Guild Wars 2

The forefront and selling point of your MMO.

This is because, quite simply, WvW provides a unique experience that other games simply haven’t matched yet.

Black Desert Online, Archage and even World of Warcraft are examples of games whose PvE environments compete with Guild Wars 2.

League of Legends, DOTA 2 and Overwatch are Esports games that compete with GW2 in the competitive PvP market.

Yet none of these games provide the kind of RvR experience that WvW has offered us. For now at least, ArenaNet, you have sole control over this very lucrative market.

But not for long.

The success of Dark Age of Camelot shows that large-scale PvP is in high demand, and that when fostered correctly, a RvR format (like WvW) can grow and prosper alongside a loyal playerbase.

ANet, in a time when GW2 is steadily aging and other developing titles seek to compete in the valuable RvR market, think not of short-term profit, but using your collective talent and abilities to foster long-term growth.

Address the tough issues of scoring, population and profession balance. Take a stand and show your playerbase that you’re ready to accept WvW not for what it is, but what it can become.

Thank you for reading.

I love WvW. I only play WvW and sPvP modes in GW2.

I think you are correct that WvW is a type of gameplay rarely seen in other games. The closest game I can compare WvW to would be EVE Online. The alternative that GW2 provides is a less demanding play style with less commitment required than EVE, while still able to provide a fluid long term battle that has consequences.

I and many others have been chasing the RvR experience we had in DAoC for going on 15 years now, and everything has let us down. GW2 is the best/closest thing there is right now, but it could be so much more with the right attention.

mcarswell.3768:

I and many others have been chasing the RvR experience we had in DAoC for going on 15 years now, and everything has let us down. GW2 is the best/closest thing there is right now, but it could be so much more with the right attention.

Yeah. Pre-TOA/frontiers DAoC was awesome. GW2 is the closest thing since that game.

mcarswell.3768:

I and many others have been chasing the RvR experience we had in DAoC for going on 15 years now, and everything has let us down. GW2 is the best/closest thing there is right now, but it could be so much more with the right attention.

Unfortunately nothing will change enough here by the time the successor to DAoC hits the market, and wvw is going to take a population hit.

Swagger.1459:

Unfortunately nothing will change enough here by the time the successor to DAoC hits the market, and wvw is going to take a population hit.

This has been repeated every half year for the last 3 years now I think and we still havent seen anything even remotely close to a beta of CU meaning it’s at least another 1-2 year left… and I do think I said exactly that last year too. Or the year before that. Honestly, I cant remember anymore.

I do agree though that they dont advertise it nearly enough. The ingame ads for sPvP tournaments is a special thorn in our eyes. Why no call to arms when your server is loosing in WvW? Why not more 1 week of WvW event bonuses at least once a month to encourage a flow of new players to become interested? Anet totally dropped the ball on the simple things.

Dawdler.8521:

Swagger.1459:

Unfortunately nothing will change enough here by the time the successor to DAoC hits the market, and wvw is going to take a population hit.

This has been repeated every half year for the last 3 years now I think and we still havent seen anything even remotely close to a beta of CU meaning it’s at least another 1-2 year left… and I do think I said exactly that last year too. Or the year before that. Honestly, I cant remember anymore.

That’s not the point. Point is that wvw in the current form will not compete with it unless Anet puts an expac worth of effort into it at some point. I highly doubt that will happen and we will see a huge chunk of players jumping ship for a better rvr experience. RvR here is currently an add on, and that’s drastically different than an entire game and classes and combat designed for RvR, with an engine that can handle mass combat better…

mcarswell.3768:

I and many others have been chasing the RvR experience we had in DAoC for going on 15 years now, and everything has let us down. GW2 is the best/closest thing there is right now, but it could be so much more with the right attention.

It just needs more polls. You can never have enough polls.

Xillllix.3485:

mcarswell.3768:

I and many others have been chasing the RvR experience we had in DAoC for going on 15 years now, and everything has let us down. GW2 is the best/closest thing there is right now, but it could be so much more with the right attention.

It just needs more polls. You can never have enough polls.

That’s what she said….

Agreed and very well written, OP.

Although my IRL position has allowed/kept me playing this game far longer and more often than I should… WvW is the only thing that has kept my interest.

I started Gw2 doing PvE leveling in the open world. Exploring heart quests and doing dungeons, etc. It took… I think 3 weeks? Before I set the game down and didn’t come back for at least a few months.

When I came back, I started a fresh character and decided to explore WvW. I was totally blown away by the scale of combat and the amount of chaos constantly swirling around me. I leveled my (now oldest character) Necromancer, entirely in WvW and from the time I discovered it, I never left. I’ve done PvE things here and there, personal story, world completion and PvP, but it’s only a very small fraction of what my time in Gw2 has been. I’d wager I’ve got a minimum of 5k hours in WvW alone and it’s the one thing that keeps me playing every day.

I’m not usually very dramatic about ANet’s changes to WvW. I take it with a grain of salt and try to look on the bright side. For how long I, or anyone else that has an optimistic perspective, can carry on with such a view remains to be seen however. I feel it’s only a matter of time before something breaks and I just go “done” and quit forever. Although at this point, I think my retirement is long overdue anyway so I can hardly blame ANet.

Cheers to the future of WvW, comrades. May your lag be little and your loot a plenty.

I’ve never played and don’t claim anything is better than wvw right now, but I’m seeing a lot of streamers talk about how ESO is starting to get their wvw style in order and improving. Not sure if anyone can confess to that but seems like it may be worth a try.

I am excited about DAOC though, looks fun.

Mysteriax.6049:

Address the tough issues of scoring, population and profession balance. Take a stand and show your playerbase that you’re ready to accept WvW not for what it is, but what it can become.

Thank you for reading.

I agree with you but it won’t happen. Anet basically had their last chance after the HOT disaster when they had an idea for a complete overhaul of WvW. They chose not to go that way and instead made marginal changes with the linkages and the upcoming scoring changes, which won’t fix the fundamental issues, and the linkages aren’t working anyway. They are just fiddling around the edges now.

The problems with WvW go right back to launch when they put people in charge who clearly had no regard for WvW and upper management let them have their way.

