Guild Wars 2

While I agree with the Op in that this game is sadly missing something, I am not sure what it is. I don’t think raids are the way forward, as IMO it will attract more grind elements in the way of rewards, armour etc.

Layka.7465:

All I know is that all the games that copied WoW sadly disappear sooner or later.

I agree that most games do sadly fade away, however, GW2 brings somthing else to the party that other MMOs have not, graphics are a lot more superior just for a start.

Azzrael Deathbane.4965:

While I agree with the Op in that this game is sadly missing something, I am not sure what it is. I don’t think raids are the way forward, as IMO it will attract more grind elements in the way of rewards, armour etc.

Layka.7465:

All I know is that all the games that copied WoW sadly disappear sooner or later.

I agree that most games do sadly fade away, however, GW2 brings somthing else to the party that other MMOs have not, graphics are a lot more superior just for a start.

Everyone says this. It’ll add grind. It doesn’t have to. No one is asking for a grind. They’re asking for content. Just because other games have a gear treadmill grind doesn’t mean, at all that GW2 has to be that way.

I wish people would think outside of the box when they hear raids and consider what ArenaNet’s vision of it would be if they were to do them.

Grind isn’t always a bad thing either. Grind means effort. Effort means satisfaction when a reward is given. As long as the grind isn’t boring and not fun. Making content fun and rewarding in of itself with a reward for doing it more than once is a solid game design.

No one says that Mario is grindy. Why? Because it’s fun to play over and over again. Why must content only be good once in an MMO before people start complaining anyhow?

If ANet planned for raids they should have thought before they introduced FotM and Ascended gear – Because I know a lot of people that would take that as a third strike in such short time. If I want Raids I’d go back to WoW because they do it right, I could very well see exclusive things for raiders which will be another reason for the player base to freak.

WoW doesn’t do raids very well, to be honest. Their mechanics are always rehashes of other raids from the past at this point.

ArenaNet has a real opportunity to do something different with raids. With the fast that the trinity is abolished in this game, raid mechanics have to be different. Because there’s no trinity, it means you can bring anyone.. you dont need to hunt for a healer or a tank, etc.

Having exclusive items for doing content is fine, so long as the items aren’t more powerful than anything else in game.

It’s almost like there’s a part of this community who believes that everyone should get a trophy, win, lose or draw.

If I don’t do the 5 man Explorables, I don’t get their dungeon set. Do the work, you get the rewards. Just like if I don’t put the time in to get my legendary, I don’t have one to show for it.

Raiding content is just a different kind of work. Defeat difficult content, get a title, or a skin and some tokens for a dungeon set. Shows you did the content and can show off you’re new shiny stuff. Same way you would show off your new shiny legendary.

Azzrael Deathbane.4965:

While I agree with the Op in that this game is sadly missing something, I am not sure what it is. I don’t think raids are the way forward, as IMO it will attract more grind elements in the way of rewards, armour etc.

Layka.7465:

All I know is that all the games that copied WoW sadly disappear sooner or later.

I agree that most games do sadly fade away, however, GW2 brings somthing else to the party that other MMOs have not, graphics are a lot more superior just for a start.

What is wrong with having abit of grind? It’s one of the issues Anet have in GW2 imo. Grind is what gives people motivation to do stuff. Lack of grind is what makes people bored, feel like there is no content to do because none of it is rewarding enough to do it anymore than once and therefore leave because of being bored. Grind is what keeps players playing. It’s what gives people a reason to do content often instead of “I’ve done that before so there is no point to ever go back and redo it”. The dungeons in this game are good (Besides the zerg fest) but once you’ve done it once there is no reason to redo them, ever. Unless you want gear from that dungeon vendor but then even that only takes a week to aquire.

However, grind doesn’t have to mean better rewards. Just do the same as dungeons atm with it’s own armor and weapon skins that you can only get from that raid. That way nobody is forced to do raids and only have to do them if they want to get the skins or if they enjoy doing the raid itself.

Conwolv.4329:

ArenaNet has a real opportunity to do something different with raids. With the fast that the trinity is abolished in this game, raid mechanics have to be different. Because there’s no trinity, it means you can bring anyone.. you dont need to hunt for a healer or a tank, etc.

Having exclusive items for doing content is fine, so long as the items aren’t more powerful than anything else in game.

It’s almost like there’s a part of this community who believes that everyone should get a trophy, win, lose or draw.

If I don’t do the 5 man Explorables, I don’t get their dungeon set. Do the work, you get the rewards. Just like if I don’t put the time in to get my legendary, I don’t have one to show for it.

Raiding content is just a different kind of work. Defeat difficult content, get a title, or a skin and some tokens for a dungeon set. Shows you did the content and can show off you’re new shiny stuff. Same way you would show off your new shiny legendary.

Agreed, as long as the rewards are purely cosmetic or dungeon tokens etc. The issues arise when exotic gear becomes outdated by level. You only need to look back to the results of when fractals was introduced and the new ascended gear.

