Guild Wars 2

skill floor- level to achieve at which you can play the class at a competent level.
example low skill floor is something that is easy to pick up and do alright with out of the box.

skill ceiling- level to achieve which is considered the highest level or top of play.
example is maximizing the capabilities of something seeming rather simple at first.

This has bothered me the longest time that people use these incorrectly.

low skill floor does not imply low skill ceiling. example is warrior.
high skill floor does not imply high skill ceiling. do not have class example because i do not think any class is limited

As another example, engineers have a low skill floor, but a high skill ceiling. The two aren’t dependent on each other.

Larynx.2453:

As another example, engineers have a low skill floor, but a high skill ceiling. The two aren’t dependent on each other.

Interesting you say that. I did not think people considered engi easy to pick up initially.

I would say, relatively speaking, warrior has a lowest skill ceiling out of all the classes.

Apart from the dodging, positioning and using cooldowns that every class has, the warrior’s skills and unique mechanics don’t really give you much freedom to exhibit player skill.

Ya

low skill floor: thief, but they also have a high skill ceiling.

high skill floor: elementalist, I’d say this is the most accurate example for not-so-high skill ceiling. Basically once you learn how to use elementalist (once you overcome the high skill floor) you are golden. There’s little to improve once you reach that point (doesn’t mean it’s easy to get there).

Razor.6392:

high skill floor: elementalist, I’d say this is the most accurate example for not-so-high skill ceiling. Basically once you learn how to use elementalist (once you overcome the high skill floor) you are golden. There’s little to improve once you reach that point (doesn’t mean it’s easy to get there).

But would you say the ele has a lower skill ceiling than a warrior? Personally as a player of both I feel that the warrior’s skill ceiling is almost lower than the ele’s skill floor.

Rieselle.5079:

Razor.6392:

high skill floor: elementalist, I’d say this is the most accurate example for not-so-high skill ceiling. Basically once you learn how to use elementalist (once you overcome the high skill floor) you are golden. There’s little to improve once you reach that point (doesn’t mean it’s easy to get there).

But would you say the ele has a lower skill ceiling than a warrior? Personally as a player of both I feel that the warrior’s skill ceiling is almost lower than the ele’s skill floor.

I would agree and disagree…

I think Ele has a high skill floor and cieling.. I think most people see it as having a low cieling because once you breech the floor threshold there really isnt much of a need to learn to be better.. but there are a few out there that are emaculate at their class and it shows.. i would say Ele def has a high cieling because i def notice the players that take the time to get there.
I would say that the mesmer falls in this same catagory and thats why they get so much hate.

The Warrior on the other hand though, i would have to agree that it is a low floor and cieling. It is a fun class dont get me wrong, but its basicly like a tutorial class for this game imo. Really not much learning curve at all if you have played a melee class in any game before and the abilities are all very standard and static. they have alot of good relevant speccs, but at the same time all the speccs you are really just waiting on CDs to burst with or just rotating CDs for support.. Not really any type of skill synergy to finesse with the class and that is where the cielings come from is once you learn abilities, learning how to play with the “best finesse” so it becomes an art and not a button smash.

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

Larynx.2453:

As another example, engineers have a low skill floor, but a high skill ceiling. The two aren’t dependent on each other.

Interesting you say that. I did not think people considered engi easy to pick up initially.

The devs’ original intention was for engies’ non-kit builds to be just as effective as the kit builds, but due to bugs with our main weapon sets that didn’t work out as intended. There are a few excellent players doing things like rifle/elixirs or pistols/turrets, but those can hardly be held as examples of “starter builds.”

Rieselle.5079:

Razor.6392:

high skill floor: elementalist, I’d say this is the most accurate example for not-so-high skill ceiling. Basically once you learn how to use elementalist (once you overcome the high skill floor) you are golden. There’s little to improve once you reach that point (doesn’t mean it’s easy to get there).

But would you say the ele has a lower skill ceiling than a warrior? Personally as a player of both I feel that the warrior’s skill ceiling is almost lower than the ele’s skill floor.

I wouldn’t compare them individually.

I think if you think melee is low skill ceiling, then you do not understand the difficulty it has in most battles. Especially if you are running dual melee sets. Granted dodging positioning are important as mentioned above, but the class is only limited by its player base. Because most wars are running the same build it “appears” to have maxed out at a ceiling. However, if you break down that group using the build and examine each of the players, you will realize that there is a big disparity in how some people utilize 100blades build for example.

my tldr is build stagnation has given the appearance of a low skill ceiling.

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

I think if you think melee is low skill ceiling, then you do not understand the difficulty it has in most battles. Especially if you are running dual melee sets. Granted dodging positioning are important as mentioned above, but the class is only limited by its player base. Because most wars are running the same build it “appears” to have maxed out at a ceiling. However, if you break down that group using the build and examine each of the players, you will realize that there is a big disparity in how some people utilize 100blades build for example.

my tldr is build stagnation has given the appearance of a low skill ceiling.

melee difficulty and warrior skill capability are two completly different discussions…

any warrior that plays a 100blades build i pretty much exclude from any discussion of skill. not that is is a bad specc, but it doesnt take any skill at all to play and thats why you see so many of them.
A skilled player realizes that you get SOOOOOO much more from other speccs with a warrior.

i would say a warrior has more viable builds than any other class in the game, but they are also the easiest builds to play.

i personally think warriors have a high skill ceiling.

