Guild Wars 2

Always has this Epidemic “hack” in WvW. It is so boring that the only way to counter this “epi hack” is resistance. When fighting in zerg and when my resistance is off, it’s just like gambling but without any rewards, just wish this “epi hack” don’t trigger on my character or I need to walk from spawn again.
Whatever I moved on and finding other game, just feel like dev has no clue what’s really happening in WvW, no offense but just telling my feeling when I was playing WvW every day for 5+ hours and hope for fix every and every two months, good luck and have fun!

Chaba.5410:

Jski.6180:

Chaba.5410:

To add, the fight this was from was not near an objective lord nor WvW gate/oil/cannon.

And wvw doors something you cant even condi…. dose this guy even play wvw / gw2?

Even as I cringed reading it, I used “gate” in my response in hopes of not losing the concept from translation.

Just pointing out the dev said door not near gate not siege not npc.

I think that 10 stacks at most per condition would still be reasonable considering the low CD of the skill. That’s still 10 stacks of bleed/burning/confusion/torment/poison you can theoretically apply to people every 13.5 seconds. In other words its almost 1 stack of each of those conditions per second, per epimancer. That’s still ridiculously strong, even if it does require setup.

Jeknar.6184:

OriOri.8724:

B – Of course if you trigger an effect to cleanse by using a skill then you will take the condition damage. If you use a skill that cleanses first this wouldn’t be a problem.

Cleanses still trigger confusion damage. Which is kinda illogical.

That the problem with condi its a utility dmg type and was made to be such but once they buffed it dmg they did not drop it utility effect. So we have power dmg that has no utility effects that is on part with condi dmg but once you factor in condi dmg utility it becomes unbalanced over all.

Condi dmg is the counter to healing and boons and it should not do the same dmg as power but it dose now and power dmg has no counter to healing and boons outside of doing condi effect. Its a plane for power dmg to fall more and more behind and condi dmg being the only real dmg type.

Haematic.4913:

Kekkei Genkai Kage.5930:

Player issue on ele, out of position to get ally buffss and cleanses :^)

Said player had 2,300 ping from the server.

So I’d like to make things clear. The player had 2300 ping average in this screenshot? Because everything can look like an insta-pwn with 1k+ ping.

It’s not like I don’t believe it could happen, but just making sure of the facts. I mean I’ve had 2-3 seconds kills on me because your average auramancer isn’t as equipped to have many instant on-demand cleanses. Also, hats off to them for still playing. I have trouble with if the ping hits 230, much less any higher.

ArchonWing.9480:

Haematic.4913:

Kekkei Genkai Kage.5930:

Player issue on ele, out of position to get ally buffss and cleanses :^)

Said player had 2,300 ping from the server.

So I’d like to make things clear. The player had 2300 ping average in this screenshot? Because everything can look like an insta-pwn with 1k+ ping.

It’s not like I don’t believe it could happen, but just making sure of the facts. I mean I’ve had 2-3 seconds kills on me because your average auramancer isn’t as equipped to have many instant on-demand cleanses. Also, hats off to them for still playing. I have trouble with if the ping hits 230, much less any higher.

I’m not Sherlock, but those condi seen in this short video were way beyond redemption. He would need a cleanse/resist from an ally in the next second, with or without ping issues. Those 2 tick kills from epidemic are not a rare sight, you can see such behavior in many epidemic videos on youtube.

¯\(?)/¯

August 28, 2012 Game release:
Epidemic has been added to the game.

Avigrus.2871:

August 28, 2012 Game release:
Epidemic has been added to the game.

Serious question, what is your point here? Are you implying that just because a skill has been in the game for a long time that it merits no review 4.5 years later? Many other skills and traits that have also been in this game since launch have subsequently seen a change due to later updates/meta changes. There’s no reason for Epidemic to be exempt from scrutiny.

There is a lot of setup in an epidemic bomb, it’s like 50 attacks all combined. Imagine getting hit by 50 autoattacks from power builds, you get instantly killed when run over by a zerg as well. If you’re fighting 50 hard hitting enemies all at once, every now and then you’re going to go down. In both cases if you’re fast you can save yourself. I generally run 2 full condi cleanses and a damage immunity.

Basically I just don’t care. Sometime you go down.

Changing how many stacks of X condition gets applied doesn’t change the fact that players are punished for their allies making mistakes, instead of themselves forgetting to dodge/invuln a skill (note epidemic is unblockable). We should discuss the mechanics of the skill first. Changing parameters like targeting range, effect radius, cast time, recharge, etc., can be adjusted later.

One possible change to the mechanics that I’d like to throw in there is adding an X second delay between the cast going off and the conditions being spread to other players. During this delay, the five enemy players for condition spreading are identified and given a large floating icon over their head similar to Signet of Vampirism. Alternatively you could have a Tainted-Shackles-type animation with a visible “line” (with smoke effects!) connecting players. This adds some counter-play to the skill and would visually make more sense with the skill animation at the end of the cast (smoke clouds that swirl around the target). This way, instead of seeing the skill go off and already having all the conditions on you, you are now able to see the skill go off, realize that you’re being targeted, and have a short period of time to negate the attack.