RodOfDeath.5247:

I’ve never played and don’t claim anything is better than wvw right now, but I’m seeing a lot of streamers talk about how ESO is starting to get their wvw style in order and improving. Not sure if anyone can confess to that but seems like it may be worth a try.

I am excited about DAOC though, looks fun.

Dude have you seen the running animation for DAOC, those animations are 5x crappier than LOTRO!

RodOfDeath.5247:

I’ve never played and don’t claim anything is better than wvw right now, but I’m seeing a lot of streamers talk about how ESO is starting to get their wvw style in order and improving. Not sure if anyone can confess to that but seems like it may be worth a try.

ESO had potential to be great, but they blew it by not taking aspects from GW2. Commanders alone would have made it 10x better from the start. But they decided to ignore it even worse than Anet, not even fixing seriously broken exploits (vampires for a month anyone?)

Dawdler.8521:

ESO had potential to be great, but they blew it by not taking aspects from GW2. Commanders alone would have made it 10x better from the start.

What? They had squads from the start with leaders. It was always easy to find a squad and join. It took anet what 3 years to introduce sqauds. The problem with ESO was the lack of balance and an endgame grind that exacerbated that, both of why I understand they are improving on.

@OP

I agree with you…

Honestly, ANet’s WvW is the best large scale competitive PvP/GvG/PvE game mode in the current market…for now…not for how much longer though…imho

The current WvW game mode, however, is crippled by its core base design.

I don’t understand why people keep saying the problem/soltuion to fixing WvW is far too complex to comprehend.

The problem/solution is ridiculously complex because the core base design makes it so.

It’s like trying to find a needle in the haystack.

Why not burn the haystack…get rid of the needle & create a better haystack.

Why spend a ton of resources to find & fix a single needle…then…spend additional resources to fix the ripple effects & neverending bugs that result to infinity.

ANet has a quality product, but they need to better re-package their game mode into a new game mode.

The new re-packaged game mode needs to be Player Driven…yet ANet Controlled…this is a natural part of a good game mode design. Not understanding this…means…you’re clueless…and you shouldn’t be discussing this.

Based on the “grief” prone history of WvW…the new core base design should be able to deal with the 3 chronic problems that have plagued WvW since the launch of GW2 itself:

1) Reduce the direct impact of Server stacking to Match-Ups
2) Allow friends & family to play together from many different Worlds
3) Allow Off-peak capping, but let players to work out a solution themselves

ANet needs to re-package their current WvW game mode to deal with the 3 chronic problems listed above…into a new game mode.

It’s ok to make mistakes, but over time…make a better product…by not repeating mistakes.

I stopped playing because ANet re-engineered WvW & took away many of the reasons behind why I played passionately for.

Haven’t seen any formal stated Vision for WvW from ANet…so history repeats itself & mistakes continue to stack heavily against the health & viability of the game mode…based on a lack of insight into “collected data”…paired with a poor or lack of vision of what WvW should be…

It would be nice if ANet formally published their WvW Vision for the community to see & understand.

There’s a better solution to what ANet is currently doing…imho.

Yours truly,
Diku

Possible Better Long Term Solution – Google Search – wvg world vs globes

Im just waiting for crowfall now. WVW feels like an add on idea that how no real planning.

with crowfall, bannerlord, and starcitizen releasing in the future i just dont see my self playing this game for long.

Mysteriax.6049:

The forefront and selling point of your MMO.

This is because, quite simply, WvW provides a unique experience that other games simply haven’t matched yet.

Black Desert Online, Archage and even World of Warcraft are examples of games whose PvE environments compete with Guild Wars 2.

League of Legends, DOTA 2 and Overwatch are Esports games that compete with GW2 in the competitive PvP market.

Yet none of these games provide the kind of RvR experience that WvW has offered us. For now at least, ArenaNet, you have sole control over this very lucrative market.

But not for long.

The success of Dark Age of Camelot shows that large-scale PvP is in high demand, and that when fostered correctly, a RvR format (like WvW) can grow and prosper alongside a loyal playerbase.

ANet, in a time when GW2 is steadily aging and other developing titles seek to compete in the valuable RvR market, think not of short-term profit, but using your collective talent and abilities to foster long-term growth.

Address the tough issues of scoring, population and profession balance. Take a stand and show your playerbase that you’re ready to accept WvW not for what it is, but what it can become.

Thank you for reading.

I think its too late for that in this game. Perhaps in GW3, or a whole other side game in addition to their next MMORPG.

The reasons I think its too late are multiple, just of the top of my head in no particular order:

1. Outadated hardware / network infrastructure – skill lag during mass battles
2. Outdated security – too many hacks / cheats / exploits
3. Timezone discrepancies in populations
4. Lack of any sort of a system to make longterm and vastly outnumbered players wanting to continue playing. They leave their servers or the game entirely, and for good reasons.
5. Lack of structured mid scale and large scale arenas with spectator mode and ladders records.
6. Outdated game engine.
7. Wrong devs in charge of WVW projects (at least initially, not anymore it seems) catered to T1 whining and gave us EOTM, gave us DBL with jump pads, jumping puzzle elements everywhere, failed laser event, killed off MANY small guilds and killed nearly all personal 1 man guilds, etc.

A-Net would have to address all of that. But just look at the sheer amount of whining when they tried to limit bandwagoning, thats just for starters. Whereas in a brand new game rulesets and mechanics will be set beforehand so that each and every player will know what they are getting themselves into.

So they would be better off continuing to make small adjustments here and milking this cow for all its worth, and concentrating their efforts on the next product, rather then continue to pour resources into this.

Maybe with next expansion, but only IF they were to concentrate everything on WVW as primary focus and complete re-marketing campaign, but can you imagine how many PVE and SPVP players would leave then and what kind of publicity they would generate for this game and the company while doing so ? Therefore I just don’t think it’d be a good idea for them to do so.

Tongku.5326:

I think its too late for that in this game. Perhaps in GW3, or a whole other side game in addition to their next MMORPG.

I don’t believe they will want to put a WvW game mode in GW3. Too much hassle and I suspect the original game designers responsible for the mode are not at anet any more.

morrolan.9608:

Dawdler.8521:

ESO had potential to be great, but they blew it by not taking aspects from GW2. Commanders alone would have made it 10x better from the start.

