Guild Wars 2

Caelus.7139:

I think OP is troll guise

I’m inclined to agree, this is getting silly now.

@OP – the targeting system is not “great” given they went half way towards an action TPS game, but decided to keep the archaic tab targeting and hold right click to turn camera.

Having said that, fighting a Mesmer using this tab targeting system is nowhere near as difficult as you say it is. The only possible difficult targeting situation is if up against a PU build running traited torch, veil, decoy, MI, and yeah may as well throw desperate decoy in there as well.

For pretty much every other Mesmer build, fighting one is no more difficult than any other class – and in fact much easier than most “obnoxious” meta builds – such as celestial engi, ele, warrior, any thief, any guardian, terrormancers, minionmancers, power rangers, Condi rangers, spirit rangers… the list goes on.

If you are unable to distinguish between different Mesmer builds you are fighting against, then you almost certainly are unable to identify key skills/cooldowns and tactics, and then it is purely a L2P issue, as has already been stated by pretty much everyone in here.

Edit: Get some good keybinds for targeting and learn to use them fluently and efficiently (nearest enemy, next/previous enemy and so on).

To many Pets / AI running around… You want to play the game against another class and you’re inundated with 15 AI pets running around trying to find your target between animations, rolls, and effects!

I’d reserve Mesmer hate until we actually have a build in the meta and are competitively viable again. Sure, if you’re a great DRS Mesmer, you stand a chance, but even then, you aren’t worth more than one of the current meta builds. I wish there were more viable Mesmer builds. Many different play styles, but ultimately inferior. That being said, Mesmer is quite a tough class to play. One of the toughest if not the toughest I’d say. I’d roll a Mesmer and see how it all works before ranting about the difficulty of fighting one.

Especially with a Ranger kitten . One rapid fire and were down at half health

Drakortha.6974:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

If this isn’t one of the most narrow-minded perspectives…

My perspective is they vanish a lot and throw a lot of fluff on my screen and make a joke of the games targeting system, which works very well in any other fight. I don’t know what more you want.

Guild Wars 2 has a targeting system that works. I just happen to think the Mesmer downplays it quite a bit and I think it gives them a good advantage, especially against newer players. Thief also. I don’t think a classes strengths should be based on how well it downplays the game itself.. that might be bad design, but hey, I’m no game designer.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

longbow – single target damage. POINTLESS
shortbow – single target damage. POINTLESS
Axe – bounces multiple targets, kitten damage. POINTLESS
Greatsword – single target damage, slow. POINTLESS
Sword – single target damage. target dodges, goes invisible. POINTLESS
Entangle – Thief and Mesmers completely immune to my control. POINTLESS
Pet. POINTLESS

Are you honestly going to post all this in your OP and then claim…

What I’m saying there is that my weapons are useless at dealing damage when an enemy is untargeted, as with most weapons in the game. I didn’t explain that well enough. Invisibility and Untargeting is a counter to pretty much all of my weapons. And with the thief, I think it’s a bit too accessible for them.

You know how a lot of thieves come across as really confident? That’s because they KNOW how well they can abuse invisibility so they feel kind of invinsible at times (a good thief actually can be). Makes beating them all the sweeter, though. Burning up downed thieves with my torch is a hobby of mine

Ok while I am still fairly new to this game. I am pretty sure the removing target is not new. I have seen it in EQ2 and other MMOs. You have to realize where warrior get high health, high armor, and variety of weapons, guardian while low health have multitudes of regens/buffs, necros get pets, ranger bow, traps etc. Each class has awesome mechanics. I wish I could play all them. I see what the other posters are saying is that you have to understand Mesmer and Thief both cannot rely on high health or armor so the mechanics are set up to yes give them an advantage in some instances, but as others have said this is NOT IMMUNITY. Mesmers are there to dazzle peoples eyes and make them wonder where they are what they are doing…OMG they are illusionists at heart. They are their to befuddled opponents…that is their style..just like EQ 1 where the Enchanters (which were absolutely fantasitc) could charm and mezmerize their foes. My damage was average to other casters, but I enjoyed that instead of AOEing and hoping mobs dies. I could be the traffic cop and stop mobs/people from attacking so my group could take them on one by one. I found that fun. I also liked making mobs fight for me. Was I liked in groups not at first (due to people wanting dps), but once people realized how useful the class was…most loved having one in group..plus the mana regen didn’t hurt You may not like the mechanics of these professions, but doesn’t mean class isn’t viable. That is the reason people play them. Not everyone wants to blast and be up front..but to slim their damage just because they don’t get in your face is wrong. Each class has a reason for it and that is why people enjoy it.