Maybe a bit of grind is what’s missing. It is pretty lame having eight dungeons (excluding Fractals) available at 80 that you can do, and not one of them gives better gear than the other. Depending on what stats you want you might have to do a different dungeons, but that’s about it.

I kind of miss the constant upgrading other games have. What is annoying is how those games are nothing but gear based and there is no skill involved with your class. All you needed to know was how to gear them and what rotation to use to get the most dps. I am glad ANet went down the path of making a game not all about gear and more about skill. But now I feel the game need something more.

I agree with conwolv, but I believe it was already confirmed there will be more features for the guild to come, they are just focusing on other aspects of the game at the moment. However I hope they get moving on guild stuff soon. I don’t have a real big guild, its made up of almost 30 players and NO ONE IS EVER ONLINE or they are not representing. I can’t keep the guild motivated if theirs nothing for the guild to do.

The guild I’m in now has 54 people on. 20 of them are in four groups of five doing fractals. With a large guild like this, I would like to see larger player cap instanced dungeons come, just to get more of the players together and not have to split up so much.

In this post ColinJohanson responses to bosses lacking in PvE with:

ColinJohanson.2394:

One of our goals for 2013 will be evaluating all of the bosses and creatures in the game, from open world to dungeons, to try and make them more exciting and fun to fight against.

In general if anything has a really high health pool, it needs to have unique abilities to make it exciting for the entire time, or actually change abilities/tactics as it goes down in health to ensure it stays fun and exciting to fight against.

We realize there are a number of bosses in the game, from the open world to instances that all can be more fun to fight than they are now. We’ll be tackling that this year in part of our goal to make our core game as strong as possible.

I don’t really expect to see these changes in the upcoming months of content, but I’m still hoping. Thanks for responding!

There are a lot of other MMOs out there that are beautifully catered towards raiders, I don’t see why GW2 has to be one of them as well.

I was/am attracted to the casual nature of GW2. Once raids are added games cease to be casual, IMO. Suddenly there’s a level of exclusivity. Raiders will always have the best everything: best gear, best titles, best vanity items, etc., basically leaving anyone who doesn’t like to raid inferior.

Plus, I can honestly say I’ve met very few people who raided for the enjoyment of it. They do it because it’s the only way to be “the best”. I’m not saying nobody enjoys it, but I really do believe that those who do enjoy raiding are a very small percentage of any given playerbase. It’s not something I’m convinced the masses would participate in or enjoy, so I’d rather see developmental resources go elsewhere.

Lane.3410:

Plus, I can honestly say I’ve met very few people who raided for the enjoyment of it. They do it because it’s the only way to be “the best”. I’m not saying nobody enjoys it, but I really do believe that those who do enjoy raiding are a very small percentage of any given playerbase.

That’s a great point. I genuinely enjoyed raiding in WoW for years, but I can remember countless guildies who literally hated raiding and the game itself, yet continued to raid 4 nights per week for well over a year because of the prestige it gave them when standing around in Orgrimmar sporting the latest tier armour/titles/mounts.

Lane.3410:

Plus, I can honestly say I’ve met very few people who raided for the enjoyment of it. They do it because it’s the only way to be “the best”. I’m not saying nobody enjoys it, but I really do believe that those who do enjoy raiding are a very small percentage of any given playerbase.

That’s a great point. I genuinely enjoyed raiding in WoW for years, but I can remember countless guildies who literally hated raiding and the game itself, yet continued to raid 4 nights per week for well over a year because of the prestige it gave them when standing around in Orgrimmar sporting the latest tier armour/titles/mounts.

“I can remember countless guildies who literally hated raiding and the game itself, yet continued to raid 4 nights per week for well over a year because of the prestige it gave them when standing around in Orgrimmar sporting the latest tier armour/titles/mounts.”

That is a very sad state to be in. It’s sad to see in real life, doubly so in virtual worlds.

Lane.3410:

Raiders will always have the best everything: best gear, best titles, best vanity items, etc.,

What makes you think that that will happen in GW2?

basically leaving anyone who doesn’t like to raid inferior.

Inferior in what way?

Lane.3410:

There are a lot of other MMOs out there that are beautifully catered towards raiders, I don’t see why GW2 has to be one of them as well.

I was/am attracted to the casual nature of GW2. Once raids are added games cease to be casual, IMO. Suddenly there’s a level of exclusivity. Raiders will always have the best everything: best gear, best titles, best vanity items, etc., basically leaving anyone who doesn’t like to raid inferior.

Plus, I can honestly say I’ve met very few people who raided for the enjoyment of it. They do it because it’s the only way to be “the best”. I’m not saying nobody enjoys it, but I really do believe that those who do enjoy raiding are a very small percentage of any given playerbase. It’s not something I’m convinced the masses would participate in or enjoy, so I’d rather see developmental resources go elsewhere.

One of the best posts in this thread.

