Guild Wars 2

It’s rather unappealing reading all of these posts stating that either:

1) ANet created WvW to appeal to zergs
2) ANet needs to do something about zergs

I do not believe that ANet created WvW with zerging in mind, nor do I think they encourage it. People need to realize that the zerging of today is not developer created, but rather played created.

Put it in perspective. If you were back in high school, and you were approached by a group of 5 people that were being aggressive and hankering to fight, but you only had 1 friend with you, what would your next move be? More than likely if you are forced to fight, you’d look to even up the numbers so that you dont get slaughtered. Now apply this concept to WvW, because it is awfully similar. If you are being rushed by a group larger than yours, instinct is to either run, or gather enough forces to be able to combat the other groups numbers. This in itself develops zerging. Eventually each side will get more and more people on their side so that the odds of being run over by a potentially larger group will diminish.

Humans, as well as other animals in nature realize that there is safety in numbers, so next time you ask ANet to get rid of zerging, or blame them for the mindless zerg mentality that is WvW these days, maybe you should consider human instincts for once.

They definitely encourage it and really, they should. “Massively Multiplayer” is not 5 guys running around capping towers or solo duelists meeting in the street. For an MMOG, I’d call 50 vs 50 “a good start”.

The problem isn’t zergs.

The problem is “karma trains”. Zergs that don’t fight other zergs — they just run around in circles capping towers and supply camps back and forth. Towers fall too fast for defenders to show up and standing there ready for an attack that may or may not come is unrewarding and boring.

There’s nothing wrong with zergs and in fact, the game SHOULD encourage and support them. The problem is karma trains and systems that overly reward PvP avoidance.

No, they make it more rewarding/easier to zerg, THAT makes a lot of people do it.

Some of us still roam in small groups, we don’t get as many rewards as the zergers because we choose to play counter to what ANET has made the most advantageous.

Down System
AOE limit
WXP Point system distribution for kills/keeps
just to point out a few.

All favor zerging, All ANET created, add it up. Yes, people create zergs, you are correct, but they do so because ANET has made it the most efficient/easiest way to play/gain. And THAT is where human nature kicks in.

It’s only half truth.

If the WvW maps were bigger, you wouldn’t see such big zergs. People like to survive yes, but they also like to win. If the map were bigger and you were not able to defend/attack everything with a single zerg, people would spread out.

Also, the AoE limit of 5 people just encourage people to stack and make a giant blob. Because like you said, people like to stay alive. And what’s better then an AoE cap that prevent damage when having good number?

And now the new flavor : WXP. Why do something alone to gain WXP, when you can get the same WXP a lot faster by joining a giant blop of people doing a WXP train.

Finaly, the downed state is just the nail in the coffin. 10 players defending a tower again 30 players. Even with full siege and upgraded tower, the 10 players usually find themself in an unending loop : They downed people, they even kill them, but each time the giant blob instant rez them. People feel like they can’t really die because downed state/rez make sure they can be back up in the fight right away.

Sure players created the zerg, but there is only Anet that can do something about it. They added mecanism in game that favorised the zerg, so player just follow the way.

Why not take this to the next logical extent: WXP/EXP/Karma reward scaling. One can argue ANet created in-game Zergs by:
1.) Removing any reward -sans PPT/minimal EXP- from Dolyaks. (Mainly for Dolyak defense, but you see the point.)
2.) Making rewards higher for capture than for defense
3.) Capping player AoE at 5 targets. I mean, seriously … I can see A cap (since you
want siege to be useful in mass combat), but a cap that bleeding LOW? C’mon, at least rock out with a 10-target cap on players. Or scale AoE with an “epicenter,” as many forumers have mentioned.

Facts that counter:
1. AOE cap
2. Zergs reward more wxp because it doesnt divide wxp
3. Doylaks give more points for the more people contributing to the kill.

Kardiamond.6952:

It’s only half truth.

If the WvW maps were bigger, you wouldn’t see such big zergs. People like to survive yes, but they also like to win. If the map were bigger and you were not able to defend/attack everything with a single zerg, people would spread out.

