Guild Wars 2

S-Tier-Master-race-Needs-to-be-toned-down-tier
Necromancer
Burst Elementalist
Spirit Ranger

B-Tier-Balanced-
Everything else

P-Tier-Peasant-
Mesmer

Oidmetala.8426:

rly interesting to put spirit ranger on s-tier and same spot like necro…
dont know, but its for sure not a to strong build.

looks like rangers goes always rly fast from b-tier to s-tier when they only get a good balanced build.
its more weak build then the necro atm and you guys put him on same spot…
dont know how u can do that.
a skilled ranger player cant destroy a skilled necro player.
as spirit ranger u have only a chance with a fast fight, but vs a good nec its always a long fight and you lose that because when spirits death you will lose so sure.

a spirit ranger can lose vs a skilled cc warrior, the warrior have better win chances then the spirit ranger

a spirit ranger lose more often vs a necro as he win him

a spirit ranger can lose vs a s/d thief when he first destroy spirits with shortbow

spirit ranger vs bomb engi is also 50/50
and bomb engi get nearly always a decap

sry guys, but its so a well balanced build in my mind atm and for sure not in s-tier

It appears as if you’re only considering 1v1’s which are a relatively small part of competitive play.

I think people overrate S/D thief.

Narcarsis.5739:

I think people overrate S/D thief.

The only reason it’s top tier right now is because most players/teams still don’t understand the build and how it plays well enough to deal with it effectively. It was a lot stronger before the necro god tier patch but I still think its a very strong spec. As people start to figure out whats actually happening it will get tremendously weaker. It also has some hard counters that can almost completely shut down the build.

S/D effectiveness relies on the other player making mistakes. For instance I see a lot of players trying to run from s/d thieves which is crazy. It’s probably harder to run from a s/d thief than any other spec in the game. I also still see A LOT of players dodging flanking strike instead of larcenous and blowing burst on evade frames.

Batmang.5421:

Oidmetala.8426:

rly interesting to put spirit ranger on s-tier and same spot like necro…
dont know, but its for sure not a to strong build.

looks like rangers goes always rly fast from b-tier to s-tier when they only get a good balanced build.
its more weak build then the necro atm and you guys put him on same spot…
dont know how u can do that.
a skilled ranger player cant destroy a skilled necro player.
as spirit ranger u have only a chance with a fast fight, but vs a good nec its always a long fight and you lose that because when spirits death you will lose so sure.

a spirit ranger can lose vs a skilled cc warrior, the warrior have better win chances then the spirit ranger

a spirit ranger lose more often vs a necro as he win him

a spirit ranger can lose vs a s/d thief when he first destroy spirits with shortbow

spirit ranger vs bomb engi is also 50/50
and bomb engi get nearly always a decap

sry guys, but its so a well balanced build in my mind atm and for sure not in s-tier

It appears as if you’re only considering 1v1’s which are a relatively small part of competitive play.

ye, why i should not.
its hes main job to hold such situations on his close, or im wrong?

on teamfight its not so op strong build as u think, spirits die rly fast on teamfight situations.
rly nice is the spirit rez, but anet have give this skill a huge cooldown, so its ok.

in my mind the meta is not so destroyed as many ppls think atm.
there are not so much nerfs need.
just some litte buffs can bring a good balance.
also warriors is finaly rly viable. its strong profession in my mind

Batmang.5421:

Alkaholic.3875:

Batmang.5421:

Alkaholic.3875:

I didn’t think so, was just curious cause someone said they need a slight nerf. Were both rangers in [SYC] spirit rangers?

its not HGH its bomb/nade thats needs to be toned down. I think the real source of the problem is nades though. And of course they were both spirit rangers :p

That’s sad that one could cheese their way to the championship. They prolly play their classes way better than me but this seems like quite the copout.

They didn’t “cheese their way to the championship”. They are great players that played the most effective builds atm. They definitely deserved to win. They played the best and none of their players got carried.

I don’t think running 2 spirit ranger is cheese (3 would be imo) although i do think its imbalanced to have more than 1 unique class on a team. Whats really sad is that one of their core members (skovex) who is an amazing player had to step down from the team because he plays ele/war and he knew they wouldn’t be able to win with an ele or war.

I didn’t mean to discredit or disrespect any of the players in [SYC]. I’m sure I’ve run against each of them at some point while being a hotjoin hero and been face down awaiting the rez timer. But anytime a team has 2 of a particular build, one that utilizes passive buffs, one that’s generally regarded as…ummm…not so high ceiling ish…it begs the question of balance. They used the tools put in front of them by A-Net to win, kudos to them. I just would like my fav game’s top pvp representative to not have a cloud of question hanging over them.

I may not be stating that right so maybe I should just kitten…

Narcarsis.5739:

I think people overrate S/D thief.

^this. The only reason they are listed so high is because as we saw in the tourney high end teams use them to condi bomb for an opener (??? what is this wvw…? getting pretty close to it).

