2357:

Mesmers started dropping out of the meta at the same time warrior was buffed. Recall that this was when they nerfed mainhand sword into the ground, making effective play much harder. It came back a little with double ranged shatter builds, but by the time those got much use, the condition meta hit and dunked mesmer out of the meta hard.

After the condition meta started getting toned down was when s/d thief skyrocketed in popularity, and forced mesmers to remain out of the meta for this period. Shortly thereafter, the celestial meta hit, and mesmers have remained out of the meta for the remainder of it.

At all points, a couple people still played mesmer. This, however, is anything but evidence of mesmer’s meta status. Even the very best mesmers in the game spent record time in downstate, and were ultimately only on the teams because of portal, and because their personal skill allowed them to bludgeon a non-viable class into use.

Lastly, as my original point that I made was about, that was foolishly disputed, at every single point in the history of play, the meta focused towards builds that were low effort, low risk, and high reward.

Again, being not in the meta comps doesnt mean it wasnt viable. It WAS always viable.
There’s a difference between optimal and viable

Power ranger was viable but not optimal

Saying mesmer sucked very hard as a burst class is simply wrong because it was back then one of the best duelists of all classes.

But as I said myself, the effort into going for optimal was a waste of time because ele and shout warrs were a better option. (low risk = high reward).

But pls, never say mesmer wasnt viable, it was just not optimal

“Not viable” means its not even good for average SoloQ plays, like Spirit Guardian.

In his defense and in consideration of your circumstantial definition as opposed to what others define as “viable” in the meta, he himself never actually stated that Mesmer isn’t viable. However, he did quote one of the top Mesmers in the game as stating such.

Top players say alot of things about their class and are obvious (mostly) biased.
5G called Slick Shoes balanced and “felt” Cele Engi didnt need to be nerfed.
Phanta/Walley said Cele Ele were fine and didnt need any adjusting (read; nerf).

There are some other top players calling out stuff but most are biased and will protect their main class and/or attack another class opposing theirs.

Helseth might’ve said mesmer is not optimal but Misha and Frost sure as hell said it is..

The real reason why most ppl also didnt pick mesmer was because of TCG’s split.
Their dreamteam of EU fell apart and so did their dreamteamcomp everyone tried to accomplish.

People in a MMO are like sheep (read: most of the ppl) and will follow not only builds but also comps in from top tier.

TCG’s split instantly shook up the average to above average teams and they got rid of their mesmers aswel (before introducing shoutwarr nevertheless).

I’m certainly not debating the fact having a mesmer back then was rewarding.
It was only rewarding if u had a team build around and put effort into it, like TCG did for 2 years straight (Team Kurse prev).

Teams came together in few weeks cant possibly make the mesmer optimal in their team.

Solution after some weeks: Shoutwarr.

Terrorsquad.4802:

Top players say alot of things about their class and are obvious (mostly) biased.
5G called Slick Shoes balanced and “felt” Cele Engi didnt need to be nerfed.
Phanta/Walley said Cele Ele were fine and didnt need any adjusting (read; nerf).

There are some other top players calling out stuff but most are biased and will protect their main class and/or attack another class opposing theirs.

Helseth might’ve said mesmer is not optimal but Misha and Frost sure as hell said it is..

The real reason why most ppl also didnt pick mesmer was because of TCG’s split.
Their dreamteam of EU fell apart and so did their dreamteamcomp everyone tried to accomplish.

People in a MMO are like sheep (read: most of the ppl) and will follow not only builds but also comps in from top tier.

TCG’s split instantly shook up the average to above average teams and they got rid of their mesmers aswel (before introducing shoutwarr nevertheless).

I’m certainly not debating the fact having a mesmer back then was rewarding.
It was only rewarding if u had a team build around and put effort into it, like TCG did for 2 years straight (Team Kurse prev).

Teams came together in few weeks cant possibly make the mesmer optimal in their team.

Solution after some weeks: Shoutwarr.

That’s great and all, but this is just your opinion and conjecture versus that of other people. The problem is that said other people are actual top tournament players making their opinion more valuable than yours, not to mention the fact that choice picks in progression from meta to meta agrees with them over you.

You just don’t and seemingly can’t make a convincing argument that actually holds weight. Applying bias to top players with a blanket statement does the opposite of helping your case. Furthermore, applying your own spin on history (read: bias) in follow-up just further detracts from the credibility of your argument.

mesmers got nerfed already…………………………………………………………………………………………..

i’d probably hate and quit this game if class diversity is reduced further.

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Top players say alot of things about their class and are obvious (mostly) biased.
5G called Slick Shoes balanced and “felt” Cele Engi didnt need to be nerfed.
Phanta/Walley said Cele Ele were fine and didnt need any adjusting (read; nerf).

There are some other top players calling out stuff but most are biased and will protect their main class and/or attack another class opposing theirs.

Helseth might’ve said mesmer is not optimal but Misha and Frost sure as hell said it is..

The real reason why most ppl also didnt pick mesmer was because of TCG’s split.
Their dreamteam of EU fell apart and so did their dreamteamcomp everyone tried to accomplish.

People in a MMO are like sheep (read: most of the ppl) and will follow not only builds but also comps in from top tier.

TCG’s split instantly shook up the average to above average teams and they got rid of their mesmers aswel (before introducing shoutwarr nevertheless).

I’m certainly not debating the fact having a mesmer back then was rewarding.
It was only rewarding if u had a team build around and put effort into it, like TCG did for 2 years straight (Team Kurse prev).

Teams came together in few weeks cant possibly make the mesmer optimal in their team.

Solution after some weeks: Shoutwarr.

That’s great and all, but this is just your opinion and conjecture versus that of other people. The problem is that said other people are actual top tournament players making their opinion more valuable than yours, not to mention the fact that choice picks in progression from meta to meta agrees with them over you.

You just don’t and seemingly can’t make a convincing argument that actually holds weight. Applying bias to top players with a blanket statement does the opposite of helping your case. Furthermore, applying your own spin on history (read: bias) in follow-up just further detracts from the credibility of your argument.

Ok now I know enough, clearly you believe top players who believe their class is UP or fine while they’re OP.

I’m not biased, Im stating facts here, you can look those up.
I’ve been in PvP before TCG even excisted, please.

