Guild Wars 2

+1 ,, The fact that a mob is limited to a surten number of bleeding making the bleed builds deal no dmg is freakingkitten seriously..

This will lead to bleed damage nerf and your “Conditionmancer” will be useless in standard PvE.
Simply removing limit is not an option, obviously, since bleed is already do a very impressive amount of damage.

Wanko.8103:

This will lead to bleed damage nerf and your “Conditionmancer” will be useless in standard PvE.
Simply removing limit is not an option, obviously, since bleed is already do a very impressive amount of damage.

Did you read my post? How is someone doing conditions doing any more damage than direct damage user? It’s the same. You either do damage by conditions or direct damage.
This should not lead to bleed damage nerf.

Vibe.2861:

Did you read my post? How is someone doing conditions doing any more damage than direct damage user? It’s the same. You either do damage by conditions or direct damage.
This should not lead to bleed damage nerf.

Assuming it’s really the same total damage, not sure. But generally speaking condition builds should do slightly less damage (due to how easily conditions are removed in most situations), and then it balances out again.

Carighan.6758:

Assuming it’s really the same total damage, not sure. But generally speaking condition builds should do slightly less damage (due to how easily conditions are removed in most situations), and then it balances out again.

You mean they should do slightly less damage due to how easily they are applied? Because what you said makes no sense: you said they should deal less damage because they’re easily removed, that would make sense only if you said that they should do higher damage.

In any case, this isn’t important for this suggestion.

As a Warrior I can do enough damage without my conditions, but for balance, reason, and common sense you’re absolutely right. An important issue that should be resolved quickly.

Vibe.2861:

Wanko.8103:

This will lead to bleed damage nerf and your “Conditionmancer” will be useless in standard PvE.
Simply removing limit is not an option, obviously, since bleed is already do a very impressive amount of damage.

Did you read my post? How is someone doing conditions doing any more damage than direct damage user? It’s the same. You either do damage by conditions or direct damage.
This should not lead to bleed damage nerf.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bleed

Bleeding can stack in intensity up to 25 times and each stack does one pulse of damage per second. The damage dealt by bleeding is determined by the following formula:

2.5 + 0.5 * Level + 0.05 * Condition Damage per stack per second

More bleeds = more damage.

Wanko.8103:

Vibe.2861:

Wanko.8103:

This will lead to bleed damage nerf and your “Conditionmancer” will be useless in standard PvE.
Simply removing limit is not an option, obviously, since bleed is already do a very impressive amount of damage.

Did you read my post? How is someone doing conditions doing any more damage than direct damage user? It’s the same. You either do damage by conditions or direct damage.
This should not lead to bleed damage nerf.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bleed

Bleeding can stack in intensity up to 25 times and each stack does one pulse of damage per second. The damage dealt by bleeding is determined by the following formula:

2.5 + 0.5 * Level + 0.05 * Condition Damage per stack per second

More bleeds = more damage.

As you can see for yourself, this is a linear formula therefore if you ignore self healing
10 sec of 50 bleeding stack = 2 x (10 sec of 25 bleeding stack)

The bleeding stack is wrong in PvE and should be calculated individually (not just bleeding but any condition) because if there are 2 necros as a boss fight they will easily maintain 25 bleeding stacks BUT if a 3rd necro comes he will deal no damage because the other 2 already reached the cap

if you think that condition damage =/= direct damage
then you should consider this
2 necros keeping 25 bleeding on a boss
a warrior and another necro come
the warrior will add more damage to the boss because he deals direct damage which is not capped
on the other hand, the necro deals 0 damage because the boss is already capped at 25 stacks
in conclusion → if you’ll get more direct damage deals the boss will go down quicker while more condtion damage will not change a thing

i have the same problem as a ranger with a shortbow. it’s ridiculous, knowing that wow had this problem years ago.

Damage over time skills are balanced to cause more overall health loss than direct damage skills. This is to compensate for the fact that the damage comes slower, giving the opponent more time to deal his own damage or heal up. Two or three players who can stack the dots up really high negate this disadvantage because the opponent gets bursted down like it’s direct damage but much greater potential health loss than normal direct damage.
Hence a cap of some sort needs to exist.

One solution is to both lower the original bleed cap and allow reduced bleed damage on all stacks beyond that cap. The purpose is to equalize the overall health loss of DoT skills with typical direct damage skills when the bleed cap has been exceeded. This solution might require some of re-balancing.

