Guild Wars 2

note to forum moderator:
this topic is about mesmers having more traits made baseline than other professions, and to make things fair, other professions should have more traits made baseline as well. please do not merge this topic with other mesmer topics.

tl; dr
other professions should have more traits made baseline as well.

mesmers has too many traits made baseline, at least 6.
other professions have some, ele, thief, warriors only have one trait made baseline.

this is NOT balanced, and something needs to be done about it.

something, as in,
other professions should get equal amount of traits made baseline too.

for quick reference:

from here we got:
http://dulfy.net/2015/04/25/gw2-core-specializations/
(please correct me if there are more traits being baseline as i can’t seem to find a list else where other than dulfy ’s blog)

elementalist:
Blasting Staff: Area attacks with staff are larger.

*thief: *
+1 Venom additional charges

guardian:
Consecrated Ground (Consecration skills use ground targeting).
Elite duration increase
Improved Spirit weapon duration

mesmer:
Reduced glamour recharge rate
Phantasmal Strength: Phantasmal damage boost
Manipulation range.
Illusionary Persona: Shattering illusions creates the shatter effect on you as well.
Illusionary Elasticity: Bouncing attacks have one additional bounce.
Protected Mantras: Gain extra armor when you cast a mantra

necromancer:
Wells uses ground targeting
Minion recharge reduction
Focus weapon range increases
staff mastery: staff skills recharge reduction
greater marks: marks radius increased (unblockable moved into soul marks)

ranger:
Longbow velocity increase and range increase
75% trigger rate on spirits
Grant fury on use of Survival skills

*warrior: *
Stronger Bowstrings: Increases longbow range.

engineer:
Forceful Explosives (Bombs and mines have a larger explosion radius.)
Rifled Barrels (Improves rifle, pistol, harpoon gun, and elixir gun range)
Coated Bullets (Pistol shots pierce)
+1 Grenade on grenade skills

engineer notes:
forceful explosives seems bugged and not working as claimed by someone.

so …
what do we get?
the number of traits that were made baseline for each profession:

1.00 ele
1.00 thief
3.00 guardian
6.00 mesmer
4.50 necromancer
2.00 ranger
1.00 warrior
1.25 engineer

mesmers got 6 traits made baseline,
1 grandmaster major trait
2 master major traits
2 adept major traits
1 grandmaster minor trait

now, i’m not asking mesmers to be nerfed here, mesmers are fine now.
it is just that other professions are not strong enough.

other professions should have more traits made baseline, in order to be more balanced when compared with the amount of traits that mesmer got baseline.

starting with the warrior profession, of course, since warriors get only one traits made baseline after the big patch, and i’m a warrior player mainly, but that will be another topic for another day.

today, we discuss about how the mesmer has too many traits made baseline, and that other non mesmer professions should get more traits made baseline too!

so, the question is, do you agree that other non mesmer professions should get more traits made baseline?

discuss !

update:
made some changes after i realized warrior did get one trait made baseline.

I may consider making (parts of) some engineer traits regarding non-kit utilities baseline since they are forced to have at least 1/2 kits.

Warrior should get fast hands as baseline.

This way, warriors won’t have to invest in both Discipline and Defense to remain viable. They can just only invest in defense and have two traits spot free.

runeblade.7514:

Warrior should get fast hands as baseline.

This way, warriors won’t have to invest in both Discipline and Defense to remain viable. They can just only invest in defense and have two traits spot free.

I’m not a fan of fast hands being made baseline since it does not affect warrior skills/mechanics but a more general mechanic.

Mesmer is fine now, mesmer has too many baseline traits…contradiction right here. but I do understand what you’re saying. Mesmer needs tone down or rest needs buff… second option wich will result in the same thing as a mesmer nerf except for the fact that now all classes will be heavily over the top and this should not happen imo…only logical thing is nerf mesmer, it’s the most toxic class off all atm…and even bad players do exceptionally well on mesmer now

Oh noes, mesmer is actually viable the first time in 3 years, better get those nerfs rolling.

Mesmer is fine.

Darksteel.8412:

and even bad players do exceptionally well on mesmer now

No, they don’t.

Mesmer is a lot less oppressive after the mantra fix.

Velimere.7685:

Mesmer is fine.