In a PvP environment everyone on the enemy team will be trying their best to kill you… Rest assured, they will be a pain in the nuts to fight regardless which class they are playing.

Engineers will drown you in CC’s, conditions, grenades, SLICK SHOES.
Guardians will stay on you like a bloodhound, cleanse condis, heal for 2k with each meditation, have an absurd amount of blocks.
Thieves will jump on you and then if you happen to hit them back, stealth away just to come back and kick you in the nuts.
You’ll think you have that ele dead in a few moments and then… oh water attunement, back up to 80% hp.
Rangers will pepper you with arrows from insane range and when you are done closing the gap they’ll try to entangle you and if you manage to pressure them they can pop invulnerability or switch to gs and block (or sword/x and evade like a boss). Or stealth away with LB 3….

You’ll notice that each of these has the potential to be a pain in the behind to fight, but you cannot ask other people to run dumb builds that do not bring the best out of their respective classes just because you want easy kills.

I hate to say it but L2P.

Crimson.8043:

I see what the other posters are saying is that you have to understand Mesmer and Thief both cannot rely on high health or armor so the mechanics are set up to yes give them an advantage in some instances, but as others have said this is NOT IMMUNITY.

To be fair, being in stealth is an immunity to 53 skills in the game.
Here is a list, if you’re curious.

Ignore the Mesmer mantras, as after I made that post, they were changed to be AoE.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

To be fair, being in stealth is an immunity to 53 skills in the game.
Here is a list, if you’re curious.

Ignore the Mesmer mantras, as after I made that post, they were changed to be AoE.

I’m not sure that list really says much at all. For example, while it’s true that you can’t activate Sic Em against an opponent currently in stealth, (in comparison to, say, potentially hit them with a totally blind-fired Hip Shot), Sic Em is obviously not at all a liability against stealth builds.

~

N.B. mesmers actually have more trouble hitting a stealthed target than rangers do. Can’t create phantasms (and existing ones don’t attack), can’t use Spatial Surge, gotta rely on other enemies present to hit with a lot of other skills.

And, once again, rangers get stealth. Against mesmers it’s basically guaranteed stealth if you just shoot your arrow at a clone or phantasm. :/

All it’s stating is that Stealth is an immunity to a number of skills. Just like activating a Block after you’ve already been hit doesn’t matter, activating Stealth after one of those skills has hit you doesn’t matter. “Sic Em’s” usefulness depends on its timing in relation to stealth, for example. Not a liability in any stretch, but if it goes off second well, sorry, but it did nothing.

Threads like this is why Mesmer will always be an underwhelming class, and never see consistent play in top tier.

The “AoE” matras still need target.

MailMail.6534:

Threads like this is why Mesmer will always be an underwhelming class, and never see consistent play in top tier.

I feel we will never see that much play in top tier not because of threads like this, more so because of mesmers glaring weaknesses that Anet still hasn’t addressed.

jportell.2197:

MailMail.6534:

Threads like this is why Mesmer will always be an underwhelming class, and never see consistent play in top tier.

I feel we will never see that much play in top tier not because of threads like this, more so because of mesmers glaring weaknesses that Anet still hasn’t addressed.

I dubbed it “3 slot syndrome” on a thread discussing Necromancers. Until today, Necro builds needed Corrupt Boon and 2 stunbreaks.

Mesmers have an even more severe case of it, sadly.

jportell.2197:

MailMail.6534:

Threads like this is why Mesmer will always be an underwhelming class, and never see consistent play in top tier.

I feel we will never see that much play in top tier not because of threads like this, more so because of mesmers glaring weaknesses that Anet still hasn’t addressed.

I’m not sticking up for Anet, but it’s easy for them to use threads like this as a cop out to ignore these glaring issues. Gw2 is built on a casual gamer base. Most players aren’t that proficient at pvp, which is why a lot of people have issues with Mesmer.

I find a ranger whining about Mesmers truly laughable. Between your guided missle pet, long immob and one shot kill from outside my range… oh and did I mention almost thief level stealth?

There is no reason in the world you should feel put upon by Mesmers. You know? I don’t like to say this but in this case I will return what rangers are so fond of saying to me;

LEARN TO PLAY

… You know I’d actually have considered enlightening OP with the core concepts of break down for what shatter (Being the arguably top viable spec) has in his *ar·se·nal, but this isn’t even about “MES IS OP!” …

Clearly OP this is a not just a “L2P” level issue where you need to learn the game mechanics, oh no, THIS is a game sense level L2P!

You clearly have no ability to track player motions and positioning, as well as a lack of ability to react to or anticipate pressure.

This is an issue ALL decent players overcome and can adapt to, and for the mass majority is developed over time through playing the game.

