Guild Wars 2

SniffyCube.6107:

Simply put, arenanet has made no acknowledgement that the server rankings are broken. If a full reset isn’t on the table then fine, I can see why higher tier servers would not want to go through the grind of roflstomping less population, but that’s what we go through week after week.

There have been a lot of creative suggestions about how we can solve this problem without affecting ANY of the other servers. Honestly, t8 endures the worst beatings and point deficits of any bracket. DR kain were first stuck beating up on smaller servers then once they broke out they soared through the rankings (after getting more players as they progressed but they could have easily made tier 5-6 with their populations before the explosions).

I have seen a lot of players from my server and FC post about this and I have even talked to a few players from SF that are looking for a better fight.

Here are some suggestions and conversations I have had. I feel they better represent how we as a tier feel (please don’t post here if you’re going to troll from another tier, this does not affect you).

Coz T8 servers are weak at WvW. Extremelly weak.
Deal with that.
Or transfer to the upper tiers if you are love WvW

SilverWF.4789:

SniffyCube.6107:

Simply put, arenanet has made no acknowledgement that the server rankings are broken. If a full reset isn’t on the table then fine, I can see why higher tier servers would not want to go through the grind of roflstomping less population, but that’s what we go through week after week.

There have been a lot of creative suggestions about how we can solve this problem without affecting ANY of the other servers. Honestly, t8 endures the worst beatings and point deficits of any bracket. DR kain were first stuck beating up on smaller servers then once they broke out they soared through the rankings (after getting more players as they progressed but they could have easily made tier 5-6 with their populations before the explosions).

I have seen a lot of players from my server and FC post about this and I have even talked to a few players from SF that are looking for a better fight.

Here are some suggestions and conversations I have had. I feel they better represent how we as a tier feel (please don’t post here if you’re going to troll from another tier, this does not affect you).

Coz T8 servers are weak at WvW. Extremelly weak.
Deal with that.
Or transfer to the upper tiers if you are love WvW

What part of “please don’t post here if you’re going to troll from another tier, this does not affect you” did you not understand?
We KNOW the T8 is weak. We’re trying to make it better. If you can’t read properly do you “deal with it”? Or transfer to some better body? No, you try and work on the problem.

Scleameth.6809:

SilverWF.4789:

SniffyCube.6107:

Simply put, arenanet has made no acknowledgement that the server rankings are broken. If a full reset isn’t on the table then fine, I can see why higher tier servers would not want to go through the grind of roflstomping less population, but that’s what we go through week after week.

There have been a lot of creative suggestions about how we can solve this problem without affecting ANY of the other servers. Honestly, t8 endures the worst beatings and point deficits of any bracket. DR kain were first stuck beating up on smaller servers then once they broke out they soared through the rankings (after getting more players as they progressed but they could have easily made tier 5-6 with their populations before the explosions).

I have seen a lot of players from my server and FC post about this and I have even talked to a few players from SF that are looking for a better fight.

Here are some suggestions and conversations I have had. I feel they better represent how we as a tier feel (please don’t post here if you’re going to troll from another tier, this does not affect you).

Coz T8 servers are weak at WvW. Extremelly weak.
Deal with that.
Or transfer to the upper tiers if you are love WvW

What part of “please don’t post here if you’re going to troll from another tier, this does not affect you” did you not understand?
We KNOW the T8 is weak. We’re trying to make it better. If you can’t read properly do you “deal with it”? Or transfer to some better body? No, you try and work on the problem.

Dat great, but what it does in the Suggestions to Devs forum? Go to your own server or WvW forum

Because it got moved here from the WvW forum?

ANet doesn’t look at those forums, threads have been up for
a month now.

I dropped a summary on the gw2 reddit, please let me know if there’s anything I missed or could clarify:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/18wb2i/when_the_wvw_ratings_break/

And upvote, of course.

SoggyFrog.4170:

I dropped a summary on the gw2 reddit, please let me know if there’s anything I missed or could clarify:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/18wb2i/when_the_wvw_ratings_break/

And upvote, of course.

Thanks for that!