Alkaholic.3875:

Batmang.5421:

Alkaholic.3875:

Batmang.5421:

Alkaholic.3875:

I didn’t think so, was just curious cause someone said they need a slight nerf. Were both rangers in [SYC] spirit rangers?

its not HGH its bomb/nade thats needs to be toned down. I think the real source of the problem is nades though. And of course they were both spirit rangers :p

That’s sad that one could cheese their way to the championship. They prolly play their classes way better than me but this seems like quite the copout.

They didn’t “cheese their way to the championship”. They are great players that played the most effective builds atm. They definitely deserved to win. They played the best and none of their players got carried.

I don’t think running 2 spirit ranger is cheese (3 would be imo) although i do think its imbalanced to have more than 1 unique class on a team. Whats really sad is that one of their core members (skovex) who is an amazing player had to step down from the team because he plays ele/war and he knew they wouldn’t be able to win with an ele or war.

I didn’t mean to discredit or disrespect any of the players in [SYC]. I’m sure I’ve run against each of them at some point while being a hotjoin hero and been face down awaiting the rez timer. But anytime a team has 2 of a particular build, one that utilizes passive buffs, one that’s generally regarded as…ummm…not so high ceiling ish…it begs the question of balance. They used the tools put in front of them by A-Net to win, kudos to them. I just would like my fav game’s top pvp representative to not have a cloud of question hanging over them.

I may not be stating that right so maybe I should just kitten…

Both Vyndetta and Twerp dislike spirits, they find it boring to play. The same way I find S/D boring to play. The difference being is that I have an alternative that I can play viably, they do not. In my honest opinion they are the two best rangers I’ve seen in this game, along with Battosai in EU. I don’t question their skill levels, I rely on them, and they almost always deliver. If there were a different build they could run in this meta I believe they would run it, but spirits far outweigh the alternatives.

That being said almost everyone else ran spirit rangers.

S
Warrior
Mesmer

A
Ele

C
Ranger
Engi
Guardian
Necro
Thief

Near the skill cap and in high level tourneys:

Tier S
Spirit rangers

Tier A
Engis
Guardians
Necros
Warriors
Thieves
Eles

Tier B
Mesmers

I don’t think the meta has properly shifted away from necros because people finally got a taste of condis via an easy to play class. Engineers are a decent bit better than necromancers but require FAR more skill to play. People have latched on to necros because they were incredibly overpowered a couple weeks back and they have a lot of synergy with spirit rangers despite filling the same role an engineer does. However, a large majority of players will continue to play necros because it’s a more effective option for them. It’s also far tankier with plague form, protection and large amounts of condi clear. Necros are also pretty effective against spirit rangers with their CC and condi clear/control.

Alas, spirit rangers will continue to dominate the meta and reign supreme until we see some changes. They’re stupid easy to play, their elite is simply broken in its efficacy and their on-point physical DPS from storm spirit is insane considering they’re actually a condi class… Did I mention AoE burns, AoE blinds and AoE protections for the entire team? Or their insane amounts of condi damage? Or their unique spot as dodge king? Or their insane amounts of condi clear? These will continue to dictate the meta until something is changed. Their efficacy given their difficulty to play is simply laughable and makes a mockery of the entire PAX tourney.

A large number of classes have an increased or decreased rating based on how effective they are against necros and rangers because of their prevalence. A good example of this would be how mesmers have been dropped from being a necessity
to being a liability. When their role as a support/physical dps takes too much support to make their own support effective then they simply lost their viability.

It’s also worth mentioning that it seems like a lot of this game in high level play has become about comp over skill more so than any other period in its recent history. This worries me greatly for this game’s longevity and fun factor and points to a problem that’s too complicated to accurately pin-point. Many people would say it’s simply because this is a “condi” meta, but I believe it goes a bit deeper than that. Just because a lot of the blatantly overpowered classes have recently been condition classes does not necessarily mean that the problem of comp > skill has to do with condis.

FINALLY, if any class that requires any modicum of skill sees another nerf (engis, d/p thieves) then I will lose all hope in this games balance team. We have seen two incredibly easy to play and incredibly overpowered classes recently; the game’s reliance on skill is at an all-time low and it’s depressing to see in action.

Tier S:

= Ranger
= Necromancer

Tier A:

+ Thief
+ Engineer
= Guardian

Tier B:

+ Warrior
= Elementalist
- Mesmer

My list:
S:
Necromancer
Engineer

A:
Thief+
Ranger
Guard
Warrior (Somehow the current stun build works. I think alot of teams are just afraid to use it – And its a strong counter against necros)