Personally I’m not sure that raids shouldn’t come into the game. But I agree that the casual nature of the game is one of its biggest strengths for people like me. I’ve seen everything in the game only because it didn’t required from me to waste a whole night to gather a group and raid!

domxnik.1453:

Maybe a bit of grind is what’s missing. It is pretty lame having eight dungeons (excluding Fractals) available at 80 that you can do, and not one of them gives better gear than the other. Depending on what stats you want you might have to do a different dungeons, but that’s about it.

I kind of miss the constant upgrading other games have. What is annoying is how those games are nothing but gear based and there is no skill involved with your class. All you needed to know was how to gear them and what rotation to use to get the most dps. I am glad ANet went down the path of making a game not all about gear and more about skill. But now I feel the game need something more.

In response to your first part, thats how Guild Wars is, there is no significant gear treadmill anymore. You work on skins which I used to be in the same boat as you are, but have learned to move on as it is much more inviting. I did sort of enjoy the weeks if not months I spent trying to get good stats or unique stats on various gear pieces but it also meant that people thought less of me until I had those things. Few people actually pay attention to skill and jump straight to “what are you wearing?” (For PVE atleast). Making new skins for us players isn’t something they can do overnight or over the course of a month because they want to release a kitten load of them to satisfy our needs and also release some hidden recipes for them to make getting them last a bit longer. Tokens are pretty good at that, which is exactly what raids could do. Provide you with tokens towards exclusive “dungeon” skins. Maybe to lengthen the process they could release “dungeon recipes” that you must find from a specific boss which you trade in to the token merchant to unlock more variety in either looks or stat groups(meaning Berserker, Carrion, Traveler, etc)

Anet’s version of raids are on landscape content. and WvW.

I see no problem with this as long as they keep building and improving on both systems.

Anet’s doing something a little different, if you’re looking for something else go play another game. Don’t try to change this one, cause for the most part it’s great.

Lane.3410:

I was/am attracted to the casual nature of GW2. Once raids are added games cease to be casual, IMO. Suddenly there’s a level of exclusivity. Raiders will always have the best everything: best gear, best titles, best vanity items, etc., basically leaving anyone who doesn’t like to raid inferior.

Are you still talking about Guild Wars 2 in this? In other MMO games this is true, but I don’t think it is, or has to be, in Guild Wars 2. All I’m saying is they should add larger player cap dungeons (raids) to the game. Larger community guilds have nothing to do other than WvW as a large group. Guilds like the one I’m in when there is 40-50 people on and we have to split up to do dungeons.

I’m a semi-hardcore player, but I understand where you’re coming from with casuals feeling excluded from the raiding scene, but I just don’t see that happening in Guild Wars 2. Look at dungeons. Do casual players do those? If they do, then I don’t see why they wouldn’t do larger player cap dungeons. You don’t have to do them since it will just be for weapon and armor skins like the dungeons. Raids would be like dungeons just with a larger player cap.

Tarn.1374:

Anet’s version of raids are on landscape content. and WvW.

I see no problem with this as long as they keep building and improving on both systems.

Anet’s doing something a little different, if you’re looking for something else go play another game. Don’t try to change this one, cause for the most part it’s great.

This game is easy. In fact, thats why the people are asking for challenging content that tests a group cooperation and not just random people running in blind to a temple. If you honestly think the temples are hard, do it with a group who knows what to do and you’ll see. It is easy to spot fools who don’t know what they’re doing and those who actually have a clue and the people who do have a clue, want to be tested. FoTM doesnt cut it for most of us since it’s just mostly 1 shot mechanics.

For wvw, not all of us like the clashing of dozens of people for hours on end. It really isn’t challenging unless you count who can survive longer than the other. THis post is about organized group events in an instance for guilds to have fun and challenge themselves, not about changing any of the currently existing dynamic events.

Dungeons are ok, but why the hell closed areas ? why didn’t they make it like open dungeon ? Every1 could enter like they do now, even if he go solo… just like participating to dragons? every 1 could like come and be a part of dungeon… seeing like -10-20-30 or even 100 people in ARAH AC COF would be awesome to see how they tear apart those mobs.. Maybe make bigger dungeon for 100 people and make like UnderWorld in GW1 just larger..

No one argues that we need more content and more variety in things to do, but I don’t think ‘raids’ as seen in other games would fit GW.

In GW when lots and lots of people gather what each ones does becomes less important unless you put several different tasks in the event.

Some group events fail at that, and that makes them boring.

NinjaEd.3946:

Tarn.1374:

Anet’s version of raids are on landscape content. and WvW.

I see no problem with this as long as they keep building and improving on both systems.

Anet’s doing something a little different, if you’re looking for something else go play another game. Don’t try to change this one, cause for the most part it’s great.

