A "Better" idea for outmanned pips.

A "Better" idea for outmanned pips.

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Posted by: Bunter.3795

Bunter.3795

The major problem most of us had with outmanned pip acquisition was that it allowed the easy switch of maps to get the bonus pips and a lot of the time those map switchers caused people who were on that outmanned map for the majority of the time to lose their outmanned as others came looking for it.

The change to the outmanned pips doesn’t really help with the times when you don’t have queued maps as you may not spent a lot of time on any one map due to having to respond to call outs or the need to change bl’s to get grab supply. You lose the buff. Also along these lines are the questions of what happens again when you’ve been on the outmanned map for 4:30 and all of a sudden lost the outmanned status. Do you lose the 4:30 duration you had it for or are you still going to get the outmanned pips.

My “better” way would be to break the 5 minute tick into 1 minute segments. Each one full minute of the normal tick that you are outmanned would gain you one extra pip at the end of the normal 5 minute time. This system would stop the last 10 seconds search for an outmanned map and would allow those that have been on a map for the majority of the time to at least get some of the extra pips since they have been outmanned for the majority of the time. In my 4:30 example above a person who had been playing on the map the entire time would at least get +4 pips while the person who came on map in the last 30 seconds wouldn’t get any outmanned pips since they haven’t been on map for a full minute. With the current version we don’t know if losing the outmanned status at any time will cause you to lose the outmanned pips where my system would at least get you some of them.

Now I will be honest and say that I don’t know if this is possible from a programming or server standpoint but I thought I would put it out here for people to look at.

As far as “better”, well it’s my opinion. I realize that there may be “better” ideas out there but it’s my opinion that this would be a better system than what we currently have.

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Posted by: Raymond Lukes

Raymond Lukes

Gameplay Programmer

Next

Hey Bunter,

We made a change to the way Outnumbered works that should help this feel a lot less bad. Outnumbered is now applied each scoring tick (every 5 minutes). Swapping to a map right before a tick will no longer grant an Outnumbered pip bonus. Instead, you must play on an Outnumbered map for an entire tick to earn the bonus.

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Posted by: Kovu.7560

Kovu.7560

Clarify something for me as I won’t have time to play the game tonight until late PST / early OCX.

If you’re playing on a map where you’re outnumbered for almost an entire 5 minute skirmish, but it briefly flickers off and then back on for whatever reason during said skirmish — are you not granted those extra pips? If so that’s an error in design choice considering how frequently people on all servers move around maps and how frequently the buff turns on and off. Rarely will anyone ever benefit from the extra pips.

If it works some other way, disregard my concern.

But if that is the way the change actually functions they’ll need to drastically reduce the threshold that grants that buff for it to reliably hang around on a map, even when you are drastically outnumbered.

I like the 1 minute idea.

~ Kovu

Charr Ranger, Necromancer, Thief
Fort Aspenwood. [CREW], [TLC], [ShW], [UNIV]

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Posted by: Hubal.8571

Hubal.8571

Well, in my opinion the relatively fair implementation would be to grant extra pips for players that were on any map for over 2.5 minutes under outmanned buff.

The way it could be implemented would be to implement separate “outmanned” counter, which increases every second of outmanned buff. In the end – if you reached value of 150 you get the buff – even if you switch map for example to defend a keep in emergecy (if you still have the T3 participation).

That way – if you were for on map for 3 minutes with outmanned and just lost the buff before “tick” you still get the bonus. If you switched and akitten at spawn 2 minutes before the tick – you get no bonus.

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Posted by: Jayne.9251

Jayne.9251

Hey Bunter,

We made a change to the way Outnumbered works that should help this feel a lot less bad. Outnumbered is now applied each scoring tick (every 5 minutes). Swapping to a map right before a tick will no longer grant an Outnumbered pip bonus. Instead, you must play on an Outnumbered map for an entire tick to earn the bonus.

See this sounds reasonable. Why all the fuss?