Saying mesmer wasnt in the meta is also your opinion, or may I remind you of 55hp, TCG, Kant, and other top teams atleast trying to run mesmer before shoutbow?

Oh I guess they dont count because they’re not helseth, I guess?

History spin? How long are u in pvp? Half a year? Ever carefully overviewed EU scene past 2.5 years since it became ‘esports’?

Atleast watch some old ESL vids and then we’ll talk.

If a class was truly not viable for the meta, top players wouldnt play it obviously.
If they can make it work, others can do too with same effort.

There’s no denying in that.

Or are you stating that helseth admits he’s bad (read; liability to his team) and got carried through the years?

Anyway, we can keep discussing this on and on or agree to disagree.
I know what my view is throughout the years of GW2 pvp and you have yours.

like only thing worth mentioning what mesmers got baseline is illusionary persona the extra bounce was removed from gs nb 2 and you can take all other baseline also we don’t care we cant add extra bounce from trait to gs and it was removed as baseline from gs so we are weaker now than we were pre patch

Terrorsquad.4802:

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Top players say alot of things about their class and are obvious (mostly) biased.
5G called Slick Shoes balanced and “felt” Cele Engi didnt need to be nerfed.
Phanta/Walley said Cele Ele were fine and didnt need any adjusting (read; nerf).

There are some other top players calling out stuff but most are biased and will protect their main class and/or attack another class opposing theirs.

Helseth might’ve said mesmer is not optimal but Misha and Frost sure as hell said it is..

The real reason why most ppl also didnt pick mesmer was because of TCG’s split.
Their dreamteam of EU fell apart and so did their dreamteamcomp everyone tried to accomplish.

People in a MMO are like sheep (read: most of the ppl) and will follow not only builds but also comps in from top tier.

TCG’s split instantly shook up the average to above average teams and they got rid of their mesmers aswel (before introducing shoutwarr nevertheless).

I’m certainly not debating the fact having a mesmer back then was rewarding.
It was only rewarding if u had a team build around and put effort into it, like TCG did for 2 years straight (Team Kurse prev).

Teams came together in few weeks cant possibly make the mesmer optimal in their team.

Solution after some weeks: Shoutwarr.

That’s great and all, but this is just your opinion and conjecture versus that of other people. The problem is that said other people are actual top tournament players making their opinion more valuable than yours, not to mention the fact that choice picks in progression from meta to meta agrees with them over you.

You just don’t and seemingly can’t make a convincing argument that actually holds weight. Applying bias to top players with a blanket statement does the opposite of helping your case. Furthermore, applying your own spin on history (read: bias) in follow-up just further detracts from the credibility of your argument.

Ok now I know enough, clearly you believe top players who believe their class is UP or fine while they’re OP.

I’m not biased, Im stating facts here, you can look those up.
I’ve been in PvP before TCG even excisted, please.

Saying mesmer wasnt in the meta is also your opinion, or may I remind you of 55hp, TCG, Kant, and other top teams atleast trying to run mesmer before shoutbow?

Oh I guess they dont count because they’re not helseth, I guess?

History spin? How long are u in pvp? Half a year? Ever carefully overviewed EU scene past 2.5 years since it became ‘esports’?

Atleast watch some old ESL vids and then we’ll talk.

If a class was truly not viable for the meta, top players wouldnt play it obviously.
If they can make it work, others can do too with same effort.

There’s no denying in that.

Or are you stating that helseth admits he’s bad (read; liability to his team) and got carried through the years?

Anyway, we can keep discussing this on and on or agree to disagree.
I know what my view is throughout the years of GW2 pvp and you have yours.

So your entire argument is one big appeal to authority fallacy? Disregarded.

Allow me to remind us all, what this thread is about:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

giving non mesmers professions some removed traits as baseline would not break the game.

you guys are overeating.

mesmer is balanced, the other professions are not.

it is that hard to accept this?

Phantom Master.9582:

snip

i don’t play ele so i dunno how to comment on them.

i dunno how to nerf ele either so i won’t comment on them.

yes, warriors need some love, that, i will start another topic for that.

and no, this topic is not about me wanting to nerf mesmers.
mesmers are fine now.

warrior needs some love.
(yes, this is my intention)

Posts regarding mesmers state now and before should, how ever tempting the subject might be, perhaps be taken somewhere else, unless you feel the original subject is that important/valid?

I am eagerly awaiting what the title of the next warrior-promoting thread will be.

Poxxia.1547:

Allow me to remind us all, what this thread is about:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

giving non mesmers professions some removed traits as baseline would not break the game.

you guys are overeating.

mesmer is balanced, the other professions are not.

it is that hard to accept this?

Phantom Master.9582:

snip

i don’t play ele so i dunno how to comment on them.

i dunno how to nerf ele either so i won’t comment on them.

yes, warriors need some love, that, i will start another topic for that.

and no, this topic is not about me wanting to nerf mesmers.
mesmers are fine now.

warrior needs some love.
(yes, this is my intention)

Posts regarding mesmers state now and before should, how ever tempting the subject might be, perhaps be taken somewhere else, unless you feel the original subject is that important/valid?

I am eagerly awaiting what the title of the next warrior-promoting thread will be.

Poxxia,
i already made that warrior topic, however, it did not get much forum love.
could ya head over there and help out a bit?

i only asked for some useless removed warrior traits to be made baseline.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

i only asked for some useless removed warrior traits to be made baseline.

A lot of people (myself included) can agree with this; the problem is how you angled it beginning with an attack on the Mesmer instead of simply using the Mesmer as an contrasting example as to why you believe Warrior should get said traits as baseline.

You can argue semantics all you want. Fact is mes was in a poor spot in mid to high tier regardless of context. Even supposed being a good dueling class was naturally countered by builds optimal for team play.

The traits added were not a big deal, everyone looks at it as “old traits being baseline” when in fact they are strait buffs to underwhelming skills majority of which are not even related to ANY meta.

The only one worth arguing about for sPvP is Illusionary persona. But frankly it was stated many times before release that mesmer was rough around the edges and needed fixing and tweaking, and that is after the bugs that still exist and plague the profession 3 years later. As such the default class mechanic was super clunky until you max the illusion tree. The buff in itself however would be like if Necro’s old DS pre rework was a trait and made baseline.