B:
Elementalist

C:
Mesmers

Everyone agrees Necromancer need to be brought down. It’s ridicoulus how easy this class plays out. Engineer also on top: Some of you might argue that there were brought down with elixir R nerf, however there are still extremly strong. The only class which might win reliable is a SD thief. In addition the engineer is a toolbelt of CC. This is also why it is possible to carry whole groups with an engi. Alot of Former Ele’s moved to engi due to that fact. It is the only class which can repeatedly win 2vs1 or even 3vs1. The simply reason is he can prevent rezzing better than other classes. Just place a bomb and start to spam your bombs (I know it requires some skill) if this is not helpful than pop your panic button elite, which is a mini version of an engi with net turret (prevent stomps, immobilize for whole 3 sec), fire turret (500+ ticks) and 6,5 k heal. In addition you have your insanely rezz (which btw. ticks also after the icon dissapeared which is quite frustrating for the enemy ). In addition the engi has the 3 strongest combofield combined with alot of explosion finishers – He can stealth he can stack up his heal or just stacking might- so if for example the bombs are missing he still benefits from his “air” blast. Actually I think more classes should be like the engi because the skill cap is high and it offers alot to choose. However this is not the case and wont happen in short time so i think its time for some adjustment.
S/D Thiefs are the actual reason for lack of elementalist and mesmers in the game. I really would liked to see some minor adjustment so that the cannot evade and you cannot hit them before you are dead. I think some small changes regards to the initiative costs are enough.
Ranger – Spirit build is strong but since it offers not the CC like an engi have, or the aggressive DPS of necro, it is tier A and not tier S for me. Like for S/D thiefs some minor tweaks to the spirit and the class should be fixed. However this class has no big CC at all – which has to be considered – Also they cannot go for dps builds currently.
Guard – OK
Warriors – Stun warriors can be very annoying for low HP classes and also for engineers and necros these guys are very annoying due to some mindless stunbreaker changes in latest patch and thus shift to “No stun breaker meta”.

Elementalist: Low Health pool, 1 Trick pony (Burst or die) – Can be worthy for the team but often he gets killed by thief, necro or chased by engineer/warrior before he can pull out his strength.

Mesmers: No condi remove and no effective counter against S/D’s. Enough said.

HPLT.7132:

My list:
S:
Necromancer
Engineer

A:
Thief+
Ranger
Guard
Warrior (Somehow the current stun build works. I think alot of teams are just afraid to use it – And its a strong counter against necros)

B:
Elementalist

C:
Mesmers

Everyone agrees Necromancer need to be brought down. It’s ridicoulus how easy this class plays out. Engineer also on top: Some of you might argue that there were brought down with elixir R nerf, however there are still extremly strong. The only class which might win reliable is a SD thief. In addition the engineer is a toolbelt of CC. This is also which also why it is possible to carry whole groups with your engi. Alot of Former Ele’s moved to engi due to that fact. It is the only class which can repeatedly win 2vs1 or even 3vs1. The simply reason is he can prevent rezzing better than other classes. Just place a bomb and start to spam your bombs (I know it requires some skill) if this is not helpful than pop your panic button elite, which is a mini version of an engi with net turret (prevent stomps, immobilize for whole 3 sec), fire turret (500+ ticks) and 6,5 k heal. In addition you have your insanely rezz (which btw. ticks also after the icon dissapeared for the enemy which is quite frustrating). In addition the engi has the 3 strongest combofield combined with alot of explosion finishers – He can stealth he can stack up his heal or just stacking might- so if for example the bombs are missing he still benefits from his “air” blast. Actually I think more classes should be like the engi because the skill cap is high and it offers alot to choose. However this is not the case and wont happen in short time so i think its time for some adjustment.
S/D Thiefs are the actual reason for lack of elementalist and mesmers in the game. I really would liked to see some minor adjustment so that the cannot evade and you cannot hit them before you are dead. I think however some small changes regards to the initiative costs are necessary.
Ranger – Spirit build is strong but since it offers not the CC like an engi have, or the aggressive DPS of necro, it is tier A and not tier S for me. Like for S/D thiefs some minor tweaks to the spirit and the class should be fixed. However this class has no big CC at all – which has to be considered – Also they cannot go for dps builds currently.
Guard – OK
Warriors – Stun warriors can be very annoying for low HP classes and also for engineers and necros these guys are very annoying due to some mindless stunbreaker changes in latest patch and thus shift to “No stun breaker meta”.

Elementalist: Low Health pool, 1 Trick pony (Burst or die) – Can be worthy for the team but often he gets killed by thief, necro or chased by engineer/warrior before he can pull out his strength.

Mesmers: No condi remove and no effective counter against S/D’s. Enough said.

oh yea mesmers are DEEFFFFINITLLLY at the bottom… tell me again how they have the best team support/damage all in one bundle?

Epic.3950:

HPLT.7132:

My list:
S:
Necromancer
Engineer

A:
Thief+
Ranger
Guard
Warrior (Somehow the current stun build works. I think alot of teams are just afraid to use it – And its a strong counter against necros)