English is not my native language, however. I am a player of Sorrow’s Furnace, I recently started playing wvw and I must say I pleased to know that we were powerful. Was not always so. When free transfers were by the end there was a new birth in the T8 wvw dynamics. I must say that I do not know the mechanics to go up a tier but I thought we would do it eventually. But we are still there and I see Not only that, we are hurting the game to two other servers.

I have always thought that the GW2 community is one of the nicest I have ever been and I do not like this situation. I am a solo player without much voice but I’ll try asking at least a little more kindness in the jumping puzzle and perhaps more balance in the game to my fellow server. Furthermore it is becoming boring to all servers this situation. I hope my writing was ok. And I sincerely hope that ANet solves this issue.

SoggyFrog.4170:

I dropped a summary on the gw2 reddit, please let me know if there’s anything I missed or could clarify:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/18wb2i/when_the_wvw_ratings_break/

And upvote, of course.

Saw this on reddit, fully support fixing this, for both the T8 players and the game itself, came here to bump. Please fix it ANet.

/bump

It would be incredibly nice to at least be acknowledged by ANet… a simple “Hey guys, we hear you, we’re looking at options and while we don’t have anything immediately, we will update you guys when we come to a solution” would literally make everyone on FC/ET/SF jump for joy.

What we really need immediately is acknowledgement of the problem and something to help us raise morale and WvW interest in all three servers. Right now, all three are losing players from WvW because of how stagnant the matchup has become. There are probably even people leaving the game because WvW is a large portion of what they enjoy and if they aren’t putting the game down, they’re transferring out of T8 to another server and that’s just making the problem worse.

In fact, I had someone from TC whisper me yesterday after posting in another thread try and recruit me to TC. I politely declined and found out from two other SF players who were on the thread that they were also approached by the same individual. Not that I particularly care, but this is kinda low and recruitment like this leaves a sour taste in my mouth (at least for this particular individual, I <3 TC and one individual does not make a whole server).

Anyway, at this point the biggest issue is player morale and interest. It’s fastly fading on both sides of the beatdown and it’s starting to worry me a bit…

I feel for you guys in FC. It may interest you to know that before the transfers, Kaineng was regarded as T5/6 material. I daresay FC is the same, since I’ve heard you have more numbers than when we were both being steamrolled by Devona. Having said that, I fear that unless Anet does something about this, this situation will continue. Quite a bad thing for there are several guilds in FC I still have respect for (WZ, TTA…). Same for ET. Know your struggle in T8 is not forgotten by at least this Kaineng member.

Ultimate solution for this one:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/iR-Game-Mechanism/first#post1459829

“Follow the White Rabbit!”

TTA is in Borlis and WZ is not doing well either.. almost everyone in FC has had their morale completely obliterated. In fact, after I transferred and went to WvW, I was whispered by several friends who were asking why I would waste my time in WvW for the t8 matchup before I explained that I moved.

Darek.1836:

TTA is in Borlis and WZ is not doing well either.. almost everyone in FC has had their morale completely obliterated. In fact, after I transferred and went to WvW, I was whispered by several friends who were asking why I would waste my time in WvW for the t8 matchup before I explained that I moved.

I’m so sorry to hear this Moobs. This was my fear when ArenaNet backpedaled on their decision to reset the WvW ratings and am really saddened to actually see it coming to pass. Things will sort themselves out in time my bum.

No server should have to go what you guys have went through for so incredibly long. And nobody should feel so demoralized that they feel the only option for WvW is to change servers. The free server transfers went on for far too long and sadly, I think whatever fixes ArenaNet comes up with to fix the Tier 8 ratings pit (if they actually ever do so) will be too little too late for many Tier 8 players.

I have a sinking suspicion that the “solution” to this issue is going to essentially be “wait it out, and watch as more and more people leave SF, until they’re on par with ET/FC to make T8 more competitive.”

I guess it WOULD solve the whole “there is no 3rd T8 server,” but I can’t help but feel bad for the situation it puts SF into.