This game is easy. In fact, thats why the people are asking for challenging content that tests a group cooperation and not just random people running in blind to a temple. If you honestly think the temples are hard, do it with a group who knows what to do and you’ll see. It is easy to spot fools who don’t know what they’re doing and those who actually have a clue and the people who do have a clue, want to be tested. FoTM doesnt cut it for most of us since it’s just mostly 1 shot mechanics.

For wvw, not all of us like the clashing of dozens of people for hours on end. It really isn’t challenging unless you count who can survive longer than the other. THis post is about organized group events in an instance for guilds to have fun and challenge themselves, not about changing any of the currently existing dynamic events.

Exactly. Though I think you’re not reading what I actually wrote. Though, perhaps you meant to quote someone else, as what you’ve written at times doesn’t make sense?

Your point seems to boils down to ‘I don’t like this so it should be changed’. Which is perfectly fine, everyone’s allowed to have their opinion. Mine is; no, it should not be changed, raids in the traditional sense should never be added. The mechanics that the game already has are great, Anet should continue to build on those. They’ll continually tweak it of course, but I don’t think there should be any huge deviations from their ‘course’.

There are plenty of ways to test yourself in-game at the moment. Plenty.

And there are plenty of other games out there that accommodate those that want to raid.

Firelysm.4967:

Dungeons are ok, but why the hell closed areas ? why didn’t they make it like open dungeon ? Every1 could enter like they do now, even if he go solo… just like participating to dragons? every 1 could like come and be a part of dungeon… seeing like -10-20-30 or even 100 people in ARAH AC COF would be awesome to see how they tear apart those mobs.. Maybe make bigger dungeon for 100 people and make like UnderWorld in GW1 just larger..

I think dungeons are closed – for one reason – to stop the horrendous camping of mobs that goes on and the like when they’re open.

Each map does have an ‘open dungeon’ area. However it’s clear that this was just an after though of Anet’s. It would be great to see them put a lot more effort into them in future. They’re fun at the moment, but have a huge un forfilled potential I think.

Tarn.1374:

NinjaEd.3946:

Tarn.1374:

Anet’s version of raids are on landscape content. and WvW.

I see no problem with this as long as they keep building and improving on both systems.

Anet’s doing something a little different, if you’re looking for something else go play another game. Don’t try to change this one, cause for the most part it’s great.

This game is easy. In fact, thats why the people are asking for challenging content that tests a group cooperation and not just random people running in blind to a temple. If you honestly think the temples are hard, do it with a group who knows what to do and you’ll see. It is easy to spot fools who don’t know what they’re doing and those who actually have a clue and the people who do have a clue, want to be tested. FoTM doesnt cut it for most of us since it’s just mostly 1 shot mechanics.

For wvw, not all of us like the clashing of dozens of people for hours on end. It really isn’t challenging unless you count who can survive longer than the other. THis post is about organized group events in an instance for guilds to have fun and challenge themselves, not about changing any of the currently existing dynamic events.

Exactly. Though I think you’re not reading what I actually wrote. Though, perhaps you meant to quote someone else, as what you’ve written at times doesn’t make sense?

Your point seems to boils down to ‘I don’t like this so it should be changed’. Which is perfectly fine, everyone’s allowed to have their opinion. Mine is; no, it should not be changed, raids in the traditional sense should never be added. The mechanics that the game already has are great, Anet should continue to build on those. They’ll continually tweak it of course, but I don’t think there should be any huge deviations from their ‘course’.

There are plenty of ways to test yourself in-game at the moment. Plenty.

And there are plenty of other games out there that accommodate those that want to raid.

I still don’t see why raids would be a problem. In Guild Wars 2 they would be just like dungeons but with a larger player cap. Also, the mechanics are not so great. Pretty much every boss and dragon/meta events I have done is just a zerg. Bosses have a big health pool which draws the fight out for a while, but with very few mechanics.

I would like to see larger player cap dungeons for those large guilds looking to do something else other than WvW. I just don’t see much challenge or group coordination in this game most the time.

Why is it so hard to understand?

People who are posting about wanting raids—for lack of a better word, since mission, quest, dungeon, and instance already mean something else—in GW2 simply want encounters which are higher-level coordination and higher player-cap. That’s it. Period.

They’re not asking for better gear (for the most part), not asking for better titles, or anything other than a new challenge with an ANet twist.

Please stop posting about how “traditional” raids don’t belong in GW2. It’s paranoid behavior, it’s annoying, and it’s not even what anyone is asking for. Crikey.

Meret.5943:

Why is it so hard to understand?

People who are posting about wanting raids—for lack of a better word, since mission, quest, dungeon, and instance already mean something else—in GW2 simply want encounters which are higher-level coordination and higher player-cap. That’s it. Period.

They’re not asking for better gear (for the most part), not asking for better titles, or anything other than a new challenge with an ANet twist.

Please stop posting about how “traditional” raids don’t belong in GW2. It’s paranoid behavior, it’s annoying, and it’s not even what anyone is asking for. Crikey.

^ This.