This is why we need a minimum requirement to post on this forum. Nothing to high so it neglects low end play, but should be tailored so we don’t get posts like OP (or atleast less). Frankly IMO (and realizing it has nothing to do with skill) By this point in time after 2 years of play and the rank point reductions. Unless you are Rank 80, Or Have atleast 150+ qualifier points if not 80, Or have been on LB for more than a month or two. You either lack the game sense, or do not have the experience to have a valid(and worthwhile) opinion on balance.

I think I’m already setting the bar low, however I could see a global thing of r60+ or something, or else you cannot post in the sPvP forum.

*(Stupid overly sensitive chat filter)

sounds like op needs to learn to play the game and not complain at the slightest bit of failure against something he doesnt like, the world isnt a silver spoon world and neither should gw2

i hate running into mesmers but i know when i lose to a good one because their movement is so subtle

Why is this thread still here? This is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever heard. Go play the game so much that you hit rank 80. Then you can claim to have the experience to say what should be removed and what shouldn’t.

In the mean time I’d recommend playing as Mesmer for a week. You’ll probably rage so hard at how difficult it is (especially in comparison to Ranger) to pull your own weight that you’ll quit the game.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

All it’s stating is that Stealth is an immunity to a number of skills. Just like activating a Block after you’ve already been hit doesn’t matter, activating Stealth after one of those skills has hit you doesn’t matter. “Sic Em’s” usefulness depends on its timing in relation to stealth, for example. Not a liability in any stretch, but if it goes off second well, sorry, but it did nothing.

You’re right Dranor, stealth IS an immunity. Range is also an immunity. I don’t have the patience to list every skill, but if someone is further than 600 units, most of your melee skills will miss. I’m sure you’re good enough at the game to know not to use melee skills against ranged targets. So don’t use skills that require a target against stealthed opponents, it’s as simple as that.

Althoigh it’s nice to have your two cents added, and the more opinions creates growth and can illuminate objective views, however please don’t revive a thread almost a week old. Everything has been more or Less addressed… And I’m sorry to say @bertboy there was nothing in your post that was new to add to the topic.

I’m not a mod or anything but just out of manners try to be a bit more cognizant of the thread.

Perhaps I’m missing something but as someone who plays a Mesmer as my main character, it takes a good bit of practice to really master the class. I’ve been playing a Mesmer since right after launch and I learn new tricks all the time. Crap, I still get my butt kicked by folks who know how to counter my tricks.

The Mesmer is a pretty easy class to defeat if you understand their mechanics and how they think. It’s the Mesmer that knows how to blend in with his/her clones that you have to watch out for. If the player knows how to “mesmer,” then you’re probably screwed.

Sorel.4870:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

All it’s stating is that Stealth is an immunity to a number of skills. Just like activating a Block after you’ve already been hit doesn’t matter, activating Stealth after one of those skills has hit you doesn’t matter. “Sic Em’s” usefulness depends on its timing in relation to stealth, for example. Not a liability in any stretch, but if it goes off second well, sorry, but it did nothing.

You’re right Dranor, stealth IS an immunity. Range is also an immunity. I don’t have the patience to list every skill, but if someone is further than 600 units, most of your melee skills will miss. I’m sure you’re good enough at the game to know not to use melee skills against ranged targets. So don’t use skills that require a target against stealthed opponents, it’s as simple as that.

You missed the point entirely. Take a look at those skills I listed and let me know what you notice.

Actually, don’t bother. Many of them are weapon skills that are on the same weapons. Saying “don’t use them on stealthed targets” is foolish, because you literally can’t. At the same time, that means you really can’t do anything to someone in stealth if you have those weapons equipped. Say you have a Scepter/X Ele. 4 skills have zero ability to do anything to someone in stealth, and only two on the weapon are ground targetted for you to even guess with. What are they supposed to do when faced with stealth?

Unlike range issues where you can close the gap, there is literally nothing you can do regarding stealth: that is entirely in the stealther’s hands.

Now, am I saying this is really a problem? No. But it does exist and comparing it to range is utterly missing the point.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Sorel.4870:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

All it’s stating is that Stealth is an immunity to a number of skills. Just like activating a Block after you’ve already been hit doesn’t matter, activating Stealth after one of those skills has hit you doesn’t matter. “Sic Em’s” usefulness depends on its timing in relation to stealth, for example. Not a liability in any stretch, but if it goes off second well, sorry, but it did nothing.

You’re right Dranor, stealth IS an immunity. Range is also an immunity. I don’t have the patience to list every skill, but if someone is further than 600 units, most of your melee skills will miss. I’m sure you’re good enough at the game to know not to use melee skills against ranged targets. So don’t use skills that require a target against stealthed opponents, it’s as simple as that.