My list on classes skill floor ceiling Combos
(Skill Floor in Order from Lowest to Highest):
1. Thief
2. Guard (any spec)
3. Warrior
4. Necro
5. Ranger
6. Mesmer
7. Ele
8. Engi

Skill Ceiling
1. Thief
2. Warrior
3. Guard
4. Ele (sorry once you get attunement swap down there isn’t much more that goes into it)
5. Necro
6. Ranger (Dat amazing pet management is unbeatable)
7. Mesmer (Learning the class mechanics is great… Knowing how to use them ALL to your advantage. Most never get here.)
8. Engi (By far the hardest pvp class to master but oh man can they handle business)

well skillfloor doesnt matter that much at high end pvp..
But for skill ceiling if you count it as playing closely to the perfect way you could while also counting team fight reactions at the situation then id say all classes are high enough.
Now based on the individual class mechanic and cds to worry i would guess that
warrior has the lowest ceiling while ele/engie have the highest since there is more room for errors and then mesm and necro.
Though i have to say that "op"ness of a class does not mess up with the ceiling.It just increases your efficiency. A very strong class could still have the highest ceiling(it just makes you god when you get there :P )

jportell.2197:

My list on classes skill floor ceiling Combos
(Skill Floor in Order from Lowest to Highest):
1. Thief
2. Guard (any spec)
3. Warrior
4. Necro
5. Ranger
6. Mesmer
7. Ele
8. Engi

Skill Ceiling
1. Thief
2. Warrior
3. Guard
4. Ele (sorry once you get attunement swap down there isn’t much more that goes into it)
5. Necro
6. Ranger (Dat amazing pet management is unbeatable)
7. Mesmer (Learning the class mechanics is great… Knowing how to use them ALL to your advantage. Most never get here.)
8. Engi (By far the hardest pvp class to master but oh man can they handle business)

I disagree. The tricks you can pull off as a thief are several, and all of them involve close range combat while being a complete glass cannon.

Mesmer skill floor / ceiling are rather forgiving, for how much advantages that class has.

While skill floor can be measured between classes, skill ceiling can be limitless for any class dependent on the players active in competitve play. Even if you have mastered your class (regardless of how easy or hard it was to get there), your battles come down to mind games, creativity, team coordination, and counterplay. As long as those are everchanging, there is never a ‘max’ to skill level, and players will strive to outplay other players.

jportell.2197:

My list on classes skill floor ceiling Combos
(Skill Floor in Order from Lowest to Highest):
1. Thief
2. Guard (any spec)
3. Warrior
4. Necro
5. Ranger
6. Mesmer
7. Ele
8. Engi

Skill Ceiling
1. Thief
2. Warrior
3. Guard
4. Ele (sorry once you get attunement swap down there isn’t much more that goes into it)
5. Necro
6. Ranger (Dat amazing pet management is unbeatable)
7. Mesmer (Learning the class mechanics is great… Knowing how to use them ALL to your advantage. Most never get here.)
8. Engi (By far the hardest pvp class to master but oh man can they handle business)

If you think a thief is lowest in skill ceiling, I guess you don’t play enough high-tier tpvp. Spvp is filled with thieves, because they are easy to pick up at first and gib people, but once you get to a certain level of tpvp, it’s VERY hard to stay relevant in a team comp. Thieves are the only class that doesn’t have a true invulnerable cc, and have the lowest hp pool…all while we are pretty much forced to play glass cannon. Don’t even start talking about bleed thieves because at this point, they are irrelevant in high-tier tpvp. If you think it’s easy to survive as a glass cannon thief all while being a killing machine + help your team out…you haven’t played much of that level of tpvp. It’s very unforgiving to play a good thief in high-tier tpvp…it takes skill, awareness, reflex, and you really have to know when and when not to engage.

This is why I can count with 1 hand, how many good thieves there are in high-tier tpvp right now. Eles and rangers though, are another story.

But I guess your list suggests the typical mindset of thieves.

Amaterasu.6280:

jportell.2197:

My list on classes skill floor ceiling Combos
(Skill Floor in Order from Lowest to Highest):
1. Thief
2. Guard (any spec)
3. Warrior
4. Necro
5. Ranger
6. Mesmer
7. Ele
8. Engi

Skill Ceiling
1. Thief
2. Warrior
3. Guard
4. Ele (sorry once you get attunement swap down there isn’t much more that goes into it)
5. Necro
6. Ranger (Dat amazing pet management is unbeatable)
7. Mesmer (Learning the class mechanics is great… Knowing how to use them ALL to your advantage. Most never get here.)
8. Engi (By far the hardest pvp class to master but oh man can they handle business)

If you think a thief is lowest in skill ceiling, I guess you don’t play enough high-tier tpvp. Spvp is filled with thieves, because they are easy to pick up at first and gib people, but once you get to a certain level of tpvp, it’s VERY hard to stay relevant in a team comp. Thieves are the only class that doesn’t have a true invulnerable cc, and have the lowest hp pool…all while we are pretty much forced to play glass cannon. Don’t even start talking about bleed thieves because at this point, they are irrelevant in high-tier tpvp. If you think it’s easy to survive as a glass cannon thief all while being a killing machine + help your team out…you haven’t played much of that level of tpvp. It’s very unforgiving to play a good thief in high-tier tpvp…it takes skill, awareness, reflex, and you really have to know when and when not to engage.

This is why I can count with 1 hand, how many good thieves there are in high-tier tpvp right now. Eles and rangers though, are another story.

But I guess your list suggests the typical mindset of thieves.

Pretty much what I was going with there. And the main reason you don’t see many thieves high end is because stealth doesn’t allow you to register point capping… If another game mode were implemented you would see way more thieves… and then the gripes about thieves from the “high-end” people which I am not by any means (just got owned by Mufa the worlds greatest thief! LOL) but I know they would increase exponentially.