What? They had squads from the start with leaders. It was always easy to find a squad and join. It took anet what 3 years to introduce sqauds. The problem with ESO was the lack of balance and an endgame grind that exacerbated that, both of why I understand they are improving on.

I said commanders not squads. Yeah ESO had squads. But nothing was visible on the map. I wont argue that squads isnt an excellent addition but WvW didnt even need squads, we did fine before them. Gathering on a tag is social and simple – the basic ideas for enjoying any MMO game.

How would you feel when you login in every day on EB, looking at the map… no markers. No blue commanders. None on the borders either. Because they dont exist. There could be a 20 man raid squad anywhere. No one except those in the raid would know. No guilds working together with pugs because no one know where they are. No guilds working together with other guilds. Not even scouts marking locations.

Now imagine the above on a kittening map 20x the size of a GW2 map.

WvW was the thing I was looking forward to most in GW2. I remember back when they first started talking about it, in the days of GW1. I thought to myself “That’s the mode I’ve been wanting GW to have”. Unfortunately WvW just didn’t turn out how I thought it was going to.

The result we got is basically a game of musical chairs. A group of players from server A run to a undefended keep and capture it, whilst group from servers B and C do the same thing. No defending, or pushing the enemy back in on-going battles to try and take control of more territory, just running from keep to keep and capturing them.

There’s no satisfaction from capturing all these undefended keeps so easily.

WvW is the only place in the game where guilds matter and you can actually have yourself a GvG Guild War.

Mysteriax.6049:

Address the tough issues of scoring, population and profession balance.

Before addressing gameplay issues they first need to address crappy engine issues. Skill lag, FPS drops, etc. No point in having tons of people if all they can do is lag. But sadly the engine isn’t designed for anything more than 10×10 and it will never change.

Dawdler.8521:

How would you feel when you login in every day on EB, looking at the map… no markers. No blue commanders. None on the borders either. Because they dont exist. There could be a 20 man raid squad anywhere. No one except those in the raid would know. No guilds working together with pugs because no one know where they are. No guilds working together with other guilds. Not even scouts marking locations.

Now imagine the above on a kittening map 20x the size of a GW2 map.

I’ve played ESO up to max level, none of that happened (except for the guild part but it was never a heavily guild driven game in the beginning), there were always squads taking in pugs to take an objective, and when you were in a squad you could see where they were on the map

Let me put it simply, there are guilds that literally WvW KNOWING 100% that they are LOSING GOLD doing it constantly. People throw thousands of gold at WvW simply for the sake of fighting because its fun. Reduce the PvE rewards to match WvW, PvE will die within a day. Look at how long of these hardcore WvW guilds have been fighting, that will speak for itself.

I agree with OP, if you guys gave up on the meta and launched with proper support for WvW as GW2’s main selling point you’ll kill every other MMO and PC game out there. Until then fix the skill lag, because that still needs to be looked into.

I’m afraid wvw cant become the success anymore what it could have been. Shame though.

Edit: Especially not with these kittenty polls going on these days.

A.Net has killed WvW and many of the good players will be leaving shortly. It doesn’t even take any skill to play any more. Just blob and win. This is what A.Net thinks will work, well, they killed this game mode hard.

Dawdler.8521:

Swagger.1459:

Unfortunately nothing will change enough here by the time the successor to DAoC hits the market, and wvw is going to take a population hit.

This has been repeated every half year for the last 3 years now I think and we still havent seen anything even remotely close to a beta of CU meaning it’s at least another 1-2 year left… and I do think I said exactly that last year too. Or the year before that. Honestly, I cant remember anymore.

I do agree though that they dont advertise it nearly enough. The ingame ads for sPvP tournaments is a special thorn in our eyes. Why no call to arms when your server is loosing in WvW? Why not more 1 week of WvW event bonuses at least once a month to encourage a flow of new players to become interested? Anet totally dropped the ball on the simple things.

What is interesting though is back before Megaservers, people did stand around in Lion’s Arch and advertise for the WvW game mode. Sure it was players but it was a lot easier to get people to join a guild or even get folks fired up to crack some skulls in WvW.

I’ve long said that the WvW community is a crazy solid core of players. The comment here about people pouring gold (and therefore money) into that game mode is very true.

Mysteriax.6049:

The forefront and selling point of your MMO.

This is because, quite simply, WvW provides a unique experience that other games simply haven’t matched yet.

Black Desert Online, Archage and even World of Warcraft are examples of games whose PvE environments compete with Guild Wars 2.

League of Legends, DOTA 2 and Overwatch are Esports games that compete with GW2 in the competitive PvP market.

Yet none of these games provide the kind of RvR experience that WvW has offered us. For now at least, ArenaNet, you have sole control over this very lucrative market.

ESO competes well against GW2 when it comes to WvW btw. Reading some comments here about ESO shows these individuals never played ESO past the first 2 months. ESO’s RvR is actually closer to DAOC’s RvR than GW2 WvW could ever hope to be. Its siege gameplay is built properly, as siege is set mainly to attack keeps & other siege, rather than utilized against players like we have it here. Heck ESO even got relic raids! If you want more DAOC nostalgia, I suggest giving ESO a look.

What doesn’t work for me about ESO is the clunky combat, GW2 has me spoiled. I just don’t prefer reticle targeting. Plus GW2 is more casual friendly, and that was always Anet’s strength (and its weakness).

GW2 being casual friendly is the main draw for a lot of players, both in PvE & WvW. Unfortunately the casual friendly nature of Anet’s development philosophy is why GW2 will never rise up to DAOC’s level when it comes to RvR. DAOC made RvR its endgame. You PvE grind and collected gear to ultimately RvR in order to progress your characters further. Here in GW2, you merely join in WvW as a side-game. There’s nothing special for you in WvW, nothing to progress your characters further in WvW. And there really is no goal in WvW, no relic raids, no player/guild stats to see, no reason to really siege a keep other than you just want to do it. A player could skip playing WvW and no one would notice a difference.