L’enfer, c’est les autres

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Posted by: Sylvyn.4750

Sylvyn.4750

Hey Bunter,

We made a change to the way Outnumbered works that should help this feel a lot less bad. Outnumbered is now applied each scoring tick (every 5 minutes). Swapping to a map right before a tick will no longer grant an Outnumbered pip bonus. Instead, you must play on an Outnumbered map for an entire tick to earn the bonus.

See this sounds reasonable. Why all the fuss?

I think the issue is that the details are fuzzy. Sure, it is very clear map-hoppers won’t get the bonus pip by swapping maps at the last second, but…for those that have been on the map during that 5-minute tick, at what point must there be an Outnumbered status for the bonus pip to occur? Does it only need to pop right at the end? Does it need to be there all 5 minutes? What if it’s there almost the entire 5 minutes and at the last second someone pops into the BL to see what’s up and the buff goes away…does that mean the bonus goes away at that last second, negating 4 minutes 59 seconds fighting Outnumbered as it did before? I guess we’ll know more in playing the next few days, if we’re lucky enough to see Outnumbered. To me, it’s still a just an occasional perk for those that prefer to fight on enemy BLs, but it’s not one you can count on reliably because map populations can shift rather quickly.

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Posted by: Bunter.3795

Bunter.3795

Hey Bunter,

We made a change to the way Outnumbered works that should help this feel a lot less bad. Outnumbered is now applied each scoring tick (every 5 minutes). Swapping to a map right before a tick will no longer grant an Outnumbered pip bonus. Instead, you must play on an Outnumbered map for an entire tick to earn the bonus.

Thank you for your response Raymond but I am aware of the change today. I was working on my idea before the update but all the update did was encourage me to post my idea. As others have said or asked here the details are completely lacking in how the new outmanned situation will work. If people are fighting on a map for 4:59 and just at the last second they lose the outmanned buff, what happens to the extra pips? Do they get them or not? The system I outlined would allow people to “earn” the extra pips for fighting on an outmanned map. Sure they would lose one pip for the last minute but they would still be rewarded for fighting on an outmanned borderland.

The current status, while vague and lacking details, makes it all to easy for people to grief the people who were fighting on an outmanned map. All that’s going to happen now is people (aka Trolls) are going to swap maps to make sure no one gets the outmanned pips by taking away their outmanned buff at the last moment. My system, would make it so that the trolls could only remove the one pip. Of course this may not be the case but like I’ve said, the details of the workings of the new system are lacking.

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Posted by: Raymond Lukes

Previous

Raymond Lukes

Gameplay Programmer

Hey sorry for the delay. Outnumbered is applied at the start of the tick. This means you’ll only gain or lose it at the start of the tick. So if you are on a map is Outnumbered at the start of the tick you’ll get Outnumbered pips for that tick provided you don’t change maps.

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Posted by: AVAVAV.7183

AVAVAV.7183

Why trying to patch AFK pipping when you can just give pips for each rank up (N pips per rank up). That way, everyone will want to play instead of AFK. With the fix today, I still can just find a spot, build a treb and treb a wall once a minute.

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Posted by: Najten.2418

Najten.2418

Hey Bunter,

We made a change to the way Outnumbered works that should help this feel a lot less bad. Outnumbered is now applied each scoring tick (every 5 minutes). Swapping to a map right before a tick will no longer grant an Outnumbered pip bonus. Instead, you must play on an Outnumbered map for an entire tick to earn the bonus.

See this sounds reasonable. Why all the fuss?