Give me a dungeon with more players allowed to I can play with more guild members.
Give me a challenging experience. One that I will remember and share with those guild members and say “remember when”; And give me weapon and armor skins that really stand out so people will say “that guy completed that”.

Right now dungeons aren’t all too challenging. People do speed runs and pass as much enemies as they can. Where is the challenge in that?

I think content which involves larger parties and coordination is a “No Brainer” for Arenanet. What they did in GW1 with Urgoz Warren and The Deep were great, Most of the “End-game” content such as dungeon’s required an 8-man run anyway. GW2 definitely needs raids.

The only hope I have if they do raids, is that they are challenging. Not one shot mechanic challenging, or 1-2 second window for multiple switches challenging, I mean a boss that just gets out of control like the Champion Risen Obomination in Cursed Shore, or something like the End boss for Sorrow’s Embrace story mode but more difficult(that boss is still and continues to be my favorite regardless of it being a piece of cake). We have seen some interesting bosses already so there is no doubt they can’t expand on them to make something truely mind blowing.

OP: We do not need closed raids, which is what you are refering to. This game has open raids now which people need to start organizing. Most DEs in Orr need to have core raid groups that will stay together and work through the various lines of the DE webs.

Do we need CLOSED raid? No!

Do we need people to organize core raid group to go through the DEs? Yes

Krosslite.1950:

OP: We do not need closed raids, which is what you are refering to. This game has open raids now which people need to start organizing. Most DEs in Orr need to have core raid groups that will stay together and work through the various lines of the DE webs.

Do we need CLOSED raid? No!

Do we need people to organize core raid group to go through the DEs? Yes

Too bad that’s never going to happen. World events such as dragons are always going to be zerg and offer no challenge, because anyone can just walk in and join in—same with Orr events.

domxnik.1453:

Krosslite.1950:

OP: We do not need closed raids, which is what you are refering to. This game has open raids now which people need to start organizing. Most DEs in Orr need to have core raid groups that will stay together and work through the various lines of the DE webs.

Do we need CLOSED raid? No!

Do we need people to organize core raid group to go through the DEs? Yes

Too bad that’s never going to happen. World events such as dragons are always going to be zerg and offer no challenge, because anyone can just walk in and join in—same with Orr events.

If you have a core group though they can figure out the web of event. So some parts get zerged. Maybe not all though. How will we know if no one steps up to do it. Only 77post on main so it cant be me

Krosslite.1950:

domxnik.1453:

Krosslite.1950:

OP: We do not need closed raids, which is what you are refering to. This game has open raids now which people need to start organizing. Most DEs in Orr need to have core raid groups that will stay together and work through the various lines of the DE webs.

Do we need CLOSED raid? No!

Do we need people to organize core raid group to go through the DEs? Yes

Too bad that’s never going to happen. World events such as dragons are always going to be zerg and offer no challenge, because anyone can just walk in and join in—same with Orr events.

If you have a core group though they can figure out the web of event. So some parts get zerged. Maybe not all though. How will we know if no one steps up to do it. Only 77post on main so it cant be me

Problem is that doesn’t feel like raiding or dungeons at all—they aren’t even that long. People gear up in exotics through dungeons and then they don’t even need to touch Orr. They go to Cursed Shore and farm the two events.

Frow various articles and videos with Anet staff like Colin for example. They clearly state that more then half of the1500 DEs are in Orr. They imply thier maybe chests at the end of some of the webs which could also yield exotics.
The way the player base acts now we will never get the answer.
Sorry you feel that the open raid system we have is not like other games. From the out set of this game Anet has stated the endgame is the DEs and it will require an organized group to work through Orr to see the various ending and thus rewards

Krosslite.1950:

domxnik.1453:

Krosslite.1950:

OP: We do not need closed raids, which is what you are refering to. This game has open raids now which people need to start organizing. Most DEs in Orr need to have core raid groups that will stay together and work through the various lines of the DE webs.

Do we need CLOSED raid? No!

Do we need people to organize core raid group to go through the DEs? Yes

Too bad that’s never going to happen. World events such as dragons are always going to be zerg and offer no challenge, because anyone can just walk in and join in—same with Orr events.

If you have a core group though they can figure out the web of event. So some parts get zerged. Maybe not all though. How will we know if no one steps up to do it. Only 77post on main so it cant be me

Maybe you don’t need a closed raid, but DEs just don’t satisfy everyone. Sure some are actually fun and challenging, (some rewarding) but like its been stated, anyone can hop in and join the fight. If they suck, then w/e but when you get dozens of people who just don’t know much about being mobile during a fight you start to see how annyoing such a simple event can become. Some guilds and commanders do focus on Orr and actually do a great job of accomplishing the temples proving how easy little coordination can lead to success, but when they arn’t around it can be quite disapointing at times. Raids don’t have to be for better gear, or exclusive stat groups, or even a dull grind. Its about a challenge for organized groups, like guilds, to do something other than WvW. DE could get revamped all they want but raids will still be asked for until something large scale, for guilds (as in same party and not just following each other), outside of WvW, and is drastically challenging is introduced. DE will never be super challenging unless they introduce mini events during them, it simply isn’t made for tight coordination like instances and dungeons are.

jormag, tequatl, shatterer, pushing balth (balth being prob the best example)
I’m not a WoW guy so I could be wrong, but aren’t these similar to raids?
mindlessly bashing a big baddie for a long time with a bunch of people around?
Or are you looking for something more like a 100 person dungeon?
It just seems there isn’t a whole lot of skill necessary when you have over a certain number of players; and/or when you repeat content so much you can do it in your sleep in half the time it was designed to take with 1/5 of the people.