B:
Elementalist

C:
Mesmers

Everyone agrees Necromancer need to be brought down. It’s ridicoulus how easy this class plays out. Engineer also on top: Some of you might argue that there were brought down with elixir R nerf, however there are still extremly strong. The only class which might win reliable is a SD thief. In addition the engineer is a toolbelt of CC. This is also which also why it is possible to carry whole groups with your engi. Alot of Former Ele’s moved to engi due to that fact. It is the only class which can repeatedly win 2vs1 or even 3vs1. The simply reason is he can prevent rezzing better than other classes. Just place a bomb and start to spam your bombs (I know it requires some skill) if this is not helpful than pop your panic button elite, which is a mini version of an engi with net turret (prevent stomps, immobilize for whole 3 sec), fire turret (500+ ticks) and 6,5 k heal. In addition you have your insanely rezz (which btw. ticks also after the icon dissapeared for the enemy which is quite frustrating). In addition the engi has the 3 strongest combofield combined with alot of explosion finishers – He can stealth he can stack up his heal or just stacking might- so if for example the bombs are missing he still benefits from his “air” blast. Actually I think more classes should be like the engi because the skill cap is high and it offers alot to choose. However this is not the case and wont happen in short time so i think its time for some adjustment.
S/D Thiefs are the actual reason for lack of elementalist and mesmers in the game. I really would liked to see some minor adjustment so that the cannot evade and you cannot hit them before you are dead. I think however some small changes regards to the initiative costs are necessary.
Ranger – Spirit build is strong but since it offers not the CC like an engi have, or the aggressive DPS of necro, it is tier A and not tier S for me. Like for S/D thiefs some minor tweaks to the spirit and the class should be fixed. However this class has no big CC at all – which has to be considered – Also they cannot go for dps builds currently.
Guard – OK
Warriors – Stun warriors can be very annoying for low HP classes and also for engineers and necros these guys are very annoying due to some mindless stunbreaker changes in latest patch and thus shift to “No stun breaker meta”.

Elementalist: Low Health pool, 1 Trick pony (Burst or die) – Can be worthy for the team but often he gets killed by thief, necro or chased by engineer/warrior before he can pull out his strength.

Mesmers: No condi remove and no effective counter against S/D’s. Enough said.

oh yea mesmers are DEEFFFFINITLLLY at the bottom… tell me again how they have the best team support/damage all in one bundle?

And how many teams in PAX had a mesmer? Hmmm yah that’s right. ZERO

jportell.2197:

Epic.3950:

HPLT.7132:

My list:
S:
Necromancer
Engineer

A:
Thief+
Ranger
Guard
Warrior (Somehow the current stun build works. I think alot of teams are just afraid to use it – And its a strong counter against necros)

B:
Elementalist

C:
Mesmers

Everyone agrees Necromancer need to be brought down. It’s ridicoulus how easy this class plays out. Engineer also on top: Some of you might argue that there were brought down with elixir R nerf, however there are still extremly strong. The only class which might win reliable is a SD thief. In addition the engineer is a toolbelt of CC. This is also which also why it is possible to carry whole groups with your engi. Alot of Former Ele’s moved to engi due to that fact. It is the only class which can repeatedly win 2vs1 or even 3vs1. The simply reason is he can prevent rezzing better than other classes. Just place a bomb and start to spam your bombs (I know it requires some skill) if this is not helpful than pop your panic button elite, which is a mini version of an engi with net turret (prevent stomps, immobilize for whole 3 sec), fire turret (500+ ticks) and 6,5 k heal. In addition you have your insanely rezz (which btw. ticks also after the icon dissapeared for the enemy which is quite frustrating). In addition the engi has the 3 strongest combofield combined with alot of explosion finishers – He can stealth he can stack up his heal or just stacking might- so if for example the bombs are missing he still benefits from his “air” blast. Actually I think more classes should be like the engi because the skill cap is high and it offers alot to choose. However this is not the case and wont happen in short time so i think its time for some adjustment.
S/D Thiefs are the actual reason for lack of elementalist and mesmers in the game. I really would liked to see some minor adjustment so that the cannot evade and you cannot hit them before you are dead. I think however some small changes regards to the initiative costs are necessary.
Ranger – Spirit build is strong but since it offers not the CC like an engi have, or the aggressive DPS of necro, it is tier A and not tier S for me. Like for S/D thiefs some minor tweaks to the spirit and the class should be fixed. However this class has no big CC at all – which has to be considered – Also they cannot go for dps builds currently.
Guard – OK
Warriors – Stun warriors can be very annoying for low HP classes and also for engineers and necros these guys are very annoying due to some mindless stunbreaker changes in latest patch and thus shift to “No stun breaker meta”.

Elementalist: Low Health pool, 1 Trick pony (Burst or die) – Can be worthy for the team but often he gets killed by thief, necro or chased by engineer/warrior before he can pull out his strength.

Mesmers: No condi remove and no effective counter against S/D’s. Enough said.

oh yea mesmers are DEEFFFFINITLLLY at the bottom… tell me again how they have the best team support/damage all in one bundle?

And how many teams in PAX had a mesmer? Hmmm yah that’s right. ZERO

your signature says bunker mesmer. thats probably why you think they are bad. obviously no idea how to play one. btw the torch doesnt work if you are bunkering down
saying PAX teams didnt have a mesmer therefore they suck is like saying every champion in league that wasnt used in a single tourney is horrible. There are hundreds of reasons not to run a mesmer, them being underpowered is not one of them. If a team wanted to run a warrior because they came up with this insane comp that actually called for one (as crazy as it seems) would that make mesmers worse than warriors? no you are just a bandwagon who is incapable of strategy. (not to mention mesmers perfectly counter the counter meta stunlock builds that keep coming up)

Epic.3950:

oh yea mesmers are DEEFFFFINITLLLY at the bottom… tell me again how they have the best team support/damage all in one bundle?