Maybe I should follow Defecktive and make a ceiling floor thread for ranking

Devve.1728:

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

I think if you think melee is low skill ceiling, then you do not understand the difficulty it has in most battles. Especially if you are running dual melee sets. Granted dodging positioning are important as mentioned above, but the class is only limited by its player base. Because most wars are running the same build it “appears” to have maxed out at a ceiling. However, if you break down that group using the build and examine each of the players, you will realize that there is a big disparity in how some people utilize 100blades build for example.

my tldr is build stagnation has given the appearance of a low skill ceiling.

melee difficulty and warrior skill capability are two completly different discussions…

any warrior that plays a 100blades build i pretty much exclude from any discussion of skill. not that is is a bad specc, but it doesnt take any skill at all to play and thats why you see so many of them.
A skilled player realizes that you get SOOOOOO much more from other speccs with a warrior.

i would say a warrior has more viable builds than any other class in the game, but they are also the easiest builds to play.

BTW, most thieves play backstab burst, mesmers shatter burst, guard bunker, ele d/d tank, etc etc. but does that detract away from the skill of the user?

I do not follow your argument that if you use 100 blades, then you are noob. And saying it does not require any skill, I can find you like 1billion posts that say otherwise because you can just dodge the stun and your free.

jportell.2197:

Amaterasu.6280:

jportell.2197:

My list on classes skill floor ceiling Combos
(Skill Floor in Order from Lowest to Highest):
1. Thief
2. Guard (any spec)
3. Warrior
4. Necro
5. Ranger
6. Mesmer
7. Ele
8. Engi

Skill Ceiling
1. Thief
2. Warrior
3. Guard
4. Ele (sorry once you get attunement swap down there isn’t much more that goes into it)
5. Necro
6. Ranger (Dat amazing pet management is unbeatable)
7. Mesmer (Learning the class mechanics is great… Knowing how to use them ALL to your advantage. Most never get here.)
8. Engi (By far the hardest pvp class to master but oh man can they handle business)

If you think a thief is lowest in skill ceiling, I guess you don’t play enough high-tier tpvp. Spvp is filled with thieves, because they are easy to pick up at first and gib people, but once you get to a certain level of tpvp, it’s VERY hard to stay relevant in a team comp. Thieves are the only class that doesn’t have a true invulnerable cc, and have the lowest hp pool…all while we are pretty much forced to play glass cannon. Don’t even start talking about bleed thieves because at this point, they are irrelevant in high-tier tpvp. If you think it’s easy to survive as a glass cannon thief all while being a killing machine + help your team out…you haven’t played much of that level of tpvp. It’s very unforgiving to play a good thief in high-tier tpvp…it takes skill, awareness, reflex, and you really have to know when and when not to engage.

This is why I can count with 1 hand, how many good thieves there are in high-tier tpvp right now. Eles and rangers though, are another story.

But I guess your list suggests the typical mindset of thieves.

Pretty much what I was going with there. And the main reason you don’t see many thieves high end is because stealth doesn’t allow you to register point capping… If another game mode were implemented you would see way more thieves… and then the gripes about thieves from the “high-end” people which I am not by any means (just got owned by Mufa the worlds greatest thief! LOL) but I know they would increase exponentially.

Actually, the stealth not being able to cap thing is not the reason. Stealth SHOULDN’T let you cap a point and that’s coming from me, a thief that strictly does tpvp and have 2000+ games. It would be unfair to cap with stealth.

The problem is the status of the current game and it’s unbalances, which forces a certain meta.

Here’s why:

You are almost bound to see 2x trap rangers or 2x eles in the current serious tpvp meta. Why?

1 – Because eles are the current god-class. There is no debating this, it is what it is, and that’s it.

2 – AOE dmg does just as much, if not more dmg than single target dps dmg…which thieves are kings of. This is a flaw…if AOE dmg can do the same amount of dmg but to multiple people, why would you want single target classes?

Granted a good thief + warrior is still very effective, the current meta just doesn’t call for that. It’s just much easier to run a cookie cutter comp like 2x eles or 2x rangers. There aren’t many good thieves in high-tier tpvp which proves that the skill ceiling on thieves is probably the hardest to achieve aside from warriors, but it’s just unfortunate that they aren’t getting put into meta builds because of the flaws of the current game mechanics.

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

Larynx.2453:

As another example, engineers have a low skill floor, but a high skill ceiling. The two aren’t dependent on each other.

Interesting you say that. I did not think people considered engi easy to pick up initially.

I didn’t imply that…

If something is a high skill floor, then it doesn’t take much skill to play at a competent level. Assuming we can quantify skill, then at the same skill level something that has a low skill floor will perform worse.

The best example I can give is frost mages from WoW. High skill floor, but high skill cap. Anyone and their grandmother can play a frost mage well, but it’s really difficult to play it to the absolute best it can be.

Engineer is probably a bad example since the meta is probably shifted by now, though.

Skill ceiling is interesting. I have deep respect for good warriors and don’t think the fact that they’re relatively simple to pick up means that they don’t have a “skill ceiling” just as high as any other profession. Also, just the fact that most thieves run essentially the same build doesn’t necessarily mean they don’t have a high skill ceiling. The same can be said for eles.

In the case of engineer, though—part of the high skill cap is that most engineer players create their own builds. We do have one kind of standardized burst build but not many players actually use that. So I think that can raise the skill ceiling slightly. Not that a 10/30/30 ele doesn’t have a high skill ceiling, but there’s an added element if your profession doesn’t have a standard to draw from. You have to compensate for the weaknesses you know good and well are in the build you created. Kind of fun, actually.

^This is true with the first paragraph.

Many people run the same / similar build…but just because you can run a build, it doesn’t make you automatically good at that class. This is the case with spvp hotjoins…there are a million thieves and eles nowadays…but how many actually know how to use the class properly and in a smart way outside than just gibbing someone with the same buttons over and over?

The high bar on skill level comes with the individual player…

Not saying this is the most complicated game, but there is certainly enough there to differentiate the great from mediocre players.