Mesmer – it’s OP and you can one-shot everything from stealth while portalling your team across the map once per minute. This an answer from someone else in another topic…tho he is speaking the truth entirely right here. Mesmer is fine, nah it needs some heavy nerfs very heavy nerfs on the damage output

Darksteel.8412:

Mesmer is fine now, mesmer has too many baseline traits…contradiction right here. but I do understand what you’re saying. Mesmer needs tone down or rest needs buff… second option wich will result in the same thing as a mesmer nerf except for the fact that now all classes will be heavily over the top and this should not happen imo…only logical thing is nerf mesmer, it’s the most toxic class off all atm…and even bad players do exceptionally well on mesmer now

well, giving non mesmers more traits made baseline won’t exactly make them more powerful than they are currently, it has to depends on how powerful the traits are.

anyway, i was wrong about warrior having no traits made baseline, it has at least one.

Stronger Bowstrings: longbow range increased by 20% or 200

Mesmer is balanced.

So, based on assumptions made in this thread..mesmers are the most powerfull, followed by necro, then engi. Ranger and guard are ‘meh’ classes. And totally the worst and the weakest of them all are ele, thief and warrior. Mm…cant say anything about ranger or warrior because didnt play them in pvp, but when i hear ‘ele, thief’ and ‘weak’ in a single sentence i think ‘contradiction’.

Making traits baseline is just a way to balance things, like all other number tweaks and buffs/nerfs.

On a side related note Illusionary Elasticity doesnt work with Mirror Blade anymore which was the main reason to take this trait anyway. MB is in worse place than it was before all the patching since you cant even trait to get more bounces.

Darksteel.8412:

Velimere.7685:

Mesmer is fine.

Mesmer – it’s OP and you can one-shot everything from stealth while portalling your team across the map once per minute. This an answer from someone else in another topic…tho he is speaking the truth entirely right here. Mesmer is fine, nah it needs some heavy nerfs very heavy nerfs on the damage output

1) You only ever one-shot glass thieves and other mesmers, especially after the MB and Fire/Air nerfs. And those can do the same to you. Aside from bursts our damage is actually pretty low, because we are balanced with Clones and Phantasms in mind which you can kill without consequences.

2) Portal is on a 72s cd, which starts after you placed the 2nd portal, so it’s real cd is actually somehwere between 90-120s.

Iavra.8510:

Darksteel.8412:

Velimere.7685:

Mesmer is fine.

Mesmer – it’s OP and you can one-shot everything from stealth while portalling your team across the map once per minute. This an answer from someone else in another topic…tho he is speaking the truth entirely right here. Mesmer is fine, nah it needs some heavy nerfs very heavy nerfs on the damage output

1) You only ever one-shot glass thieves and other mesmers, especially after the MB and Fire/Air nerfs. And those can do the same to you. Aside from bursts our damage is actually pretty low, because we are balanced with Clones and Phantasms in mind which you can kill without consequences.

2) Portal is on a 72s cd, which starts after you placed the 2nd portal, so it’s real cd is actually somehwere between 90-120s.

no no no no no no no no, ik it’s slightly different in wvw and pvp, but I specifically asked this SFR mesmer (enemy) to burst my tank guardian wich had around 18k hp, my guardian was insta dead from one single burst, stop the hoax please. mesmer do oneshot nearly everything (armor 3k+) in obsi sanctum without buffs. combined with how easily it is applied (even without this in consideration) mesmer has one of the hardest bursts out of all classes

This is the PvP forum and WvW damage has always been much higher. You will likely never see Helseth being able to 100-0 a competent bunker guard.

Also, you don’t just stand there and let an engi/ranger/burnguard stack yourself with conditions, too, right?

If this is about pure damage, i’ll like to redirect you to the PvE community. Those would never take a mesmer for its raw damage.

Mesmer:
Reduced glamour recharge rate (Glamours had a huge cooldown and were rarely used in PvP, except portal)

Phantasmal Strength: Phantasmal damage boost (Fair exchange for loosing conditions on clone death)

Manipulation range. (Needed Buff IMO)

Illusionary Persona: Shattering illusions creates the shatter effect on you as well. (Having this trait in a line, completely ruined build diversity, shatter mesmers couldn’t even function properly without this, and even most other builds.)