Mesmer will come back after they fixed S/D and Thief. However currently they are not viable because they get snowballed very hard. It not that Mesmer isnt strong but the class is very susceptible to the 2 mentioned classes (probably also engi, warrior, ranger, ele). Even before the meta change mesmer wasnt picked for his 1vs1 capability but just for his utlities.

Epic.3950:

jportell.2197:

Epic.3950:

oh yea mesmers are DEEFFFFINITLLLY at the bottom… tell me again how they have the best team support/damage all in one bundle?

And how many teams in PAX had a mesmer? Hmmm yah that’s right. ZERO

your signature says bunker mesmer. thats probably why you think they are bad. obviously no idea how to play one. btw the torch doesnt work if you are bunkering down
saying PAX teams didnt have a mesmer therefore they suck is like saying every champion in league that wasnt used in a single tourney is horrible. There are hundreds of reasons not to run a mesmer, them being underpowered is not one of them. If a team wanted to run a warrior because they came up with this insane comp that actually called for one (as crazy as it seems) would that make mesmers worse than warriors? no you are just a bandwagon who is incapable of strategy. (not to mention mesmers perfectly counter the counter meta stunlock builds that keep coming up)

warrior stunlock>mesmer stunlock. 3s AOE stun on a 7s cooldown. You tell me what is better when compared to mesmers generally single target stuns. Also my signature saying bunker mesmer is nothing to do with mesmers underpoweredness and torch is an amazing defensive weapon. And before condi spam became the meta that bunker mesmer could keep 3 people on a point trying to kill me. Clearly you don’t understand how other builds can bunker. If you are keeping 3+ people on a point trying to kill you then you are doing something for your team.

I played all mesmer builds from shatter to phantasm to confusion and condition and even the bunker build that I made, and tbh no mesmer build is viable in this meta. Not interrupt, not shatter, and not bunker. I am most def not a bandwagon mesmer it has been my main since november until recently and mesmer has amazing group utility in other parts of the game. However right now it is terrible because there isn’t anything a mesmer can do that another class can’t do better.

group healing>Guards, Engis, Eles
AOE condi> Necros, Engis, warriors (yah warriors)
Bunkering>guardians, engis, eles, rangers
Burst>S/D thieves, Warriors, SD engis, SD eles.
Group Support>rangers, guardians, Engis
Quick Resses> Rangers, Engis, Necros
Stealth>smoke field+blast finisher (oh yeah mesmer has one blast finisher on a longer cooldown than any other blast finisher for other classes)
AOE Condi Clear>Necros, Eles, Guards (shattered conditions is terribly unreliable not to mention in a tree that has nothing to do with shattering illusions and everything to do with keeping them alive)

Edit: and when all teams in both NA and EU pax prelims had no mesmer you still think that isn’t a huge red flag as to the condition of this class?

Tier S
Spirit Ranger
Thief

Tier A
Necromancer
Guardians

Tier B
Elementalists
Engineers

Tier C
Warriors
Mesmers

@Ace.
Just take a look at the votes
70% of people answering rate mesmer below B tier..
Mammoth has his list flipped because of the urgency of the mesmer problem.

Mesmer % in tournaments has dropped Significantly
Before it was 1 per team now it’s one per ten.
No Mesmers in PAX;

If you think Mesmers are the best group utility/DPS wrapped into one package, and no one is running them in the actual competitive scene you’re delusional, or all those teams are full of baddies, and you should be crowned winner here and now.

Darnis.4056:

Just take a look at the votes
70% of people answering rate mesmer below B tier..
Mammoth has his list flipped because of the urgency of the mesmer problem.

Mesmer % in tournaments has dropped Significantly
Before it was 1 per team now it’s one per ten.
No Mesmers in PAX;

If you think Mesmers are the best group utility/DPS wrapped into one package, and no one is running them in the actual competitive scene you’re delusional, or all those teams are full of baddies, and you should be crowned winner here and now.

No way, mesmers and warriors dominate so hard in this meta, just look at the pax qualifier results. The final match had 4 mesmers and 6 warriors right?

I just feel sorry for guardians, they’ll never be viable in any meta without a complete overhaul. Sure they can do amazing damage with greatsword, but their survivability is way too low. 10k health wtf anet.

Narcarsis.5739:

I think people overrate S/D thief.

just putting it out there ( i know this thread is not meant for discussion).

they’re not ovverating it, S/D thieves are A+ tier in THIS meta.

Lot of condi cleansing, great sustained damage, great healing capabilities, able to go in & out of combat, decent burst, AoE stealth.

Especially the first one.

Even more, they’re a lot stronger than other thief builds ( due to reason 1) and are able to deal with them pretty easily ( just swap to shortbow and spam disabling shot, it’s sad how this is accurate).

It’s superior to any other thief build, it’s strong 1vs1, it’s a good counter to current dominant classes ( one of the few classes able to 1vs1 a spirit ranger, necro and engi).

They’re not overrating it, S/D thieves are very strong, and very easy to play ( the only thing you REALLY need to learn is positioning, but with older D/P builds you also had to know how to play).

I’m an S/D thief ( from beta, with a small past as a D/P thief due to to november nerfs) and i’m saying this.