I think the issue is that the details are fuzzy. Sure, it is very clear map-hoppers won’t get the bonus pip by swapping maps at the last second, but…for those that have been on the map during that 5-minute tick, at what point must there be an Outnumbered status for the bonus pip to occur? Does it only need to pop right at the end? Does it need to be there all 5 minutes? What if it’s there almost the entire 5 minutes and at the last second someone pops into the BL to see what’s up and the buff goes away…does that mean the bonus goes away at that last second, negating 4 minutes 59 seconds fighting Outnumbered as it did before? I guess we’ll know more in playing the next few days, if we’re lucky enough to see Outnumbered. To me, it’s still a just an occasional perk for those that prefer to fight on enemy BLs, but it’s not one you can count on reliably because map populations can shift rather quickly.

From what I’ve experienced tonight after each tick it “checks” if you’re outnumbered. If you are at that moment, it applies Outnumbered buff. If you’re not it removes it. It stays/is gone until the next tick happens.

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Posted by: Kovu.7560

Kovu.7560

Hey sorry for the delay. Outnumbered is applied at the start of the tick. This means you’ll only gain or lose it at the start of the tick. So if you are on a map is Outnumbered at the start of the tick you’ll get Outnumbered pips for that tick provided you don’t change maps.

*tips hat

~ Kovu

Charr Ranger, Necromancer, Thief
Fort Aspenwood. [CREW], [TLC], [ShW], [UNIV]

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Posted by: Najten.2418

Najten.2418

As someone who relied on outnumbered pips to finish my chests for the week, this update is demoralizing and completely unnecessary. I never switched to outnumbered maps just before the tick hit for pips; I always spent the entire 5 minutes in the outnumbered map solo roaming. Now there’s no way to tell which map has the outnumbered buff, so it’s just a guessing game of how much time I have to waste before realizing that a map isn’t actually outnumbered.

tl;dr it was fine the way it was before, dont fix what ain’t broken

It was broken though..
Or you honestly think that spending 1 tick (a whole 5 minutes) to find out if a map is Outnumbered or not, and actually 100% receive the bonus for playing on an Outnumbered map the followikg tick(s) is worse than spending an hour on an Outnumbered map but only getting the bonus pip 3-4 times due to other people mapswapping in the last 10 seconds? Really? Perhaps my server and those we’ve been matched up with have been ectreme when it comes to hunting Outnumbered buffs last second but I for one think this is an excellent solution to a problem that was extremely frustrating.

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Posted by: Trajan.4953

Trajan.4953

Or…

How about you just play WvW and if you get an Outnumbered BONUS be happy.

CCCP….

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Or…

How about you just play WvW and if you get an Outnumbered BONUS be happy.

Problem with that is that for players with lower WvW ranks, the “bonus” isn’t a bonus – it’s by far the biggest contributor to your pips.

Particularly if your server is coming third.

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People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

The fix only helps against map hoppers, it doesnt fix the basic issue with outnumbered being such a huge bonus it activly make people not call for defense. Its anti community and anti WvW.

I dont understand how Anet cant see this, sigh… nerf outnumbered pip gain. Buff overall pip gain. Everybody happy.

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Posted by: Vegeta.2563

Vegeta.2563

Hey Bunter,

We made a change to the way Outnumbered works that should help this feel a lot less bad. Outnumbered is now applied each scoring tick (every 5 minutes). Swapping to a map right before a tick will no longer grant an Outnumbered pip bonus. Instead, you must play on an Outnumbered map for an entire tick to earn the bonus.

You completely missed the point of what OP was making. Say you are on the map for 4 mins and 58 seconds.. and the last 2 seconds Outnumbered disappears. You get awarded pips, but without Outnumbered. Then Outnumbered comes back. Here is a youtube video to explain exactly what I am talking about. Watch the Outnumbered buff as the tick timer counts down.

This Guild Is Fire [PRUF]

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Posted by: Bunter.3795

Bunter.3795

Vegeta:

Raymond answered the question of the timer situation further down.

The only problem now is you’ll have trolls map hopping just before the tick to make everyone loses the outmanned buff and then map to a different borderland. The change just makes it easier to maintain the outmanned buff but it’s now easier to grief.

Raymond:

Thanks for the clarification on how the system works in its current form.