Meret.5943:

Why is it so hard to understand?

People who are posting about wanting raids—for lack of a better word, since mission, quest, dungeon, and instance already mean something else—in GW2 simply want encounters which are higher-level coordination and higher player-cap. That’s it. Period.

They’re not asking for better gear (for the most part), not asking for better titles, or anything other than a new challenge with an ANet twist.

Please stop posting about how “traditional” raids don’t belong in GW2. It’s paranoid behavior, it’s annoying, and it’s not even what anyone is asking for. Crikey.

I still maintain that players like yourself (people who enjoy raiding for simply for the challenge and coordinated play) are the minority, so Anet will be focusing on development to appease maybe 5% (a generous estimate, IMO) of their player base at best?

Beyond that there will be endless QQ about how raiding rewards need to be more “worth it”. So, again, we’re back to raiders ending up having the “best” everything and anyone who doesn’t like to raid just being at a loss.

Having said that, I have no problem with diversifying entertainment. The problem I have is that I’ve yet to see a game reward any other method of playing as much as they do raiding. Raiding has always been the creme de la creme of everything gear and vanity. Now, if you want to argue in favor of raiding while giving people who enjoy other aspects of the game (DEs, WvW, etc.) the same opportunities to obtain the same rewards then fine. I just don’t see that happening because I’ve simply never witnessed it. The few times I’ve even seen it come close the QQ starts up about “welfare” items.

Not all people who raid are the same, but enough of them demand to be a ‘cut above the rest’ that it usually happens.

Even if you want something more difficult with higher player caps…
So they take a dungeon that takes an hour to complete with 5 people and change it to one that takes 3 hours to complete and you can have up to 15 players and the reward is tripled.
Is that what you want? Spending significantly more time waiting to group-up?

Couldn’t agree more. Some high-level content that requires skill, organization, etc. is badly needed. I miss faction farming, dungeons (ones that required skill and had unique rewards), Domain of Anguish, Underworld, and Fissure of Woe from the original Guild Wars.

We need some challenging group content to do. The rewards could just be unique skins or high-end materials or gold. The fun and challenge were a large chunk of the reward.

Quiznos.4296:

jormag, tequatl, shatterer, pushing balth (balth being prob the best example)
I’m not a WoW guy so I could be wrong, but aren’t these similar to raids?
mindlessly bashing a big baddie for a long time with a bunch of people around?
Or are you looking for something more like a 100 person dungeon?

Heh, no they are not, not at all. I’m not asking for a 100 player dungeon either. Those dragons are nothing but a zerg. On Sunless, people hardly ever kill the walls or tentacles, as attended. They tunnel vision the boss until it’s down.
 

Beyond that there will be endless QQ about how raiding rewards need to be more “worth it”. So, again, we’re back to raiders ending up having the “best” everything and anyone who doesn’t like to raid just being at a loss.

Having said that, I have no problem with diversifying entertainment. The problem I have is that I’ve yet to see a game reward any other method of playing as much as they do raiding. Raiding has always been the creme de la creme of everything gear and vanity. Now, if you want to argue in favor of raiding while giving people who enjoy other aspects of the game (DEs, WvW, etc.) the same opportunities to obtain the same rewards then fine. I just don’t see that happening because I’ve simply never witnessed it. The few times I’ve even seen it come close the QQ starts up about “welfare” items.

Not all people who raid are the same, but enough of them demand to be a ‘cut above the rest’ that it usually happens.

Again, If raiding were to be introduced, those who choose to raid would not get anything special, just weapon and armor skins. Look at fractals, those reward better gear. So basically, they are getting the “best” gear even though there is small upgrade, it’s still the best. So, even if raids did come around they still wouldn’t have the best—fractals will, unless they added the ascended gear to raiding.
 

Even if you want something more difficult with higher player caps…
So they take a dungeon that takes an hour to complete with 5 people and change it to one that takes 3 hours to complete and you can have up to 15 players and the reward is tripled.
Is that what you want? Spending significantly more time waiting to group-up?

This would be a problem, but not if they actually brought in dungeon finder, which I can see happening in the future—no one wants to use that website forever. Yes, I would expect raids to be somewhat lengthy, but hopefully that will be because there is actually a challenge. I also think there should be some sort of lockout with the raids so people aren’t constantly farming them. I think this will keep people coming back.