At the end of the day counting baseline traits stemming from the patch is stupid. Mesmer got these changes because they should have been this way since release. If we had a proper PTR or if there was more time leading up to release its likely these traits would have been scrapped and made baseline in development after compairing the classes, and the base usefullness of each utility.

Daishi.6027:

You can argue semantics all you want. Fact is mes was in a poor spot in mid to high tier regardless of context. Even supposed being a good dueling class was naturally countered by builds optimal for team play.

The traits added were not a big deal, everyone looks at it as “old traits being baseline” when in fact they are strait buffs to underwhelming skills majority of which are not even related to ANY meta.

The only one worth arguing about for sPvP is Illusionary persona. But frankly it was stated many times before release that mesmer was rough around the edges and needed fixing and tweaking, and that is after the bugs that still exist and plague the profession 3 years later. As such the default class mechanic was super clunky until you max the illusion tree. The buff in itself however would be like if Necro’s old DS pre rework was a trait and made baseline.

At the end of the day counting baseline traits stemming from the patch is stupid. Mesmer got these changes because they should have been this way since release. If we had a proper PTR or if there was more time leading up to release its likely these traits would have been scrapped and made baseline in development after compairing the classes, and the base usefullness of each utility.

what about other classes? yes counting is dumb but those baseline traits are actually good and i am sure other classes wish they would have even half of that

Mesmer got more traits made into baseline than any other class. Most of those traits were not needed to be baseline and the result is a broken class after patch.

Some players use the false claim that traits like ilusionary persona were needed to be made baseline for class sinergy. If anet followed the same logic for other classes:

Ele should get elemental attunement and evasive arcana as baseline
War should get cleansing Ire, dogged march and fast hands as baseline
Guardian should get indomitable courage, absolute resolution and inspired virtue.
Rangers should get lead the wind
Thieves should get thrill of the crime and sleight of hand
etc..

Cynz.9437:

what about other classes? yes counting is dumb but those baseline traits are actually good and i am sure other classes wish they would have even half of that

Of what? Again thinking of it to much as “these used to be traits”. It’s not about that. These traits were removed from the game and the skills were buffed to be viable because you shouldn’t have had to trait for it.

Reduced glamour recharge rate – other than portal which was over nerfed due to a WvW renderin issue every other skill in this category is rarely taken and is usually underwhelming. The c/d reduction doesn’t even make them worth taking but if you want a c/d reduction on “insert bad skill that you’d never take anyways” then go for it.

Phantasmal damage boost – phantasms had to be buffed to match the damage change post patch. This is like any other pet change in game that had ever occurred. Revert this and please revert every pet or summon buff.

Manipulation range – Blink being 1200 range like every other non damaging blink in game? And the fact things like AT being 900 range is just bad design on an already meh skill.

Illusionary Persona: Shattering illusions creates the shatter effect on you as well. – should have never been a trait to begin with… It’s like a thief needing to trait for an item to be stolen when stealing.

Illusionary Elasticity: Bouncing attacks have one additional bounce. – staff should have always bounced that many times, GS bounce was something to trait for and was removed.

Protective Mantras: Gain extra armor when you cast a mantra – as if anyone cares.

4 are worth while 2 of which makes them in line with the rest of the game. One changes the class mechanic, and other is strait buff that keeps the damage in line with other builds. I don’t see what there is here that others could possibly need? Other than maybe just a 15% dmg buff on indirect damage. Oh wait Condis lol.

Nothing here is that different from other professions. We just don’t need to trait for our class mechanic to be useful anymore.

Mesmer’s current meta placement is only due to changes to some spec options players are not used to fighting around. This is separate from what was made baseline and if people are coming here thinking the baseline vales are what makes mes strong now are just ignorant and lacking game sense. (Not @ Cynz)

But if people want to make it a numbers game “mes gets 3 worth while traits base line /thread”

Deimos.. Why did you have to start this flame train up again?

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Top players say alot of things about their class and are obvious (mostly) biased.
5G called Slick Shoes balanced and “felt” Cele Engi didnt need to be nerfed.
Phanta/Walley said Cele Ele were fine and didnt need any adjusting (read; nerf).

There are some other top players calling out stuff but most are biased and will protect their main class and/or attack another class opposing theirs.

Helseth might’ve said mesmer is not optimal but Misha and Frost sure as hell said it is..

The real reason why most ppl also didnt pick mesmer was because of TCG’s split.
Their dreamteam of EU fell apart and so did their dreamteamcomp everyone tried to accomplish.

People in a MMO are like sheep (read: most of the ppl) and will follow not only builds but also comps in from top tier.

TCG’s split instantly shook up the average to above average teams and they got rid of their mesmers aswel (before introducing shoutwarr nevertheless).

I’m certainly not debating the fact having a mesmer back then was rewarding.
It was only rewarding if u had a team build around and put effort into it, like TCG did for 2 years straight (Team Kurse prev).

Teams came together in few weeks cant possibly make the mesmer optimal in their team.

Solution after some weeks: Shoutwarr.

That’s great and all, but this is just your opinion and conjecture versus that of other people. The problem is that said other people are actual top tournament players making their opinion more valuable than yours, not to mention the fact that choice picks in progression from meta to meta agrees with them over you.

You just don’t and seemingly can’t make a convincing argument that actually holds weight. Applying bias to top players with a blanket statement does the opposite of helping your case. Furthermore, applying your own spin on history (read: bias) in follow-up just further detracts from the credibility of your argument.

Ok now I know enough, clearly you believe top players who believe their class is UP or fine while they’re OP.

I’m not biased, Im stating facts here, you can look those up.
I’ve been in PvP before TCG even excisted, please.

Saying mesmer wasnt in the meta is also your opinion, or may I remind you of 55hp, TCG, Kant, and other top teams atleast trying to run mesmer before shoutbow?

Oh I guess they dont count because they’re not helseth, I guess?

History spin? How long are u in pvp? Half a year? Ever carefully overviewed EU scene past 2.5 years since it became ‘esports’?

Atleast watch some old ESL vids and then we’ll talk.

If a class was truly not viable for the meta, top players wouldnt play it obviously.
If they can make it work, others can do too with same effort.

There’s no denying in that.

Or are you stating that helseth admits he’s bad (read; liability to his team) and got carried through the years?

Anyway, we can keep discussing this on and on or agree to disagree.
I know what my view is throughout the years of GW2 pvp and you have yours.