Anet doesn’t treat WvW as its endgame, that’s the problem. And they want to cater to casual players too much to make the changes necessary to take WvW to the next level. They want PvE players to step into WvW and feel comfortable & safe, hence why all the PvE gimmicks we have in WvW. The fact that in order for WvW team to make any class balance changes, they had to get the pass from the PvP team, shows you how wrong things are balanced. A dev slipped awhile back stating that in order to make some balance changes players were asking for, they had to get the OK from the PvP team. As if balancing 5v5 in a small instanced zone is anywhere the same as balancing 20v20 or 50v50 in large open world zones with siege gameplay.

I agree GW2 has the makings of a great WvW/RvR type of gamemode. I just don’t think Anet is the right company to make it happen. Just look at how GW2 had an organic GvG culture, and how Anet just closed a blind eye and did nothing to make skilled guilds to want to stay in GW2. Other games would kill to have that organic GvG scene. If you would remember, DAOC RvR was all about guild pride, all about skilled roaming squads, and its gameplay allowed skilled players to shine and mass kill blobby casuals. That just can’t happen here, not with 5 target limits on aoe’s, not with the class balance we have here, not with the siege infested culture we have here. We have to wait longer for that DAOC successor, and sadly I don’t think CU is it either, they are running into too much development issues and their team is too small.

gavyne.6847:

Mysteriax.6049:

The forefront and selling point of your MMO.

This is because, quite simply, WvW provides a unique experience that other games simply haven’t matched yet.

Black Desert Online, Archage and even World of Warcraft are examples of games whose PvE environments compete with Guild Wars 2.

League of Legends, DOTA 2 and Overwatch are Esports games that compete with GW2 in the competitive PvP market.

Yet none of these games provide the kind of RvR experience that WvW has offered us. For now at least, ArenaNet, you have sole control over this very lucrative market.

ESO competes well against GW2 when it comes to WvW btw. Reading some comments here about ESO shows these individuals never played ESO past the first 2 months. ESO’s RvR is actually closer to DAOC’s RvR than GW2 WvW could ever hope to be. Its siege gameplay is built properly, as siege is set mainly to attack keeps & other siege, rather than utilized against players like we have it here. Heck ESO even got relic raids! If you want more DAOC nostalgia, I suggest giving ESO a look.

What doesn’t work for me about ESO is the clunky combat, GW2 has me spoiled. I just don’t prefer reticle targeting. Plus GW2 is more casual friendly, and that was always Anet’s strength (and its weakness).

GW2 being casual friendly is the main draw for a lot of players, both in PvE & WvW. Unfortunately the casual friendly nature of Anet’s development philosophy is why GW2 will never rise up to DAOC’s level when it comes to RvR. DAOC made RvR its endgame. You PvE grind and collected gear to ultimately RvR in order to progress your characters further. Here in GW2, you merely join in WvW as a side-game. There’s nothing special for you in WvW, nothing to progress your characters further in WvW. And there really is no goal in WvW, no relic raids, no player/guild stats to see, no reason to really siege a keep other than you just want to do it. A player could skip playing WvW and no one would notice a difference.

Anet doesn’t treat WvW as its endgame, that’s the problem. And they want to cater to casual players too much to make the changes necessary to take WvW to the next level. They want PvE players to step into WvW and feel comfortable & safe, hence why all the PvE gimmicks we have in WvW. The fact that in order for WvW team to make any class balance changes, they had to get the pass from the PvP team, shows you how wrong things are balanced. A dev slipped awhile back stating that in order to make some balance changes players were asking for, they had to get the OK from the PvP team. As if balancing 5v5 in a small instanced zone is anywhere the same as balancing 20v20 or 50v50 in large open world zones with siege gameplay.

I agree GW2 has the makings of a great WvW/RvR type of gamemode. I just don’t think Anet is the right company to make it happen. Just look at how GW2 had an organic GvG culture, and how Anet just closed a blind eye and did nothing to make skilled guilds to want to stay in GW2. Other games would kill to have that organic GvG scene. If you would remember, DAOC RvR was all about guild pride, all about skilled roaming squads, and its gameplay allowed skilled players to shine and mass kill blobby casuals. That just can’t happen here, not with 5 target limits on aoe’s, not with the class balance we have here, not with the siege infested culture we have here. We have to wait longer for that DAOC successor, and sadly I don’t think CU is it either, they are running into too much development issues and their team is too small.

your whole post is spot on… +1

GW2 combat definitely has me spoiled. i didn’t even make it past beta in ESO because it felt so clunky, and just getting to level 10 or whatever to get into the RvR zone was such a grind.

I definitely hope you are wrong about CU though…feels like at this point it’s our only hope

DaOC had similar problems if those of us who played are being honest. Skeleg / Igraine reporting. Thane, Pac Healer, Shammy buff bot, Suppression Spiritmaster, Hunter, etc. List goes on and on (Anyone remember Hib guild Lurikeen Uprising?). Point is, we all had relic raids at 2 AM. We all faced population swings. We all faced Trials of Atlantis, Master Levels (get GW2 connection oddly enough ), artifacts, scrolls, etc. Every one of those things impacted the overall play of RvR.

Server transfers are not an option. We bought second and third accounts to move. Monthly fee / subscription based. Class balance issues, complaints in the system, etc. All similar issues with fighting a three way war with population caps. Mordred server didn’t really resolve it other than give it more life has did original rule set. So yeah, I’ve been around the DaOC block a time or two and enjoyed every minute of it. Great game, kudo’s to the team.

Camelot Unchained is the next in line successor. However, it is a ways off and should be. This is the last ditch effort that people will put money into their pockets Especially after Warhammer.

Point is, a game dating back to 2001 faced similar problems yet offered a few simple things that are lacking in a game dating 2016. And no, has much as I love Darkness Falls, that isn’kitten

What is missing is ne simple thing…

The Camelot Herald.

Web portal broke out weekly realm point earners by class, server, guild, and alliance. It didn’t stop there, you could search on anyone. Realm rank list, etc. Also showed the map, relic ownership, etc.

Yeah, player housing was nice. Darkness Falls, nice. Locked stats, nice. But the portal actually gave players something to brag about and aim for. Realm ranks, realm points, getting on the top 25, etc.

anet this last poll is a joke right? Fix the issues at hand and leave more siege crap out of this game. You are literally making this game all about siege and tower hugging than people actually learning to fight. You want deployable cannons keep that crap in eotm and out of wvw.