Other thoughts:

• Should Epidemic be able to be blocked? Should the condition spreading be able to be blocked? Aegis as a counter to condition plays is an interesting and relatively unexplored avenue that would add depth to the game.
• If you do have a mechanic similar to Tainted Shackles, should you be able to remove yourself as a “spread target” if you move out of the skill radius (not the targeting range)?
• Is the smoke cloud animation on the targeted player visible enough in the heat of combat? Can it be made larger? Less transparent? Perhaps there should be a debuff added?

@Fluffball your description is quite good, it is like 50 autoattacks but from 1 guy to 5 players. That’s why it is OP in the current implementation and this by a margin that is so huge that nobody should even question a nerf that wants a fair game. Sure, maybe some people don’t care about a fair game, but then why would they take part in topics about balancing.

@Expandas while a possible blocking surely also is a good idea and may work in small scale zerg-fights there is no way to see the tell in 30+ zerg scenarios. Also it feels like Raids if you are playing on a though character and one missed dodge will just kill you outright, even if it was just one guy “one-shotting” you and 4 other guys, and then the next ones in 13 seconds. I think we are way past the point, where a tell would solve the problem of the damage capability of epidemic.

Avigrus.2871:

August 28, 2012 Game release:
Epidemic has been added to the game.

Back then, condition had a cap. If you had 10 necros doing epidemic… You would simply overkill the cap and it was pointless. Nowadays it is exponential since you will double the previous effect. jumping from 16 stack to 32 to 64 in no time. For sure it takes some time to set up → corrupt boon → epi and other necros also use epi on target. But the problem like it was mentionned is that other players get punished for the mistakes of their ally.

Best way to kill a guild group? Target the pugs (preferably a rev since he will pop resist and thus give you more time to build up the condi bomb) that follow them around even if they are not in squad (see here closed squad) and spread the love with 60+ stacks of condi! <3

Rink.6108:

@Fluffball your description is quite good, it is like 50 autoattacks but from 1 guy to 5 players. That’s why it is OP in the current implementation and this by a margin that is so huge that nobody should even question a nerf that wants a fair game. Sure, maybe some people don’t care about a fair game, but then why would they take part in topics about balancing.

Because it doesn’t kill me. If I get hit with it I’ll use one of my 2 full condi cleanses. Nor do I kill many people with epidemic on my condi necro (far and away my least favorite profession, so I have nothing invested in necros not getting nerfed.)

I agree with the people saying this is getting blown way out of proportion. Condis have been really weak in zerg fights for a long time.

Chaba.5410:

Avigrus.2871:

August 28, 2012 Game release:
Epidemic has been added to the game.

Serious question, what is your point here? Are you implying that just because a skill has been in the game for a long time that it merits no review 4.5 years later? Many other skills and traits that have also been in this game since launch have subsequently seen a change due to later updates/meta changes. There’s no reason for Epidemic to be exempt from scrutiny.

Especially since conditions have become much more powerful and dished out at higher rates since the expansion changes, than the 3 years before it.

Personally I think epi is fine the way it is, the bloated boons/condition combat crap from the expansion needs to be looked into at the core, combat today is just not as fun as the old system.

Such a shame that the ele isnt in a group with a rev or anything (yes this is sarcasm).

Akashi.3245:

Such a shame that the ele isnt in a group with a rev or anything (yes this is sarcasm).

Yes, epidemic being obscenely overpowered is totally OK because another obscenely overpowered mechanic like having close to 100% uptime on resistance exists…

I wanna hear more about how Karl applies condis to a door

Walked into an epidemic yesterday. Downed in 1 tick. If I had a light field though…

That being said, good change to help against Condi sustain but not bursts.

Fay.2357:

Akashi.3245:

Such a shame that the ele isnt in a group with a rev or anything (yes this is sarcasm).

Yes, epidemic being obscenely overpowered is totally OK because another obscenely overpowered mechanic like having close to 100% uptime on resistance exists…

if the ele in the revs group was positioned where he should have been he would have had the resistance and all other boons which the rev had is all im saying. if he was where he should have been and had the resistance, he would have had enough time to react. If he didn’t react at all thats on him and the people around him cop the epi. or visa versa if the rev is oblivious to what is going on around him.

If your in an organised group and you run away from your support classes you need to rethink your gameplay because 9/10 you get punished for it.

Akashi.3245:

Fay.2357:

Akashi.3245:

Such a shame that the ele isnt in a group with a rev or anything (yes this is sarcasm).

Yes, epidemic being obscenely overpowered is totally OK because another obscenely overpowered mechanic like having close to 100% uptime on resistance exists…

if the ele in the revs group was positioned where he should have been he would have had the resistance and all other boons which the rev had is all im saying. if he was where he should have been and had the resistance, he would have had enough time to react. If he didn’t react at all thats on him and the people around him cop the epi. or visa versa if the rev is oblivious to what is going on around him.

If your in an organised group and you run away from your support classes you need to rethink your gameplay because 9/10 you get punished for it.

Congratulations, you missed the point. The fact that there is an abusable mechanic allowing you to completely ignore a major part of this game’s combat is no healthier than the fact that there is an abusable mechanic allowing necros to one-shot people with impunity.

The changes are killing fights. It’s no fun for anyone. Fix it Anet

Ermm, the issue with epi as mention in many past threads is simply that a unorganised zerg can still pull it off while you require a organised zerg to fight against it.

Elsewhere, direct dps you can avoid or block thus even a unorganised zerg can fight against it.