Illusionary Elasticity: Bouncing attacks have one additional bounce. (This effect was removed on GS #2 which was pretty much the only ability that mattered, at this point loosing this trait wouldn’t even phase the mesmer)

Protected Mantras: Gain extra armor when you cast a mantra (Utterly laughably useless)

Balancing isn’t as black and white as you think.

Iavra.8510:

This is the PvP forum and WvW damage has always been much higher. You will likely never see Helseth being able to 100-0 a competent bunker guard.

Also, you don’t just stand there and let an engi/ranger/burnguard stack yourself with conditions, too, right?

If this is about pure damage, i’ll like to redirect you to the PvE community. Those would never take a mesmer for its raw damage.

realy? a full berserker stats warrior on ascended gear full, has slightly higher stats then in pvp, there is still this ferocity difference in wvw and pvp, but that is by no means a difference of a low burst into a full 18+k burst on 3k+ armor. it was in obsi sanctum with 0 buffs. mesmer is toxic

Phantom Master.9582:

Mesmer:
Reduced glamour recharge rate (Glamours had a huge cooldown and were rarely used in PvP, except portal)

Phantasmal Strength: Phantasmal damage boost (Fair exchange for loosing conditions on clone death)

Manipulation range. (Needed Buff IMO)

Illusionary Persona: Shattering illusions creates the shatter effect on you as well. (Having this trait in a line, completely ruined build diversity, shatter mesmers couldn’t even function properly without this, and even most other builds.)

Illusionary Elasticity: Bouncing attacks have one additional bounce. (This effect was removed on GS #2 which was pretty much the only ability that mattered, at this point loosing this trait wouldn’t even phase the mesmer)

Protected Mantras: Gain extra armor when you cast a mantra (Utterly laughably useless)

Balancing isn’t as black and white as you think.

so what?

still does not change the fact that mesmers have too many traits made baseline when compared against other professions.

i could say the same for certain warrior traits that should be made baseline.

face the facts please, the fact is that mesmer has more traits made baseline and other professions should be given a fair share as well.

The point that people are trying to make is, it does not matter how many traits from the OLD system were made baseline for mesmers. The old system does not matter anymore, get over it.

And for that matter, why even have builds? Make everything baseline and just smash keys.

This question is not about what is fair numerically, but what is fair and what works balance-wise.

Also: if you get “bursted” for 18k then you were either afk or looking at a tv show or high or all of these at once. There is no way in hell you were bursted for that much without enough time to react. Now if you had rubbish utilities or couldn’t dodge for whatever reason, that’s your own fault.

I agree that Fast Hands should be made baseline, but Mesmer is balanced and fine. You never see every team in a tournament take one, and you never see any team in a tournament take two.

Lusteregris.2697:

So, based on assumptions made in this thread..mesmers are the most powerfull, followed by necro, then engi.

The slight flaw being the assumptions in this thread are incorrect, engineers for example did not get extra pistol range made baseline, nor extra elixir gun range, nor did they get coated bullets.

serenke.4806:

The point that people are trying to make is, it does not matter how many traits from the OLD system were made baseline for mesmers. The old system does not matter anymore, get over it.

And for that matter, why even have builds? Make everything baseline and just smash keys.

This question is not about what is fair numerically, but what is fair and what works balance-wise.

Also: if you get “bursted” for 18k then you were either afk or looking at a tv show or high or all of these at once. There is no way in hell you were bursted for that much without enough time to react. Now if you had rubbish utilities or couldn’t dodge for whatever reason, that’s your own fault.

learn to read, I said I asked the enemy mesmer specifically to do it and yes I didn’t fight back…cause I wanted to see if it could actually take down 18k on 3k armor…get it now? learn to read in in context…in this case that wasn’t even needed for I stated: I asked the mesmer to do so…as an example,…get it? A check. Thanks for exposing yourself tho the mesmer defenders that is…your reply is full of anger imo and you didn’t even reply to what I said…for your assumptions/statements clearly show this for I asked the mesmer to do so for other reasons then to fight him lol. It becomes more clear that the mesmer indeed needs some nerfs excuse for some repeating the same point over and over in one response, but maybe then you will understand slightly better, my limited English may also contribute to you completely not understanding my posts, I hereby apolagize for this to you or anyone else for this matter because I am not English nor American. Mesmer is toxic.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

so what?

still does not change the fact that mesmers have too many traits made baseline when compared against other professions.

i could say the same for certain warrior traits that should be made baseline.

face the facts please, the fact is that mesmer has more traits made baseline and other professions should be given a fair share as well.