As an alpha tester of GW1, I remember Anet asked what other games we players like.
I answered: RE4 and “Shattered Galaxy” which may be an idea that enlighten Anet to create contents such as “GW1: Faction” and later GW2 WvW.

Swagger.1459:

Dawdler.8521:

Swagger.1459:

Unfortunately nothing will change enough here by the time the successor to DAoC hits the market, and wvw is going to take a population hit.

This has been repeated every half year for the last 3 years now I think and we still havent seen anything even remotely close to a beta of CU meaning it’s at least another 1-2 year left… and I do think I said exactly that last year too. Or the year before that. Honestly, I cant remember anymore.

That’s not the point. Point is that wvw in the current form will not compete with it unless Anet puts an expac worth of effort into it at some point. I highly doubt that will happen and we will see a huge chunk of players jumping ship for a better rvr experience. RvR here is currently an add on, and that’s drastically different than an entire game and classes and combat designed for RvR, with an engine that can handle mass combat better…

If and/or when Camelot Unchained is ever released, GW2’s wvw will never be able to compete with it, and that is not a bad thing, imo. Mark Jacobs said that he was going to make CU specifically for the very hard core wvw/rvr crowd, and anymore, that is a niche crowd. GW2’s wvw was never meant to be hard core…..it goes along with the rest of the game…..it is meant for a much larger playerbase that is geared more towards casual and medium hard core play.

If GW2 ever even had half a notion to compete with a hardcore wvw game, they missed that boat a long time ago. And , frankly, I don’t think they ever had that in their minds when they built GW2 with its soft core, casual style wvw. I doubt if they are even concerned about CU, as that will appeal to an entirely different, and much smaller overall playerbase.

I mostly play wvw in GW2, and I have absolutely no desire to try CU, after reading MJ’s comments about how it would be designed with the hard core grinder in mind. Thanks, but no thanks. Been there done that before with DaoC, and while it was fun at the time, MJ sounds like he wants to go even more hardcore and grindy with CU, and I have absolutely no desire to do that anymore. Makes the game too much like a job.

Anymore, I just want to play online games for fun. Period.

Crapgame.6519:

DaOC had similar problems if those of us who played are being honest. Skeleg / Igraine reporting. Thane, Pac Healer, Shammy buff bot, Suppression Spiritmaster, Hunter, etc. List goes on and on (Anyone remember Hib guild Lurikeen Uprising?). Point is, we all had relic raids at 2 AM. We all faced population swings. We all faced Trials of Atlantis, Master Levels (get GW2 connection oddly enough ), artifacts, scrolls, etc. Every one of those things impacted the overall play of RvR.

Server transfers are not an option. We bought second and third accounts to move. Monthly fee / subscription based. Class balance issues, complaints in the system, etc. All similar issues with fighting a three way war with population caps. Mordred server didn’t really resolve it other than give it more life has did original rule set. So yeah, I’ve been around the DaOC block a time or two and enjoyed every minute of it. Great game, kudo’s to the team.

Camelot Unchained is the next in line successor. However, it is a ways off and should be. This is the last ditch effort that people will put money into their pockets Especially after Warhammer.

Point is, a game dating back to 2001 faced similar problems yet offered a few simple things that are lacking in a game dating 2016. And no, has much as I love Darkness Falls, that isn’kitten

What is missing is ne simple thing…

The Camelot Herald.

Web portal broke out weekly realm point earners by class, server, guild, and alliance. It didn’t stop there, you could search on anyone. Realm rank list, etc. Also showed the map, relic ownership, etc.

Yeah, player housing was nice. Darkness Falls, nice. Locked stats, nice. But the portal actually gave players something to brag about and aim for. Realm ranks, realm points, getting on the top 25, etc.

Excellent, honest post on DaoC. It was a great game, but it sure had its own share of problems, some of them very severe. (radar cheating in wvw comes to mind…..that took way too long to eliminate). Balance was also a big problem in that game. It is in any mmorpg with wvw……balance is a never ending battle for the devs.

And yea, I think my wife and I had like 6 accounts between the two of us…..our accounts and then the other 4 were friends accounts that quit the game.

Also agree on the Herald. It added a whole other means of what could be very specific sorts of bragging rights, due to its ability to sort out all sorts of different point/kill/capture totals.

gavyne.6847:

Mysteriax.6049:

The forefront and selling point of your MMO.

This is because, quite simply, WvW provides a unique experience that other games simply haven’t matched yet.

Black Desert Online, Archage and even World of Warcraft are examples of games whose PvE environments compete with Guild Wars 2.

League of Legends, DOTA 2 and Overwatch are Esports games that compete with GW2 in the competitive PvP market.

Yet none of these games provide the kind of RvR experience that WvW has offered us. For now at least, ArenaNet, you have sole control over this very lucrative market.

ESO competes well against GW2 when it comes to WvW btw. Reading some comments here about ESO shows these individuals never played ESO past the first 2 months. ESO’s RvR is actually closer to DAOC’s RvR than GW2 WvW could ever hope to be. Its siege gameplay is built properly, as siege is set mainly to attack keeps & other siege, rather than utilized against players like we have it here. Heck ESO even got relic raids! If you want more DAOC nostalgia, I suggest giving ESO a look.

What doesn’t work for me about ESO is the clunky combat, GW2 has me spoiled. I just don’t prefer reticle targeting. Plus GW2 is more casual friendly, and that was always Anet’s strength (and its weakness).

GW2 being casual friendly is the main draw for a lot of players, both in PvE & WvW. Unfortunately the casual friendly nature of Anet’s development philosophy is why GW2 will never rise up to DAOC’s level when it comes to RvR. DAOC made RvR its endgame. You PvE grind and collected gear to ultimately RvR in order to progress your characters further. Here in GW2, you merely join in WvW as a side-game. There’s nothing special for you in WvW, nothing to progress your characters further in WvW. And there really is no goal in WvW, no relic raids, no player/guild stats to see, no reason to really siege a keep other than you just want to do it. A player could skip playing WvW and no one would notice a difference.