So your entire argument is one big appeal to authority fallacy? Disregarded.

Had to look up what that even means, since I’m not English/American.

Anyway, following Google, you’re saying Im trying to convince ppl what I say is true because someone else states same facts?

Isnt this how the discussion started; how one guy said “this guy said.. (quote from Helseth saying Mesmer sux basically)”?

This discussion started because 2-3 ppl are trying to convince me mesmers werent in meta because Helseth said it was bad.. Irony?

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Deimos.. Why did you have to start this flame train up again?

because it is the fact.

the fact that mesmer had way more traits made baseline than other professions.

other professions needs to have more removed traits made baseline in order to be fair.

fact is fact.

Terrorsquad.4802:

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Top players say alot of things about their class and are obvious (mostly) biased.
5G called Slick Shoes balanced and “felt” Cele Engi didnt need to be nerfed.
Phanta/Walley said Cele Ele were fine and didnt need any adjusting (read; nerf).

There are some other top players calling out stuff but most are biased and will protect their main class and/or attack another class opposing theirs.

Helseth might’ve said mesmer is not optimal but Misha and Frost sure as hell said it is..

The real reason why most ppl also didnt pick mesmer was because of TCG’s split.
Their dreamteam of EU fell apart and so did their dreamteamcomp everyone tried to accomplish.

People in a MMO are like sheep (read: most of the ppl) and will follow not only builds but also comps in from top tier.

TCG’s split instantly shook up the average to above average teams and they got rid of their mesmers aswel (before introducing shoutwarr nevertheless).

I’m certainly not debating the fact having a mesmer back then was rewarding.
It was only rewarding if u had a team build around and put effort into it, like TCG did for 2 years straight (Team Kurse prev).

Teams came together in few weeks cant possibly make the mesmer optimal in their team.

Solution after some weeks: Shoutwarr.

That’s great and all, but this is just your opinion and conjecture versus that of other people. The problem is that said other people are actual top tournament players making their opinion more valuable than yours, not to mention the fact that choice picks in progression from meta to meta agrees with them over you.

You just don’t and seemingly can’t make a convincing argument that actually holds weight. Applying bias to top players with a blanket statement does the opposite of helping your case. Furthermore, applying your own spin on history (read: bias) in follow-up just further detracts from the credibility of your argument.

Ok now I know enough, clearly you believe top players who believe their class is UP or fine while they’re OP.

I’m not biased, Im stating facts here, you can look those up.
I’ve been in PvP before TCG even excisted, please.

Saying mesmer wasnt in the meta is also your opinion, or may I remind you of 55hp, TCG, Kant, and other top teams atleast trying to run mesmer before shoutbow?

Oh I guess they dont count because they’re not helseth, I guess?

History spin? How long are u in pvp? Half a year? Ever carefully overviewed EU scene past 2.5 years since it became ‘esports’?

Atleast watch some old ESL vids and then we’ll talk.

If a class was truly not viable for the meta, top players wouldnt play it obviously.
If they can make it work, others can do too with same effort.

There’s no denying in that.

Or are you stating that helseth admits he’s bad (read; liability to his team) and got carried through the years?

Anyway, we can keep discussing this on and on or agree to disagree.
I know what my view is throughout the years of GW2 pvp and you have yours.

So your entire argument is one big appeal to authority fallacy? Disregarded.

Had to look up what that even means, since I’m not English/American.

Anyway, following Google, you’re saying Im trying to convince ppl what I say is true because someone else states same facts?

Isnt this how the discussion started; how one guy said “this guy said.. (quote from Helseth saying Mesmer sux basically)”?

This discussion started because 2-3 ppl are trying to convince me mesmers werent in meta because Helseth said it was bad.. Irony?

You still don’t seem to understand what it means based on your reply, and I’m not a native English speaker nor American either. Feel free to try again.

Jurica.1742:

Well even though half this thread is just well known trolls, I’ll say what I think.
Mesmer is perfectly fine at the moment except CS and PU. The air fire nerf as well as the mirror blade makes it hard to 1 shot, its almost impossible, I’ve gotten mirror blade mind wracks ect into thieves and I’ve yet to 1 shot a thief honestly. Max I’ve taken is 90% HP and given the fact that thieves generally are really slippery, especially for mesmer and that you can’t 1 shot anything else at the moment, the damage is perfectly fine. Portal has always been here and no one complained about it for years, nothing has changed that would make people change their minds.
PU needs a bit of a nerf and CS ICD increased to 7 or 9 seconds. Most mesmers SUCK big time as is and the reason people are still doing bad vs them is because they don’t know how to play vs them, same way no one has even half a clue on how to fight ranger. It takes some time. I NEVER die to mesmers in soloq. Why? Because I know how the class works and how to counter it. When people will learn that they will see that its not as OP as they think. Before the crying was sort of justified because the mantra is indeed carrying really bad players and it was just too good (talking about stun mantra, not the mantra build, that one sucks) but I don’t see reason for crying aynmore. The ICD on CS is loooong now because the only daze we have is diversion, lockdown builds will still run the mantra but it won’t be as often as before because of the mantra cd fix so I think even CS is fine right now.

I agree.

But honestly i think portal was fine with 90s cd.

Daishi.6027:

Cynz.9437:

what about other classes? yes counting is dumb but those baseline traits are actually good and i am sure other classes wish they would have even half of that

Of what? Again thinking of it to much as “these used to be traits”. It’s not about that. These traits were removed from the game and the skills were buffed to be viable because you shouldn’t have had to trait for it.

Reduced glamour recharge rate – other than portal which was over nerfed due to a WvW renderin issue every other skill in this category is rarely taken and is usually underwhelming. The c/d reduction doesn’t even make them worth taking but if you want a c/d reduction on “insert bad skill that you’d never take anyways” then go for it.

Phantasmal damage boost – phantasms had to be buffed to match the damage change post patch. This is like any other pet change in game that had ever occurred. Revert this and please revert every pet or summon buff.

Manipulation range – Blink being 1200 range like every other non damaging blink in game? And the fact things like AT being 900 range is just bad design on an already meh skill.

Illusionary Persona: Shattering illusions creates the shatter effect on you as well. – should have never been a trait to begin with… It’s like a thief needing to trait for an item to be stolen when stealing.