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Posted by: Sylvyn.4750

Sylvyn.4750

Bunter, I think the griefing part is similar to before, it’s just that it doesn’t happen when the buff disappears at the end of the tick, it’s when the buff isn’t there right at the beginning of the tick.

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Posted by: Bunter.3795

Bunter.3795

Sylvyn:

Yeah, I realize that. It’s one of the reasons why I suggested my system. My system would make it so that no one could grief the entire outmanned buff by being on a borderland for just a second or two.

Anyway it’s just an idea I thought I’d post.

I do appreciate Raymond posting the clarification on how the system works now.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

The only problem now is you’ll have trolls map hopping just before the tick to make everyone loses the outmanned buff and then map to a different borderland. The change just makes it easier to maintain the outmanned buff but it’s now easier to grief.

To be fair, griefers should be punished instead of the system worsened to account for them. If someone does this repeatedly, they should just get a ban, period.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: phokus.8934

phokus.8934

Hey sorry for the delay. Outnumbered is applied at the start of the tick. This means you’ll only gain or lose it at the start of the tick. So if you are on a map is Outnumbered at the start of the tick you’ll get Outnumbered pips for that tick provided you don’t change maps.

Why not go with a simpler and better solution and get rid of the bonus pips to Outnumbered maps but reward bonus pips for continued participation on a map?

Ya know, actually reward those who fill maps and play.

I post from a phone so please excuse any references to ducks or any other auto corrections.

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Posted by: Carighan.6758

Carighan.6758

Why not go with a simpler and better solution and get rid of the bonus pips to Outnumbered maps but reward bonus pips for continued participation on a map?

Because the two things are entirely unrelated? Outnumbered realms have a hard enough time as it is, even with the bonus pips.

The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.

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Posted by: Neopheus.5680

Neopheus.5680

the fix changed (or better broke) a running system to prevent map hopping for pips. just an example: if you got the outnumbered buff on a map, you knew there are more enemies (maybe prepare for massive inc). now you just know, that there were more enemies at the start of the tick. and maybe in the meantime it’s the complete opposite: you got outnumbered at the start and right after that your zerg jumps on the map and the enemies are outnumbered but you will still have the buff.

that’s rly the wrong way to gain the buff. the system bunter mentioned is way better, because you don’t have to make changes on the outnumbered buff, just a timer to get the extra pips. and with his system you can also jump to another map and if you’re still outnumbered, you still get your extra pips.

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Posted by: Sirbeaumerdier.3740

Sirbeaumerdier.3740

I don’t understand the problem people have with this update. The only players who will get “penalized” are those who “deserve” to be = last minute map hopping parasites.

For everybody else, nothing has changed.

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Posted by: Pifil.5193

Pifil.5193

Hey sorry for the delay. Outnumbered is applied at the start of the tick. This means you’ll only gain or lose it at the start of the tick. So if you are on a map is Outnumbered at the start of the tick you’ll get Outnumbered pips for that tick provided you don’t change maps.

Why not go with a simpler and better solution and get rid of the bonus pips to Outnumbered maps but reward bonus pips for continued participation on a map?

Ya know, actually reward those who fill maps and play.

Because continued participation on a map is not something that should be rewarded.

People’s willingness to change maps and jump onto, for example, their Home Borderland in order to defend their garrison from a massive enemy attack should be rewarded.

People being unwilling to do so because, for example, they’ve built up +2 bonus pips from continued participation on another map is not good for WvW.

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Posted by: Vagrant.8613

Vagrant.8613

I don’t understand the problem people have with this update. The only players who will get “penalized” are those who “deserve” to be = last minute map hopping parasites.

For everybody else, nothing has changed.

That’s the problem, nothing has really changed. There have been multiple requests to have the outnumbered bonus reduced (pips from other bonuses increased). Because I’m only rank 150, I’m still going to farm the outnumbered bonus. And I’m going to continue ignoring my team in other maps even if they need help, unless they have the outnumbered bonus. GG Anet.