The raids could work sort of like a explorable dungeon, but with more paths and more bosses in each path. I also think there should be some sort of lockout for bosses that were already killed so no one if farming the same path over and over like we see in dungeons today. I also think this will keep people coming back, because they won’t be so bored with it quick.

domxnik.1453:

Again, If raiding were to be introduced, those who choose to raid would not get anything special, just weapon and armor skins. Look at fractals, those reward better gear. So basically, they are getting the “best” gear even though there is small upgrade, it’s still the best. So, even if raids did come around they still wouldn’t have the best—fractals will, unless they added the ascended gear to raiding.

Well, unfortunately, you won’t have any control over what the rewards are. Odds are they would end up adding ascended gear to raids because people would question the logic of not doing so.*

Like I said, I really think other MMOs on the market would be your better option if you love raiding that much. Even if you love GW2 there’s still no reason you can’t supplement it with another game that is geared towards raiding. I still don’t see raiding in GW2 ultimately adding anything to the game, it’ll actually cause less of a differential between it and almost any other MMO. Especially since they all seem to end up with raiding at some point for lack of imagination to create any sort of alternative end game, which to be honest I would prefer to see. I’ve been subjected to raiding end game in every MMO I’ve played in excess of a decade, it’s past time for someone to do something new.

• Here’s a breakdown of what will probably happen: Fractals will become the prerequisite for raiding, the player base will see to that. Raiders will complain about raid drops being worse than what they can get in a 5-man when raiding requires more “skill”. Insert better gear/rewards into raids. People then complain that Anet isn’t living up to its manifesto of GW2 not being a gear grind. Casual players ultimately move on because GW2’s become yet another MMO with raiding being the best/only way to progress their character past level cap like almost every other MMO on the market.

Lane.3410:

domxnik.1453:

Again, If raiding were to be introduced, those who choose to raid would not get anything special, just weapon and armor skins. Look at fractals, those reward better gear. So basically, they are getting the “best” gear even though there is small upgrade, it’s still the best. So, even if raids did come around they still wouldn’t have the best—fractals will, unless they added the ascended gear to raiding.

Well, unfortunately, you won’t have any control over what the rewards are. Odds are they would end up adding ascended gear to raids because people would question the logic of not doing so.*

Like I said, I really think other MMOs on the market would be your better option if you love raiding that much. Even if you love GW2 there’s still no reason you can’t supplement it with another game that is geared towards raiding. I still don’t see raiding in GW2 ultimately adding anything to the game, it’ll actually cause less of a differential between it and almost any other MMO. Especially since they all seem to end up with raiding at some point for lack of imagination to create any sort of alternative end game, which to be honest I would prefer to see. I’ve been subjected to raiding end game in every MMO I’ve played in excess of a decade, it’s past time for someone to do something new.

• Here’s a breakdown of what will probably happen: Fractals will become the prerequisite for raiding, the player base will see to that. Raiders will complain about raid drops being worse than what they can get in a 5-man when raiding requires more “skill”. Insert better gear/rewards into raids. People then complain that Anet isn’t living up to its manifesto of GW2 not being a gear grind. Casual players ultimately move on because GW2’s become yet another MMO with raiding being the best/only way to progress their character past level cap like almost every other MMO on the market.

Lol, obviously I have no control over what drops. I’m not leaving this game for another kitten mmo either. You have WvW where you can play with multiple friends, but pve has nothing. Sure, you can do those boring kitten events, but that’s about it.

Dungeons with larger player cap, in my opinion, is something that would benefit the game. That’s all I’m saying.

domxnik.1453:

Dungeons with larger player cap, in my opinion, is something that would benefit the game. That’s all I’m saying.

I wouldn’t mind dungeons that scaled with the number of players. One of the things I really miss about Rift are their Chronicles, it allowed me to play through a lot of content I otherwise would have never seen and I didn’t have to worry about filling out a 5 man group to accomplish a dungeon (the latter part really annoys me for the last stage of my “personal” quest). If they had something similar in GW2 I think that’d be awesome.

I’m not sure if that’d give you the challenging/coordinated game play you seek, but if you could get a group of 20 in a dungeon that scaled to accommodate that many people maybe that’d satisfy your desire for large scale dungeons.

Lane.3410:

domxnik.1453:

Dungeons with larger player cap, in my opinion, is something that would benefit the game. That’s all I’m saying.

I wouldn’t mind dungeons that scaled with the number of players. One of the things I really miss about Rift are their Chronicles, it allowed me to play through a lot of content I otherwise would have never seen and I didn’t have to worry about filling out a 5 man group to accomplish a dungeon (the latter part really annoys me for the last stage of my “personal” quest). If they had something similar in GW2 I think that’d be awesome.