Also, the AoE limit of 5 people just encourage people to stack and make a giant blob. Because like you said, people like to stay alive. And what’s better then an AoE cap that prevent damage when having good number?

And now the new flavor : WXP. Why do something alone to gain WXP, when you can get the same WXP a lot faster by joining a giant blop of people doing a WXP train.

Finaly, the downed state is just the nail in the coffin. 10 players defending a tower again 30 players. Even with full siege and upgraded tower, the 10 players usually find themself in an unending loop : They downed people, they even kill them, but each time the giant blob instant rez them. People feel like they can’t really die because downed state/rez make sure they can be back up in the fight right away.

Sure players created the zerg, but there is only Anet that can do something about it. They added mecanism in game that favorised the zerg, so player just follow the way.

This is where I have to disagree. At least in Tier 1 where my server currently resides, with me playing mainly at our off peak hours from midnight to around 4 AM, I constantly find myself getting ~10 of us to rally up in Ogrewatch for example, manning some AC’s and ballistas and usually being able to defend our tower from zergs of ~35-40 people. It really is not that difficult.

Try playing in a server that constantly finds itself with the outmanned buff and you will find yourself devising tactics to counter the larger zergs while having lesser players on your side.

Also, to the players talking about Karma trains in WvW, I can attest to the fact that we play for the pride of capturing X objective against X odds. We dont take stonemist for the karma, we take it for the PPT as well as pride. WXP and the karma/silver/exp rewards are a nice addition to the lootbags received from taking out an enemy force and capturing the main objective on a map.

It may be different on the lower tier servers, but I dont experience the issues you mention here on the top tier servers.

Torqky.3682:

Facts that counter:
1. AOE cap
2. Zergs reward more wxp because it doesnt divide wxp
3. Doylaks give more points for the more people contributing to the kill.

1. Not a huge issue, ask the brigade of confusion bomb mesmers I usually have in my small group of ~15. Its not terribly hard defeating larger groups when they’re killing their selves while trying to kill you.
2. Not once do we say “Hey lets go take X tower and X supply camp, im almost Rank 10!”
3. Not once do we say “Hey we need more people over here at X supply camp to take out these Dolyaks, I really want more WXP!”

I think these are all petty points and definitely ones I havent encountered, which is saying something because if I devoted as much time to getting my legendary as I do to WvW, I’d have freaking Eternity by now.

There are aspects that both encourage and discourage zergs. The ones that encourage it have been stated numerous times and so I will add something that discourages it.

-No raid system.

Groups are limited to 5 people. No in-game coms if you could have a larger group. Primitive grouping actions. All you have is a pretty basic targeting system. There is no way to mark enemies nor friendlies.

Avenge.1478:

Torqky.3682:

Facts that counter:
1. AOE cap
2. Zergs reward more wxp because it doesnt divide wxp
3. Doylaks give more points for the more people contributing to the kill.

1. Not a huge issue, ask the brigade of confusion bomb mesmers I usually have in my small group of ~15. Its not terribly hard defeating larger groups when they’re killing their selves while trying to kill you.
2. Not once do we say “Hey lets go take X tower and X supply camp, im almost Rank 10!”
3. Not once do we say “Hey we need more people over here at X supply camp to take out these Dolyaks, I really want more WXP!”

I think these are all petty points and definitely ones I havent encountered, which is saying something because if I devoted as much time to getting my legendary as I do to WvW, I’d have freaking Eternity by now.

You’re not getting the point of the posts…

it’s MORE advantageous. No one said you HAD to.

No one ever “Says” that they are doing what they are doing for wxp, it just happens that way as part of the normal play of the game. But zerging is the path of least resistance.

If everyone in the room says the carpet is red, and you think it’s green… an eye exam may be in order.

Musty.3148:

Avenge.1478:

Torqky.3682:

Facts that counter:
1. AOE cap
2. Zergs reward more wxp because it doesnt divide wxp
3. Doylaks give more points for the more people contributing to the kill.