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Posted by: Zaxares.5419

Zaxares.5419

While I agree that the Outnumbered buff needed to be changed, I don’t think this current implementation really fixes the problem at all. My breakdown below:

1. First, the good news. From my observations, it seems that once you acquire the Outnumbered buff, it persists on you for the duration of the entire tick. This means that you now don’t have to worry about a sudden flood of players rushing onto your map right before the tick and potentially “stealing” your bonus pips. You’ll get them regardless. This is a wonderful change, ANet. Kudos on this part.

2. Unfortunately, this does nothing to address the REAL problem that was being caused by Outnumbered, which was people continuing to stay on ON maps doing small little things that don’t really benefit your server at all, like just running around capping sentries or shrines, or running yaks to Keeps that already have max supply. It’s disheartening when your Commander puts out a call for defenders for a T3 Keep under attack, and only 1 or 2 people show up to the Emergency WP, when you know for a fact that there’s plenty more players around; they’re just off doing their own thing getting ON pips. And I can’t really blame them. When it’s so difficult to get pips (particularly if you’re a new player), why would you go help with a defense that may fail anyway when you’d get far better rewards just continuing to do what you’re doing and raking in double (or even triple) the pips you’d normally make?

This problem is compounded under the new Decay system, because if you’re unable to get any participation credit (entirely possible during protracted sieges where you don’t get immediate kills), you might wind up losing all of your participation anyway.

3. The root cause of this unhealthy WvW behaviour still exists, which is the fact that it takes an unreasonable amount of time to progress through the Skirmish track every week. It’s no wonder that players are being driven to use Outnumbered in unintended ways that wind up affecting how the rest of WvW performs. I STRONGLY urge the devs to read through the suggestions in this thread and look at increasing the baseline pip acquisition rate so that players don’t feel that they are losing out by taking part in “normal” WvW: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Feedback-Pip-Acquisition-merged/first

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Posted by: VaaCrow.3076

VaaCrow.3076

I don’t think any of you should play wvw if all you care about is pips, these threads are a dime a dozen from people who do not belong in the game mode, either play the game or don’t, just quit your nonsensical whining…

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Posted by: Jayne.9251

Jayne.9251

I don’t think any of you should play wvw if all you care about is pips, these threads are a dime a dozen from people who do not belong in the game mode, either play the game or don’t, just quit your nonsensical whining…

Everyone belongs in WvW if they’re interested. Even most vets will enthusiastically teach anyone who sincerely wants to learn.

The difference is between those who learn how great the mode is and figure out the pips really are inconsequential; and those who only care about the reward itself as they tend not to be team players.

L’enfer, c’est les autres

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Posted by: Sirbeaumerdier.3740

Sirbeaumerdier.3740

I don’t think any of you should play wvw if all you care about is pips, these threads are a dime a dozen from people who do not belong in the game mode, either play the game or don’t, just quit your nonsensical whining…

Everyone belongs in WvW if they’re interested. Even most vets will enthusiastically teach anyone who sincerely wants to learn.

The difference is between those who learn how great the mode is and figure out the pips really are inconsequential; and those who only care about the reward itself as they tend not to be team players.

I agree with this.

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Posted by: Aerinndis.2730

Aerinndis.2730

While I agree that the Outnumbered buff needed to be changed, I don’t think this current implementation really fixes the problem at all. My breakdown below:

1. First, the good news. From my observations, it seems that once you acquire the Outnumbered buff, it persists on you for the duration of the entire tick. This means that you now don’t have to worry about a sudden flood of players rushing onto your map right before the tick and potentially “stealing” your bonus pips. You’ll get them regardless. This is a wonderful change, ANet. Kudos on this part.