I can’t agree with you. The last bosses I fought in Sparkfly Fen (including the dragon) I used just Stone Shards and nothing else, just to try that, and always got golden participation medals.

As bleeding is not a fixed damage, but increases with the source, I believe all the stacks are applied and stay on the enemy, but only the 25 strongest ones are in effect.
If that’s the case, the damage is guaranteed on the enemy, and you should get credit even if your stacks are not in the 25 strongest, as they are still there, just doing nothing, but there.

MithranArkanere.8957:

I can’t agree with you. The last bosses I fought in Sparkfly Fen (including the dragon) I used just Stone Shards and nothing else, just to try that, and always got golden participation medals.

As bleeding is not a fixed damage, but increases with the source, I believe all the stacks are applied and stay on the enemy, but only the 25 strongest ones are in effect.
If that’s the case, the damage is guaranteed on the enemy, and you should get credit even if your stacks are not in the 25 strongest, as they are still there, just doing nothing, but there.

but even if you get the medal its not like you were helping at all
whats the point of that? if thats your solution it sounds like everyone should change their builds to direct damage otherwise they are not really helping…

(btw I play warrior and very far from condition build)

MithranArkanere.8957:

I can’t agree with you. The last bosses I fought in Sparkfly Fen (including the dragon) I used just Stone Shards and nothing else, just to try that, and always got golden participation medals.

As bleeding is not a fixed damage, but increases with the source, I believe all the stacks are applied and stay on the enemy, but only the 25 strongest ones are in effect.
If that’s the case, the damage is guaranteed on the enemy, and you should get credit even if your stacks are not in the 25 strongest, as they are still there, just doing nothing, but there.

The damage is not guaranteed and I’m not getting any medals if I’m stacking bleeds on an a perma 25 bleed stacked boss.

I totally agree.
The 25 stack limitation must go!

As a Necromancer your damage is already bad enough – having this issue on top of it…

Wanko.8103:

Vibe.2861:

Wanko.8103:

This will lead to bleed damage nerf and your “Conditionmancer” will be useless in standard PvE.
Simply removing limit is not an option, obviously, since bleed is already do a very impressive amount of damage.

Did you read my post? How is someone doing conditions doing any more damage than direct damage user? It’s the same. You either do damage by conditions or direct damage.
This should not lead to bleed damage nerf.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bleed

Bleeding can stack in intensity up to 25 times and each stack does one pulse of damage per second. The damage dealt by bleeding is determined by the following formula:

2.5 + 0.5 * Level + 0.05 * Condition Damage per stack per second

More bleeds = more damage.

As pointed out by a poster above me, this function means that the damage per player does not increase if more condition stackers join. The formula does not include the existing bleed stack on a mob at all.

I’ll give you an example:

Let’s say a level 80 Necro with 100 condition damage can keep up 10 bleed stacks on a single lvl 80 mob:

2,5 + (0,5 * 80) + (0,05 * 100) = 47,5 per stack per second

10 stacks = 10 * 47,5 = 475 damage per second

Now let’s say we have 5 of those Necros, each keeping up 10 bleeds on a single mob (with no bleed limit):

2,5 + (0,5 * 80) + (0,05 * 100) = 47,5 per stack per second

50 stacks = 50 * 47,5 = 2375 damage per second

Now let’s see an example for 5 of those Necros, each attacking their OWN mob:

475 damage per second per Necro (from the formula of 1 Necro attacking a mob)
5 Necros = 5 * 475 damage per second = 2375 damage per second

From this we can draw that the damage a single player does on a boss fight DOES NOT INCREASE if more bleed stackers join the fight.

Im not a bleeder, but I agree with this.

I dont think the people against this really understand wtf they are talking about.

I don’t think there should be such a low cap on conditions for PVE, it seems kind of ridiculous. I’ve seen the problem with people getting no medals earlier when the event to kill that branded dragon occurred and quite a few necromancers didn’t get any reward at all.

i m low level atm and never noticed such a cap, but if it s true then it is totally irrelevant indeed and should be removed

NornBearPig.9814:

This is to compensate for the fact that the damage comes slower, giving the opponent more time to deal his own damage or heal up. Two or three players who can stack the dots up really high negate this disadvantage because the opponent gets bursted down like it’s direct damage but much greater potential health loss than normal direct damage.

I beg to disagree on this.