Lists like this are pointless because there’s no way to know the difference between each rank. Simply ordering the classes in terms of ceiling/floor doesn’t tell us anything without knowing how large of a gap there is in-between each class/rank. For example, lets assume a thief has the lowest skill floor and engineer has the highest. How much harder is the engineer? Twice as hard? Ten times as hard? You need another number to use as a comparison. If i was to add a numerical rank out of 100 for each class, then we could get a better idea of the gap between each rank. For example, i could say a thief has a skill-floor of 40 and an engineer has a skill-floor of 100. Now we know that the engineer is roughly 2.5 times as hard to pick-up. We absolutely need a number like this to compare the classes rather than simply ordering them.

My list for skill-floor (lower is easier):
40 – Thief
50 – Warrior
60 – Ranger
70 – Guardian
80- Necromancer
85 – Mesmer
90- Elementalist
100 – Engineer

For skill-ceiling (higher is harder):
100 – Engineer
90 – Thief
85 – Mesmer
80 – Necromancer
75 – Elementalist
65 – Ranger
65 – Guardian
60 – Warrior

Ranking the classes like this gives a lot more information than just ranking them in order.

Amaterasu.6280:

jportell.2197:

Amaterasu.6280:

jportell.2197:

My list on classes skill floor ceiling Combos
(Skill Floor in Order from Lowest to Highest):
1. Thief
2. Guard (any spec)
3. Warrior
4. Necro
5. Ranger
6. Mesmer
7. Ele
8. Engi

Skill Ceiling
1. Thief
2. Warrior
3. Guard
4. Ele (sorry once you get attunement swap down there isn’t much more that goes into it)
5. Necro
6. Ranger (Dat amazing pet management is unbeatable)
7. Mesmer (Learning the class mechanics is great… Knowing how to use them ALL to your advantage. Most never get here.)
8. Engi (By far the hardest pvp class to master but oh man can they handle business)

If you think a thief is lowest in skill ceiling, I guess you don’t play enough high-tier tpvp. Spvp is filled with thieves, because they are easy to pick up at first and gib people, but once you get to a certain level of tpvp, it’s VERY hard to stay relevant in a team comp. Thieves are the only class that doesn’t have a true invulnerable cc, and have the lowest hp pool…all while we are pretty much forced to play glass cannon. Don’t even start talking about bleed thieves because at this point, they are irrelevant in high-tier tpvp. If you think it’s easy to survive as a glass cannon thief all while being a killing machine + help your team out…you haven’t played much of that level of tpvp. It’s very unforgiving to play a good thief in high-tier tpvp…it takes skill, awareness, reflex, and you really have to know when and when not to engage.

This is why I can count with 1 hand, how many good thieves there are in high-tier tpvp right now. Eles and rangers though, are another story.

But I guess your list suggests the typical mindset of thieves.

Pretty much what I was going with there. And the main reason you don’t see many thieves high end is because stealth doesn’t allow you to register point capping… If another game mode were implemented you would see way more thieves… and then the gripes about thieves from the “high-end” people which I am not by any means (just got owned by Mufa the worlds greatest thief! LOL) but I know they would increase exponentially.

Actually, the stealth not being able to cap thing is not the reason. Stealth SHOULDN’T let you cap a point and that’s coming from me, a thief that strictly does tpvp and have 2000+ games. It would be unfair to cap with stealth.

The problem is the status of the current game and it’s unbalances, which forces a certain meta.

Here’s why:

You are almost bound to see 2x trap rangers or 2x eles in the current serious tpvp meta. Why?

1 – Because eles are the current god-class. There is no debating this, it is what it is, and that’s it.

2 – AOE dmg does just as much, if not more dmg than single target dps dmg…which thieves are kings of. This is a flaw…if AOE dmg can do the same amount of dmg but to multiple people, why would you want single target classes?

Granted a good thief + warrior is still very effective, the current meta just doesn’t call for that. It’s just much easier to run a cookie cutter comp like 2x eles or 2x rangers. There aren’t many good thieves in high-tier tpvp which proves that the skill ceiling on thieves is probably the hardest to achieve aside from warriors, but it’s just unfortunate that they aren’t getting put into meta builds because of the flaws of the current game mechanics.

AOE damage doesn’t do the same amount of damage to multiple people as a thief does to one person. Really no AOE damage in this game hits that hard except 100B which is splash damage but the most easily avoidable AOE damage in the game. If my mindwrack can hit EVERYONE around the target for 8k per illusion I would say that AOE damage does as much. But it doesn’t. It really doesn’t. And what I mean by a different game mode is like deathmatch capture the flag so on. If modes like that became implemented then the number of thieves would skyrocket. The current game mode is the only reason there is a downside to having a thief.

jportell.2197:

Amaterasu.6280:

jportell.2197:

Amaterasu.6280:

jportell.2197:

My list on classes skill floor ceiling Combos
(Skill Floor in Order from Lowest to Highest):
1. Thief
2. Guard (any spec)
3. Warrior
4. Necro
5. Ranger
6. Mesmer
7. Ele
8. Engi

Skill Ceiling
1. Thief
2. Warrior
3. Guard
4. Ele (sorry once you get attunement swap down there isn’t much more that goes into it)
5. Necro
6. Ranger (Dat amazing pet management is unbeatable)
7. Mesmer (Learning the class mechanics is great… Knowing how to use them ALL to your advantage. Most never get here.)
8. Engi (By far the hardest pvp class to master but oh man can they handle business)

If you think a thief is lowest in skill ceiling, I guess you don’t play enough high-tier tpvp. Spvp is filled with thieves, because they are easy to pick up at first and gib people, but once you get to a certain level of tpvp, it’s VERY hard to stay relevant in a team comp. Thieves are the only class that doesn’t have a true invulnerable cc, and have the lowest hp pool…all while we are pretty much forced to play glass cannon. Don’t even start talking about bleed thieves because at this point, they are irrelevant in high-tier tpvp. If you think it’s easy to survive as a glass cannon thief all while being a killing machine + help your team out…you haven’t played much of that level of tpvp. It’s very unforgiving to play a good thief in high-tier tpvp…it takes skill, awareness, reflex, and you really have to know when and when not to engage.