We need buffs and nerfs regarding the whole ini ssytem and sub-par skills, otherwise S/D will be the one and only build to rule them all for a long time.

Yea I mean If I had to list the five best comps of all time it’d be
5 mesmers
4 mesmers 1 warrior
5 mesmers
and 3 mesmers 2 warriors.

Mesmers right now are where warlocks were before skillcoil…
The mushrooms in the rock paper scissors triangle.

Darnis.4056:

Yea I mean If I had to list the five best comps of all time it’d be
5 mesmers
4 mesmers 1 warrior
5 mesmers
and 3 mesmers 2 warriors.

Mesmers right now are where warlocks were before skillcoil…
The mushrooms in the rock paper scissors triangle.

I like 3 warriors 2 mesmers for the…. the uh… it’s really good anyway.

Oh I got it, the focus pull chains into 100b spam! So pro. Plus shatters are just OP against ranger spirits, it’s definitely the countercomp to the current meta. BRB learning how to 100b thin air. Positioning is everything!

Guys.

Please keep it focused on the Tier list.

Troll comments or Sarcasm aren’t conducive to a decent conversation.

I’ll be updating the list this Saturday. All responses starting from the EU Pax qualifier will be used in the update.

>Lot of condi cleansing,
Thats some kittening kitten.

My point of view as ele in tPvP

Team Fights only ( my point of view in 1vs1 is rather…different)

S tier
-Necromancer ( walking nuclear reactor )
-Engineer ( fart conditions , most OP elite in the universe ..in all dimensions )

A tier
-Guardian ( hope you like soccer..‘cause you’ll be the ball )
-Spirit Ranger ( am I playing Pokemon stadium ? )
-Sword/dagger thief ( LoL Anet ..just lol )

B Tier
- Mesmer ( do you like birds..what about Moa?..that’s all I ask -_-)
- S/D Elementalist ( kamikaze caster…plays for the lol)
- Stun-lock Warrior (he tries his best..to be a nuisance, but he dies quite elegantly )

C Tier
-D/D thief ( lmao)
-Ranger ( are you having a laugh bro ? )
-Bunker ele ( hmm…what about you go play Monopoly?)
-100b Warrior ( did you buy the game yesterday? )

Ostricheggs.3742:

Near the skill cap and in high level tourneys:

Tier S
Spirit rangers

Tier A
Engis
Guardians
Necros
Warriors
Thieves
Eles

Tier B
Mesmers

I don’t think the meta has properly shifted away from necros because people finally got a taste of condis via an easy to play class. Engineers are a decent bit better than necromancers but require FAR more skill to play. People have latched on to necros because they were incredibly overpowered a couple weeks back and they have a lot of synergy with spirit rangers despite filling the same role an engineer does. However, a large majority of players will continue to play necros because it’s a more effective option for them. It’s also far tankier with plague form, protection and large amounts of condi clear. Necros are also pretty effective against spirit rangers with their CC and condi clear/control.

Alas, spirit rangers will continue to dominate the meta and reign supreme until we see some changes. They’re stupid easy to play, their elite is simply broken in its efficacy and their on-point physical DPS from storm spirit is insane considering they’re actually a condi class… Did I mention AoE burns, AoE blinds and AoE protections for the entire team? Or their insane amounts of condi damage? Or their unique spot as dodge king? Or their insane amounts of condi clear? These will continue to dictate the meta until something is changed. Their efficacy given their difficulty to play is simply laughable and makes a mockery of the entire PAX tourney.

A large number of classes have an increased or decreased rating based on how effective they are against necros and rangers because of their prevalence. A good example of this would be how mesmers have been dropped from being a necessity
to being a liability. When their role as a support/physical dps takes too much support to make their own support effective then they simply lost their viability.

It’s also worth mentioning that it seems like a lot of this game in high level play has become about comp over skill more so than any other period in its recent history. This worries me greatly for this game’s longevity and fun factor and points to a problem that’s too complicated to accurately pin-point. Many people would say it’s simply because this is a “condi” meta, but I believe it goes a bit deeper than that. Just because a lot of the blatantly overpowered classes have recently been condition classes does not necessarily mean that the problem of comp > skill has to do with condis.

FINALLY, if any class that requires any modicum of skill sees another nerf (engis, d/p thieves) then I will lose all hope in this games balance team. We have seen two incredibly easy to play and incredibly overpowered classes recently; the game’s reliance on skill is at an all-time low and it’s depressing to see in action.

Very well said. If only 10% of the people on the forums were able to contribute with this level of understanding.

Right now there is a HUGE disparity in skill/experience between tiers of players due to so many hardcore players continuing to quit the game over the last 10 months or so. I have an inclination there was a purposeful attempt to buff lower skill classes and nerf high skill/high reward classes to tighten the spectrum of skill/experience between players in hopes of making the game more “competitive”. In the last 6 months on NA there has been a trend of 1 or 2 teams completely demolishing everyone they play because of this. That’s not good for the game or the players. In a way buffing low skill classes MAY have a positive impact on this issue. However, I really hope they didn’t buff those classes with that in mind as I don’t believe that will solve the root of the issue and this has introduced quite a few new issues.