If two direct damage characters attack the same target, we can really talk about “burst” which may catch receiver off-guard and kill him. Condition damage will very likely give him more time to react, even if it deals more damage in it’s overall duration. I don’t think you can burst someone down with conditions unless those condition skills are terribly overpowered. I’m talking “10k dps” overpowered; my condition build does around 70 per stack, which wouldn’t deal 1/5th of that even if I could reach 25 on my own, which I can’t. This was mostly aimed at pvp though.

In pve, I assume event boss HP scales linearly with number of people fighting the boss (it doesn’t make sense to do anything less IMO). It is only natural to expect the same with damage dealt to the boss. And this is pretty much what happens with direct damage builds. You get 2 of them and they deal 2x more damage (not taking gear and stuff into account). Unfortunately, this is not the case for condition damage. With bleed and confusion, dps you can deal is capped at 25 stacks; with burning and poison, dps does not change, only duration increases. In both cases, more people do not necessarily increase damage linearly (usually they don’t), unlike in direct damage case.

There are conditions where global cap makes sense. One example being Vulnerability, since that affects all incoming damage and thus improves effectiveness with number of attackers.

I personally don’t care whether 25 stack cap goes altogether, or is changed to per-player. I do think, though, that it needs change and that GUI should show only stacks inflicted by my character (seeing 120 stacks isn’t as useful for me).

PS: I have no idea how damage is calculated with multiple stacks from different sources/players (whether with stacked duration or intensity) so that could affect reasoning here.

I am a Conditionmancer, and this should really be changed!

25 stacks/player or unlimited stacks (at least in PvE and WvW).

Now I have to avoid bleeding skills because the bleeding
stack at group fights is always at 25.

Remove it for veteran or higher monsters only.

I assume that’s doable yes? That solves all problems.

In events where there are swarms of low level enemies you can get credit by trying to hit ones that arent simply being AOE’d down.

In events with bosses, they’ll be above veteran level and thus susceptible to more bleed and you’ll be able to get credit.

In PvP players wont be veteran ringed and thus immune to the change.

Vibe.2861:

Let’s say a level 80 Necro with 100 condition damage can keep up 10 bleed stacks on a single lvl 80 mob:

2,5 + (0,5 * 80) + (0,05 * 100) = 47,5 per stack per second

10 stacks = 10 * 47,5 = 475 damage per second

---

Now let’s say we have 5 of those Necros, each keeping up 10 bleeds on a single mob (with no bleed limit):

2,5 + (0,5 * 80) + (0,05 * 100) = 47,5 per stack per second

50 stacks = 50 * 47,5 = 2375 damage per second

Well, that’s about it. Dragon is a single mob and without limit damage will skyrocket.

I also believe that you shouldn’t receive reward if you’re throwing bleeds on enemy, which is at bleed cap already. Why are you doing this? It is obvious that you’re not helping the fight, not doing any damage, then why?
If you want to participate, there is a plenty of possibilities, including destruction of walls and spawned mobs. You will be rewarded properly for this kind of contribution.

Removing the cap isnt going to do much of anything at all in terms of you getting a better medal on bosses. If people can get the boss to 25 stacks in seconds they can surely get him to 30, 40, 50 etc… just as quick. Your necros dmg will still be zero if you come into the fight once at max stacks. So this suggestion doesnt solve that issue, it would just cause another one, which would be overpowered bleeding stacks.

Wanko.8103:

Well, that’s about it. Dragon is a single mob and without limit damage will skyrocket.

I also believe that you shouldn’t receive reward if you’re throwing bleeds on enemy, which is at bleed cap already. Why are you doing this? It is obvious that you’re not helping the fight, not doing any damage, then why?
If you want to participate, there is a plenty of possibilities, including destruction of walls and spawned mobs. You will be rewarded properly for this kind of contribution.

… I have serious doubt that you even understood what I wrote. First off, the damage will not skyrocket. It won’t be anything more than a Necro would usually do on a single mob, because 475*5 = 2375, just fyi. It won’t be anything more than a direct damage dealer. Or are you saying that 90% of condition builds shouldn’t even do damage to a boss?

Secondly, I’m using a build/setup that is obviously based on bleeds. If I grab any other weapon, I’ll do minor damage, even more so because Necros are weak at direct damage.