1. Not a huge issue, ask the brigade of confusion bomb mesmers I usually have in my small group of ~15. Its not terribly hard defeating larger groups when they’re killing their selves while trying to kill you.
2. Not once do we say “Hey lets go take X tower and X supply camp, im almost Rank 10!”
3. Not once do we say “Hey we need more people over here at X supply camp to take out these Dolyaks, I really want more WXP!”

I think these are all petty points and definitely ones I havent encountered, which is saying something because if I devoted as much time to getting my legendary as I do to WvW, I’d have freaking Eternity by now.

You’re not getting the point of the posts…

it’s MORE advantageous. No one said you HAD to.

No one ever “Says” that they are doing what they are doing for wxp, it just happens that way as part of the normal play of the game. But zerging is the path of least resistance.

If everyone in the room says the carpet is red, and you think it’s green… an eye exam may be in order.

“Zerging is the path of least resistance”

Yes, because human nature dictates so, as I previously stated. It’s not the GW2 rewards system. It all goes back to human nature and our instinct to group up to overcome resistance. It really doesnt have much to do with the GW2 WvW system, you essentially are stating it yourself whether you realize it or not.

I’d much rather bring my guild and our 15-20 down into watergate, speedbuild a couple of golems, and ninja an objective than run with 50 chickens with their heads cut off. I think most people would agree. The only ones usually looking for fast badges and karma are PUGs.

No reward for the small stuff.
Lots of reward for the big stuff.
The big stuff cannot be taken by the small stuffs.
So the small stuffs become big stuffs and cap both big and small stuffs.
This paragraph contains stuff.

Point is; one person gains little reward for contributing as one person. But gains a lot of reward for joining the crowd. Players optimise their experience and gain based on the reward system in place. Scale XP/Karma/WXP by the number of taking objectives. 50 people taking a keep == good. 50 people taking a camp == bad. 50 people killing a dolyak == jebus. Same in reverse; 10 people HOLDING a keep against 50 == good… etc.

Regardless, Anet are smart enough to sort this out.

Also, please make future maps BIGGER.

And also nerf thieves.

Also fix skill lag.

I think that just about covers it.

This is one of those “We created SkyNet and brought about the end of humanity” moments.

Avenge.1478:

1. Not a huge issue, ask the brigade of confusion bomb mesmers I usually have in my small group of ~15. Its not terribly hard defeating larger groups when they’re killing their selves while trying to kill you.
2. Not once do we say “Hey lets go take X tower and X supply camp, im almost Rank 10!”
3. Not once do we say “Hey we need more people over here at X supply camp to take out these Dolyaks, I really want more WXP!”

YOU don’t say these things but plenty of other people do. Those karma trains flipping supply camps back and forth aren’t timing it with scoring ticks, so that’s not why they do it. They rarely run down dolyaks that have already left the camp unless they are close by, so they aren’t really doing it to starve supplies.

They are doing it because they want more WXP/karma/XP/loot.

It would be amusing if Anet removed all rewards for supply camps, like they did for dolyak escorting. Then we’d see how many groups are flipping camps for strategic reasons and how many were just farming for personal rewards. I bet supply camp flip rates would drop by somewhere between 50% and 90%.

Really it’s not that Anet rewards “zergs”, it’s that they reward karma trains (now also WXP trains) and the train works just as well with 50 people as with 10. (In fact if you have 50 people you can insta-zerg towers almost as well as supply camps.)

Rising Dusk.2408:

This is one of those “We created SkyNet and brought about the end of humanity” moments.

Dun dun dun dun dun… dun dun dun dun dun…

Only John Connor can save us now

Its just like real life. You going to tell a army oh you cheaters you have more people than us in battle. In WvW, sometimes you have the numbers sometimes you don’t. Its that simple, nothing wrong with zergs, they can be annoying if not in your favor for sure.

Avenge.1478:

Musty.3148:

Avenge.1478:

Torqky.3682:

Facts that counter:
1. AOE cap
2. Zergs reward more wxp because it doesnt divide wxp
3. Doylaks give more points for the more people contributing to the kill.