This is why I can count with 1 hand, how many good thieves there are in high-tier tpvp right now. Eles and rangers though, are another story.

But I guess your list suggests the typical mindset of thieves.

Pretty much what I was going with there. And the main reason you don’t see many thieves high end is because stealth doesn’t allow you to register point capping… If another game mode were implemented you would see way more thieves… and then the gripes about thieves from the “high-end” people which I am not by any means (just got owned by Mufa the worlds greatest thief! LOL) but I know they would increase exponentially.

Actually, the stealth not being able to cap thing is not the reason. Stealth SHOULDN’T let you cap a point and that’s coming from me, a thief that strictly does tpvp and have 2000+ games. It would be unfair to cap with stealth.

The problem is the status of the current game and it’s unbalances, which forces a certain meta.

Here’s why:

You are almost bound to see 2x trap rangers or 2x eles in the current serious tpvp meta. Why?

1 – Because eles are the current god-class. There is no debating this, it is what it is, and that’s it.

2 – AOE dmg does just as much, if not more dmg than single target dps dmg…which thieves are kings of. This is a flaw…if AOE dmg can do the same amount of dmg but to multiple people, why would you want single target classes?

Granted a good thief + warrior is still very effective, the current meta just doesn’t call for that. It’s just much easier to run a cookie cutter comp like 2x eles or 2x rangers. There aren’t many good thieves in high-tier tpvp which proves that the skill ceiling on thieves is probably the hardest to achieve aside from warriors, but it’s just unfortunate that they aren’t getting put into meta builds because of the flaws of the current game mechanics.

AOE damage doesn’t do the same amount of damage to multiple people as a thief does to one person. Really no AOE damage in this game hits that hard except 100B which is splash damage but the most easily avoidable AOE damage in the game. If my mindwrack can hit EVERYONE around the target for 8k per illusion I would say that AOE damage does as much. But it doesn’t. It really doesn’t. And what I mean by a different game mode is like deathmatch capture the flag so on. If modes like that became implemented then the number of thieves would skyrocket. The current game mode is the only reason there is a downside to having a thief.

Are you serious?

You DO know the reason why trap rangers are so popular is because of the dmg output on the 3 traps right? It’s not just for annoyance…it ACTUALLY hits hard. AOEs don’t do flat out dps, they often do condi dps, but it’s very potent.

Eles with ring of fire, burning speed + arcane blast…loads of dmg + burning.

Engis can also rain on everyone from 1500 range with unlimited grenades which do crazy good sustained damage.

Sure it was a slight exaggeration, of course a good backstab or 100b will always do more dmg single target, but when you can AOE and hit a whole group hard, it’s obvious why people don’t choose single target dps over AOEs. And we all know tpvp is all about team fights…rarely is it ever a 1v1.

Ele and Engi have indeed a high skill floor. But most warriors will have a hard time against them. Against most classes tbh. Of course it also depends on builds etc. But because warriors have such a hard time in high end pvp, they have the highest skill floor imo.

Amaterasu.6280:

AOE dmg can do the same amount of dmg but to multiple people, why would you want single target classes?

I play a glass cannon d/d ele and I yet have to hit anyone for 8k or higher as thieves can, while being able to repeat the same amount of damage up to 4 times.

stop comparing apples to oranges pls.

Razor.6392:

Amaterasu.6280:

AOE dmg can do the same amount of dmg but to multiple people, why would you want single target classes?

I play a glass cannon d/d ele and I yet have to hit anyone for 8k or higher as thieves can, while being able to repeat the same amount of damage up to 4 times.

stop comparing apples to oranges pls.

You’re missing the whole point. You’re playing a d/d ele and you don’t think you put out as much damage as thieves? Just because you don’t have a “backstab” skill, it doesn’t mean you don’t put out good damage overall. A single fire rotation + arcane blast andor/wave can easily kill a thief/glass cannon class. If you can’t do that, then you’re failing as an ele.

You really shouldn’t even talk if you’re playing a d/d ele which is the most OP class in game right now bar none.

Seriously, stop comparing apples to oranges.

@Razor so are you saying that AOE needs a nerf? I’m confused here. I personally don’t because while some AOE skills may hit hard and do damage across the board some classes (ele) only have access to any real damage through AOE. And I am of the mindset that some of the single target damage needs a HUGE tone down (backstab). And trap rangers may need a tweak… But its the only thing making the ranger as a class viable.

Amaterasu.6280:

You really shouldn’t even talk if you’re playing a d/d ele which is the most OP class in game right now bar none.

Seriously, stop comparing apples to oranges.

D/d ele is not the most op class in game..its not even a class!!? :S
You probably meant d/d 0/10/0/30/30 build with valkyries etc etc
But thats not what he said he is playing..
Im glad i helped with the mess in your head!have a nice day

As for this thread it cant be but really inaccurate..Cause obviously the class with the highest skill ceiling is…the class that i play !!

No one has reached the skill ceiling for any class, so it’s impossible to determine which class has the highest skill ceiling.

Amaterasu.6280:

Razor.6392:

Amaterasu.6280:

AOE dmg can do the same amount of dmg but to multiple people, why would you want single target classes?

I play a glass cannon d/d ele and I yet have to hit anyone for 8k or higher as thieves can, while being able to repeat the same amount of damage up to 4 times.

stop comparing apples to oranges pls.

You’re missing the whole point. You’re playing a d/d ele and you don’t think you put out as much damage as thieves? Just because you don’t have a “backstab” skill, it doesn’t mean you don’t put out good damage overall. A single fire rotation + arcane blast andor/wave can easily kill a thief/glass cannon class. If you can’t do that, then you’re failing as an ele.