Akashi.3245:

if the ele in the revs group was positioned where he should have been he would have had the resistance and all other boons which the rev had is all im saying.

If your in an organised group and you run away from your support classes you need to rethink your gameplay because 9/10 you get punished for it.

This is valid, and also not. Revenant resistance uptime is only 100% for themselves; on allies, it has about 57% uptime if there’s only 1 revenant (7 seconds to regenerate 35 energy, resistance on allies lasts 4 with 100% boon duration). This also assumes that revenant will not spend energy on anything except spamming pain absorption, aka really boring/unfun (you might win, but you’ll also press 2 buttons to do so). Additionally, it actually makes the revenant more useful target for epidemic, as they just pulled 5 condis (at worst) from their squad. Which means 25 more stacks of condi if the revenant gets hit with epi.

This is slightly mitigated by a dedicated boon share mesmer (can spread 8 seconds of resistance every 24 seconds using inspiration twice, not counting phantasm trait), but you still have a downtime and that’s not even counting boon corruption (which will destroy any stacked time leading to longer vulnerable periods).

Compare to power burst? Most AOE power burst comes in waves or pulses. Necro Well of Suffering? 6 ticks. Meteor? 24 individual hits. Gunflame? is a projectile. Guardian symbols? 4-6 ticks. True, you can bypass this by layering multiple instances, but that damage scales linearly, but you can do something similar with epidemic.

Cast 2 purging flames on a group and ALL of them have 3-6 burning (purging flames line cross burn has no target cap if i recall), wait for the friendly neighborhood enemy revenant to use pain absorption, and now you have a nice time bomb of 8-11 burn stacks to use on his friends (not counting any marks or whatnot).

Better cleanse the revenant for doing his job before his job kills you!

This guy Akashi is so right. Why nerf Epidemic when there’s near perma-Resistance from Revenants? Why do we even have dodge when Mesmers can provide near perma-Invulnerability? Game would be more interesting if dodges were removed and people used their overpowered skills instead. /sarcasm

Chaba.5410:

This guy Akashi is so right. Why nerf Epidemic when there’s near perma-Resistance from Revenants? Why do we even have dodge when Mesmers can provide near perma-Invulnerability? Game would be more interesting if dodges were removed and people used their overpowered skills instead. /sarcasm

Im not defending epi in any way. if someone wants to cherry pick a ele getting 1 shot thats in a party where you can clearly see a revenant with resistance up thats fine. if people want to live through eveything by being unorganised thats up to them, im just pointing it out.

Do i think epi is op? sure. how do i think it could be changed? restrict it to only scale off of the casters conditions only.

Fay.2357:

Akashi.3245:

Fay.2357:

Akashi.3245:

Such a shame that the ele isnt in a group with a rev or anything (yes this is sarcasm).

Yes, epidemic being obscenely overpowered is totally OK because another obscenely overpowered mechanic like having close to 100% uptime on resistance exists…

if the ele in the revs group was positioned where he should have been he would have had the resistance and all other boons which the rev had is all im saying. if he was where he should have been and had the resistance, he would have had enough time to react. If he didn’t react at all thats on him and the people around him cop the epi. or visa versa if the rev is oblivious to what is going on around him.

If your in an organised group and you run away from your support classes you need to rethink your gameplay because 9/10 you get punished for it.

Congratulations, you missed the point. The fact that there is an abusable mechanic allowing you to completely ignore a major part of this game’s combat is no healthier than the fact that there is an abusable mechanic allowing necros to one-shot people with impunity.

and you missed the point where i say if he had resistance up from the rev in his party he would have had time to react. you only need a few seconds of resistance to manage it.

Akashi.3245:

Do i think epi is op? sure. how do i think it could be changed? restrict it to only scale off of the casters conditions only.

Not sure what you’re saying there. The transferred conditions utilize the caster’s condition damage stat already.

Chaba.5410:

Akashi.3245:

Do i think epi is op? sure. how do i think it could be changed? restrict it to only scale off of the casters conditions only.

Not sure what you’re saying there. The transferred conditions utilize the caster’s condition damage stat already.

I am aware. casters condition sources only. to not scale a gaurdians burns to match the necros condition damage so its, say 8 burning at 0 condition damage (if the guard has 0) after epi. not 8 burns at 2xxx condition damage. if that makes sense.

Akashi.3245:

Fay.2357:

Akashi.3245:

Fay.2357:

Akashi.3245:

Such a shame that the ele isnt in a group with a rev or anything (yes this is sarcasm).

Yes, epidemic being obscenely overpowered is totally OK because another obscenely overpowered mechanic like having close to 100% uptime on resistance exists…

if the ele in the revs group was positioned where he should have been he would have had the resistance and all other boons which the rev had is all im saying. if he was where he should have been and had the resistance, he would have had enough time to react. If he didn’t react at all thats on him and the people around him cop the epi. or visa versa if the rev is oblivious to what is going on around him.

If your in an organised group and you run away from your support classes you need to rethink your gameplay because 9/10 you get punished for it.

Congratulations, you missed the point. The fact that there is an abusable mechanic allowing you to completely ignore a major part of this game’s combat is no healthier than the fact that there is an abusable mechanic allowing necros to one-shot people with impunity.

and you missed the point where i say if he had resistance up from the rev in his party he would have had time to react. you only need a few seconds of resistance to manage it.