Anet doesn’t treat WvW as its endgame, that’s the problem. And they want to cater to casual players too much to make the changes necessary to take WvW to the next level. They want PvE players to step into WvW and feel comfortable & safe, hence why all the PvE gimmicks we have in WvW. The fact that in order for WvW team to make any class balance changes, they had to get the pass from the PvP team, shows you how wrong things are balanced. A dev slipped awhile back stating that in order to make some balance changes players were asking for, they had to get the OK from the PvP team. As if balancing 5v5 in a small instanced zone is anywhere the same as balancing 20v20 or 50v50 in large open world zones with siege gameplay.

I agree GW2 has the makings of a great WvW/RvR type of gamemode. I just don’t think Anet is the right company to make it happen. Just look at how GW2 had an organic GvG culture, and how Anet just closed a blind eye and did nothing to make skilled guilds to want to stay in GW2. Other games would kill to have that organic GvG scene. If you would remember, DAOC RvR was all about guild pride, all about skilled roaming squads, and its gameplay allowed skilled players to shine and mass kill blobby casuals. That just can’t happen here, not with 5 target limits on aoe’s, not with the class balance we have here, not with the siege infested culture we have here. We have to wait longer for that DAOC successor, and sadly I don’t think CU is it either, they are running into too much development issues and their team is too small.

This isn’t the problem. GW2 isn’t a WvW game. WvW should never be The endgame like you and several others have suggested. Yes, by all means it should be stepped up a lot and it should focus on endgame players. But it shouldn’t be The endgame. That wouldn’t solve anything. GW2 is and always has been a PvE game. The hardest content in the game has always been PvE oriented. Dungeons when it was released. Then fractals. Now Raids. PvE is the endgame, not WvW.

That said WvW could be improved by only allowing “endgame” players and not being so casual friendly.

gavyne.6847:

GW2 being casual friendly is the main draw for a lot of players, both in PvE & WvW. Unfortunately the casual friendly nature of Anet’s development philosophy is why GW2 will never rise up to DAOC’s level when it comes to RvR. DAOC made RvR its endgame. You PvE grind and collected gear to ultimately RvR in order to progress your characters further. Here in GW2, you merely join in WvW as a side-game. There’s nothing special for you in WvW, nothing to progress your characters further in WvW. And there really is no goal in WvW, no relic raids, no player/guild stats to see, no reason to really siege a keep other than you just want to do it. A player could skip playing WvW and no one would notice a difference.

Perfectly said. Completely agree.

OriOri.8724:

This isn’t the problem. GW2 isn’t a WvW game. WvW should never be The endgame like you and several others have suggested. Yes, by all means it should be stepped up a lot and it should focus on endgame players. But it shouldn’t be The endgame. That wouldn’t solve anything. GW2 is and always has been a PvE game. The hardest content in the game has always been PvE oriented. Dungeons when it was released. Then fractals. Now Raids. PvE is the endgame, not WvW.

I am not sure if those of us with DaoC backgrounds were suggesting that GW2’s wvw should be the endgame. I agree with you on how GW2 has approached wvw. My point about DaoC was that WVW was structured to be the end game in DaoC from the very start…….not that GW2 should be like that……just that GW2 isn’t like that, and as you said…..PvE has always been the main emphasis with GW2, and that is not necessarily a bad thing……just the way the game was built from the start.

And for those players that want wvw to be GW2’s endgame, that is a complete impossibility at this point. The game would have to be completely redone, and that is not going to happen. The playerbase loss if they did that would be disastrous for this game, as the vast majority of players in GW2 are not wvw’ers.

Teon.5168:

I mostly play wvw in GW2, and I have absolutely no desire to try CU, after reading MJ’s comments about how it would be designed with the hard core grinder in mind. Thanks, but no thanks. Been there done that before with DaoC, and while it was fun at the time, MJ sounds like he wants to go even more hardcore and grindy with CU, and I have absolutely no desire to do that anymore. Makes the game too much like a job.

Thats pretty funny considering how grindy GW2 is, and there is no indication that CU will be hardcore in a grindy way AFAIK.

WvWvW has peaked. I’ve let that go lol.

• The game engine was old back then, what was supposed to be a GW1 expansion turned into GW2. The engine cannot handle a modern day RvR experience so that’s dead in the water.

• GW2 is a PvE game and its B2P model means it must cater to casual players at the expense of all else for max profit. WvWvW will forever be a meaningless side game.

Personally, I can’t really see scripted battles as being endgame because players are far more unpredictable and create a much more replayable experience. Oh look this boss is gonna do this at 50% health, what do we do? The same thing we do every night Pinky. The main reason I’d repeat max cap PvE was for gear…to go PvP. It’s the reason I did it in D.O, Lineage II, GW2, Aion, Age of Conan, Archeage, WoW (trolling around Alliance territory on my Prot Pally was the best) and probably would’ve done it in ESO too if the combat wasn’t such a clunker. Anet let a huge opportunity slip right through their fingers with WvWvW. That ship has sailed. Shame.

morrolan.9608:

Teon.5168:

I mostly play wvw in GW2, and I have absolutely no desire to try CU, after reading MJ’s comments about how it would be designed with the hard core grinder in mind. Thanks, but no thanks. Been there done that before with DaoC, and while it was fun at the time, MJ sounds like he wants to go even more hardcore and grindy with CU, and I have absolutely no desire to do that anymore. Makes the game too much like a job.

Thats pretty funny considering how grindy GW2 is, and there is no indication that CU will be hardcore in a grindy way AFAIK.

You have to be kidding. Did you ever play DaoC(or Everquest, LotRo, CoH, AoC, Aion, etc) in its original, exceptionally grindy form? And Mark Jacobs wants to make CU even more hardcore than that.

It took many months to get to the highest levels in those games, unless you could spend 8 hours+ a day in front of your monitor. GW2 to get to highest levels takes mere weeks, even for a casual player. And yea, it takes a lot longer to get legendaries, but they aren’t required to be successful in the game.

People who think that GW2 is grindy make me chuckle, as it is so easy compared to earlier mmorpgs. Have you ever played an mmorpg that had serious death penatlites, (where you lost gear, xp, etc.) only gave xp for very certain things, or required you to grind killing thousands of npcs for certain goals???

Think Korean mmorpgs. (they’re far worse than the original grindy mmorpgs were here in the states, but you get the jist….)

GW2 is a casual player’s paradise, imo. That is the main reason that attracted me and my wife to this game……we wanted to get away from the really nasty grinds….and this game has delivered that.