1. Not a huge issue, ask the brigade of confusion bomb mesmers I usually have in my small group of ~15. Its not terribly hard defeating larger groups when they’re killing their selves while trying to kill you.
2. Not once do we say “Hey lets go take X tower and X supply camp, im almost Rank 10!”
3. Not once do we say “Hey we need more people over here at X supply camp to take out these Dolyaks, I really want more WXP!”

I think these are all petty points and definitely ones I havent encountered, which is saying something because if I devoted as much time to getting my legendary as I do to WvW, I’d have freaking Eternity by now.

You’re not getting the point of the posts…

it’s MORE advantageous. No one said you HAD to.

No one ever “Says” that they are doing what they are doing for wxp, it just happens that way as part of the normal play of the game. But zerging is the path of least resistance.

If everyone in the room says the carpet is red, and you think it’s green… an eye exam may be in order.

“Zerging is the path of least resistance”

Yes, because human nature dictates so, as I previously stated. It’s not the GW2 rewards system. It all goes back to human nature and our instinct to group up to overcome resistance. It really doesnt have much to do with the GW2 WvW system, you essentially are stating it yourself whether you realize it or not.

I’d much rather bring my guild and our 15-20 down into watergate, speedbuild a couple of golems, and ninja an objective than run with 50 chickens with their heads cut off. I think most people would agree. The only ones usually looking for fast badges and karma are PUGs.

Good Lord man, I am not stating it, I and everyone else in this thread put down several major things that *ANET put in the game* that makes it EASIER/BETTER/MORE EFFICIENT to zerg. THAT is why people do it.

Small (read miniscule) map size
AOE Cap
Downed state
rewards greater WXP/points for larger numbers
easier to gain wxp by quickly overwhelming objectives with superior numbers
etc.
etc.

I’m with ya, I run in groups of 5 or less, I find it MUCH more appealing. But I’m telling you, if you can’t see that ANET has made a system that encourages zergballing we simply can’t help you.

Avenge.1478:

Rising Dusk.2408:

This is one of those “We created SkyNet and brought about the end of humanity” moments.

Dun dun dun dun dun… dun dun dun dun dun…

Only John Connor can save us now

As an amusing aside: Is it me, or is John Connor a big-time Marty Stu?
This guy:
1.) Engineers his own birth. (Go ahead, tell me he didn’t realize that Kyle’d boff Sarah )
2.) Has transcendant H@x-mojo. (Who else can reprogram Skynet’s pets like he can?)
3.) Is arguably immune to temporal whackery. (Can, and has managed to remove Skynet from the timestream on occasion, without himself vanishing.)

I tell you, he’s not human … he’s a sneak-Gallifreyan.

Stop thinking of towers as objects to be defended, upgraded and held for points. Now think of them as treasure chests which can only be opened once you break in and kill the guards. You have every incentive to ignore your chests, capture enemy ones while they capture yours, then come back to your chest to retake it from the enemy. There is no reason to stop the enemy from opening your treasure chest – your time is better spend opening the enemy’s treasure chest so you can loot it, come back to your are (while the enemy is back in their area) and loot your treasure chest again. The rewards for defending an objective usually are only worthwhile if you’re one of those people who runs supply to the wall being trebbed. It provides reliable income over a long period of time (trebbing a wall down takes a long time, especially if it’s repaired during the process). An actual zerg hitting an objective will take it before one or two defend events complete, especially if your allied zerg is off looting a treasure chest elsewhere.

You get the same rewards for taking a tower whether you do it with four people or 100 people. If you could bring 25 people into a dungeon path, everyone would do it because that would complete the path much faster and make the content trivial. It would make it go much faster. Zerging is encouraged in almost every way by the game design.

Even in tier one there aren’t enough people for all maps at all times of the day so you usually get a couple static maps and then giant zergs on the karma train, hitting keep after tower after camp. Once they full cap the map (from little to no resistance it’s basically PvDoor) they leave and do the same thing elsewhere until they are tired. If the map is lost while they are gone, they retake the map and repeat the karma train process all over again.