You really shouldn’t even talk if you’re playing a d/d ele which is the most OP class in game right now bar none.

Seriously, stop comparing apples to oranges.

0/10/0/30/30 is OP, every other build is not.

So focus on that build, not on eles as a whole (like other people that try to get RtL nerfed and pretty much everything about eles nerfed lol)

Thread derailing here. Stick to floors and ceilings please

Well you don’t only have skill ceiling and skill floor, you also have the performance changes between these two. Sometimes abnormally high or low compared to the distance between the ceiling and the floor related to the classes.

Razor.6392:

Ya

low skill floor: thief, but they also have a high skill ceiling.

high skill floor: elementalist, I’d say this is the most accurate example for not-so-high skill ceiling. Basically once you learn how to use elementalist (once you overcome the high skill floor) you are golden. There’s little to improve once you reach that point (doesn’t mean it’s easy to get there).

Elementalists have a low skill floor but very high skill ceiling. You have a ton of Elementalists playing the class fairly well, but very few playing it excedingly well.
Guardian is another example of a low skill-floor, high skill ceiling class.

Davinci.8027:

Razor.6392:

Ya

low skill floor: thief, but they also have a high skill ceiling.

high skill floor: elementalist, I’d say this is the most accurate example for not-so-high skill ceiling. Basically once you learn how to use elementalist (once you overcome the high skill floor) you are golden. There’s little to improve once you reach that point (doesn’t mean it’s easy to get there).

Elementalists have a low skill floor but very high skill ceiling. You have a ton of Elementalists playing the class fairly well, but very few playing it excedingly well.
Guardian is another example of a low skill-floor, high skill ceiling class.

Do you feel that’s because of the profession, or just because of how forgiving 10/30/30 d/d is? I realize attunement swapping isn’t that hard but I think eles are tougher for first-time players to catch on to—unless they just copy/paste the meta build, of course.

In other words, is it easier to learn or just better?

MrForz.1953:

Well you don’t only have skill ceiling and skill floor, you also have the performance changes between these two. Sometimes abnormally high or low compared to the distance between the ceiling and the floor related to the classes.

yeah true..itss much more complicated than what people account it for.
Also skill floor IS imo affected by effectiveness (aka op level) of a class .
Ele for example while has a rough start at learning compared to other classes if you are new to the game it then flats out.So essentially a good ele and an average ele have similar levels of effectiveness and it requires a lot of skill from the player to be more effective. That still doesnt mean that an exceptional ele wont have a world difference in game compared to an average one though or that the room to play better isnt massive..
We could say that the theres a skill to effectiveness curve that is different for each class

jportell.2197:

My list on classes skill floor ceiling Combos
(Skill Floor in Order from Lowest to Highest):
1. Thief
2. Guard (any spec)
3. Warrior
4. Necro
5. Ranger
6. Mesmer
7. Ele
8. Engi

Skill Ceiling
1. Thief
2. Warrior
3. Guard
4. Ele (once you get attunement swaps down there’s not much more to it)
5. Necro
6. Ranger (Dat amazing pet management is unbeatable)
7. Mesmer (Learning the class mechanics is great… Knowing how to use them ALL to your advantage. Most never get here.)
8. Engi (By far the hardest pvp class to master but oh man can they handle business)

Agree on skill floor list, vastly disagree on skill ceiling list.

The comment on ele is insulting. Your playstyle will shift VASTLY depending upon what you are trying to accomplish if you are any good at the profession. It is not simply cycling attunements.

skill ceiling list revised:

Skill Ceiling
1. guard (most of their skill synergy is on auto-pilot from their builds)
2. Warrior
3. Ranger (pet management is really nothing compared to necro pet management, or ability management for professions with more skill bar paging than one weapon swap)
4. thief (outside the backstab build, very unforgiving of mistakes)
5. Necro (less forgiving of mistakes than thief)
6. Ele (if you try to cycle standard rotations you will be destroyed)
7. Mesmer (Learning the class mechanics is great… Knowing how to use them ALL to your advantage. Most never get here.)
8. Engi (By far the hardest pvp class to master but oh man can they handle business)

kostbabis.8791:

.So essentially a good ele and an average ele have similar levels of effectiveness

hah! not even close. Anyone who learns the basics of ele and tries to pvp with it will end up combo-broken on every step by anyone who actually knows how to play.

^then you havent seen 2 eles duel..where one severely outplays the other one and it still ends in a draw due to build comps..Basically every non glass canon or heavy dps ele fight is a draw.
Also whats the difference between an average ele and a very good ele against a warrior..they both will own him(in the current warrior uverused build) with the worse one having blown a cd or more.
What im trying to say is that you might be able to pull of something amazing skill wise with a class and the end result would be just a tiny bit better than doing your normal rotation in another build.
That shouldnt be the case..For example there are ele builds that are based on arcanes/elem surge that require great timing that lets you land heavy fire bursts but are all outshadowed by evasive arcana.
In short ele has high skill ceiling imo but the drawback of not being there is not harsh at all.In fact i see people all the time face rolling at far point while still doing a great job at doing exactly what they are aiming for..
Engie on the other hand while having just similar complexity and skill combo options is much harder if you ..kitten up!

kostbabis.8791:

^then you havent seen 2 eles duel..where one severely outplays the other one and it still ends in a draw due to build comps..Basically every non glass canon or heavy dps ele fight is a draw.
Also whats the difference between an average ele and a very good ele against a warrior..they both will own him(in the current warrior uverused build) with the worse one having blown a cd or more.
What im trying to say is that you might be able to pull of something amazing skill wise with a class and the end result would be just better than doing your normal rotation in another build.
That shouldnt be the case..For example there are ele builds that are based on arcanes/elem surge that require great timing that lets you land heavy fire bursts but are all outshadowed by evasive arcana.
In short ele has high skill ceiling imo but the drawback of not being there is not harsh at all.In fact i see people all the time face rolling at far point while still doing a great job at doing exactly what they are aiming for..
Engie on the other hand while having just similar complexity and skill combo options is much harder if you ..kitten up!