Mammoth.1975:

I just feel sorry for guardians, they’ll never be viable in any meta without a complete overhaul. Sure they can do amazing damage with greatsword, but their survivability is way too low. 10k health wtf anet.

Can’t tell if trolling…

Defektive.7283:

Guys.

Please keep it focused on the Tier list.

Troll comments or Sarcasm aren’t conducive to a decent conversation.

---

I’ll be updating the list this Saturday. All responses starting from the EU Pax qualifier will be used in the update.

Personally I don’t think opinion based ‘tier lists’ are very productive anyway, for a few reasons. There are people who genuinely think the things I posted are true, this forum is generally pretty bad at the game, even the ones who are good will share their opinion before making serious attempts at counterplay, and everyone else just bandwagons them. Two decent players posting mesmers are OP will start to skew your results until they show that 75% of people think mesmers are tier S+++, and a few of them have repeatedly shown they won’t hesitate to post that kind of thing if mesmers are effective against their current team comp. They fluff it out with some buzzword jargon and pretend they’re worried about the health of the meta so it sounds a bit more rational than the usual whines of course. The arguments get circular, it’s just an echo chamber.

Tier lists are typically handled by win percentages against the field, either overall in the case of mobas, or at high level tourneys in the case of fighting games. We don’t have access to that information though, so this is all we can do I guess. I’ll stop trolling :P

Tier S:
Spirit Ranger
Necromancer

Tier A
S/D Thief
Engineer
Guardian
Elementalist
Mesmer

Tier B:
Warrior

I hate to keep beating this dead horse but with the current (condi) meta, it’s quite a downfall from how things used to be. One of the issues are the ease of condi applications with the ability to be relatively tanky. This is more prevalent in Necromancers vs. other professions because at least with Engineer and Ranger, there takes a bit more skill to apply said condi’s(nades being thrown, travel time with bullets, obviousness of ranger traps when thrown). Necromancers seem to fall away from this category while being able to mitigate significant damage through DS, prot and plague. At least with the former meta (physical) it required SIGNIFICANT more skill to land damage because of the obviousness of the animations.

We move onto Spirit rangers which to me, require the least amount of skill and gain significant benefit. No other AI in this game can support a group better than spirits. Being the masters of dodge, decent prot uptime, tankiness and decent condition damage application(through spirits) with very little skill involved astonishes me.

While other issues need to be addressed in terms of balance, these seem to be obvious and has a higher impact on the meta. Warriors when utilizing stuns and team support(elite banner) will probably move up to tier A.

Word up Ostrich!

I guess we do have access to the win percentages of each class at the pax qualifiers, if anyone cares enough to compile it, which I doubt, because this isn’t really about the state of the meta. 60 bo3 matches + 2 bo5 with 10 players in each is a pretty small sample size, but it’s better than this, which is 16 pages of opinion utterly devoid of evidence. It’s also the highest level of competition we have, despite certain things.

Ostricheggs.3742:

Near the skill cap and in high level tourneys:

Tier S
Spirit rangers

Tier A
Engis
Guardians
Necros
Warriors
Thieves
Eles

Tier B
Mesmers

I don’t think the meta has properly shifted away from necros because people finally got a taste of condis via an easy to play class. Engineers are a decent bit better than necromancers but require FAR more skill to play. People have latched on to necros because they were incredibly overpowered a couple weeks back and they have a lot of synergy with spirit rangers despite filling the same role an engineer does. However, a large majority of players will continue to play necros because it’s a more effective option for them. It’s also far tankier with plague form, protection and large amounts of condi clear. Necros are also pretty effective against spirit rangers with their CC and condi clear/control.

Alas, spirit rangers will continue to dominate the meta and reign supreme until we see some changes. They’re stupid easy to play, their elite is simply broken in its efficacy and their on-point physical DPS from storm spirit is insane considering they’re actually a condi class… Did I mention AoE burns, AoE blinds and AoE protections for the entire team? Or their insane amounts of condi damage? Or their unique spot as dodge king? Or their insane amounts of condi clear? These will continue to dictate the meta until something is changed. Their efficacy given their difficulty to play is simply laughable and makes a mockery of the entire PAX tourney.

A large number of classes have an increased or decreased rating based on how effective they are against necros and rangers because of their prevalence. A good example of this would be how mesmers have been dropped from being a necessity
to being a liability. When their role as a support/physical dps takes too much support to make their own support effective then they simply lost their viability.

It’s also worth mentioning that it seems like a lot of this game in high level play has become about comp over skill more so than any other period in its recent history. This worries me greatly for this game’s longevity and fun factor and points to a problem that’s too complicated to accurately pin-point. Many people would say it’s simply because this is a “condi” meta, but I believe it goes a bit deeper than that. Just because a lot of the blatantly overpowered classes have recently been condition classes does not necessarily mean that the problem of comp > skill has to do with condis.

FINALLY, if any class that requires any modicum of skill sees another nerf (engis, d/p thieves) then I will lose all hope in this games balance team. We have seen two incredibly easy to play and incredibly overpowered classes recently; the game’s reliance on skill is at an all-time low and it’s depressing to see in action.