Nope, you still missed Fay’s point. Epi could come at any time, and in a large fight it can range from hard to near impossible to see the Necro cast it. If it is killing you in 1-2 ticks that means you have 1 second max to react and get resistance up to counteract it. With a half second cast time on PA from Revs, this is reduced to 1/2 second to react after being hit by an epi bomb, and its not your own reactions that will save you, but those of someone else.

Realistically the only practical counterplay to this is to have Resistance up a substantial % of the time, closer to 100% the better. Which means the only practical counterplay is perma-Resistance or kitten near close to it. And that is also fundamentally broken.

If the only realistic counterplay to epi bombs is another equally broken mechanic then it means both need to be nerfed, not that both are somehow balanced because both of them are OP.

Phantom.5389:

ArchonWing.9480:

Haematic.4913:

Kekkei Genkai Kage.5930:

Player issue on ele, out of position to get ally buffss and cleanses :^)

Said player had 2,300 ping from the server.

So I’d like to make things clear. The player had 2300 ping average in this screenshot? Because everything can look like an insta-pwn with 1k+ ping.

It’s not like I don’t believe it could happen, but just making sure of the facts. I mean I’ve had 2-3 seconds kills on me because your average auramancer isn’t as equipped to have many instant on-demand cleanses. Also, hats off to them for still playing. I have trouble with if the ping hits 230, much less any higher.

I’m not Sherlock, but those condi seen in this short video were way beyond redemption. He would need a cleanse/resist from an ally in the next second, with or without ping issues. Those 2 tick kills from epidemic are not a rare sight, you can see such behavior in many epidemic videos on youtube.

¯\(?)/¯

Well, that’s not what I was getting at. Yes, ping issues or not, he might have died. And sure I know you can be instantly ded’d by these things. What I was referring to is during times of really bad lag, the game may “fast forward” things when it catches up so that everything happens at once which makes it look like everything happened at once.

Of course, is that all we’re really seeing is a life bar going down without any real context. I don’t know if the ele was focused in a fight or just happened to run into 30 people.

Phantom.5389:

Avigrus.2871:

August 28, 2012 Game release:
Epidemic has been added to the game.

Back then, condition had a cap. If you had 10 necros doing epidemic… You would simply overkill the cap and it was pointless. Nowadays it is exponential since you will double the previous effect. jumping from 16 stack to 32 to 64 in no time. For sure it takes some time to set up -> corrupt boon -> epi and other necros also use epi on target. But the problem like it was mentionned is that other players get punished for the mistakes of their ally.

Best way to kill a guild group? Target the pugs (preferably a rev since he will pop resist and thus give you more time to build up the condi bomb) that follow them around even if they are not in squad (see here closed squad) and spread the love with 60+ stacks of condi! <3

There was also no torment burning did not stack poison did not stack and over all the % where much weaker and condi dmg was a utility effect not a dmg tool.

OriOri.8724:

Akashi.3245:

Fay.2357:

Akashi.3245:

Fay.2357:

Akashi.3245:

Such a shame that the ele isnt in a group with a rev or anything (yes this is sarcasm).

Yes, epidemic being obscenely overpowered is totally OK because another obscenely overpowered mechanic like having close to 100% uptime on resistance exists…

if the ele in the revs group was positioned where he should have been he would have had the resistance and all other boons which the rev had is all im saying. if he was where he should have been and had the resistance, he would have had enough time to react. If he didn’t react at all thats on him and the people around him cop the epi. or visa versa if the rev is oblivious to what is going on around him.

If your in an organised group and you run away from your support classes you need to rethink your gameplay because 9/10 you get punished for it.

Congratulations, you missed the point. The fact that there is an abusable mechanic allowing you to completely ignore a major part of this game’s combat is no healthier than the fact that there is an abusable mechanic allowing necros to one-shot people with impunity.

and you missed the point where i say if he had resistance up from the rev in his party he would have had time to react. you only need a few seconds of resistance to manage it.

Nope, you still missed Fay’s point. Epi could come at any time, and in a large fight it can range from hard to near impossible to see the Necro cast it. If it is killing you in 1-2 ticks that means you have 1 second max to react and get resistance up to counteract it. With a half second cast time on PA from Revs, this is reduced to 1/2 second to react after being hit by an epi bomb, and its not your own reactions that will save you, but those of someone else.

Realistically the only practical counterplay to this is to have Resistance up a substantial % of the time, closer to 100% the better. Which means the only practical counterplay is perma-Resistance or kitten near close to it. And that is also fundamentally broken.

If the only realistic counterplay to epi bombs is another equally broken mechanic then it means both need to be nerfed, not that both are somehow balanced because both of them are OP.

What this?

Fay.2357:

Akashi.3245:

Such a shame that the ele isnt in a group with a rev or anything (yes this is sarcasm).

Yes, epidemic being obscenely overpowered is totally OK because another obscenely overpowered mechanic like having close to 100% uptime on resistance exists…

I make a point of the ele not having resistance to react to manage and communicate needing condi clear while being in a party with a revenant due to w/e reason who already has his resistance up. but i miss the point. good job

i know that resistance isnt 100% uptime , but neither are high condition stacks.