All I can say to this is you’ve been watching bad warriors, and your witnessed duels were not of people with different levels of skill.

Then there’s your rant on far point — i’m so sorry nobody on your teams has the time, flexibility, or inclination to learn the power of combo-breaking, ranged-focus-fire, burn spamming, or timed immobilize. This only backs my thought that the skill floor for other professions should be upped dramatically, because so many low-skill-floor professions can get where they need to go without learning to play.

plasmacutter.2709:

jportell.2197:

My list on classes skill floor ceiling Combos
(Skill Floor in Order from Lowest to Highest):
1. Thief
2. Guard (any spec)
3. Warrior
4. Necro
5. Ranger
6. Mesmer
7. Ele
8. Engi

Skill Ceiling
1. Thief
2. Warrior
3. Guard
4. Ele (once you get attunement swaps down there’s not much more to it)
5. Necro
6. Ranger (Dat amazing pet management is unbeatable)
7. Mesmer (Learning the class mechanics is great… Knowing how to use them ALL to your advantage. Most never get here.)
8. Engi (By far the hardest pvp class to master but oh man can they handle business)

Agree on skill floor list, vastly disagree on skill ceiling list.

The comment on ele is insulting. Your playstyle will shift VASTLY depending upon what you are trying to accomplish if you are any good at the profession. It is not simply cycling attunements.

skill ceiling list revised:

Skill Ceiling
1. guard (most of their skill synergy is on auto-pilot from their builds)
2. Warrior
3. Ranger (pet management is really nothing compared to necro pet management, or ability management for professions with more skill bar paging than one weapon swap)
4. thief (outside the backstab build, very unforgiving of mistakes)
5. Necro (less forgiving of mistakes than thief)
6. Ele (if you try to cycle standard rotations you will be destroyed)
7. Mesmer (Learning the class mechanics is great… Knowing how to use them ALL to your advantage. Most never get here.)
8. Engi (By far the hardest pvp class to master but oh man can they handle business)

kostbabis.8791:

.So essentially a good ele and an average ele have similar levels of effectiveness

hah! not even close. Anyone who learns the basics of ele and tries to pvp with it will end up combo-broken on every step by anyone who actually knows how to play.

Well for the most part we agree… But I will always say that I think thief skill ceiling is by far the lowest… Just mine and everyone that I play with’s opinion.

Pretty fun how ppl actually think thieves are so easy to play…thief is probably one of the hardest classes to play properly in tpvp that’s why you don’t see so many good ones around…apparently ppl base their judjement on hotjoin crap where everyone can pretty much kill everyone else with almost everything…. Spamming hs is one thing, but i don’t consider hs spammers at all, we can say thief has a really low floor skill just haste and spam hs…but ceiling is well above let’s say eles, with ele once you get into skill rotation you’re pretty much done and if you run valkirie you can make lots of mistakes and still survive (You know..mist form, rtl, op heals, vigor, regen and so on…), in high end pvp if you make one, just one, mistake with a thief you’re down…no matter what. Low floor? Yes maybe, aswell as pew pew or trap rangers or hb wars and so on…ceiling? Very very high…a thief needs to be really really good to match up even with mediocre eles, you know you can’t just go in steal.c&d.bs -> stomp, if you think so you never played a dps thief in paids and i suggest you to try running one with all this low skill floor and survive more than 5 secs in a paids team fight, really give it a try before talkin’ bullkitten

^lol you cant compare full glass canon builds with bunkerish ones and say a class is easy because it can take a lot of beating :O
Just the fact that thief is viable with that kind of offencive setup in paids atually proves the opposite of what you are saying :P
Anyway thief is not easy to play good imo but dont get “offended” so easiliy by things you read on a forum.

Archaon.6245:

Pretty fun how ppl actually think thieves are so easy to play…thief is probably one of the hardest classes to play properly in tpvp that’s why you don’t see so many good ones around…apparently ppl base their judjement on hotjoin crap where everyone can pretty much kill everyone else with almost everything…. Spamming hs is one thing, but i don’t consider hs spammers at all, we can say thief has a really low floor skill just haste and spam hs…but ceiling is well above let’s say eles, with ele once you get into skill rotation you’re pretty much done and if you run valkirie you can make lots of mistakes and still survive (You know..mist form, rtl, op heals, vigor, regen and so on…), in high end pvp if you make one, just one, mistake with a thief you’re down…no matter what. Low floor? Yes maybe, aswell as pew pew or trap rangers or hb wars and so on…ceiling? Very very high…a thief needs to be really really good to match up even with mediocre eles, you know you can’t just go in steal.c&d.bs -> stomp, if you think so you never played a dps thief in paids and i suggest you to try running one with all this low skill floor and survive more than 5 secs in a paids team fight, really give it a try before talkin’ bullkitten

What kind of skill do you need to go stealth and land a 6k backstab? Well it’s pointless trying to reason with you…..

But it’s very very amusing how a thief come here and tell others that they’re bad players because they use loads of defensive utility and build set up to counter….lol…a newb friendly profession that can deal over 12k dmg within 1.5s while invisible, not only the same developers have admitted that thief is a very low skill cap profession compared to elementalist but also few months ago, thief players used to call nabs anybody who used to go in PvP without defensive builds including stun breakers , anybody who used to complain about thieves ( and still does) get quickly deemed as noob for not bringing stun breakers, basically thief players consider their profession legitimate because you can still survive by being forced in using extreme defensive set up…amusing.