My feeling is that it’s already too late to do any repair work from Anet’s side. We were hoping for some kind of acknowledgement here, but since there’s been no word, people just moved on…
SF won’t see many transfers in my opinion. They just have to wait 2 or 3 weeks to move up to T7. ET showed some renewed spirit, but FC is showing dwindling numbers (at least in my time zone only 5 players in 2 hours on EB). I’m not sure how many FC players are in hiding until SF moves up and see what can be done against the server moving down to T8. But if the new server is better than SF then there’s no real answer and I suspect that even ET players will start transferring, leaving T8 a ghost town for the “4th place” T7 to roam about and get map completion or fight NPCs in WvW.

Labarge.1439:

I have a sinking suspicion that the “solution” to this issue is going to essentially be “wait it out, and watch as more and more people leave SF, until they’re on par with ET/FC to make T8 more competitive.”

I guess it WOULD solve the whole “there is no 3rd T8 server,” but I can’t help but feel bad for the situation it puts SF into.

This is the suspicion I have as well…In fact it wouldn’t surprise me if the “off the record” feeling is that well its T8 and in reality just 3 servers. I mean why transfer 1 out, and then have a new miserable T8 to break in and have complain on forums etc.

Darek.1836:

ANet doesn’t look at those forums, threads have been up for
a month now.

I’m sure, they do not visiting this forum too.
God, who will watching all of this threads placed at… 654 pages?!
Noone.

just returned from WvW and I’m done. No more. I’ll take the last position and get map completion in the red zone. Then see if my guild will move with me to another server.
there was about 20 SF and about 10 FC. now we’re just trying to get 1v1 duels…. when one of us gets the upper hand then a few of them steps in and mops the floor with us. Just the last straw for me. I’m not spending another dime on upgrades or siege. FC feels dead to me tbh. no more fighting spirit left at all – nada.

*Kudos to the SF mesmer, though — you are one tough sob and I hope my mesmer can one day cause the same kind of frustration to opposite numbers than you have.

Scleameth.6809:

just returned from WvW and I’m done. No more. I’ll take the last position and get map completion in the red zone. Then see if my guild will move with me to another server.
there was about 20 SF and about 10 FC. now we’re just trying to get 1v1 duels…. when one of us gets the upper hand then a few of them steps in and mops the floor with us. Just the last straw for me. I’m not spending another dime on upgrades or siege. FC feels dead to me tbh. no more fighting spirit left at all – nada.

*Kudos to the SF mesmer, though — you are one tough sob and I hope my mesmer can one day cause the same kind of frustration to opposite numbers than you have.

^I hope the same thing. I also wonder how him vs. Andromeda would go. Or him vs Osicat.

As far as frustration, I hear you. It’s getting harder to be gung-ho in a situation where we’re rather completely Catch-22’d. I’d have to say the only thing that keeps me involved is that I’m a stubborn S.O.B.

if youre talking about the king mesmer, andro was better

if lyss or thcc or other… not sure

Bumping and I need more characters so here ya go.

Just helping keep the thread bumped before turning in.

SoggyFrog.4170:

I dropped a summary on the gw2 reddit, please let me know if there’s anything I missed or could clarify:

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/18wb2i/when_the_wvw_ratings_break/

And upvote, of course.

+1!

SoggyFrog, you are my hero. When I start my religion about you, are there any particular rituals you wish to be practiced?

Jokes aside, you not only summed everything up perfectly, this problem doesn’t even directly affect you for the most part. That post would have taken at least 2 hours to make, if not 5, considering you must’ve had to have read through the entire thread while typing it up to hit all of the key points so well.

From everyone in T8, thank you.

I’m gonna say, the suggestions I really like are the ones of giving the tier 8 ratings a floor, or those of doing just more balancing in general in terms of the rating gaps between tiers. There are people from other tiers even with less than half the rating gap between tiers that tier 8 to tier 7 suffers, and even they complain now and then about shifts taking too long.

I agree that at least there should not necessarily be a change every single week, but why not every second or third week? Anything more than two weeks of 300k+ domination is too much if you ask me, and we’d at least love a shot at different tier 7 servers falling into tier 8 now and then. This process should not take 2 months like it does.