Yeah, because all traits are created equal? The number of traits will define the class’s balance precisely? No other factors other than traits define balance? Lost traits don’t count?

Hopefully you haven’t answered yes to any of these questions.

@Darksteel
You could have done the same with whirling blade
3k armor on heavy is almost glass anyway.

Well – this is “certainly constructive”. 3 threads on mesmer, and the same people spewing biased opinions without even wanting to debate how mesmer works or worked in the past.

Why don’t we look at how mesmer-traits were before? I mean, since day 1 (even beta) mesmers complained about our traits being all over the place. This is completely disregarding being OP or not – our traits were split up and put in random places basically leaving most of our weapons to be useless and so many skills not even remotely useful in pvp.

With all due respect: It is nonsensical to just blindly put the number of changes. It says nothing without the context. Even a pigeon would know that.

I play multiple classes – but I am frankly finding a many other classes to have more variety and many more options. Both now and in the past.

Poxxia.1547:

Well – this is “certainly constructive”. 3 threads on mesmer, and the same people spewing biased opinions without even wanting to debate how mesmer works or worked in the past.

Why don’t we look at how mesmer-traits were before? I mean, since day 1 (even beta) mesmers complained about our traits being all over the place. This is completely disregarding being OP or not – our traits were split up and put in random places basically leaving most of our weapons to be useless and so many skills not even remotely useful in pvp.

With all due respect: It is nonsensical to just blindly put the number of changes. It says nothing without the context. Even a pigeon would know that.

I play multiple classes – but I am frankly finding a many other classes to have more variety and many more options. Both now and in the past.

tho using proper sentence construction and using the proper words, you’re still talking nonsense, I’d rather not stick in the past. I know why you want to refer to it as an example, but I like to keep it in the now. Also in the … “past” mesmers weren’t useless/unviable… just needed to play the class better then some others. Also not saying that mesmer didn’t deserve buffs like any other…but let’s keep it at the like any other part then, for now the mesmer is severly overbuffed compared to any other (except maybe celem)

ya all can “defend” mesmer all you want, but the fact still remains that mesmer has the most traits made baseline compared against other professions, and mesmers are a bit more powerful at the moment when played right.

other professions need to have a bit more traits made baseline in order to make things more fair.

and seriously, mesmers were not useless at all before the patch, mesmers were viable even before the massive buffs they received.

now, mesmers are at the top of the food chain.
it is only fair for other professions at the bottom to receive some slice of the cake as well.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

ya all can “defend” mesmer all you want, but the fact still remains that mesmer has the most traits made baseline compared against other professions, and mesmers are a bit more powerful at the moment when played right.

other professions need to have a bit more traits made baseline in order to make things more fair.

and seriously, mesmers were not useless at all before the patch, mesmers were viable even before the massive buffs they received.

now, mesmers are at the top of the food chain.
it is only fair for other professions at the bottom to receive some slice of the cake as well.

See the following:

Velimere.7685:

You never see every team in a tournament take one, and you never see any team in a tournament take two.

Darksteel.8412:

Poxxia.1547:

Well – this is “certainly constructive”. 3 threads on mesmer, and the same people spewing biased opinions without even wanting to debate how mesmer works or worked in the past.

Why don’t we look at how mesmer-traits were before? I mean, since day 1 (even beta) mesmers complained about our traits being all over the place. This is completely disregarding being OP or not – our traits were split up and put in random places basically leaving most of our weapons to be useless and so many skills not even remotely useful in pvp.

With all due respect: It is nonsensical to just blindly put the number of changes. It says nothing without the context. Even a pigeon would know that.

I play multiple classes – but I am frankly finding a many other classes to have more variety and many more options. Both now and in the past.

tho using proper sentence construction and using the proper words, you’re still talking nonsense, I’d rather not stick in the past. I know why you want to refer to it as an example, but I like to keep it in the now. Also in the … “past” mesmers weren’t useless/unviable… just needed to play the class better then some others. Also not saying that mesmer didn’t deserve buffs like any other…but let’s keep it at the like any other part then, for now the mesmer is severly overbuffed compared to any other (except maybe celem)

Yeah, I thought you didn’t want to argue with me? Make up your mind – right now it is you who make no sense. Such a constructive things to throw at each other, isn’kitten

If you look at the traits made baseline, you are per definition also looking at the context. Is that really so hard to understand?