Thirdly, you won’t get a medal above bronze (and even that would be a miracle), just by destroying adds (that die in a second because of zerg aoe anyway) or the wall. Trust me, I tried that as well.

Nebiros.5612:

Removing the cap isnt going to do much of anything at all in terms of you getting a better medal on bosses. If people can get the boss to 25 stacks in seconds they can surely get him to 30, 40, 50 etc… just as quick. Your necros dmg will still be zero if you come into the fight once at max stacks. So this suggestion doesnt solve that issue, it would just cause another one, which would be overpowered bleeding stacks.

Wow, the logical fallacy in this post is at dangerous levels. First of, how will we be able to hit a 30, 40, 50 limit (and thus zero necro damage) if the cap is removed?

Second, overpowered bleeding stacks? I’m seriously losing the will to explain it again, but here you go, in caps and bold just because you so obviously don’t understand:
BLEED STACKING DOES NOT DO MORE DAMAGE THAN ANY OTHER DAMAGE DEALER IN A BOSS FIGHT.
Refer to my post with calculations for that.

Rather than doing the internet equivalent of screaming in rage why don’t you test it? Get a Burst Damage Warrior and a Condition Damage Warrior, make sure they have roughly comparable builds/gear, and then let them loose on a boss and parse the results.

My personal experience is that condition damage is actually much higher in general. Direct damage just happens all at once. I’d lean towards saying that condition damage has a higher DPS than burst damage atm.

Notice I said two warrior builds, not a warrior and a Necro, since a Necro has some unique advantages and penalties that lower it’s overall damage and a Warrior is focused much more on straight damage.

Ralathar.7236:

Rather than doing the internet equivalent of screaming in rage why don’t you test it? Get a Burst Damage Warrior and a Condition Damage Warrior, make sure they have roughly comparable builds/gear, and then let them loose on a boss and parse the results.

My personal experience is that condition damage is actually much higher in general. Direct damage just happens all at once. I’d lean towards saying that condition damage has a higher DPS than burst damage atm.

Notice I said two warrior builds, not a warrior and a Necro, since a Necro has some unique advantages and penalties that lower it’s overall damage and a Warrior is focused much more on straight damage.

That is not however the case here. What you’re talking is about damage of specific builds, that should be handled / balanced separately and most definitely not by a global 25 bleed stack limit per boss, rendering most bleed builds near useless.

Well, that’s about it. Dragon is a single mob and without limit damage will skyrocket.

I also believe that you shouldn’t receive reward if you’re throwing bleeds on enemy, which is at bleed cap already. Why are you doing this? It is obvious that you’re not helping the fight, not doing any damage, then why?
If you want to participate, there is a plenty of possibilities, including destruction of walls and spawned mobs. You will be rewarded properly for this kind of contribution.

necros throw bleeds at enemies because between the bugged pets and mess that is their traits, they have no viable spec other than conditions.

in a boss fight with no adds, they’re stuck, and conditions don’t work against non-mobs

Perhaps a bleed that is applied at the 25 stack limit should push off the lowest duration bleed causing it to deal all of the remaining damage at the same time.

As a shortbow-equipped, condition-focused ranger (and easily able to get 20-25 bleeding stacks on my own), I wholeheartedly agree. Either removing the bleeding cap or making it per-player (they should be about similar in DPS considering it’s hard to maintain more than 25 bleeding stacks while solo) would greatly increase our viability in large group events.

I could switch to longbow for more ranged direct-damage, but it’s hard to spec out of condition damage when I’m already so heavily invested in it trait-wise. Plus, I just like the short bow better with its bleeding stacks

Conditions ignore armor.

Hundred Blades hits for 25k.

lethlora.1320:

Conditions ignore armor.

Like I said, that is not the case here. Condition versus Direct damage balancing should be balanced separately, as it also affects a single player killing a single mob or multiple mobs (or players).
Not that I think it needs balancing, because I think the DPS is at about same with direct damage – although we can only speculate because there aren’t really any dps meters out there.

This thread is about condition builds being completely useless on large fights. Let’s keep it at that.

Vibe.2861:

lethlora.1320:

Conditions ignore armor.

Like I said, that is not the case here. Condition versus Direct damage balancing should be balanced separately, as it also affects a single player killing a single mob or multiple mobs (or players).
Not that I think it needs balancing, because I think the DPS is at about same with direct damage – although we can only speculate because there aren’t really any dps meters out there.

This thread is about condition builds being completely useless on large fights. Let’s keep it at that.