I agree with providing stable balanced match ups, but there’s a definite problem when Glicko2 is going out of its way to stabilize imbalanced match ups like what is happening in tier 8. Entire servers just can’t be treated as single entities with an equal chance to win when there’s such number and time zone coverage disparities between so many servers.

As it stands in almost all cases, a winning server has that factor determined by numbers and coverage, not high tier strategy and skill. And unfortunately, its a lot more demoralizing to a group of players to be consistently matched against numbers they already know at the beginning of the week that they will lose to, and to proceed with it for months on end before seeing any variation. Who’s to say for example we wouldn’t have a better shot against HoD or GoM? No offense, but that’s something you can only test practically, but the rating system makes such things take so grotesquely long that by the time a server moves up from tier 8, people are tired out and already thinking of moving servers to tiers where that phenomena does not occur.

Heck, look at DR and Kaineng and how tier 8 and 7 compared in the match history. Tier 8 in both cases actually maintained significantly higher scores against Devona’s Rest and Kaineng than tier 7 did. Sorrow’s Furnace IMO fell down with tier 7 numbers, and we still had a great match up for two weeks. Then their numbers boomed to imo tier 6+ numbers/coverage and the match up after that? Not so great. At the point where the numbers boomed, week by week victory was already determined, it shouldn’t take them any more than two weeks to advance at that point. We already know the results will be the same for months at the current trend, so there’s no need to play them for months. Just because they can pull this off, doesn’t mean HoD or GoM necessarily could, or that they couldn’t.. but that’s something that can only be truly said for certain if one of them drops to face us and physically tested. Instead of asking what if one of them drops and its more of the same, what if one of them drops and we do much better, seeing that our biggest weakness against SF is its night-cap crew if either of these servers in tier 7 are more NA focused and less present at night like SF is, we may actually do A LOT better against them.

But the point is, these things we would like to see and test physically, we never get the chance to because of this rating gap. Lots of people come in here saying its working as intended, why can’t they explain to me how it is that tier 8 servers held out BETTER SCORES against Devona’s Rest and Kaineng than tier 7 did in both cases, on a consistent week by week basis at that?

So please, spare me the old misconceptions of tier 8 being some funnel of weaklings, unless you think Devona’s Rest and Kaineng were “weak servers” for being stuck in here for weeks longer than any other tier they faced until they reached equal numbers.

We’re not even asking for FC and ET to be bumped up to tier 7, where not even necessarily asking for HoD or GoM to be bumped down, we’re asking for this process to happen at the same average pace HERE as it does in others. Because as it stands, domination advancement literally takes twice-three times as long here as it does in other tiers, especially when Glicko2 starts making improvement projections for the winning server’s score and punishes their weekly rating increase for not living up to it.

The reason that this Glicko2 function of lowering rating increases when a server doesn’t improve at the rate it projects is much larger problem for tier 8 than any other tier is that, in other tiers by the time a server winning with 350k+ gets its weekly rating increases decreased dramatically, they’ve already acquired enough rating to advance within a week or two in most cases. In tier 8, by the time this comes in to play, the winning server has only won half the race, and maybe gotten its rating from the 600 region to 900. Then it STILL has to get it from 900 to 1023+ yet its weekly rating drops from +54 to +14, to +5 and so on because of Glicko 2. And that 900 to 1023 period unless the other servers hand in the towel, could take upwards of a quarter year going with the reduced rating numbers Glicko2 hands out to the winning server.

So there’s two separate factors going into the problem of tier 8- tier 7 advancement, the first factor is the grotesquely low ratings, the second is that Glicko 2 reduces the ratings of the winning server far too quickly in tier 8, and they function in synergy to make this a much harder gap to bridge than that of any other tier. Because of how much more steep the rating gap is here, the “ratings punishment” comes in to the winning server far too quickly, when they’re only half way out at most.