It’s in the design of WvW for maps to favour zerging. That’s the best way to take something quickly, to build enough siege to accomplish an objective and to defend against any small resistance that might be there. If you can’t take it with a zerg, a small ops team certainly can’t take it, if you can take it with a small ops team, a zerg will take it faster. Why bother going small when going big gives more rewards?

^ What happens when groups play for PPT and not rewards? In Tier 1, rewards are an afterthought to PPT and maintaining, upgrading, and sieging our own towers. It must be radically different on smaller servers then, because in T1 it’s all about maintaining and building on the PPT.

It’s necessarily true that human action and coordination creates what we call the “zerg.”

But I would argue that the incentives created by the game structure encourage that particular action by making it the most efficient way of achieving numerous in-game goals.

I think the mindset Shiren points out is pretty pervasive even the the top tiers, but there’s more to it than karma-training, maybe. I’m in T2 now and was in T1 quite a bit while on SBI and at least in the BLs, I don’t see that much pre-battle defensive siege building by the masses. Normally it’s done either by a precious few defensive minded, dedicated people, or it’s done after the assault is already underway or a big enemy zerg has entered the map. Of course at that point you’re pretty much limited by the amount of available supply at the moment.

Sure a lot of people join the zerg for the loot and stuff, but the commanders decide what the zerg does. In my experience playing on top-tier server BLs , most commanders are focused on keeping offensive pressure on the enemy as much as possible. Few of them will ever say to their zerg, “OK guys, let’s focus on sieging up this keep for the next 15 minutes and then split up and control our supply lines for a bit.” I think the majority of them just have an offensive mindset, they want to bring as much power to their punch as they can via numbers, and they want to stick it to the enemy nearly constantly.

Even for defense, if your zerg is big enough to wipe the enemy zerg and your commander good enough, you don’t “need” pre-built defensive siege. Of course, that tactic falls flat on it’s face when your map population drops from 60 to 20 and you have no commander, no defensive siege built in your keep and little to no supply, which is something that’s inevitable on any server that doesn’t have perfect coverage.

So really, I think zerging is in the hands of the commanders in a lot of ways. It’s a tactical choice based on their goals and preferences. I have seen time and again our BL garrison fully upgraded, with 1700 supply, yaks strolling in unmolested, and not one piece of pre-built defensive siege, while two commanders are down south flipping camps and towers. It’s frustrating to me, but that’s because I’m a defensive-minded player. I think most commanders are just offensive minded.

Don’t blame the victim!

I understand the argument that is human nature to follow in a pack and you are right. That is why Zerg v Zerg will always happen even with out Anet overly rewarding it. This again is why people say can we stop overly rewarding (thus encouraging it) so that people will than make a choice between safety and quantity over quality for rewards vs Risk and the potential for greater/faster rewards. Some will pick the later of the two and thus break up zergs some what and even then the zergs you will see will commonly consist of guilds of 10-20 with the ocassional pug Zerg of 50 or so. This would also spread the combat out over a larger area of the map. Then again this has all been said over and over again with no response from Anet at all. This debate could just be over if someone came in and said “we want to split zergs up or no we like it as is”

offensive defensive the best defence is a strong offensive with scouts in your territory instantly telling you when a enemy zerg is close by

gw2 WvW is about many things first a POWERFUL ARMY!! then a strong small raid team to good defenders and many other things.

servers like vizunah square, seafarers rest,desolation,black tide have all chowed they are the best at it!

I play for SFR and I am always on the offensive but I also stick close to my territory so I can always catch an enemy zerg in our territory I don’t allow them to roam in our side without a fight.

offensive is the best defence. if you stay in a tower camping and enemy build siege then you gonna lose resources and time. instead go outside and fight them off and wipe them.