Illusionary Elasticity: Bouncing attacks have one additional bounce. – staff should have always bounced that many times, GS bounce was something to trait for and was removed.

Protective Mantras: Gain extra armor when you cast a mantra – as if anyone cares.

4 are worth while 2 of which makes them in line with the rest of the game. One changes the class mechanic, and other is strait buff that keeps the damage in line with other builds. I don’t see what there is here that others could possibly need? Other than maybe just a 15% dmg buff on indirect damage. Oh wait Condis lol.

Nothing here is that different from other professions. We just don’t need to trait for our class mechanic to be useful anymore.

Mesmer’s current meta placement is only due to changes to some spec options players are not used to fighting around. This is separate from what was made baseline and if people are coming here thinking the baseline vales are what makes mes strong now are just ignorant and lacking game sense. (Not @ Cynz)

But if people want to make it a numbers game “mes gets 3 worth while traits base line /thread”

honestly, same could be said about other classes though

take thief as an example: trickery been MUST have for how many years? because otherwise steal is very weak, it is just short distance port on relative long cd with if you are lucky somehow decent stolen spell…. you actually need entire traitline to make it useful

i am not saying that baseline traits from mes is what made them so strong but i think they are one of the reasons combined with other changes

for example 15% phant dmg shouldn’t be baseline

so, either threat other classes like mes and give them “necessary” traits baseline (which would lead to more power creep and would be wrong) or revert some changes to mes to tone them down (and ofc other classes, cough eles)

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Top players say alot of things about their class and are obvious (mostly) biased.
5G called Slick Shoes balanced and “felt” Cele Engi didnt need to be nerfed.
Phanta/Walley said Cele Ele were fine and didnt need any adjusting (read; nerf).

There are some other top players calling out stuff but most are biased and will protect their main class and/or attack another class opposing theirs.

Helseth might’ve said mesmer is not optimal but Misha and Frost sure as hell said it is..

The real reason why most ppl also didnt pick mesmer was because of TCG’s split.
Their dreamteam of EU fell apart and so did their dreamteamcomp everyone tried to accomplish.

People in a MMO are like sheep (read: most of the ppl) and will follow not only builds but also comps in from top tier.

TCG’s split instantly shook up the average to above average teams and they got rid of their mesmers aswel (before introducing shoutwarr nevertheless).

I’m certainly not debating the fact having a mesmer back then was rewarding.
It was only rewarding if u had a team build around and put effort into it, like TCG did for 2 years straight (Team Kurse prev).

Teams came together in few weeks cant possibly make the mesmer optimal in their team.

Solution after some weeks: Shoutwarr.

That’s great and all, but this is just your opinion and conjecture versus that of other people. The problem is that said other people are actual top tournament players making their opinion more valuable than yours, not to mention the fact that choice picks in progression from meta to meta agrees with them over you.

You just don’t and seemingly can’t make a convincing argument that actually holds weight. Applying bias to top players with a blanket statement does the opposite of helping your case. Furthermore, applying your own spin on history (read: bias) in follow-up just further detracts from the credibility of your argument.

Ok now I know enough, clearly you believe top players who believe their class is UP or fine while they’re OP.

I’m not biased, Im stating facts here, you can look those up.
I’ve been in PvP before TCG even excisted, please.

Saying mesmer wasnt in the meta is also your opinion, or may I remind you of 55hp, TCG, Kant, and other top teams atleast trying to run mesmer before shoutbow?

Oh I guess they dont count because they’re not helseth, I guess?

History spin? How long are u in pvp? Half a year? Ever carefully overviewed EU scene past 2.5 years since it became ‘esports’?

Atleast watch some old ESL vids and then we’ll talk.

If a class was truly not viable for the meta, top players wouldnt play it obviously.
If they can make it work, others can do too with same effort.

There’s no denying in that.

Or are you stating that helseth admits he’s bad (read; liability to his team) and got carried through the years?

Anyway, we can keep discussing this on and on or agree to disagree.
I know what my view is throughout the years of GW2 pvp and you have yours.

So your entire argument is one big appeal to authority fallacy? Disregarded.

Had to look up what that even means, since I’m not English/American.

Anyway, following Google, you’re saying Im trying to convince ppl what I say is true because someone else states same facts?

Isnt this how the discussion started; how one guy said “this guy said.. (quote from Helseth saying Mesmer sux basically)”?

This discussion started because 2-3 ppl are trying to convince me mesmers werent in meta because Helseth said it was bad.. Irony?

You still don’t seem to understand what it means based on your reply, and I’m not a native English speaker nor American either. Feel free to try again.

Ok, google must be wrong then.

Cheerio

Terrorsquad.4802:

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Top players say alot of things about their class and are obvious (mostly) biased.
5G called Slick Shoes balanced and “felt” Cele Engi didnt need to be nerfed.
Phanta/Walley said Cele Ele were fine and didnt need any adjusting (read; nerf).

There are some other top players calling out stuff but most are biased and will protect their main class and/or attack another class opposing theirs.

Helseth might’ve said mesmer is not optimal but Misha and Frost sure as hell said it is..

The real reason why most ppl also didnt pick mesmer was because of TCG’s split.
Their dreamteam of EU fell apart and so did their dreamteamcomp everyone tried to accomplish.

People in a MMO are like sheep (read: most of the ppl) and will follow not only builds but also comps in from top tier.

TCG’s split instantly shook up the average to above average teams and they got rid of their mesmers aswel (before introducing shoutwarr nevertheless).

I’m certainly not debating the fact having a mesmer back then was rewarding.
It was only rewarding if u had a team build around and put effort into it, like TCG did for 2 years straight (Team Kurse prev).

Teams came together in few weeks cant possibly make the mesmer optimal in their team.

Solution after some weeks: Shoutwarr.

That’s great and all, but this is just your opinion and conjecture versus that of other people. The problem is that said other people are actual top tournament players making their opinion more valuable than yours, not to mention the fact that choice picks in progression from meta to meta agrees with them over you.

You just don’t and seemingly can’t make a convincing argument that actually holds weight. Applying bias to top players with a blanket statement does the opposite of helping your case. Furthermore, applying your own spin on history (read: bias) in follow-up just further detracts from the credibility of your argument.

Ok now I know enough, clearly you believe top players who believe their class is UP or fine while they’re OP.