The problem is that while agreeing with the idea is a no brainer, alot of us understand that it is very well possible for this change to make a significant difference in how fast some world bosses go down. We just keep our minds open to the possibility of this.

So it’s not a lack of support. It’s an idea that’s supported, so long as it doesn’t throw off balance. If it throws off balance the problem still needs to be fixed. It would just take some slightly more complex change at that point.

Simply put, a cap on bleeds means that bleed builds become very less effective in group fights. So that gives non-bleed users an advantage. I get the feeling that Arentnet is scared that without a cap enemies will have stacks of over 200 bleeds on them and die too fast. But you know what you could do? Give bosses and stuff the ability to remove conditions more often. If you want you could even give them an ability to cure all bleed effects. Something that could keep bleeds in check THAT IS NOT A CAP HARGLE MARGLE LARGLE.

That this discussion even has to be had is… interesting.

There should be no cap on any damage over time duration or intensity. Unless there’s some hidden mechanic causing bleeds to scale in any way but linearly when stacked, anyone arguing against this suggestion has literally no ground to stand on. And if such a hidden mechanic does exist (though there’s no reason to believe it does), it should simply be removed along with the cap.

Ralathar.7236:

The problem is that while agreeing with the idea is a no brainer, alot of us understand that it is very well possible for this change to make a significant difference in how fast some world bosses go down. We just keep our minds open to the possibility of this.

So it’s not a lack of support. It’s an idea that’s supported, so long as it doesn’t throw off balance. If it throws off balance the problem still needs to be fixed. It would just take some slightly more complex change at that point.

Yes, of course. The boss will go down faster (I dare say much faster) if there’s no bleed cap (or it’s raised), that’s a fact, because all conditions for every single person will then be “working”. ANet would also need to increase boss health, or provide means of condition removal, like someone above suggested.

Let’s compare two situations…

We are killing a world boss…

What will be the difference between 1 player and 10 players direct damage trained killing the boss?
I believe time wise there will be no difference as boss hp with each additional player will raise as the damage dealt by total amount of additional players will rise accordingly.

So let’s do some theory

Boss with one player attacking has 20k HP when same boss with 10 attacking players will have 200k HP.

1 direct damage player has 2k dps so 10 players direct damage trained will have 20k dps

So far all clear…

Now let’s have a look at the difference between 1 player bleed trained and 10 players…

Again boss will have 20k HP when hit by one player and accordingly 200k HP when hit by 10 players but…

The difference is that bleed trained player has as well 2k dps but let’s say 500 dps goes towards weak direct damage spells and 1.5k dps goes towards bleeds… So if we take that bleed cap into account 10 breeders will do just 2k dps + 9×500 = 6.5k dps as each bleed above the cap is ignored but boss still has extra hp with 10 players witch is 200k…

Now why some of you think boss will be killed too fast? Let’s all the breeders train in direct damage will you cry then for some immune ability now and then for boss same as condition remover?

Or something that could keep direct damage in check… Sarcasm detected….

For the people saying that the boss will go down much faster with no cap:
Right now, there’s a serious disincentive to run a condition build in PVE. I know I am avoiding condition damage because of this. As time goes on more people will learn that condition damage is essentially useless for bosses/champions, and will use power builds in event-heavy areas. This will vastly increase the damage done to bosses, since there won’t be as many worthless condition damage users around.
Since condition and power builds seem to do similar overall damage that means that removing the condition cap would merely allow people to use condition damage, instead of shoehorning them into power builds. Overall the damage will likely stay nearly the same.

stack limit is needed to balance “stacks in intensity” conditions with “stacks in duration” conditions like burning. Everyone knows that dead boss corpse should be burning for another two hours from all the burning that was applied during the encounter.

Since duration based conditions are more apt to have their damage mitigated from condition removal, they had to cap the amount of damage that could be applied by faster acting conditions like bleed.

For those that want to be not only active but also useful in the existing (and future) implementation, consider:

There are a lot of other things a condition based build could focus on … weakness and vulnerability are two important conditions that unfortunately seem to rarely be applied to a boss. Try switching up your weapon set before heading into battle.

also,

What about those defiant stacks .. I have yet to see even an organized group manage those defiant stacks so you can actually interrupt the important skills that need interrupting. Try taking a low cooldown interrupt utility and use it just to help reduce the defiance.

consider also traits,

I know, as a warrior, I drop my “bleed duration 50%” trait for “chance to apply vulnerability” when going against a world champion.