OriOri.8724:

Epi could come at any time, and in a large fight it can range from hard to near impossible to see the Necro cast it. If it is killing you in 1-2 ticks that means you have 1 second max to react and get resistance up to counteract it. With a half second cast time on PA from Revs, this is reduced to 1/2 second to react after being hit by an epi bomb, and its not your own reactions that will save you, but those of someone else.

Relying on others can be hard.

Jski.6180:

Phantom.5389:

Avigrus.2871:

August 28, 2012 Game release:
Epidemic has been added to the game.

Back then, condition had a cap. If you had 10 necros doing epidemic… You would simply overkill the cap and it was pointless. Nowadays it is exponential since you will double the previous effect. jumping from 16 stack to 32 to 64 in no time. For sure it takes some time to set up -> corrupt boon -> epi and other necros also use epi on target. But the problem like it was mentionned is that other players get punished for the mistakes of their ally.

Best way to kill a guild group? Target the pugs (preferably a rev since he will pop resist and thus give you more time to build up the condi bomb) that follow them around even if they are not in squad (see here closed squad) and spread the love with 60+ stacks of condi! <3

There was also no torment burning did not stack poison did not stack and over all the % where much weaker and condi dmg was a utility effect not a dmg tool.

Oh, and confusion got buffed. Geniuses.

Didn’t have resistance? l2p
Weren’t standing a mile away from downstates / enemy necros / siege? l2p
Can’t react in 200ms? l2p
Someone else cant react in 200ms? l2p
Not a clairvoyant? l2p
Latency? l2p

It’s completely normal that 1 skill can give 30 bleeds, 15 poisons + 10 other condis. If you die to epi then l2p

ArchonWing.9480:

Phantom.5389:

ArchonWing.9480:

Haematic.4913:

Kekkei Genkai Kage.5930:

Player issue on ele, out of position to get ally buffss and cleanses :^)

Said player had 2,300 ping from the server.

So I’d like to make things clear. The player had 2300 ping average in this screenshot? Because everything can look like an insta-pwn with 1k+ ping.

It’s not like I don’t believe it could happen, but just making sure of the facts. I mean I’ve had 2-3 seconds kills on me because your average auramancer isn’t as equipped to have many instant on-demand cleanses. Also, hats off to them for still playing. I have trouble with if the ping hits 230, much less any higher.

I’m not Sherlock, but those condi seen in this short video were way beyond redemption. He would need a cleanse/resist from an ally in the next second, with or without ping issues. Those 2 tick kills from epidemic are not a rare sight, you can see such behavior in many epidemic videos on youtube.

¯\(?)/¯

Well, that’s not what I was getting at. Yes, ping issues or not, he might have died. And sure I know you can be instantly ded’d by these things. What I was referring to is during times of really bad lag, the game may “fast forward” things when it catches up so that everything happens at once which makes it look like everything happened at once.

Of course, is that all we’re really seeing is a life bar going down without any real context. I don’t know if the ele was focused in a fight or just happened to run into 30 people.

The guy receiving the condies had the ping, the guy who made the gif was fine. The gif is an accurate depiction, no lag catch-up there.

Fay.2357:

ArchonWing.9480:

Phantom.5389:

ArchonWing.9480:

Haematic.4913:

Kekkei Genkai Kage.5930:

Player issue on ele, out of position to get ally buffss and cleanses :^)

Said player had 2,300 ping from the server.

So I’d like to make things clear. The player had 2300 ping average in this screenshot? Because everything can look like an insta-pwn with 1k+ ping.

It’s not like I don’t believe it could happen, but just making sure of the facts. I mean I’ve had 2-3 seconds kills on me because your average auramancer isn’t as equipped to have many instant on-demand cleanses. Also, hats off to them for still playing. I have trouble with if the ping hits 230, much less any higher.

I’m not Sherlock, but those condi seen in this short video were way beyond redemption. He would need a cleanse/resist from an ally in the next second, with or without ping issues. Those 2 tick kills from epidemic are not a rare sight, you can see such behavior in many epidemic videos on youtube.

¯\(?)/¯

Well, that’s not what I was getting at. Yes, ping issues or not, he might have died. And sure I know you can be instantly ded’d by these things. What I was referring to is during times of really bad lag, the game may “fast forward” things when it catches up so that everything happens at once which makes it look like everything happened at once.

Of course, is that all we’re really seeing is a life bar going down without any real context. I don’t know if the ele was focused in a fight or just happened to run into 30 people.

The guy receiving the condies had the ping, the guy who made the gif was fine. The gif is an accurate depiction, no lag catch-up there.

Ok, that makes more sense.

LetoII.3782:

I wanna hear more about how Karl applies condis to a door

I believe Karl dropped the ball and leaked what the WvW team has been working on. Soon everyone will be able to apply condis to doors inorder to help the ktrains move along faster, in return increasing the loot/hr. Then the skirmish rewards/UI changes that we all voted for will be complete, and then we will finally get another poll.

Anyone remember the old pirate ship meta? You know, the one where if you set foot anywhere near the other blob you were CC’d and dead within a second?

What about before that where you had a melee train with necro well bombs and if you got caught in that (venom share immobilise) you were likewise dead in maybe 2s?

Do you think having 2000 ping back in those meta’s would have made you live any longer than the epi meta you guys have?

I don’t think epidemic is the problem, I think the major problem is how tanky people have got and how even decent amounts of quickness, resistance and protection in boonshare coupled with all the other damage reduction you deal more damage and yet are harder to kill than pre hot.