This is unacceptable for servers in any tier, and a simple fix that works for everyone in every tier without ruining the balance that is present, a solution that works for everyone, be it in putting a cap on rating falls so that there would be a floor to reach, tweaking this Glicko2 improvement prediction function so that it doesn’t treat tier 8 as if we had the same rating gap other tiers do, or whatever would be in mind. A solution that works for everyone should be easily achievable, but people have to be willing to admit that there is a problem there. It may even be present in other tiers to a degree, but its exaggerated like mad down here. Looking at the EU tier 9 rankings also reveals the same problem. There’s more than enough evidence, historical and current to conclude that the Glicko2 system is poorly managing bottom tiers, and some say the top tier gap also. To be able to manage this, if you’re not gonna remove it ArenaNet, please at least give it some tweaks so we’re treated the same as every other tier. A floor to ratings, new algorithms, tweaking how Glicko2 reduces the rating increases of servers that are having blowout victories, its one thing to keep a balanced match-up maintained as long as possible, but Glicko2 has to first produce that balanced match up and yet its extremely poorly equipped to produce that balanced match up in a timely fashion in its current state, and especially so for tier 8 NA and tier 9 EU. It may be a good system, but there are things its just not made to handle, and it needs assistance to get these things right, more assistance than simply posting “Give it time” because a quarter year is too much kitten time.

Thread dropped all the way to page 4.
But yeah, as said tons of times before, we really need ANet to at least comment on this as to whether they’re going to do anything or just cower and wait until everyone in T8 has quit.

Hateful as it sounds, it seems -atm- that your second idea is the one we’re seeing play out, Darek. Unless they’ve got some Super-Asuran-Ninja stuff in the works, and things upgrade. Hope for the best, prep for the worst … that’s what I’m going by.

Back to page 1 with you!

Yeah, I’d have to agree with Advent at the moment. Super-Asuran-Ninja stuff not withstanding, T8 giving up and moving on first seems the most likely. Hopefully ANet will at least respond to this thread soon (with more than an auto-generated message!). Preferably before this thread hits its tenth page from thread bumps…

However, at the current rate things are going, there’s not going to be anybody left in T8 to respond to. As much as it’s only anecdotal evidence, easily half of the people I once knew on T8 have already moved on. That’s never a good sign.

AND WE SHALL STAY HERE ON PAGE 1!

Bumping to page 1.

Clarification or a simple reply from arena net themselves would be nice and put alot of peoples mind to rest (it is called PR a net, use it.).

Heading back to page 1

WvW was never designed or even remotely intended to be balanced.

It’s a numbers game, and always will be, and it simply doesn’t matter enough to deserve any dev’s attention at all. Everyone who enjoys it should either go to real PvP, or back to DAoC.

Nels the Cornwhisperer.8025:

WvW was never designed or even remotely intended to be balanced.

It’s a numbers game, and always will be, and it simply doesn’t matter enough to deserve any dev’s attention at all. Everyone who enjoys it should either go to real PvP, or back to DAoC.

Huh? So…the tiers are in place for what reason? As you’ve stated, WvW isn’t supposed to be balanced, especially in regards to the numbers a server can field. This leaves me grasping at straws to figure out why we have a tier system that seperates the servers based on score (for the most part).

Since score is primarily influenced by the numbers a server can field, the final score a server gets is supposed to influence what rating a server has, and the rating a server has influences what tier the server is in, do you truly believe that a semblance of balance was never intended to happen?

Please, post more insightful comments that at least imply you’ve read through the thread and thought about it. Drive-by postings that shoot down a perceived discussion that isn’t even happening are generally frowned upon. Based off the times of your post history, the length of your post, and what your post actually had in it, I’d be surprised if you read anything more than the thread title and the OP post.

Also, you state that the best course of action for people like us, who do actually enjoy WvW, is to ignore WvW and go do something else? The two alternative options you’ve given seem to include either doing something so far removed from WvW as to alienate people who enjoy WvW, or leaving the game for another.

So…your response is either “You’re not having fun correctly. You’re supposed to have fun like this,” or “ANet doesn’t want your increase in revenue.” Yay for sound business strategies.

In parting, bumping the thread was appreciated. Thank you.

Takerukun.8924:

Nels the Cornwhisperer.8025:

WvW was never designed or even remotely intended to be balanced.

It’s a numbers game, and always will be, and it simply doesn’t matter enough to deserve any dev’s attention at all. Everyone who enjoys it should either go to real PvP, or back to DAoC.