Imagine the frustration if the game limited your Direct Damage based on how many other players were attacking.
‘… sorry warrior, your F1 usually does 2,000 damage but since so many players are damaging the boss it only did 400…’
That is what is happening to condition builds with a cap on stacks.

Putting a cap on conditions pushes players (in medium and big groups) to adopt only direct damage builds/professions. This is just as bad as putting a cap on direct damage based on the number of people attacking the target and pushing players away from direct damage builds.

Ulari (opinion/thoughts previously posted in an older topic)

I will have to agree, compared to how easily conditions are to apply both bleed and vulnerability these 2 seems to be capped permanently, and while a cap on vulnerability isn’t really bad a cap on bleed truly results in a complete loss of damage.

The easiest way would probably be to make it be a per person limit as that should not screw the balance between burn and bleed, as we must assume that a single character whose damage is based on burning and a character whose damage is based on bleeds should be similar.

As suggested by others this could be made so that it does not work on players, where the current implementation is kept, or at least a condition cleanse should remove all bleeds like it does now, no matter the source

It seems to me that the OP and others want the Bosses to adapt to their play style rather than the players to adapt to the situation. It would be like saying take away Burn Immunity from XX boss because I like to use fire skills. I think they need to adapt to the situation instead.

By design most group events are fast moving fast kill scenarios with the Boss appearing at the end. High DPS is the only way to get a Gold consistently. Most of the pre-boss mob go down in a second or less. Even Veterans and Captains go down in a few seconds a big stack of DOTs would do no good on those.

I was often getting only Silver in some of the Centaur raid events until I switched to a high power high precision somewhat Glass Cannon build on my Ranger. Now I’m almost always Gold Medalled in any event. I even carry a set of +Vit/Health/toughness gear around when I want to become less squishy.

I really don’t think this needs to be changed. Those events are optional so those players should just go somewhere else where their condition based build has advantages over DPS builds.

Well after reading all this and playing a Conditionbuild by myself (Ele with 2k conditiondmg) I would simply suggest this:

Make the cap dynamic instead of fixed or unlimited.
For example limit it to the level / 2 (so level 80 = 40 cap or Level 36 = 18 cap) or smth similar. Of course this is not fixing the problem with the shared cap, but the amount of max. damage we can do. You should not remove the cap entirely because don’t forget: Even while you running, falling down or whatever, you still make damage. While a direct damage dealer always has to be active to do more damage over time. With an unlimited amount of stacks this would end up in a way to much damage over time.

To fix the problem with the “shared” damage, it should be instanced for you like it was always suggested.

(sorry for my bad english, it is not my main tongue)

What if they didn’t change the cap but if you apply a duplicate bleed to a monster at cap you both get credit for the damage? It wouldn’t actually do the extra damage but since both necromancers (or whoever) would get credit the problem would be solved with no changes to the overall system.

You think bleeds have it bad? HA! Try fire ! If you try to burn someone with a circle of fire, watch out for team mates shooting projectiles, because now they set the target on fire too, and their weak burns are clogging up the stronger burns in duration.

As far as I can tell, Poison and Burns do somehow add to the damage. Each burn added increases both the damage done each tick, and how long the burn lasts. But it seems like some damage is munched, because on my own I do something like 120~ damage each tick. With a friend, that damage went up to like 180~ damage, and with three people it was back down to I think 130~ damage.

So the damage is being spread around, but it seems each individual person is doing less damage the more people there are doing burns or poisons.

NinjaKnight.1340:

It seems to me that the OP and others want the Bosses to adapt to their play style rather than the players to adapt to the situation. It would be like saying take away Burn Immunity from XX boss because I like to use fire skills. I think they need to adapt to the situation instead.

and let’s assume that the only viable spec for elementalists and guardians was burning damage based, because that’s the problem that we have here, necros CAN’T ajust their playstyle because bleeds and to a FAR lesser extent, poison, are all they have.

minion AI is awful to the point that it’s a coin toss whether they’ll even attack or not, and their health is so low that if the boss so much as farts, all minions get instagibbed and DD is out because the power spec is utterkitten bleeds are really the only option for necros right now.

as an aside, imagine if ANet changed fight mechanics so that only the first 25 players to hit with a DD attack worked, everyone else just hit for 0, because that’s what is happening at the moment for bleeds, in fact, it’s worse, since in that analogy, you have 25 players doing damage, 3 players can hit the bleed cap, so even in that example, DD STILL beats bleeds

NinjaKnight.1340:

It seems to me that the OP and others want the Bosses to adapt to their play style rather than the players to adapt to the situation. It would be like saying take away Burn Immunity from XX boss because I like to use fire skills. I think they need to adapt to the situation instead.