Maybe 10-15 years ago I would have accepted that kind of grindy mmorpg, as that is all there was, then. But, GW2 has proved that playing an mmorpg doesn’t have to feel like a job, as the earlier mmorpgs were. It can be just about fun, and playing the game on your own, casual schedule, and STILL making substantial progress in the game.

Teon.5168:

OriOri.8724:

This isn’t the problem. GW2 isn’t a WvW game. WvW should never be The endgame like you and several others have suggested. Yes, by all means it should be stepped up a lot and it should focus on endgame players. But it shouldn’t be The endgame. That wouldn’t solve anything. GW2 is and always has been a PvE game. The hardest content in the game has always been PvE oriented. Dungeons when it was released. Then fractals. Now Raids. PvE is the endgame, not WvW.

I am not sure if those of us with DaoC backgrounds were suggesting that GW2’s wvw should be the endgame. I agree with you on how GW2 has approached wvw. My point about DaoC was that WVW was structured to be the end game in DaoC from the very start

This is actually very true. The whole premise of DaOC was about player vs. player and bounties. Realm points didn’t come into the picture until one of the devs said um, bounty points was a bit, er, barbaric Anyway, the poster above is correct.

The end state of DaOC was Realm vs. Realm. There was no raiding or hard core end game PvE. There was no arena, no battle grounds, nothing. You did PvE / Fed Ex quests only to level up. At level 21 you had the ability to port to your upland map depending on which code base it was running, and RvR. Note, and this is the most important part. You are level 21, end game was level 50 at launch. Why enter RvR maps at such a low level? Because the Reward (one shot, steam rolled, camped, farted on, what have you) outweighed the Risk. Simple in that yeah it was risky business but man, the incredible EXP, gold, and other stuff was well worth it. Not to mention the thrill.

Each realm had some NPC’s that tough. Nessie is one – how many times we all died crossing that stupid river only to have her kill us. There was a huge Dragon – mob rule / zerg her to death. Took many servers a very long time to win that fight. Darkness Falls boss. Another NPC that took many of our lives. Few dungeons here and there, but mostly go here, kill this, and return. Next up.

At the end of the day you reach level cap, craft some gear (it was usually best in slot), set stats you want, and go RvR. Party up with 8 players, one of which used speed (skald, minstrel for example), and hunt. Stealth parties would camp gates. Stealth could climb walls. List goes on and on.

Short version? PvE was only a means to the end. The end was RvR. That is it. Data was posted to the herald for all to see, brag, and laugh at. Really was a solid community all things considered.

Teon.5168:

morrolan.9608:

Teon.5168:

I mostly play wvw in GW2, and I have absolutely no desire to try CU, after reading MJ’s comments about how it would be designed with the hard core grinder in mind. Thanks, but no thanks. Been there done that before with DaoC, and while it was fun at the time, MJ sounds like he wants to go even more hardcore and grindy with CU, and I have absolutely no desire to do that anymore. Makes the game too much like a job.

Thats pretty funny considering how grindy GW2 is, and there is no indication that CU will be hardcore in a grindy way AFAIK.

You have to be kidding. Did you ever play DaoC(or Everquest, LotRo, CoH, AoC, Aion, etc) in its original, exceptionally grindy form? And Mark Jacobs wants to make CU even more hardcore than that.

I think you’re misinterpreting what he means by hardcore. Its a RvRvR game only, no PvE questing, which means it will be playable from when you enter the game, it has to be, we won’t have to grind for realm ranks to be effective.

Yes those early mmos were grindy the world has moved on. What is an acceptable grind now is different.

Teon.5168:

morrolan.9608:

Teon.5168:

I mostly play wvw in GW2, and I have absolutely no desire to try CU, after reading MJ’s comments about how it would be designed with the hard core grinder in mind. Thanks, but no thanks. Been there done that before with DaoC, and while it was fun at the time, MJ sounds like he wants to go even more hardcore and grindy with CU, and I have absolutely no desire to do that anymore. Makes the game too much like a job.

Thats pretty funny considering how grindy GW2 is, and there is no indication that CU will be hardcore in a grindy way AFAIK.

You have to be kidding. Did you ever play DaoC(or Everquest, LotRo, CoH, AoC, Aion, etc) in its original, exceptionally grindy form? And Mark Jacobs wants to make CU even more hardcore than that.

It took many months to get to the highest levels in those games, unless you could spend 8 hours+ a day in front of your monitor. GW2 to get to highest levels takes mere weeks, even for a casual player. And yea, it takes a lot longer to get legendaries, but they aren’t required to be successful in the game.

People who think that GW2 is grindy make me chuckle, as it is so easy compared to earlier mmorpgs. Have you ever played an mmorpg that had serious death penatlites, (where you lost gear, xp, etc.) only gave xp for very certain things, or required you to grind killing thousands of npcs for certain goals???

Think Korean mmorpgs. (they’re far worse than the original grindy mmorpgs were here in the states, but you get the jist….)

GW2 is a casual player’s paradise, imo. That is the main reason that attracted me and my wife to this game……we wanted to get away from the really nasty grinds….and this game has delivered that.

Maybe 10-15 years ago I would have accepted that kind of grindy mmorpg, as that is all there was, then. But, GW2 has proved that playing an mmorpg doesn’t have to feel like a job, as the earlier mmorpgs were. It can be just about fun, and playing the game on your own, casual schedule, and STILL making substantial progress in the game.

+1 for good post. Summed things up very well.

Mysteriax.6049:

The forefront and selling point of your MMO.

This is because, quite simply, WvW provides a unique experience that other games simply haven’t matched yet.

Black Desert Online, Archage and even World of Warcraft are examples of games whose PvE environments compete with Guild Wars 2.

League of Legends, DOTA 2 and Overwatch are Esports games that compete with GW2 in the competitive PvP market.

Yet none of these games provide the kind of RvR experience that WvW has offered us. For now at least, ArenaNet, you have sole control over this very lucrative market.

But not for long.

The success of Dark Age of Camelot shows that large-scale PvP is in high demand, and that when fostered correctly, a RvR format (like WvW) can grow and prosper alongside a loyal playerbase.

ANet, in a time when GW2 is steadily aging and other developing titles seek to compete in the valuable RvR market, think not of short-term profit, but using your collective talent and abilities to foster long-term growth.