2. Unfortunately, this does nothing to address the REAL problem that was being caused by Outnumbered, which was people continuing to stay on ON maps doing small little things that don’t really benefit your server at all, like just running around capping sentries or shrines, or running yaks to Keeps that already have max supply. It’s disheartening when your Commander puts out a call for defenders for a T3 Keep under attack, and only 1 or 2 people show up to the Emergency WP, when you know for a fact that there’s plenty more players around; they’re just off doing their own thing getting ON pips. And I can’t really blame them. When it’s so difficult to get pips (particularly if you’re a new player), why would you go help with a defense that may fail anyway when you’d get far better rewards just continuing to do what you’re doing and raking in double (or even triple) the pips you’d normally make?

This problem is compounded under the new Decay system, because if you’re unable to get any participation credit (entirely possible during protracted sieges where you don’t get immediate kills), you might wind up losing all of your participation anyway.

3. The root cause of this unhealthy WvW behaviour still exists, which is the fact that it takes an unreasonable amount of time to progress through the Skirmish track every week. It’s no wonder that players are being driven to use Outnumbered in unintended ways that wind up affecting how the rest of WvW performs. I STRONGLY urge the devs to read through the suggestions in this thread and look at increasing the baseline pip acquisition rate so that players don’t feel that they are losing out by taking part in “normal” WvW: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Feedback-Pip-Acquisition-merged/first

This. I also agree the outnumber buff needed changes and have no issues with what was done there. The decay change is another matter and I think it has lead to a worse WvW atmosphere.

I still think a cash out when you are ready to leave is something that could be done. For cashing out take out the outnumbered buff equation so it would not apply to leaving. I have no issues with a timer to prevent abuse by hopping in and out either. Give the appropriate number of pips according to the person’s rank and level of participation and add a +1 or +2 pips for just leaving and not waiting around. Prior to the update if I had level 6 participation I could anticipate about 3 sets of pips if I hung around and let my levels tick down. So if a person is getting ready to leave and he or she is at level 6 participation they would get 3 levels of ticks when leaving. Level 5 they would get 2 levels of ticks and Level 4 1 level of ticks.

If changes can’t be made then grant an extra pip or two to people who go to Obsidian Sanctum to wait out their time. If abusers try to do a rinse and repeat more than a certain number of times within a set time frame then give them a time out from WvW or a penalty so they no longer get the extra pips for a period of time.

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Posted by: Vagrant.8613

Vagrant.8613

While I agree that the Outnumbered buff needed to be changed, I don’t think this current implementation really fixes the problem at all. My breakdown below:

1. First, the good news. From my observations, it seems that once you acquire the Outnumbered buff, it persists on you for the duration of the entire tick. This means that you now don’t have to worry about a sudden flood of players rushing onto your map right before the tick and potentially “stealing” your bonus pips. You’ll get them regardless. This is a wonderful change, ANet. Kudos on this part.

2. Unfortunately, this does nothing to address the REAL problem that was being caused by Outnumbered, which was people continuing to stay on ON maps doing small little things that don’t really benefit your server at all, like just running around capping sentries or shrines, or running yaks to Keeps that already have max supply. It’s disheartening when your Commander puts out a call for defenders for a T3 Keep under attack, and only 1 or 2 people show up to the Emergency WP, when you know for a fact that there’s plenty more players around; they’re just off doing their own thing getting ON pips. And I can’t really blame them. When it’s so difficult to get pips (particularly if you’re a new player), why would you go help with a defense that may fail anyway when you’d get far better rewards just continuing to do what you’re doing and raking in double (or even triple) the pips you’d normally make?

This problem is compounded under the new Decay system, because if you’re unable to get any participation credit (entirely possible during protracted sieges where you don’t get immediate kills), you might wind up losing all of your participation anyway.

3. The root cause of this unhealthy WvW behaviour still exists, which is the fact that it takes an unreasonable amount of time to progress through the Skirmish track every week. It’s no wonder that players are being driven to use Outnumbered in unintended ways that wind up affecting how the rest of WvW performs. I STRONGLY urge the devs to read through the suggestions in this thread and look at increasing the baseline pip acquisition rate so that players don’t feel that they are losing out by taking part in “normal” WvW: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Feedback-Pip-Acquisition-merged/first

Well said. I agree 100%.