Start making necros more vulnerable again by reducing boonshare and resistance uptime and the problem will fix itself, oh and reduce some of the conditions flying around, everyone since HoT throws out tons of soft CC.

Think what this skill actually does. If it counters blobs than it´s actually good ….. Annything that hurts zergs but not small groups is actually good for the gameplay. Stacking manny players in a small area should be punished.
I would even brign in a skill that has like 180 radius and does 2 points of damage but quadruples for each player hit and when you actually hit 10+ targes they all instantly die.

Wolfric.9380:

Think what this skill actually does. If it counters blobs than it´s actually good ….. Annything that hurts zergs but not small groups is actually good for the gameplay. Stacking manny players in a small area should be punished.
I would even brign in a skill that has like 180 radius and does 10 points of damage but quadruples for each player hit and when you actually hit 20+ targes they all instantly die.

Condi in general can be extremely strong in small groups though, there’s a guild on Gunnar’s Hold called ERP who are infamous for running 5-8 high condi damage builds with a boonshare mesmer and shamans support/condi ele hybrid. They don’t need epidemic kitten people can spew out a ton of conditions that even if you cleanse the torment, chill, cripple, immobilise, poison, confusion, burn and weakness you still have those 10-19 bleeds ticking away and many classes have a few conditions they can spam hard.

The problems with condi at the moment is there’s just so much of it flying around, not just the damage, the soft CC and debuff kinds are also all over the place.

Well… since HoT the whole meta has become…

#akittenmetaforkittens :P

Blasting light fields helps alot vs condi heavy teams.
Of course, if you fight condi heavy groups who are much larger, you will have a hard time.
I think it’s fair now, condi teams need a strong bomb too.

(i play guardian and power necro)

Epidemic needs to be reworked, plain and simple.

Bandaids aren’t going to balance this issue.

The skill can be balanced and still be a powerful tool for condi-spikes and carrying out numbered fights.

1st .. the “25” condition cap is broken and not working as intended, we’ve tested this, and the .gif I’ve attached in the OP is proof of this as well. This could easily follow the same condition table as Corrupt Boon https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupt_Boon … and what I mean by this is – it will apply a multiplier from this table as you see it I.E. 2x, 3x, 4x, 5x what’s currently on the table, per Epidemic cast on target, if those conditions exist.

2nd .. the cooldown is way to short, cleanses to counter an EPI spike don’t share nearly the same cooldown I.E. Virtue Of Resolve (when traited, can clear up to 5-conditions on Guard, and 3-conditions on allies); this has a 30-second cooldown whereas Epidemic has a 15-20 second cooldown reduction depending if you trait for it or not. This is just one example. Other examples can be reviewed here .. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition#Skills_that_remove_conditions

3rd .. there’s no clear indication that the Necromancer is channeling such an aggressive skill. A poster in this thread mentioned implementing a floater signaling Epidemic is being cast.

4th .. it’s unblockable, IMHO if you want this to remain unblockable make the core skill blockable, then make it unblockable if it’s traited for; so it doesn’t get abused by power necro specs as well.

Edit: For illuminati reasons, you should know that I mentioned my guild utilizes this skill and coordinates EPI-Spikes on targets. Even against organized groups we’re matched up against, we’re still insta-gibbing 2-3 players minimum on top of the original target. We still intend to use Epidemic after the rework, but the skill as it currently stands is overpowered because of the way it exponentially scales.

Haematic.4913:

Epidemic needs to be reworked, plain and simple.

Bandaids aren’t going to balance this issue.

The skill can be balanced and still be a powerful tool for condi-spikes and carrying out numbered fights.

1st .. the “25” condition cap is broken and not working as intended, we’ve tested this, and the .gif I’ve attached in the OP is proof of this as well. This could easily follow the same condition table as Corrupt Boon https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupt_Boon … and what I mean by this is – it will apply a multiplier from this table as you see it I.E. 2x, 3x, 4x, 5x what’s currently on the table, per Epidemic cast on target, if those conditions exist.

2nd .. the cooldown is way to short, cleanses to counter an EPI spike don’t share nearly the same cooldown I.E. Virtue Of Resolve (when traited, can clear up to 5-conditions on Guard, and 3-conditions on allies); this has a 30-second cooldown whereas Epidemic has a 15-20 second cooldown reduction depending if you trait for it or not. This is just one example. Other examples can be reviewed here .. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition#Skills_that_remove_conditions

3rd .. there’s no clear indication that the Necromancer is channeling such an aggressive skill. A poster in this thread mentioned implementing a floater signaling Epidemic is being cast.

4th .. it’s unblockable, IMHO if you want this to remain unblockable make the core skill blockable, then make it unblockable if it’s traited for; so it doesn’t get abused by power necro specs as well.

Edit: For illuminati reasons, you should know that I mentioned my guild utilizes this skill and coordinates EPI-Spikes on targets. Even against organized groups we’re matched up against, we’re still insta-gibbing 2-3 players minimum on top of the original target. We still intend to use Epidemic after the rework, but the skill as it currently stands is overpowered because of the way it exponentially scales.

I think that you should just stay in PvE.

Haematic.4913:

Epidemic needs to be reworked, plain and simple.

Bandaids aren’t going to balance this issue.

The skill can be balanced and still be a powerful tool for condi-spikes and carrying out numbered fights.