Huh? So…the tiers are in place for what reason? As you’ve stated, WvW isn’t supposed to be balanced, especially in regards to the numbers a server can field. This leaves me grasping at straws to figure out why we have a tier system that seperates the servers based on score (for the most part).

Since score is primarily influenced by the numbers a server can field, the final score a server gets is supposed to influence what rating a server has, and the rating a server has influences what tier the server is in, do you truly believe that a semblance of balance was never intended to happen?

Please, post more insightful comments that at least imply you’ve read through the thread and thought about it. Drive-by postings that shoot down a perceived discussion that isn’t even happening are generally frowned upon. Based off the times of your post history, the length of your post, and what your post actually had in it, I’d be surprised if you read anything more than the thread title and the OP post.

Also, you state that the best course of action for people like us, who do actually enjoy WvW, is to ignore WvW and go do something else? The two alternative options you’ve given seem to include either doing something so far removed from WvW as to alienate people who enjoy WvW, or leaving the game for another.

So…your response is either “You’re not having fun correctly. You’re supposed to have fun like this,” or “ANet doesn’t want your increase in revenue.” Yay for sound business strategies.

In parting, bumping the thread was appreciated. Thank you.

Ok, let me break this down for you:

Tiers are in place to make the people who want to feel like they did something get to feel like they did something. It also keeps it at least somewhat organized, so that the same servers will will always be accusing the same other servers of hacking the game to fly. It makes it so that you can easily ignore most of the complaints that come from sore losers.

You can’t change up the fact that Tier 8 is where the servers that don’t care belong. What you can do is go to a server in a bracket where people do care. No matter what A-net does, there will always be people that do not care about WvW, and they’ll usually cluster together on one or two servers.

This isn’t a problem though. To do a total reset would be temporary at best, until the best got back to the top, and the worst drifted back to the bottom. And even then, it’s simply not worth doing, because it’s effecting the two farthest ends (and thus the smallest amount) of the spectrum.

If you made the matchups completely random, by an A-net employee simply drawing server names out of a hat and making that order the next WvW bracket order, the Tier 8 servers would still lose to everyone but each other, all the time.

While random drawing would certainly shake up the stagnant bits for the very bottom and very top servers, it would shake up a system that works for the other six brackets. Your problem with things not being to your liking in your bracket, on your server, is simple. Leave your server/bracket. If you don’t want to do that, there’s other games out there (DAoC) where you’ll find a lot more people who enjoy the type of gaming that WvW provides you, and in all likelihood, you’ll enjoy it more.

Nels the Cornwhisperer.8025:

Ok, let me break this down for you:

Tiers are in place to make the people who want to feel like they did something get to feel like they did something. It also keeps it at least somewhat organized, so that the same servers will will always be accusing the same other servers of hacking the game to fly. It makes it so that you can easily ignore most of the complaints that come from sore losers.

You can’t change up the fact that Tier 8 is where the servers that don’t care belong. What you can do is go to a server in a bracket where people do care. No matter what A-net does, there will always be people that do not care about WvW, and they’ll usually cluster together on one or two servers.

This isn’t a problem though. To do a total reset would be temporary at best, until the best got back to the top, and the worst drifted back to the bottom. And even then, it’s simply not worth doing, because it’s effecting the two farthest ends (and thus the smallest amount) of the spectrum.

If you made the matchups completely random, by an A-net employee simply drawing server names out of a hat and making that order the next WvW bracket order, the Tier 8 servers would still lose to everyone but each other, all the time.

While random drawing would certainly shake up the stagnant bits for the very bottom and very top servers, it would shake up a system that works for the other six brackets. Your problem with things not being to your liking in your bracket, on your server, is simple. Leave your server/bracket. If you don’t want to do that, there’s other games out there (DAoC) where you’ll find a lot more people who enjoy the type of gaming that WvW provides you, and in all likelihood, you’ll enjoy it more.

You know, for a second there, I was really happy. When I read “let me break this down for you,” I thought someone had finally come into this thread in opposition to it who was willing to back up their claims. And you did. However, you also crushed that joy as I continued reading.