I’m not biased, Im stating facts here, you can look those up.
I’ve been in PvP before TCG even excisted, please.

Saying mesmer wasnt in the meta is also your opinion, or may I remind you of 55hp, TCG, Kant, and other top teams atleast trying to run mesmer before shoutbow?

Oh I guess they dont count because they’re not helseth, I guess?

History spin? How long are u in pvp? Half a year? Ever carefully overviewed EU scene past 2.5 years since it became ‘esports’?

Atleast watch some old ESL vids and then we’ll talk.

If a class was truly not viable for the meta, top players wouldnt play it obviously.
If they can make it work, others can do too with same effort.

There’s no denying in that.

Or are you stating that helseth admits he’s bad (read; liability to his team) and got carried through the years?

Anyway, we can keep discussing this on and on or agree to disagree.
I know what my view is throughout the years of GW2 pvp and you have yours.

So your entire argument is one big appeal to authority fallacy? Disregarded.

Had to look up what that even means, since I’m not English/American.

Anyway, following Google, you’re saying Im trying to convince ppl what I say is true because someone else states same facts?

Isnt this how the discussion started; how one guy said “this guy said.. (quote from Helseth saying Mesmer sux basically)”?

This discussion started because 2-3 ppl are trying to convince me mesmers werent in meta because Helseth said it was bad.. Irony?

You still don’t seem to understand what it means based on your reply, and I’m not a native English speaker nor American either. Feel free to try again.

Ok, google must be wrong then.

Cheerio

I just googled “appeal to authority” and this is exactly what it told me:

An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form: Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S. Person A makes claim C about subject S. Therefore, C is true.

I don’t see how someone can completely misinterpret that as you did…

Cheers!

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Top players say alot of things about their class and are obvious (mostly) biased.
5G called Slick Shoes balanced and “felt” Cele Engi didnt need to be nerfed.
Phanta/Walley said Cele Ele were fine and didnt need any adjusting (read; nerf).

There are some other top players calling out stuff but most are biased and will protect their main class and/or attack another class opposing theirs.

Helseth might’ve said mesmer is not optimal but Misha and Frost sure as hell said it is..

The real reason why most ppl also didnt pick mesmer was because of TCG’s split.
Their dreamteam of EU fell apart and so did their dreamteamcomp everyone tried to accomplish.

People in a MMO are like sheep (read: most of the ppl) and will follow not only builds but also comps in from top tier.

TCG’s split instantly shook up the average to above average teams and they got rid of their mesmers aswel (before introducing shoutwarr nevertheless).

I’m certainly not debating the fact having a mesmer back then was rewarding.
It was only rewarding if u had a team build around and put effort into it, like TCG did for 2 years straight (Team Kurse prev).

Teams came together in few weeks cant possibly make the mesmer optimal in their team.

Solution after some weeks: Shoutwarr.

That’s great and all, but this is just your opinion and conjecture versus that of other people. The problem is that said other people are actual top tournament players making their opinion more valuable than yours, not to mention the fact that choice picks in progression from meta to meta agrees with them over you.

You just don’t and seemingly can’t make a convincing argument that actually holds weight. Applying bias to top players with a blanket statement does the opposite of helping your case. Furthermore, applying your own spin on history (read: bias) in follow-up just further detracts from the credibility of your argument.

Ok now I know enough, clearly you believe top players who believe their class is UP or fine while they’re OP.

I’m not biased, Im stating facts here, you can look those up.
I’ve been in PvP before TCG even excisted, please.

Saying mesmer wasnt in the meta is also your opinion, or may I remind you of 55hp, TCG, Kant, and other top teams atleast trying to run mesmer before shoutbow?

Oh I guess they dont count because they’re not helseth, I guess?

History spin? How long are u in pvp? Half a year? Ever carefully overviewed EU scene past 2.5 years since it became ‘esports’?

Atleast watch some old ESL vids and then we’ll talk.

If a class was truly not viable for the meta, top players wouldnt play it obviously.
If they can make it work, others can do too with same effort.

There’s no denying in that.

Or are you stating that helseth admits he’s bad (read; liability to his team) and got carried through the years?

Anyway, we can keep discussing this on and on or agree to disagree.
I know what my view is throughout the years of GW2 pvp and you have yours.

So your entire argument is one big appeal to authority fallacy? Disregarded.

Had to look up what that even means, since I’m not English/American.

Anyway, following Google, you’re saying Im trying to convince ppl what I say is true because someone else states same facts?

Isnt this how the discussion started; how one guy said “this guy said.. (quote from Helseth saying Mesmer sux basically)”?

This discussion started because 2-3 ppl are trying to convince me mesmers werent in meta because Helseth said it was bad.. Irony?

You still don’t seem to understand what it means based on your reply, and I’m not a native English speaker nor American either. Feel free to try again.

Ok, google must be wrong then.

Cheerio

I just googled “appeal to authority” and this is exactly what it told me:

An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form: Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S. Person A makes claim C about subject S. Therefore, C is true.

I don’t see how someone can completely misinterpret that as you did…

Cheers!

And thats exactly what I thought it meant.. Not sure what you say is wrong.

Edit:

Word of advice: Im quite sure Im not the only one who can misinterpret stuff.
So a bit respect towards ppl with less English knowledge might be in order.

Some countries already speak 2-3 languages as mine, where we need to speak/write it fluently. So excuse me if I come over as the only one who can misinterpret expensive words, from a non Native English/American nevertheless.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

engineer:
Forceful Explosives (Bombs and mines have a larger explosion radius.)
Rifled Barrels (Improves rifle, pistol, harpoon gun, and elixir gun range)
Coated Bullets (Pistol shots pierce)
+1 Grenade on grenade skills

so …
what do we get?
the number of traits that were made baseline for each profession:

4.0 engineer

I am sure most engineers would be happy if this would be the case, BUT:
Currently “Rifled Barrels” only affects rifle range. It used to also affect elixir gun, harpoon gun and pistol, but no more. In fact there is NO way currently to increase the range for the 3 mentioned weapons/kits. And the reduced range hurts my game play a lot as I was always speccing that trait before.
Coated bullets didn’t happen and isn’t available anymore.
Forceful explosions is probably bugged. It shows 240 radius in tooltip, but the actual radius for bombs is 180 range. Has been like that since Jun 23
Grenade kit got a big nerf: 1500 -> 900 range. Poison grenade used to make a poison field, but does that no longer. Grenades used to be good for hybrid damage and celestial, but are now more power oriented, due general changes to conditions, condition duration from explosives line is gone, incendiary powder moved to different trait line, vulnerability lasting shorter time etc. So big part of damage and range is gone.