1st .. the “25” condition cap is broken and not working as intended, we’ve tested this, and the .gif I’ve attached in the OP is proof of this as well. This could easily follow the same condition table as Corrupt Boon https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupt_Boon … and what I mean by this is – it will apply a multiplier from this table as you see it I.E. 2x, 3x, 4x, 5x what’s currently on the table, per Epidemic cast on target, if those conditions exist.

2nd .. the cooldown is way to short, cleanses to counter an EPI spike don’t share nearly the same cooldown I.E. Virtue Of Resolve (when traited, can clear up to 5-conditions on Guard, and 3-conditions on allies); this has a 30-second cooldown whereas Epidemic has a 15-20 second cooldown reduction depending if you trait for it or not. This is just one example. Other examples can be reviewed here .. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition#Skills_that_remove_conditions

3rd .. there’s no clear indication that the Necromancer is channeling such an aggressive skill. A poster in this thread mentioned implementing a floater signaling Epidemic is being cast.

4th .. it’s unblockable, IMHO if you want this to remain unblockable make the core skill blockable, then make it unblockable if it’s traited for; so it doesn’t get abused by power necro specs as well.

Edit: For illuminati reasons, you should know that I mentioned my guild utilizes this skill and coordinates EPI-Spikes on targets. Even against organized groups we’re matched up against, we’re still insta-gibbing 2-3 players minimum on top of the original target. We still intend to use Epidemic after the rework, but the skill as it currently stands is overpowered because of the way it exponentially scales.

- Post of mine from earlier in this thread.

Reasonable Epidemic adjustments

Reduce radius to 240. The current radius is massive and twice the size of Meteor Shower. A radius reduction would be more than okay.

Reduce range to 900. Although this would be a pretty heavy nerf, especially with the radius reduction as well, it would add a bigger risk/reward factor to the skill. Getting close to targets in zerg fights as a Necromancer isn’t a good idea. Reducing the range could promote more skillful decisions.

Disallow it from working on high health NPC’s and siege. It’s not fair to be bouncing so many conditions off of things that normal players cannot survive. This would be a perfectly acceptable change.

What the community wants

Remove it!
Make it transfer only one condition every few seconds!
Quadruple the cooldown!
Increase the cast time!
Long winded rant about how it’s broken and a half baked idea to completely rework the skill so that it functions completely differently and no one ever uses it again because reasons. (You fit this one well).

What ANet will do

Half-listen to the community, knee jerk nerf it to the point that it becomes even more niche than what it currently is.

Community cries that bunker meta is too stong.

I would halve the radius but remove the target cap ….

Junkpile.7439:

Haematic.4913:

Epidemic needs to be reworked, plain and simple.

Bandaids aren’t going to balance this issue.

The skill can be balanced and still be a powerful tool for condi-spikes and carrying out numbered fights.

1st .. the “25” condition cap is broken and not working as intended, we’ve tested this, and the .gif I’ve attached in the OP is proof of this as well. This could easily follow the same condition table as Corrupt Boon https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupt_Boon … and what I mean by this is – it will apply a multiplier from this table as you see it I.E. 2x, 3x, 4x, 5x what’s currently on the table, per Epidemic cast on target, if those conditions exist.

2nd .. the cooldown is way to short, cleanses to counter an EPI spike don’t share nearly the same cooldown I.E. Virtue Of Resolve (when traited, can clear up to 5-conditions on Guard, and 3-conditions on allies); this has a 30-second cooldown whereas Epidemic has a 15-20 second cooldown reduction depending if you trait for it or not. This is just one example. Other examples can be reviewed here .. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition#Skills_that_remove_conditions

3rd .. there’s no clear indication that the Necromancer is channeling such an aggressive skill. A poster in this thread mentioned implementing a floater signaling Epidemic is being cast.

4th .. it’s unblockable, IMHO if you want this to remain unblockable make the core skill blockable, then make it unblockable if it’s traited for; so it doesn’t get abused by power necro specs as well.

Edit: For illuminati reasons, you should know that I mentioned my guild utilizes this skill and coordinates EPI-Spikes on targets. Even against organized groups we’re matched up against, we’re still insta-gibbing 2-3 players minimum on top of the original target. We still intend to use Epidemic after the rework, but the skill as it currently stands is overpowered because of the way it exponentially scales.

I think that you should just stay in PvE.

It sounds like you should say in pve when it comes to you view on balancing. If there an effect in the game that can be redone what many players are need to do but only takes one and one skill there is something wrong. I am saying by taking all the condis that every one is putting out and doubleing them for each neco you have IS a problem in pvp.
It would be a problem in pve if you had realty numbers with real mobs. Say a raid boss was realty 5 mobs at the same time and stayed together. Epi necor would be the end all be all dmg on thoughts mobs.

This is what epi is the ability of one play to double the condi out put of any number of players. So if you have 5 ppl doing condis its going to be like 10 if you have 10 it will be like 20 etc.. once you get into real wvw big fights these necro start to shift things so much that classes and boon from rev become must. And ppl who do not play the “right classes” are making there side far worst off.

That is your wvw and pvp and why you should keep with pve.

The argument that the defense against a one shot skill is to not get hit by it is ridiculous. Nobody can see everything coming especially when the game allows players to clip each other. An Asuran standing in the same spot as a Norn or Charr basically makes any of their animations invisible.