I’m not sure if that’d give you the challenging/coordinated game play you seek, but if you could get a group of 20 in a dungeon that scaled to accommodate that many people maybe that’d satisfy your desire for large scale dungeons.

20 people? No, I don’t think that would happen in this game. Again, raiding wouldn’t be like in other games were they can go up to 40 people. I would at least ask for 10, maybe 15. I just want to play with more guild members in a instance area.

domxnik.1453:

Heh, no they are not, not at all. I’m not asking for a 100 player dungeon either. Those dragons are nothing but a zerg. On Sunless, people hardly ever kill the walls or tentacles, as attended. They tunnel vision the boss until it’s down.

Even in a regular dungeon, with 5 people they don’t do what’s intended and then just dps the boss.
My point was that what people are asking for is more of the same content, but with a different name. Adding content that people will just skip anyway seems like a waste of time.
Have you ever gotten a group together to push balthazar? You didn’t say anything about that. Might be more your flavour?

EDIT: Also, “, just weapon and armor skins.” Just? isn’t that what legendary’s are? you can’t say “just a skin” in guild wars 1 or 2 :P people take skins waAay too seriously

Lane.3410:

Meret.5943:

Why is it so hard to understand?

People who are posting about wanting raids—for lack of a better word, since mission, quest, dungeon, and instance already mean something else—in GW2 simply want encounters which are higher-level coordination and higher player-cap. That’s it. Period.

They’re not asking for better gear (for the most part), not asking for better titles, or anything other than a new challenge with an ANet twist.

Please stop posting about how “traditional” raids don’t belong in GW2. It’s paranoid behavior, it’s annoying, and it’s not even what anyone is asking for. Crikey.

I still maintain that players like yourself (people who enjoy raiding for simply for the challenge and coordinated play) are the minority, so Anet will be focusing on development to appease maybe 5% (a generous estimate, IMO) of their player base at best?

Beyond that there will be endless QQ about how raiding rewards need to be more “worth it”. So, again, we’re back to raiders ending up having the “best” everything and anyone who doesn’t like to raid just being at a loss.

.

Raids don’t gata offer better stats, I think the “minority” you speak of understands this game is more about cosmetics less about endless gear tredmills. Dungeons already offer exclusive skins, same can be applied to raids. And to answer about Tequtiti, shatterer, jormag, and balthzar temple, those are large scaled Dynamic events with usually mindless sword swingers and bow shooters. Rarely do you see coordination because the events don’t really ask for it. Its a boss, you wiggle down it’s health and its over. Dungeons usually offer some twist to these bosses that actually requires coordination but for guilds, it is very limiting with only 5 people max. 100 people dungeons would be unnecessary but even 12 or 20 man dungeons with a hard boss, that made you feel glad you actually killed it is what would be welcomed. And ofcourse, some sort of tokens or drop chance at skins exclusive to that large scale dungeon.

Lane.3410

I still maintain that players like yourself (people who enjoy raiding for simply for the challenge and coordinated play) are the minority, so Anet will be focusing on development to appease maybe 5% (a generous estimate, IMO) of their player base at best?

I guess we could possibly be the minority. What percentage of people playing GW2, do you think, are also former GW players? More than 5%?

In GW, Urgoz and The Deep were 12-person instances, and the end rewards were exactly the same max stats as everything else in-game. We still did those instances tons of times, because it was fun, it was a challenge, it was something a bigger group could do together.

I’m not insisting that GW2 need raiding, I’m just trying to convince everyone that the sky is not falling, “raids” GW2-style (or GW-style) don’t have to be the end of gaming as we know it.

Lane.3410:

There are a lot of other MMOs out there that are beautifully catered towards raiders, I don’t see why GW2 has to be one of them as well.

I was/am attracted to the casual nature of GW2. Once raids are added games cease to be casual, IMO. Suddenly there’s a level of exclusivity. Raiders will always have the best everything: best gear, best titles, best vanity items, etc., basically leaving anyone who doesn’t like to raid inferior.

Plus, I can honestly say I’ve met very few people who raided for the enjoyment of it. They do it because it’s the only way to be “the best”. I’m not saying nobody enjoys it, but I really do believe that those who do enjoy raiding are a very small percentage of any given playerbase. It’s not something I’m convinced the masses would participate in or enjoy, so I’d rather see developmental resources go elsewhere.

Everyone says this because “that’s what other games do!”

How much of Guild Wars 2 is like other games? Why do we think that raiding would be the same as other games when nothing else in this game is like other games?

Quiznos.4296:

Even if you want something more difficult with higher player caps…
So they take a dungeon that takes an hour to complete with 5 people and change it to one that takes 3 hours to complete and you can have up to 15 players and the reward is tripled.
Is that what you want? Spending significantly more time waiting to group-up?

Or group up with a guild. That’s part of the point. But personally I would like to see content designed with 10-20 players in mind with a mode designed for pugs (story) and a mode designed for organized groups (guilds).

Rewards can be the same as anything else in the game.