Reality:
engineers got 0.5 traits made into baseline. Less than any other profession!

I agree that mesmers got too much in the Jun 23 patch, the biggest offenders being massive boost to PU, confounding suggestions from 50% chance of stun to 100% <— a GM trait made adept and buffed at same time (= insanity!)

aye, thanks for letting me know, i’ll go edit the engineer ones now.

To start such a thread, you really should’ve done more homework.

Terrorsquad.4802:

Velimere.7685:

I just googled “appeal to authority” and this is exactly what it told me:

An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form: Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S. Person A makes claim C about subject S. Therefore, C is true.

I don’t see how someone can completely misinterpret that as you did…

Cheers!

And thats exactly what I thought it meant.. Not sure what you say is wrong.

Edit:

Word of advice: Im quite sure Im not the only one who can misinterpret stuff.
So a bit respect towards ppl with less English knowledge might be in order.

Some countries already speak 2-3 languages as mine, where we need to speak/write it fluently. So excuse me if I come over as the only one who can misinterpret expensive words, from a non Native English/American nevertheless.

Regardless of what you meant, that isn’t what you said, and I’m not a mind-reader. The point is that your entire argument against me was one big appeal to authority fallacy which is why I disregarded it.

The point is that citing yourself as an authority is fallacious whereas citing an accomplished, elite, and recognizable figure concerning the subject matter holds actual credibility. In this particular instance, it’s your word versus the word of Helseth on the matter of the state of Mesmer in PvP.

I don’t know what country you’re from, but English is one of the most difficult languages for us Japanese people to learn, and most of us will never even master the pronunciation of it due to how certain muscles develop; it can quite literally be impossible. I don’t even know why you brought that up with me.

Word of advice: I didn’t misinterpret anything; you did.

As a syllogism, the argument has the following basic structure:

• A says P about subject matter S.
• A should be trusted about subject matter S.
• Therefore, P is correct.

The second premise is not accepted as valid, as it amounts to an unfounded assertion that leads to circular reasoning able to define person or group A into inerrancy on any subject matter.

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Velimere.7685:

I just googled “appeal to authority” and this is exactly what it told me:

An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form: Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S. Person A makes claim C about subject S. Therefore, C is true.

I don’t see how someone can completely misinterpret that as you did…

Cheers!

And thats exactly what I thought it meant.. Not sure what you say is wrong.

Edit:

Word of advice: Im quite sure Im not the only one who can misinterpret stuff.
So a bit respect towards ppl with less English knowledge might be in order.

Some countries already speak 2-3 languages as mine, where we need to speak/write it fluently. So excuse me if I come over as the only one who can misinterpret expensive words, from a non Native English/American nevertheless.

Regardless of what you meant, that isn’t what you said, and I’m not a mind-reader. The point is that your entire argument against me was one big appeal to authority fallacy which is why I disregarded it.

The point is that citing yourself as an authority is fallacious whereas citing an accomplished, elite, and recognizable figure concerning the subject matter holds actual credibility. In this particular instance, it’s your word versus the word of Helseth on the matter of the state of Mesmer in PvP.

I don’t know what country you’re from, but English is one of the most difficult languages for us Japanese people to learn, and most of us will never even master the pronunciation of it due to how certain muscles develop; it can quite literally be impossible. I don’t even know why you brought that up with me.

Word of advice: I didn’t misinterpret anything; you did.

As a syllogism, the argument has the following basic structure:

• A says P about subject matter S.
• A should be trusted about subject matter S.
• Therefore, P is correct.

The second premise is not accepted as valid, as it amounts to an unfounded assertion that leads to circular reasoning able to define person or group A into inerrancy on any subject matter.

Now I see, u didnt undertood what I meant:

• I said irony earlier because Helseth is subject A, he’s saying C must be 3 so therefore C is 3.

I never said ppl should listen to me instead of helseth.
What I did meant was that ppl need to think on their own and pick everything with a grain of salt, even what top players say.

Top players sometimes say stuff that aint right (for the pvp community in general)

Example: Top Engineers were saying Engi’s were fine and balanced and didnt need any nerfs (5G on stream).

However, at patch they did got slight nerfs here and there because they were simply OP for the PvP community and too easy to pick up and win.

As with other classes direct nerfs. They didnt got nerfed to defy top player’s idea of balance, but to compliment the PvP community as a whole.

• Second thing u missunderstood was that I did NOT say you misinterpret anything, but I did because of my flaw in English. Thats why I brought it up.

rchu.8945:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Deniara Devious.3948:

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

engineer:
Forceful Explosives (Bombs and mines have a larger explosion radius.)
Rifled Barrels (Improves rifle, pistol, harpoon gun, and elixir gun range)
Coated Bullets (Pistol shots pierce)
+1 Grenade on grenade skills

so …
what do we get?
the number of traits that were made baseline for each profession:

4.0 engineer

I am sure most engineers would be happy if this would be the case, BUT:
Currently “Rifled Barrels” only affects rifle range. It used to also affect elixir gun, harpoon gun and pistol, but no more. In fact there is NO way currently to increase the range for the 3 mentioned weapons/kits. And the reduced range hurts my game play a lot as I was always speccing that trait before.
Coated bullets didn’t happen and isn’t available anymore.
Forceful explosions is probably bugged. It shows 240 radius in tooltip, but the actual radius for bombs is 180 range. Has been like that since Jun 23
Grenade kit got a big nerf: 1500 -> 900 range. Poison grenade used to make a poison field, but does that no longer. Grenades used to be good for hybrid damage and celestial, but are now more power oriented, due general changes to conditions, condition duration from explosives line is gone, incendiary powder moved to different trait line, vulnerability lasting shorter time etc. So big part of damage and range is gone.

Reality:
engineers got 0.5 traits made into baseline. Less than any other profession!

I agree that mesmers got too much in the Jun 23 patch, the biggest offenders being massive boost to PU, confounding suggestions from 50% chance of stun to 100% <— a GM trait made adept and buffed at same time (= insanity!)

aye, thanks for letting me know, i’ll go edit the engineer ones now.