Also: I do agree with mesmers having a very high skill floor in the past. But that is not even enough. Even very skilled mesmers found, that they could contribute more playing other classes (take Xeph fx). Completely agree, that some very few became so exceptionally good (Helseth fx) – but does that exclusively something to do with the class? Or could there be some other much simpler explanation? I wonder.

I know you dislike mesmers state – but this way to look at things is blind, at best.

Poxxia.1547:

Darksteel.8412:

Poxxia.1547:

Well – this is “certainly constructive”. 3 threads on mesmer, and the same people spewing biased opinions without even wanting to debate how mesmer works or worked in the past.

Why don’t we look at how mesmer-traits were before? I mean, since day 1 (even beta) mesmers complained about our traits being all over the place. This is completely disregarding being OP or not – our traits were split up and put in random places basically leaving most of our weapons to be useless and so many skills not even remotely useful in pvp.

With all due respect: It is nonsensical to just blindly put the number of changes. It says nothing without the context. Even a pigeon would know that.

I play multiple classes – but I am frankly finding a many other classes to have more variety and many more options. Both now and in the past.

tho using proper sentence construction and using the proper words, you’re still talking nonsense, I’d rather not stick in the past. I know why you want to refer to it as an example, but I like to keep it in the now. Also in the … “past” mesmers weren’t useless/unviable… just needed to play the class better then some others. Also not saying that mesmer didn’t deserve buffs like any other…but let’s keep it at the like any other part then, for now the mesmer is severly overbuffed compared to any other (except maybe celem)

Yeah, I thought you didn’t want to argue with me? Make up your mind – right now it is you who make no sense. Such a constructive things to throw at each other, isn’kitten

If you look at the traits made baseline, you are per definition also looking at the context. Is that really so hard to understand?

Also: I do agree with mesmers having a very high skill floor in the past. But that is not even enough. Even very skilled mesmers found, that they could contribute more playing other classes (take Xeph fx). Completely agree, that some very few became so exceptionally good (Helseth fx) – but does that exclusively something to do with the class? Or could there be some other much simpler explanation? I wonder.

I know you dislike mesmers state – but this way to look at things is blind, at best.

Tbh I forgot who you were, that some people like Hellseth became very good at the mesmer has nothing to do with the class? it does, not exclusively maybe but it does relate… it shows that the class wasn’t unviable since they found even more usefull things to apply then other classes? (that’s what you said right?) and now is in fact severly overbuffed. Mesmers everywhere, all pro players? you’re actually making it easier for me to point things out. Ty.

Darksteel.8412:

Tbh I forgot who you were, that some people like Hellseth became very good at the mesmer has nothing to do with the class? it does, not exclusively maybe but it does relate… it shows that the class wasn’t unviable since they found even more usefull things to apply then other classes? (that’s what you said right?) and now is in fact severly overbuffed. Mesmers everywhere, all pro players? you’re actually making it easier for me to point things out. Ty.

I guess if you don’t understand any logical reasoning anything can make it easier. If you perhaps understood a fraction of what I wrote (or as a minimum remembered a tiny bit of what I wrote in the past and on my general view on mesmers), then we could have a conversation. But alas I will leave you to your rambling.
I bid you farewell.

Don ’t forget about that increased range on steal.

Anyway, I think you’re over thinking things a little OP. Mesmer had the most traits made baseline because it was the most trait dependent class before specialisations were introduced. Lots of traits were condensed, removed and redesigned so the most trait dependent class was inevitably going to see the most old traits integrated. It’s as simple as that.

Reaallllyyyyy?

Really? I can’t even… Really?

• Eles didn’t get as many traits baseline and are still beastly.
• Engineer got an entirely new f5. Can I get an f5?
• Burning guards, anyone?

I understand wanting the warrior buffed, but to really count the number of traits a class got made baseline (most of which people don’t even notice) to use as a reference for nerfs/buffs is… Not a very strong argument.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Snip

I’m not trying to sound mean buddy, but mesmers weren’t good pre-patch, every tool the mesmer had (except portal) was easily trumped by the tools thieves had. Mesmer didn’t bring anything to the table and was bad at 1v1s on top of that. Mesmers were almost complete trash.