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Posted by: aandiarie.7195

aandiarie.7195

BUT there is a big issue with this! What if you have to change maps to save something? If one map is outnumbered and the other one isn’t that punishes people. not cool to change the outnumbered.

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Posted by: Sirbeaumerdier.3740

Sirbeaumerdier.3740

BUT there is a big issue with this! What if you have to change maps to save something? If one map is outnumbered and the other one isn’t that punishes people. not cool to change the outnumbered.

People who play for the game first, won’t mind that much missing an outnumbered buff for a tick tbh.

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Posted by: aandiarie.7195

aandiarie.7195

But in a way it does punish the average player for leaving a map to save something if it deprives them of their pips.

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Posted by: Thea Cherry.6327

Thea Cherry.6327

Hey Bunter,

We made a change to the way Outnumbered works that should help this feel a lot less bad. Outnumbered is now applied each scoring tick (every 5 minutes). Swapping to a map right before a tick will no longer grant an Outnumbered pip bonus. Instead, you must play on an Outnumbered map for an entire tick to earn the bonus.

Makes scouting sooo much easier… oh wait.

A "Better" idea for outmanned pips.

in WvW

Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

I don’t understand the problem people have with this update. The only players who will get “penalized” are those who “deserve” to be = last minute map hopping parasites.

For everybody else, nothing has changed.

I think it’s a step in the right direction… at least on paper.

Personally, though, I haven’t received Outnumbered since the change. I don’t know if that’s something to do with the system, or just because there have been less people playing on other servers so there isn’t enough to cause Outnumbered to come up (we’re still basically permanently in last place at the times when I play… grumble), but since I’m at low rank and Outnumbered more than doubles my pip gain, it’s frustrating.

If it’s purely because the numbers aren’t right, well, that’s the game. I think it would be nice, though, to have some sort of ‘pre-Outnumbered’ indicator, so a) if you are looking for the buff, you know which map to stay on, and b) to fulfill the role that Outnumbered used to play in giving the server as a whole a warning that they were Outnumbered on a particular map.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

A "Better" idea for outmanned pips.

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Posted by: Bunter.3795

Bunter.3795

Along with the reasons I gave in my original post and the subsequent clarifications I made there is another reason for changing the system from it’s current form.

I received the outnumbered buff last night while scouting the home borderland. The problem is that even if you get members on the map and the borderland loses the outmanned status you keep the icon until after the tick when it checks again. This early warning system has now been made worthless by the change in how the process works. It used to be a good indicator that either 1) you’re numbers on the map have decreased and you need to pay closer attention to objectives as you don’t have as many eyes on the map or 2) the enemy(s) have increased their presence on the map and you have to make sure you are actively scouting your defenses.

Losing this indicator as an actual defense mechanism is not the end of the world but using the system I outlined would enable this buff to be a true indicator of borderland status rather than the useless symbol it is now.

The current system does nothing to combat the “abuse” we had before as all it does is make those that map hopped 10 seconds before the tick wait the few extra seconds to see if they get the outmanned buff or not. If they get it, they’ll stay on the map and not contribute to other maps if needed due to losing the buff. If they don’t get it they’ll still map hop and look for it. The current system also allows any trolls the ability to grief the system by porting right before the tick and making sure no one gets the outmanned buff right after the tick. My system at least made sure that those who stayed and fought on a outmanned map got some sort of bonus and didn’t lose it just because somebody joined the map for just a moment.

Another thing to make clear, I’m not posting this because I endorse the extra pips for the outmanned status rather I’m offering an idea for a change to a system Anet has put in place that many feel is detrimental to the overall state of WvW. Some like the idea and some don’t but I really don’t care one way or the other. I’m just saying the current version should be modified and have given a suggestion to how to do so. It’s up to Anet as to whether or not we keep the system or not.