By design most group events are fast moving fast kill scenarios with the Boss appearing at the end. High DPS is the only way to get a Gold consistently. Most of the pre-boss mob go down in a second or less. Even Veterans and Captains go down in a few seconds a big stack of DOTs would do no good on those.

I was often getting only Silver in some of the Centaur raid events until I switched to a high power high precision somewhat Glass Cannon build on my Ranger. Now I’m almost always Gold Medalled in any event. I even carry a set of +Vit/Health/toughness gear around when I want to become less squishy.

I really don’t think this needs to be changed. Those events are optional so those players should just go somewhere else where their condition based build has advantages over DPS builds.

Adapting your playstyle to the boss’ means something like how with the Fire Elemental you need to get inside the room and not hang back like you normally would. It does NOT mean that the boss should, by its very nature, utterly invalidate 1 of the 2 methods of dealing damage in the game, especially when certain classes (namely necromancer) largely can only deal that type of damage.

Also, considering conditions are all ABOUT DPS, since they only have DoTs, they should honestly be BETTER against enemies that take a long time to take down, compared to how direct damage is better for disposing of weaker enemies, namely groups, more quickly, since it doesn’t have to wait on the DoTs. Except it’s broken now, where condition builds get screwed in both situations

Zanktus.9821:

Even while you running, falling down or whatever, you still make damage. While a direct damage dealer always has to be active to do more damage over time. With an unlimited amount of stacks this would end up in a way to much damage over time.

You realize that being incapacitated while applying Bleed stacks means that you do less damage later, right?
Meaning that though you are still dealing damage at that time, your overall damage goes down, just as it would for a direct damage dealer?

Wasselin.1235:

What if they didn’t change the cap but if you apply a duplicate bleed to a monster at cap you both get credit for the damage? It wouldn’t actually do the extra damage but since both necromancers (or whoever) would get credit the problem would be solved with no changes to the overall system.

The condition builds would still be as utterly useless as they are now then, the only difference would be that they’d be getting rewarded.
The underlying problem is still bad and still present.

gimmethegepgun.1284:

NinjaKnight.1340:

It seems to me that the OP and others want the Bosses to adapt to their play style rather than the players to adapt to the situation. It would be like saying take away Burn Immunity from XX boss because I like to use fire skills. I think they need to adapt to the situation instead.

By design most group events are fast moving fast kill scenarios with the Boss appearing at the end. High DPS is the only way to get a Gold consistently. Most of the pre-boss mob go down in a second or less. Even Veterans and Captains go down in a few seconds a big stack of DOTs would do no good on those.

I was often getting only Silver in some of the Centaur raid events until I switched to a high power high precision somewhat Glass Cannon build on my Ranger. Now I’m almost always Gold Medalled in any event. I even carry a set of +Vit/Health/toughness gear around when I want to become less squishy.

I really don’t think this needs to be changed. Those events are optional so those players should just go somewhere else where their condition based build has advantages over DPS builds.

Adapting your playstyle to the boss’ means something like how with the Fire Elemental you need to get inside the room and not hang back like you normally would. It does NOT mean that the boss should, by its very nature, utterly invalidate 1 of the 2 methods of dealing damage in the game, especially when certain classes (namely necromancer) largely can only deal that type of damage.

Also, considering conditions are all ABOUT DPS, since they only have DoTs, they should honestly be BETTER against enemies that take a long time to take down, compared to how direct damage is better for disposing of weaker enemies, namely groups, more quickly, since it doesn’t have to wait on the DoTs. Except it’s broken now, where condition builds get screwed in both situations

Adapting playstyle can mean different things using different weapons and skills and in some cases even changing build.

And I guess I meant high DD DPS.

I haven’t played my Necro for a while but I’m pretty sure it does have DD weapon skills.

Besides, it isn’t as if a Condition build can’t survive a boss fight, it is just that they don’t get a Gold. If that is such a big deal then rebuild for the fight.