Now they are buffed, and lots of teams don’t even have a Mesmer. They want more eles, because eles have many uses.

Mesmer is fine, in the past you ’’defended’’ warriors when the meta was practically 2 of them per team.

(Do you think 1v1s should be the main concern of Anet? Because its clearly not)

The main focus right now should be bringing D/D ele back in line with the rest, while giving a bit of buffs to rangers, engineers and necros.

(Probably a bit of love to warriors too… probably.)

giving non mesmers professions some removed traits as baseline would not break the game.

you guys are overeating.

mesmer is balanced, the other professions are not.

it is that hard to accept this?

Phantom Master.9582:

The main focus right now should be bringing D/D ele back in line with the rest, while giving a bit of buffs to rangers, engineers and necros.

(Probably a bit of love to warriors too… probably.)

i don’t play ele so i dunno how to comment on them.

i dunno how to nerf ele either so i won’t comment on them.

yes, warriors need some love, that, i will start another topic for that.

and no, this topic is not about me wanting to nerf mesmers.
mesmers are fine now.

warrior needs some love.
(yes, this is my intention)

Haha the ranger ones you mentioned that they got baseline aren’t even baseline… To get fury on survival skills you need to use a GM trait, same with velocity on the longbow which is also a GM trait. Hardly baseline.

Yes, longbow did get 1,500 range though baseline.

And the spirits are so bad, that baseline change literally doesn’t even matter.

So that leaves 2 for ranger.

Lol so much misinformation

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

mesmer:
Reduced glamour recharge rate
Phantasmal Strength: Phantasmal damage boost
Manipulation range.
Illusionary Persona: Shattering illusions creates the shatter effect on you as well.
Illusionary Elasticity: Bouncing attacks have one additional bounce.
Protected Mantras: Gain extra armor when you cast a mantra

Counting traits like this is pretty useless. The whole point of the specialization patch was that a lot of the old traits were trash, or were only “must-haves” because they fixed needless punitive/sucky baseline abilities.

The only instance of Illusionary Elasticity that truly matters — Mirror Blade — got nerfed right back out.

The shatter mechanic was borderline unusable without Illusionary Persona: slow running clones, clones insta-dying in melee, delays on Distortion. Making this a GM trait was a mistake from day one, and it really showed in the structure of competitive-viable builds pre-patch.

900 range for most skills is pretty much nonsense and removing a lot of these across the board for all classes was the right move. I wouldn’t even include this in the count.

Protected Mantras was never a trait worth taking, so… shrug?

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

giving non mesmers professions some removed traits as baseline would not break the game.

you guys are overeating.

mesmer is balanced, the other professions are not.

it is that hard to accept this?

Phantom Master.9582:

The main focus right now should be bringing D/D ele back in line with the rest, while giving a bit of buffs to rangers, engineers and necros.

(Probably a bit of love to warriors too… probably.)

i don’t play ele so i dunno how to comment on them.

i dunno how to nerf ele either so i won’t comment on them.

yes, warriors need some love, that, i will start another topic for that.

and no, this topic is not about me wanting to nerf mesmers.
mesmers are fine now.

warrior needs some love.
(yes, this is my intention)

Is it just me or did this guy’s tune completely change since his last reply?

blitzkrieg.2451:

Haha the ranger ones you mentioned that they got baseline aren’t even baseline… To get fury on survival skills you need to use a GM trait, same with velocity on the longbow which is also a GM trait. Hardly baseline.

Yes, longbow did get 1,500 range though baseline.

And the spirits are so bad, that baseline change literally doesn’t even matter.

So that leaves 2 for ranger.

Lol so much misinformation

aye, i’m not really a ranger player so sorry about that error.
i took the info from dulfy’s blog.

thanks for letting me know!
imma go correct it now.

Poxxia.1547:

Darksteel.8412:

Tbh I forgot who you were, that some people like Hellseth became very good at the mesmer has nothing to do with the class? it does, not exclusively maybe but it does relate… it shows that the class wasn’t unviable since they found even more usefull things to apply then other classes? (that’s what you said right?) and now is in fact severly overbuffed. Mesmers everywhere, all pro players? you’re actually making it easier for me to point things out. Ty.