To start such a thread, you really should’ve done more homework.

doesn’t matter, mesmers still have most traits made baseline.

Terrorsquad.4802:

Now I see, u didnt undertood what I meant:

• I said irony earlier because Helseth is subject A, he’s saying C must be 3 so therefore C is 3.

What? Helseth isn’t participating in an argument here; you still don’t get it.

Terrorsquad.4802:

I never said ppl should listen to me instead of helseth.

No, but you clearly cited yourself as an authority in an attempt to make your argument sound more convincing when instead it had the opposite effect:

Terrorsquad.4802:

I’ve been in PvP before TCG even excisted, please.

You argued your opinion as factual, and instructed me to find your citation for you instead of citing your own sources; that’s not how a convincing argument works.

What’s more, you went on to imply that everyone is equal which is historically and statistically false: A single team or a single individual generally wins every major competition. This far more furthers the plausibility of the notion that some people are simply better than others rather than the notion that equal effort provides equal results. In the first place, how can you even determine that one individual or group’s effort over another’s? That’s simply subjective conjecture and altogether inconclusive.

The fact remains that your argument consisted of blanket statements, conjecture, and fallacies which is altogether attribute it as unconvincing (let alone single-handedly in each’s own right). If your argument was convincing, even if it wasn’t true, at least people would believe you. Why do you think I’m taking the other guy’s side in this? Because he actually made a convincing argument.

Terrorsquad.4802:

What I did meant was that ppl need to think on their own and pick everything with a grain of salt, even what top players say.

Top players sometimes say stuff that aint right (for the pvp community in general)

Example: Top Engineers were saying Engi’s were fine and balanced and didnt need any nerfs (5G on stream).

While you may have meant to caution people to consider the words of top players and that they sometimes say incorrect things, this is what you actually stated:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Top players say alot of things about their class and are obvious (mostly) biased.

That’s a fallacy of defective induction (read: faulty generalization) where you qualified a majority group based on its minority individuals. Again, I’m not a mind-reader, so I can only take you at your word and not anything you mean instead of what you actually say.

Terrorsquad.4802:

• Second thing u missunderstood was that I did NOT say you misinterpret anything, but I did because of my flaw in English. Thats why I brought it up.

There you go misunderstanding again. You didn’t say I misinterpreted anything? Well, I didn’t say you did. That’s another problem you keep having: You keep inferring from my words meaning you think is behind them instead of just taking them for what I am actually saying here. I was clarifying something, not asking you to read my mind and address something something else I meant but didn’t actually say.

Inferences and implications have no place in argumentation.

Anyway, sorry this response is late; I was participating in the beta.

Velimere.7685:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Now I see, u didnt undertood what I meant:

• I said irony earlier because Helseth is subject A, he’s saying C must be 3 so therefore C is 3.

What? Helseth isn’t participating in an argument here; you still don’t get it.

Terrorsquad.4802:

I never said ppl should listen to me instead of helseth.

No, but you clearly cited yourself as an authority in an attempt to make your argument sound more convincing when instead it had the opposite effect:

Terrorsquad.4802:

I’ve been in PvP before TCG even excisted, please.

You argued your opinion as factual, and instructed me to find your citation for you instead of citing your own sources; that’s not how a convincing argument works.

What’s more, you went on to imply that everyone is equal which is historically and statistically false: A single team or a single individual generally wins every major competition. This far more furthers the plausibility of the notion that some people are simply better than others rather than the notion that equal effort provides equal results. In the first place, how can you even determine that one individual or group’s effort over another’s? That’s simply subjective conjecture and altogether inconclusive.

The fact remains that your argument consisted, of blanket statements, conjecture, and fallacies which is altogether attribute it as unconvincing (let alone single-handedly in each’s own right). If your argument was convincing, even if it wasn’t true, at least people would believe you. Why do you think I’m taking the other guy’s side in this? Because he actually made a convincing argument.

Terrorsquad.4802:

What I did meant was that ppl need to think on their own and pick everything with a grain of salt, even what top players say.

Top players sometimes say stuff that aint right (for the pvp community in general)

Example: Top Engineers were saying Engi’s were fine and balanced and didnt need any nerfs (5G on stream).

While you may have meant to caution people to consider the words of top players and that they sometimes say incorrect things, this is what you actually stated:

Terrorsquad.4802:

Top players say alot of things about their class and are obvious (mostly) biased.

That’s a fallacy of defective induction (read: faulty generalization) where you qualified a majority group based on its minority individuals. Again, I’m not a mind-reader, so I can only take you at your word and not anything you mean instead of what you actually say.

Terrorsquad.4802:

• Second thing u missunderstood was that I did NOT say you misinterpret anything, but I did because of my flaw in English. Thats why I brought it up.

There you go misunderstanding again. You didn’t say I misinterpreted anything? Well, I didn’t say you did. That’s another problem you keep having: You keep inferring from my words meaning you think is behind them instead of just taking them for what I am actually saying here. I was clarifying something, not asking you to read my mind and address something something else I meant but didn’t actually say.

Inferences and implications have no place in argumentation.

Anyway, sorry this response is late; I was participating in the beta.

This is full of missunderstandings, not going to bother anymore to explain myself over and over ._.
Also reading your “expensive” sentences are exhausting me too much, I never saw anyone talking like you except for university professors..

I even understand native English/Americans far more easier.. This is like overkill English the way you’re talking (no offensive!!)

Terrorsquad.4802:

This is full of missunderstandings,

This is yet another blanket statement.

Terrorsquad.4802:

not going to bother anymore to explain myself over and over ._.

You’d be incorrect anyway as I’ve already detailed without using any of the fallacies you’ve chosen or unwittingly applied (out of respect for you, I assume the latter).

Terrorsquad.4802:

Also reading your “expensive” sentences are exhausting me too much, I never saw anyone talking like you except for university professors..

You may be onto something there…

Terrorsquad.4802:

I even understand native English/Americans far more easier.. This is like overkill English the way you’re talking (no offensive!!)

If you think my English is good, you should see my Japanese; I may be good at English, but I am a master at my native language… but alas, we are both now off topic.

if they gave all professions equal or more similar amount of baseline traits, this topic would not be here at all.

so, simple fix, starting giving non mesmer professions more baseline traits.