No damage over time skill should be able to effectively one shot players much less an AoE.

OriOri.8724:

B – Of course if you trigger an effect to cleanse by using a skill then you will take the condition damage. If you use a skill that cleanses first this wouldn’t be a problem.

If you are advocating skills should remove condi before activating Confusion, sure but that isn’t how it works now. The list of skills that cleanse before Confusion damage is applied is very limited and most of them need a trait component. Once a significant Epi hits there is zero counter play for most builds.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Haematic.4913:

Epidemic needs to be reworked, plain and simple.

Bandaids aren’t going to balance this issue.

The skill can be balanced and still be a powerful tool for condi-spikes and carrying out numbered fights.

1st .. the “25” condition cap is broken and not working as intended, we’ve tested this, and the .gif I’ve attached in the OP is proof of this as well. This could easily follow the same condition table as Corrupt Boon https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Corrupt_Boon … and what I mean by this is – it will apply a multiplier from this table as you see it I.E. 2x, 3x, 4x, 5x what’s currently on the table, per Epidemic cast on target, if those conditions exist.

2nd .. the cooldown is way to short, cleanses to counter an EPI spike don’t share nearly the same cooldown I.E. Virtue Of Resolve (when traited, can clear up to 5-conditions on Guard, and 3-conditions on allies); this has a 30-second cooldown whereas Epidemic has a 15-20 second cooldown reduction depending if you trait for it or not. This is just one example. Other examples can be reviewed here .. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition#Skills_that_remove_conditions

3rd .. there’s no clear indication that the Necromancer is channeling such an aggressive skill. A poster in this thread mentioned implementing a floater signaling Epidemic is being cast.

4th .. it’s unblockable, IMHO if you want this to remain unblockable make the core skill blockable, then make it unblockable if it’s traited for; so it doesn’t get abused by power necro specs as well.

Edit: For illuminati reasons, you should know that I mentioned my guild utilizes this skill and coordinates EPI-Spikes on targets. Even against organized groups we’re matched up against, we’re still insta-gibbing 2-3 players minimum on top of the original target. We still intend to use Epidemic after the rework, but the skill as it currently stands is overpowered because of the way it exponentially scales.

- Post of mine from earlier in this thread.

Reasonable Epidemic adjustments

Reduce radius to 240. The current radius is massive and twice the size of Meteor Shower. A radius reduction would be more than okay.

Reduce range to 900. Although this would be a pretty heavy nerf, especially with the radius reduction as well, it would add a bigger risk/reward factor to the skill. Getting close to targets in zerg fights as a Necromancer isn’t a good idea. Reducing the range could promote more skillful decisions.

Disallow it from working on high health NPC’s and siege. It’s not fair to be bouncing so many conditions off of things that normal players cannot survive. This would be a perfectly acceptable change.

What the community wants

Remove it!
Make it transfer only one condition every few seconds!
Quadruple the cooldown!
Increase the cast time!
Long winded rant about how it’s broken and a half baked idea to completely rework the skill so that it functions completely differently and no one ever uses it again because reasons. (You fit this one well).

What ANet will do

Half-listen to the community, knee jerk nerf it to the point that it becomes even more niche than what it currently is.

Community cries that bunker meta is too stong.

Reasonable Epidemic adjustments

• Limit condi stacks to 25 on players only. Adjust something else for burning and confusion. That helps manage condis globally. They never should have brought the condi changes to anything but NPCs.
• Disallow epidemic on objects. Just a terrible concept.
• Nerf Mortar burning (Seriously, what the hell)
• Make poultry soup and saffron bread also reduce condition damage; invent more food with similar abilities. These things would be useful but haven’t kept up with game changes.
• Make it blockable; including the actual passing of condis

Questionable Epidemic Adjustments

• Make Resistance no longer a boon
• Give more resistance/cleanses to other classes
• Epidemic Self Cripples too
• Give resistance or – condi damage to runesets like melandru or hoelbrak.

What Anet will actually do*

• Epidemic Cooldown reduced to 10 seconds
• Change the look of condition icons
• Make some -50% condition damage reduction food that takes Maguuma Lillies to make.

apharma.3741:

Anyone remember the old pirate ship meta? You know, the one where if you set foot anywhere near the other blob you were CC’d and dead within a second?

What about before that where you had a melee train with necro well bombs and if you got caught in that (venom share immobilise) you were likewise dead in maybe 2s?

Do you think having 2000 ping back in those meta’s would have made you live any longer than the epi meta you guys have?

I don’t think epidemic is the problem, I think the major problem is how tanky people have got and how even decent amounts of quickness, resistance and protection in boonshare coupled with all the other damage reduction you deal more damage and yet are harder to kill than pre hot.

Start making necros more vulnerable again by reducing boonshare and resistance uptime and the problem will fix itself, oh and reduce some of the conditions flying around, everyone since HoT throws out tons of soft CC.

I think that epidemic is mostly fine, but the excessive condis flying around do highlight that it should have a lower cap per condi. The tempest in that gif had 62 bleed stacks alone applied within 1 second, on top of all of the other stuff that he got loaded up with as well. That’s problematic. Other than just putting a lower cap on how many stacks epi can transfer though, I do think the skill as it is now is fine.

And I also agree that we need to reduce the amount and duration of condis and boons being thrown around practically for free.