I guess if you don’t understand any logical reasoning anything can make it easier. If you perhaps understood a fraction of what I wrote (or as a minimum remembered a tiny bit of what I wrote in the past and on my general view on mesmers), then we could have a conversation. But alas I will leave you to your rambling.
I bid you farewell.

if people just assume things or try to put words in someones mouth…like you simply assumed I’d be a raging thief yesterday, the fruitfull convo was never an option in the first place. or go like let’s try again as if you are vastly more intelligent then others here and need to teach others, no we can see very clearly and come to the conclusion that mesmer is abit to much… I’m not even complaigning about celem, no I also don’t have an ele. Thief don’t feel OP for me either, no…I don’t have a thief… necro’s are also getting quite hard to fight, no I don’t have a necro and don’t find any nerfs needed but somehow mesmer feels like it is realy out of place

ASP.8093:

Protected Mantras was never a trait worth taking, so… shrug?

they said they removed necromancer’s dark armor because no one was using it.
they could have made it baseline.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dark_Armor

only affects 3 land skills, 1 downed skill
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Channeled_skill

would be a nice gesture to throw in this trait for free.
but now, they removed it completely.

This thread makes no sense at all.

>>Class A got X traits baseline, so class B needs the same amount made baseline<< ?
No. Just no. It’s about the quality and context of traits within the class, not the naked number. If this is just another attempt to get your main class buffed, then just name the child from start on.

Instead of further power creep, some of the over-the-top stuff needs nerfs to get everything somehow even again. Like the Mantra fix, or the MB nerf – imo.

Also…
“This is not about me wanting to nerf mesmers”
“mesmers has too many traits made baseline”
löl.

Deimos – everything is working as intended. Nothing wrong here. Move along.

or why should a warrior have to trait for adrenaline gain, why not just have it gain while in combat. It’s a warrior… I’m not even asking for fast hands baseline, just make the adrenaline gaining traits more usefull and let warrior gain adrenaline so long he/she remains in combat. I know it’s paired with some other bonus but still make it more usefull and have adrenaline be baseline. It is warrior defining? Cause now if somehow you don’t want to play these traitlines it becomes a more calm downed warrior :P lol…is funny but makes no sense, warrior’s are angry while in combat always

You can’t just count how many traits each class got to baseline with the Specialization patch, did it occur to you that maybe some classes had too few features baseline, while other classes had more of it? Obviously those lacking baseline features would get a higher number of features baseline with the update, than those that already had enough baseline features.

Darksteel.8412:

if people just assume things or try to put words in someones mouth…like you simply assumed I’d be a raging thief yesterday, the fruitfull convo was never an option in the first place. or go like let’s try again as if you are vastly more intelligent then others here and need to teach others, no we can see very clearly and come to the conclusion that mesmer is abit to much… I’m not even complaigning about celem, no I also don’t have an ele. Thief don’t feel OP for me either, no…I don’t have a thief… necro’s are also getting quite hard to fight, no I don’t have a necro and don’t find any nerfs needed but somehow mesmer feels like it is realy out of place

- I wasn’t assuming you were a raging thief. I confused 2 names – the other being a very vocal thief. What your profession is, is irrelevant for the argument as such, but of course relevant for understanding the context. If I make the mistake of basing my argument on your profession, then it should naturally be called out – no one did that. I like to think, that I have, in all our conversations, stayed with the argument. You on the other hand refused/read to answer to my reply … . And now you claim, I put anything in your mouth … ?

- I have at all times said, that I found mesmers needing some adjustments, but clearly nothing as blind as this, nor as blind as making mantras impractical. Look at the mesmer-forum; you would be surprised, that almost every top-mesmer is/was saying, that mesmers were OTT.

- The fruitful discussion was always an option for me. Apart from this thread, I don’t see any point in being condescending, but you really kept on being rude and frankly ignoring/twisting half of what I said.

- I stay with my argument: I find it to be wrong to just blindly looking at the baseline changes in a vacuum. I can’t even see as an indication of anything, for sure. In other words: You can make anything out of it. And that is what I find to be done here: An interpretation, to fit a certain purpose. Nothing more. I can easily elaborate on that, but so has so many other people.

- I am not vastly intelligent or anything – I am your average guy with an uni-degree, nothing more. And I regard myself to be a nub gamewise. I like to think, that I my logic is fairly coherent, that is all.

If you want to reply to this, then we can take it to PM’s – but then I ask you to read my replies. There is no point in keeping this going on the forum.