You missed the point entirely. Take a look at those skills I listed and let me know what you notice.

Actually, don’t bother. Many of them are weapon skills that are on the same weapons. Saying “don’t use them on stealthed targets” is foolish, because you literally can’t. At the same time, that means you really can’t do anything to someone in stealth if you have those weapons equipped. Say you have a Scepter/X Ele. 4 skills have zero ability to do anything to someone in stealth, and only two on the weapon are ground targetted for you to even guess with. What are they supposed to do when faced with stealth?

Unlike range issues where you can close the gap, there is literally nothing you can do regarding stealth: that is entirely in the stealther’s hands.

Now, am I saying this is really a problem? No. But it does exist and comparing it to range is utterly missing the point.

I stand behind my comparison. You mentioned scepter elementalist, and you are entirely right: whenever I play that build, I get completely owned by thieves, precisely because my skills require a target. That’s actually THE major counter to this build, and you should never duel a thief on a scepter ele. The problem is that with their mobility, thieves get to decide who they duel, and for that reason, scepter elementalist -and shatter mesmer- are not doing great in the meta.

However, I said I stood behind my comparison. Have you tried dueling a shatter mesmer with GS on a GS/hammer warrior? You are at a terrible disadvantage, because nearly every single skill on your weapons are melee, and the mesmer has a lot of tools to stay at range. So yeah, you can’t expect every weapon set to work great against stealthed targets, just like you can’t expect every weapon set to perform well against ranged targets.

Treat stealth like you treat range: if you have a problem with that, bring the tools you need to deal with it. Most meta builds (with the strange exception of dd elementalist) have a combination of melee and ranged abilities, and a combination of AoE and single target abilities. Picking wisely which ability to use at which moment is crucial, and part of the fun. I know that on my mesmer, if I use my GS 5 skill before the thief drops his refuge, I’m dead. So I keep it. That’s the reasoning you should be having.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Unlike range issues where you can close the gap, there is literally nothing you can do regarding stealth: that is entirely in the stealther’s hands.

By the way, the skills who don’t work against stealthed targets are in fewer numbers than the melee skills, obviously. So you just need to save a bit of AoE for when you foe stealths.

Not sure how you think GS Warriors would have a problem keeping up to anyone that’s not a Thief, considering that is literally the fastest moving weapon in the game. GS/Hammer (a terrible setup, but let’s go with it) has two ranged cripples (Mesmers have very little swiftness and no passive movespeed boosts), three gap closers, and on top of that, weakness to limit dodging.

Sure, if you think you’re going to land a 100Blades on a Mesmer, you’re an idiot, but GS/Hammer has no issues staying on top of a Mesmer due to having superior mobility and snares. The Mesmer at best has one knockback, Blink, and Phase Retreat to try and open the gap again.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Not sure how you think GS Warriors would have a problem keeping up to anyone that’s not a Thief, considering that is literally the fastest moving weapon in the game. GS/Hammer (a terrible setup, but let’s go with it) has two ranged cripples (Mesmers have very little swiftness and no passive movespeed boosts), three gap closers, and on top of that, weakness to limit dodging.

Sure, if you think you’re going to land a 100Blades on a Mesmer, you’re an idiot, but GS/Hammer has no issues staying on top of a Mesmer due to having superior mobility and snares.

Take your hammer/GS warrior and come duel me. Although, I lost to a couple of warriors in WvW lately, but the stat increase in WvW on warriors is insane, and I’m not afraid to admit they outplayed me. You’re right in the sense that GS/Hammer is a strong dueling build because, just like dd ele, it has good gap closers. It still is a bit week to ranged builds.

If this build is having great troubles against mesmers, imagine how other full melee builds without teleports would do. Some warriors run Mace-Shield/Hammer, and that build is terrible precisely because you have no way of fighting ranged targets. The same logic applies (though it’s less of problems) to builds who have no way to deal with stealthed targets. For example, if you’re gonna play a scepter elementalist, you will get absolutely destroyed if you don’t take a focus and Arcane Shield. That’s what making a good build is about: compromises.

Which is why I said that I didn’t see stealth being an immunity to be a problem. I still greatly disagree with your assertion that “range” is an immunity. Avoidance and immunity are two completely different things, and “range” is avoidance that can be negated.

And I haven’t even gotten on my Warrior in like 6 months, so any duel on there will be poorly played by me. I won’t pretend otherwise.

I’d rather have a mesmer on my team than 98% of thieves out there. Unless a thief is one of the top 10 in the game, they are not very good. Having a thief is basically like being in a 4v5 from the start.

Mesmer is my main in PvP. You just have to practice finding the right target and sticking to it. Get that down, and you should be golden.