Address the tough issues of scoring, population and profession balance. Take a stand and show your playerbase that you’re ready to accept WvW not for what it is, but what it can become.

Thank you for reading.

Really? I always considered guild wars 2 to be unique in other ways, it has more of a variety of game modes in equal footing if you ask me, I didnt play wvw much but it didnt seem all that great to be honest. But maybe I need to play it more.

Unfortunately this ship has sailed a long time ago, it’s not even a case of having a small window to capitalize, they literally had years to capitalize and just kitten ed right out. They basically threw a winning lottery ticket in the garbage, took a crap in it, then lit it on fire before tossing it into the ocean.

Nuzt.7894:

Unfortunately this ship has sailed a long time ago, it’s not even a case of having a small window to capitalize, they literally had years to capitalize and just kitten ed right out. They basically threw a winning lottery ticket in the garbage, took a crap in it, then lit it on fire before tossing it into the ocean.

I disagree. The larger playerbase, and therefore, more money, is to be made with casual players.

The hardcore wvw playerbase is a much smaller niche, imo.

Teon.5168:

Nuzt.7894:

Unfortunately this ship has sailed a long time ago, it’s not even a case of having a small window to capitalize, they literally had years to capitalize and just kitten ed right out. They basically threw a winning lottery ticket in the garbage, took a crap in it, then lit it on fire before tossing it into the ocean.

I disagree. The larger playerbase, and therefore, more money, is to be made with casual players.

The hardcore wvw playerbase is a much smaller niche, imo.

Actually this has been much debated and the casual base is not more and it also depends on what you mean by casual, I see far more regular daily or every 2 3 day people in this game then once a week people so that wouldnt even make sense, raids is not hardcore, if you mean elitist attitudes that has nothing to do with what your considering what hardcore is, an hour long raid is far from hardcore gaming, if thats the case then every game you can play for an hour is hardcore, every game with a normal difficulty and up is hardcore, you people need to get your facts straight dont spew nonsense if you dont understand gaming please its offensive as hek man.

Teon.5168:

Nuzt.7894:

Unfortunately this ship has sailed a long time ago, it’s not even a case of having a small window to capitalize, they literally had years to capitalize and just kitten ed right out. They basically threw a winning lottery ticket in the garbage, took a crap in it, then lit it on fire before tossing it into the ocean.

I disagree. The larger playerbase, and therefore, more money, is to be made with casual players.

The hardcore wvw playerbase is a much smaller niche, imo.

Remove hardcore please. For whatever reason people keep trying to connect WvW to hardcore play style in this game or try and connect it to DaOC.

GW2 we have:
PvE / Raids – tethered encounters, quests, and other stuff mixed in with master levels.
WvW – open world PvP spanning borderland and central map, anything goes
sPvP – confined space pvp, limited gear (amulets, runes, sigils)

DaOC – Pre Trials of Atlantis had:
PvE – tethered encounters, quests, to reach max level
RvR – open world pvp, towers, keeps, relics, realm point / rank (12)

Camelot Herald – to post top weekly guilds, players, by class, alliance, etc. Anyone can search / find active player by search if not on top 25. That is each class, guild, and alliance.

Each player was worth 900 points. If 10 people killed or part of kill or healed during kill it was divided. Easy, right? 900 / 10 = each got 90 points. If solo kill then that player got all 900. Easy. Equal share, kittening UTOPIA! Ok, kidding aside, that is generally how it worked.

Play at your pace, solo roaming, duo, guarding gates, taking relics – whatever or however you play, you only PvE to max level of 50. Nothing else you can really do outside craft or player housing until later in the content (Isles expansion or Trials of Atlantis). The end game was to go out, find players, and fight…

Ryou.2398:

Teon.5168:

Nuzt.7894:

Unfortunately this ship has sailed a long time ago, it’s not even a case of having a small window to capitalize, they literally had years to capitalize and just kitten ed right out. They basically threw a winning lottery ticket in the garbage, took a crap in it, then lit it on fire before tossing it into the ocean.

I disagree. The larger playerbase, and therefore, more money, is to be made with casual players.

The hardcore wvw playerbase is a much smaller niche, imo.

Actually this has been much debated and the casual base is not more and it also depends on what you mean by casual, I see far more regular daily or every 2 3 day people in this game then once a week people so that wouldnt even make sense, raids is not hardcore, if you mean elitist attitudes that has nothing to do with what your considering what hardcore is, an hour long raid is far from hardcore gaming, if thats the case then every game you can play for an hour is hardcore, every game with a normal difficulty and up is hardcore, you people need to get your facts straight dont spew nonsense if you dont understand gaming please its offensive as hek man.

Sorry, but that doesn’t make any sense at all to me. Why else would so many mmorpgs be going toward an easier “grind”, as well as easier leveling?

The “hardcore” players that existed 10-15 years ago are now older, have more real life responsibilities, longer hours required by their jobs, family, etc. Sure, the younger playerbase is more hard core, but the older playerbase has more money to spend on these games, hence the movement to more casual based mmorpgs.

Jmo, of course.

Teon.5168:

Nuzt.7894:

Unfortunately this ship has sailed a long time ago, it’s not even a case of having a small window to capitalize, they literally had years to capitalize and just kitten ed right out. They basically threw a winning lottery ticket in the garbage, took a crap in it, then lit it on fire before tossing it into the ocean.

I disagree. The larger playerbase, and therefore, more money, is to be made with casual players.

The hardcore wvw playerbase is a much smaller niche, imo.

I don’t think anyone would deny that. But the point often made is that WvWvW players, while a smaller base than PvE, were still plentiful (we even got an overflow map) and many were the kind of passionate players that would’ve played this game forever yet Anet failed to grow it. That’s the issue.

Game companies would kill for the kind of players that play through poor rewards, develop a subcultures (GvG and fight clubs) and an actual ecosystem, spend money and time creating community resources like server voice comms and websites and even videos that make the game actually look like fun, something that can be more effective than try hard corporate hype. It could have attracted even more people but nope, Anet aimed for Living Story chieve chasing, gem shop outfits and tried to attract people who already had their MOBA that they played (meanwhile, there was no RvR competition lol).