Plus..want to compare RTL with shortbow thieves? I can’t surely teleport on top f the stairs from the bottom of the arc in Forest of Nifheel and neither I can teleport on top of the tower from the bottom, I can’t cover the same distance of a thief using his shortbow three times consecutively so I can’t catch a thief at all…as he can still go stealth, in wvwvw a short bow thief can outrun 20+ people where a rtl ele can’t

You complain about mistform? You forget: elixir S, endure pain, distortion and more

Sorry when I beat 1vs1 these r40+ mesmers/warriors/thieves ….with a staff where are my OP heal if I use soldier amulet and a single cantrip ?
sorry dude there are no low skill cap builds on ele or you suck or you don’t
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0togRMEc_o

You’re delusional if you think an ele need to have healing power to beat a thief and there are very nasty surprises coming your way dude

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

Larynx.2453:

As another example, engineers have a low skill floor, but a high skill ceiling. The two aren’t dependent on each other.

Interesting you say that. I did not think people considered engi easy to pick up initially.

This is all highly dependent on the build. A pistol/pistol engineer that doesn’t run any kits is probably one of the easiest builds to play in the game.

Arheundel.6451:

Archaon.6245:

Pretty fun how ppl actually think thieves are so easy to play…thief is probably one of the hardest classes to play properly in tpvp that’s why you don’t see so many good ones around…apparently ppl base their judjement on hotjoin crap where everyone can pretty much kill everyone else with almost everything…. Spamming hs is one thing, but i don’t consider hs spammers at all, we can say thief has a really low floor skill just haste and spam hs…but ceiling is well above let’s say eles, with ele once you get into skill rotation you’re pretty much done and if you run valkirie you can make lots of mistakes and still survive (You know..mist form, rtl, op heals, vigor, regen and so on…), in high end pvp if you make one, just one, mistake with a thief you’re down…no matter what. Low floor? Yes maybe, aswell as pew pew or trap rangers or hb wars and so on…ceiling? Very very high…a thief needs to be really really good to match up even with mediocre eles, you know you can’t just go in steal.c&d.bs -> stomp, if you think so you never played a dps thief in paids and i suggest you to try running one with all this low skill floor and survive more than 5 secs in a paids team fight, really give it a try before talkin’ bullkitten

What kind of skill do you need to go stealth and land a 6k backstab? Well it’s pointless trying to reason with you…..

But it’s very very amusing how a thief come here and tell others that they’re bad players because they use loads of defensive utility and build set up to counter….lol…a newb friendly profession that can deal over 12k dmg within 1.5s while invisible, not only the same developers have admitted that thief is a very low skill cap profession compared to elementalist but also few months ago, thief players used to call nabs anybody who used to go in PvP without defensive builds including stun breakers , anybody who used to complain about thieves ( and still does) get quickly deemed as noob for not bringing stun breakers, basically thief players consider their profession legitimate because you can still survive by being forced in using extreme defensive set up…amusing.

Plus..want to compare RTL with shortbow thieves? I can’t surely teleport on top f the stairs from the bottom of the arc in Forest of Nifheel and neither I can teleport on top of the tower from the bottom, I can’t cover the same distance of a thief using his shortbow three times consecutively so I can’t catch a thief at all…as he can still go stealth, in wvwvw a short bow thief can outrun 20+ people where a rtl ele can’t

You complain about mistform? You forget: elixir S, endure pain, distortion and more

Sorry when I beat 1vs1 these r40+ mesmers/warriors/thieves ….with a staff where are my OP heal if I use soldier amulet and a single cantrip ?
sorry dude there are no low skill cap builds on ele or you suck or you don’t
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I0togRMEc_o

You’re delusional if you think an ele need to have healing power to beat a thief and there are very nasty surprises coming your way dude

Aaaaand this is an example, thank for bringing it to us…. So you think that all you have to do with a thief in tpvp is going stealth and lands backstabs around? lol Have you ever seen lowell playing? Go tell him you’ve just to go stealth and press 2 buttons while playing thief….nothing more to say, arguing with ignorant ppl is just pointless. Yes you play an ele so you’re so pro and awesome, i think anet would call you next time to give them opinions about pvp….they must stop asking those nab thieves…tell them to fire JS also and take you instead…

All hail the new guild wars 2 master. /salute

Btw if you say you can own every good thief you face (even without healing), well it’s probably because you just outclass them…or do you really think you’re a better player than everyone else? Yeah he has a gun and i have a tank….buhahaha…..i killed you nooob, i’m so prooo!!111!!!11! Try to run a thief and go 1vs1 with a decent ele…let’s see how pro you really are..you’re just like a bunker guardian thinking he has skills because he can laugh at hb wars..

How laughable…from “everybody can play an ele and be a god” to " when you face decent eles"

Your entire being can be explained with this article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

A glass cannon user complaining that he cannot beat a more balanced build…how original.

Glass Cannon

Game Term. Refers to a class of vehicle or sometimes a unit that has very high attack strength and sometimes long range but generally poor defense and low health as a result.

The general strategy for them is to either destroy the enemy before being attacked or hides behind other, stronger ally units.

The artillery unit in that game is great. But it’s a Glass Cannon, I only use it for defense.

Learn to play your favourite role before whining, it seems you lack knowledge on the all “different roles” setting.

Oozo.7856:

Interpret Interrupt.3824:

Larynx.2453:

As another example, engineers have a low skill floor, but a high skill ceiling. The two aren’t dependent on each other.

Interesting you say that. I did not think people considered engi easy to pick up initially.

This is all highly dependent on the build. A pistol/pistol engineer that doesn’t run any kits is probably one of the easiest builds to play in the game.

That’s true, and pistols/pots engies aren’t too bad at WvW. They get eaten alive in tournaments, though.