How about say pre patch, if everyone ran 0/0/0/0/0 on every class, Mesmer would be the worst by far – in other words, traits were more crucial/game changing for Mesmer than any other class, as evidenced by how difficult it was to level a Mesmer to 80 outside of pvp after the NPE changes.

For example certain things being unplayable until unlocking DE or IP, staff autos being pathetikittenil unlocking iElasticity, and so on. Add to that the number of “useless traits” (ie Protected Mantras) that nobody ever took because either they couldn’t spare the trait points due to Mesmer (pre patch) being extremely pigeonholed in trait options for effective builds, or because the alternative trait options were just totally superior.

Now fast forward to post patch – immediately we can see that mesmers are less reliant on specific traits than they used to be and certain things (weapons/skills) are actually effective untraited.

Now can you see why these traits were made baseline?

If you want warrior buffed – which incidentally I agree with for the sake of warrior build and gameplay variety – then just ask for it plainly and straightforwardly. Comparing the number of “baseline traits” pre and post patch in two entirely different systems as well as being out of context is not a sensible way to look at things.

Deimos Tel Arin.7391:

Phantom Master.9582:

Mesmer:
Reduced glamour recharge rate (Glamours had a huge cooldown and were rarely used in PvP, except portal)

Phantasmal Strength: Phantasmal damage boost (Fair exchange for loosing conditions on clone death)

Manipulation range. (Needed Buff IMO)

Illusionary Persona: Shattering illusions creates the shatter effect on you as well. (Having this trait in a line, completely ruined build diversity, shatter mesmers couldn’t even function properly without this, and even most other builds.)

Illusionary Elasticity: Bouncing attacks have one additional bounce. (This effect was removed on GS #2 which was pretty much the only ability that mattered, at this point loosing this trait wouldn’t even phase the mesmer)

Protected Mantras: Gain extra armor when you cast a mantra (Utterly laughably useless)

Balancing isn’t as black and white as you think.

so what?

still does not change the fact that mesmers have too many traits made baseline when compared against other professions.

i could say the same for certain warrior traits that should be made baseline.

face the facts please, the fact is that mesmer has more traits made baseline and other professions should be given a fair share as well.

If Mesmer has “too many” traits baseline you have to say which one shouldn’t be there (this is what “too many” means – I have too many things to carry I should put one down).

Also you seem to think that volume is the most important thing, if I give you twenty £1 coins and your friend one £50 note who got the most?

The only baseline trait Mesmer got that should be fiddled with imo is the +15% Phant damage, that should be removed and the trait should be increased to compensate. This makes it a choice between +30% Phant damage or Daze=Stun, essentially keeping the PvE build the same and nerfing the PvP build’s Phant damage.

You’ve had a history of terrible posts and ideas on the forums and this is yet another to add to that list – just an excuse for more buffs to classes you like (warrior).

Edit @Darksteel Stop using WvW damage to make claims here, its ridiculous…

Curunen.8729:

How about say pre patch, if everyone ran 0/0/0/0/0 on every class, Mesmer would be the worst by far

Worst by far??? You gotta be joking.

Ele without evasive arcana, cantrip traits and elemental attunement is squishy as hell.

Warrior without cleansing ire, fast hands will get destroyed by condis and the combat fluidity disappears.

Medi guard without medi traits has no sustain and does low dmg.

Mesmer with no traits is still a ranged high dmg class. With lots of defensive sources via teleports and stealth.

xDudisx.5914:

Curunen.8729:

How about say pre patch, if everyone ran 0/0/0/0/0 on every class, Mesmer would be the worst by far

Worst by far??? You gotta be joking.

Ele without evasive arcana, cantrip traits and elemental attunement is squishy as hell.

Warrior without cleansing ire, fast hands will get destroyed by condis and the combat fluidity disappears.

Medi guard without medi traits has no sustain and does low dmg.

Mesmer with no traits is still a ranged high dmg class. With lots of defensive sources via teleports and stealth.

My observation comes from levelling classes in pve (the only one I have never levelled is necro so I can’t comment on that).

Mesmer was the hardest to level until having unlocked key traits. Everything else was easy in comparison (especially ele and warrior) they were still decently effective without any key traits.

So yes I didn’t mean in pvp with classes going up against each other, although I still reckon pre patch Mesmer would have been the worst untraited.