A "Better" idea for outmanned pips.

in WvW

Posted by: atheria.2837

atheria.2837

Hey sorry for the delay. Outnumbered is applied at the start of the tick. This means you’ll only gain or lose it at the start of the tick. So if you are on a map is Outnumbered at the start of the tick you’ll get Outnumbered pips for that tick provided you don’t change maps.

As fast and as much as “Outnumbered” appears and disappears from most maps on most servers, far fewer people will be able to even get the ‘gain’ from the buff.

Not keeping all IT jobs here is a major reason IT is so bad HERE. 33y IT 10y IT Security

A "Better" idea for outmanned pips.

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Posted by: abasedfear.6051

abasedfear.6051

I feel like the fix was too knee-jerk. A simpler better-understood fix would be to assign outmanned pips for the tick if the player holds the outmanned buff for at least any consecutive 15 second period or perhaps just a cumulative minute or two, dealer’s choice. However, pips should only be assigned if the player has been on the map for at least five minutes.

Want to know if you’ve been on a map for five minutes? Give the player a new buff on entering a map where the outmanned buff can’t apply pips and give it a five minute timer. (You can even call it “A New Challenger” akin to the Street Fighter meme. We know ANet likes memes!)

(edited by abasedfear.6051)

A "Better" idea for outmanned pips.

in WvW

Posted by: Gunslinger.7031

Gunslinger.7031

There are 3 fundamental problems with this change:
A) You have no idea which map is outnumbered until 5 min in
B) Porting from a map that is outnumbered at the moment to one that is asking for help is disencouraged. You see, before the change, there is a chance you will still keep your outnumbered status after the map change, but now you have absolutely 0%, due to its 5 min timer.
C) It does not solve any AFK issues. Afkers will continue to do what they do, seeing how the current pip system does NOT encourage active play. I’ve already discussed what Anet needs to and have to implement, in this thread, now whether they do anything about it is their call: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Feedback-Pip-Acquisition-merged/page/18#post6643100

A possible solution is to revert the Outnumbered change and then add a 5 min timer on it, so that it stays for an extra 5 min even after the map is no longer outnumbered. Now there’s no more outnumbered buff flickering on and off and less waiting to check if a map is outnumbered. Everyone is happy.

A personal favorite suggestion is instead decrease the value of Outnumbered from +5 pip to +1 pip and increasing the base pip acquisition from +0 (before any application of other pip gain e.g loyalty, rank, commander etc…) to +3 or +4 while reverting the changes of Outnumbered and adding a text that states the last time Outnumbered was on the map. It would erase the need to map hop and it would revert back to a simple indicator of map population.

(edited by Gunslinger.7031)

A "Better" idea for outmanned pips.

in WvW

Posted by: aandiarie.7195

aandiarie.7195

The outnumbered fix was good enough. I don’t like the changes to decay! They need to get rid of this decay crap they changed. It is ruining the game for me. It happens to fast/quickly. I was on a map and we had capped our corner and I was trying to scout and trying to repair, destroy siege and kill guards wasn’t good enough. Even with participation it wasn’t good enough/working too well.

Seriously the outnumbered change was good enough. Change decay back. It is horrible and unfair. If you are on desert bl, roaming, scouting, or in your own corner of ebg the task of trying to not decay is overwhelming and ruining the game.

A "Better" idea for outmanned pips.

in WvW

Posted by: Solstace.2514

Solstace.2514

I don’t like the outnumbered bonus. I’d rather reward players that are contributing more significantly to their servers success. It seems silly that you can get a bigger bonus for sitting on an outnumbered map and capping the occasional unmanned camp orvsentry as opposed to fighting on a contested map. People can hold keeps or towers, cap hotly contested points, etc. yet the game values this less. Rewards bad play styles