You only proved me right.

With every counter argument you put forward, you only proved that you clearly didn’t take the time to read the entire thread. Could random people stop coming into this thread and talk like we’re asking for a ratings reset, or for a round-robin, psuedo-random opponent pool. This thread is debating the issue in ratings gap between T8 and T7, created primarily through lack of a lower rating floor for the bottom tier, along with the damage free transfers caused. The resulting problem from this issue is that servers in T8 who belong in tiers above T8 (DR, then Kain, now SF) cannot advance at a viable rate, taking months to advance even with continued blowouts.

This thread is not about the ratings reset! The removal of the ratings reset merely caused this thread to come about as a way of saying “Okay, we get that was a bad idea. However, the problem a ratings reset would have lessened in T8 still persists. What else can we do to fix it?”

This thread is not about T8 not caring about WvW. We would not have made this thread if that was the case. This thread is not about us being too lazy to transfer! This argument has been attacked by everyone still in T8 at one point or another, and re-typing it here would simply add another two pages to this post.

So, again: please post more than a drive-by comment. When you appear to have read the thread and seem up-to-date, I’ll take your arguments seriously. Until then, thanks for the bump!

Most people in Tier 8 don’t care about WvW. Most people that do care about WvW move around to the places where the competition’s still happening. You are too lazy to transfer, and most of the people on your servers do not care about you or WvW.

If you can show me long queues and constantly full battlegrounds for at least two days between monday and thursday, I’ll consider that you have a point. Until then, you belong on the losing end.

Nels the Cornwhisperer.8025:

Most people in Tier 8 don’t care about WvW. Most people that do care about WvW move around to the places where the competition’s still happening. You are too lazy to transfer, and most of the people on your servers do not care about you or WvW.

If you can show me long queues and constantly full battlegrounds for at least two days between monday and thursday, I’ll consider that you have a point. Until then, you belong on the losing end.

A civil yet assertive debater? My God, I guess I’ll have to give this a shot regardless. Thank you for adding to the threads contents. As to the debate:

Yes, there are probably a lot of people in T8 who don’t care about WvW. But I know there’s still a fair number who do. I would not see queues ever if this were not the case. I do see queues on occasion. Never for very long, and never on every map, I’ll give you that. However, T2 might even be hard-pressed to live up to your challenge. T4 and below wouldn’t ever meet your challenge.

This leads to the main problem with your argument of lazyness. “If you aren’t lazy, and you care about WvW, you would transfer to a tier where they have long queue times,” is essentially what you have said.

Let me try to explain the fatal flaws in this way of thinking. You see, it only encourages people to bandwagon to about 9 servers if they wish to WvW in order to ensure full coverage and queue times. The problem with encouraging queue times, is that queue times mean the people who wish to WvW cannot get into WvW.

From a quality of service point of view, do you think ANet should encourage people who WvW to flock to servers with long queue times, or encourage people to balance themselves between the servers and minimize queue times? Who wants to play a game they may or may not be able to play when they try to play it?

On top of that, many players enjoy the atmosphere that WvW on the small scale affords. There’s a sense of banding together and community that you won’t find on servers where you are one faceless zergling (albiet, probably not a mindless zergling) among the horde. Not to mention culling is almost non-existant in lower tiers.

Now, to your assertion that “we belong on the losing end,” I’m going to have to ask again if you read even the post that you quoted. We aren’t complaining that we’re losing. We are complaining that the T8 server anomaly that used to be DR, was then Kain, and is now SF, cannot get out of T8. If you replaced SF with JQ next week, they would still probably have more than a single week of JQ curbstomping T8 before it advanced to T7.

That is the issue. If a server that belongs in T7 or above falls to T8, it cannot get out, and a potentially better suited server for T8 cannot get in.

Please, do not just fling around accusations that we are simply “lazy” because we enjoy true T8 gameplay. Do not just say “T8 deserves to lose” when we are not whining about losing. There are people from SF in this thread in support of it. Do you think they are complaining about “losing”?

If you continue the debate right after this, my apologies for any delayed response. Sleep calls me.