As a necromancer, I agree with all of this, although I’d put thieves above warriors in a tier ranking.

Sweet balance patch…Almost everyone complain and what is Arenanet doing -> /ignore.
Yeah PAX is a good reason to stop balancing because its better to play with broken classes instead of balanced ones in final.
I just dont get it…

Btw Ostrichegg: You mean "high level tournament in "NA""

When will PAX end? I’m sure the patch after it will bring several balancing changes that are currently on hold.

Dont know around 31st of august so atleast 1 patch without any changes. But seriously you dont stop to balance because of a tournament. Teams have to adapt to the game and not the game has to adapt to shedules of teams.

LoBo.1724:

Random sPvP kids in this thread are putting Warrior over Mesmer.

BHahahahahahahhah

Random PvE guy doesn’t know who one of the best players in NA is….

Ya when ppl say Spirit Ranger is easy to counter, even the people who competed in the tournaments they must not realize what people are trying to do to them when they fight them.

1v1 you can get a stunlock warrior to wipe the floor with them, but you necessarily are going to have to try to do that with other people attacking you as well. It’s not like their teammates are gonna just wait while you kill their spirit ranger.

The problem with the build is that it’s so low maintenance and low risk and returns more than two entire classes that actually require skill to play – Ele and Mesmer.

IoL and Portal support is not summon and go. Ele has to know what 20 different skills are and use them at the right time in combination with their utilities. Engi kits also have a similar effect.

Ranger just needs an overhaul as a class. The package they bring is so low skill it’s embarrassing

A few minor tweeks to my list after PAX and playing for the last 2 weeks.

S
+ Necro
= Ranger
- Thief

A
+ Engi
= Guardian
= Mesmer (S if they’re not facing condi spam, b if they are)

B
+ Warrior
- Ele

Thanks for that ostrich. I agree with all you said (except thieves are above wars IMO).

I think they should tweak necros and spirit rangers before the pax tourney. I doubt TC or SYNC would whine about it. Even caed said his teammates would much rather be playing more engaging classes (not saying he agrees they should tweak before pax). Seriously, it’s bad rep. for competitive gw2when classes like spirit rangers dominate the HIGH END meta =\

Spirit Rangers need a huge tone down, necros need just a couple more changes to be perfect, condis in general just need a slight tone down. Right now it’s almost unbearable

S Tier
Spirit Ranger
Necromancer

A Tier
Engineer
Thief
Guardian

B Tier:
Ele -
Warrior -
Mesmer -

S Tier
-

A Tier
Engineer =
Thief =
Guardian =
Necro +
Ranger =
B Tier:
Ele -
Warrior =
Mesmer -

fadeaway.2807:

Tier S
+ Thief
Tier A
+ Ranger
+ Necro
= Engineer
= Elementarist
= Guardian
Tier B
+ Mesmer
Tier C
- Warrior

Good list, I agree with it.

There is significant difference between whats effective in hotjoin and in tournies. People should specify which game mode they are referring to.

Batmang.5421:

There is significant difference between whats effective in hotjoin and in tournies. People should specify which game mode they are playing.

Thief is probably the best class in the game overall because they excell at all levels of pvp from hotjoin, to 1on1 duels, to tournament. Mesmers are good 1on1 (except against good thieves) and in hotjoin, but terrible in tournaments due to conditions and ofcourse s/d thieves. Mesmer is the most volatile class in pvp, ranging from very strong to very poor. Meanwhile thief is the most consistant, always being a top tier class.

Of particular note is that both of these classes have stealth, evades, and invulnerability frames. Thief has far more of all of the above, including mobility, which is why it is clearly a better class than mesmer.

They need to bring back GW1’s usage of conditions.

Players must be smart on when they apply the, and when they remove them, not just spam away and run around while the conditions do their thing.

The current rate condition spam not only dumbs down the game, but also makes inviable direct damage builds compared to DPS condition spam ones.

S
BURNING
Rangers
Necros

A
All other professions

MithranArkanere.8957:

They need to bring back GW1’s usage of conditions.

Players must be smart on when they apply the, and when they remove them, not just spam away and run around while the conditions do their thing.

The current rate condition spam not only dumbs down the game, but also makes inviable direct damage builds compared to DPS condition spam ones.

The whole boon/condi system should be reworked. They are far too accessible.

Scryar.2954:

So here we go:

S-Tier:
+Necro

A-Tier:
+Ranger (Spirit)
=Engineer
=Thief (S/D)
=Guardian

B-Tier
+Ele
+Warrior
+Mesmer

The only balanced class in my opininion is the guardian. All above him are a bit (necro much more) over the top. Warrior got a nice buff and are close to be balanced. Mesmers suffer from the strenght of condition damage and lack of condi removal and eles were overnerfed during the last months.

LOLOLOLOLOL

Guardian is so “balanced” every team needs one.

Zenith.7301:

LOLOLOLOLOL

Guardian is so “balanced” every team needs one.

Guardian is the only class that can control access to a point and actively defend their teammates, but having a unique (and mandatory) skillset doesn’t make them overpowered. Other classes should get some of guardian’s toys as opposed to taking them away from or weakening guards.