Avenge.1478:

^ What happens when groups play for PPT and not rewards? In Tier 1, rewards are an afterthought to PPT and maintaining, upgrading, and sieging our own towers. It must be radically different on smaller servers then, because in T1 it’s all about maintaining and building on the PPT.

I’m on the same server as you and I can tell you that more then a few people could give a rats butt about PPT. You as a commander my care and so do others but that is not the general rule. PPT means nothing, your servers rank means nothing, winning or losing your bracket also means nothing. So the only thing left is the battle and that’s why some of us play, it’s the battles that are fun and the larger area (compared to spvp) in the uneven fights (I don’t mean 60v5 that’s not even a fight) is why some of us play.

Wemil.7052:

offensive defensive the best defence is a strong offensive with scouts in your territory instantly telling you when a enemy zerg is close by

gw2 WvW is about many things first a POWERFUL ARMY!! then a strong small raid team to good defenders and many other things.

servers like vizunah square, seafarers rest,desolation,black tide have all chowed they are the best at it!

I play for SFR and I am always on the offensive but I also stick close to my territory so I can always catch an enemy zerg in our territory I don’t allow them to roam in our side without a fight.

offensive is the best defence. if you stay in a tower camping and enemy build siege then you gonna lose resources and time. instead go outside and fight them off and wipe them.

Sorry, but did you even read the OP’s post?

How does anything you said have to do with the topic?

The post is about whether or not ANET is responsible for zerging, or are we responsible.

That’s like building a bank vault with a screen door and asking if the robbers are responsible for robbing the vault or if the vault designers are responsible for giving it a screen door.

A design that doesn’t take human nature into account is not a very good design. You can blame the robbers/karma farmers but ultimately it’s flaws in the design that enable them.

Slamz.5376:

That’s like building a bank vault with a screen door and asking if the robbers are responsible for robbing the vault or if the vault designers are responsible for giving it a screen door.

A design that doesn’t take human nature into account is not a very good design. You can blame the robbers/karma farmers but ultimately it’s flaws in the design that enable them.

Speaking of which….why don’t doors and walls have drastically more hitpoints and armor? A keep should be more than just a speed bump, even for a zerg of 50 people!

Avenge.1478:

It’s rather unappealing reading all of these posts stating that either:

1) ANet created WvW to appeal to zergs
2) ANet needs to do something about zergs

I do not believe that ANet created WvW with zerging in mind, nor do I think they encourage it. People need to realize that the zerging of today is not developer created, but rather played created.

Put it in perspective. If you were back in high school, and you were approached by a group of 5 people that were being aggressive and hankering to fight, but you only had 1 friend with you, what would your next move be? More than likely if you are forced to fight, you’d look to even up the numbers so that you dont get slaughtered. Now apply this concept to WvW, because it is awfully similar. If you are being rushed by a group larger than yours, instinct is to either run, or gather enough forces to be able to combat the other groups numbers. This in itself develops zerging. Eventually each side will get more and more people on their side so that the odds of being run over by a potentially larger group will diminish.

Humans, as well as other animals in nature realize that there is safety in numbers, so next time you ask ANet to get rid of zerging, or blame them for the mindless zerg mentality that is WvW these days, maybe you should consider human instincts for once.

That might be true if zerging existed because it was a more effective (and safer) way to win the match, but that isn’t what’s happening. Zerging has turned into a mindless chase for points because ANet has made it more rewarding to do that than actually trying to win the match. It’s that simple, and it’s that stupid. People used to zerg to take a tower or keep, but now they zerg to get kills and typically now die more than they did before the latest patch. WvW has turned into mass zerg battles that generate more carnage, not less. In fact, the best way to stay alive now is to travel with a small group that avoids the zergs … even your own because your own zerg is mostly just looking for an enemy zerg.

So yeah, you’re wrong and so was ANet.

Avenge.1478:

3. Not once do we say “Hey we need more people over here at X supply camp to take out these Dolyaks, I really want more WXP!”

You COMPLETELY misunderstood this point; this is not about WXP, a Dolyak actually gives your server more points on the board simply by hitting a Dolyak with far more people than should be necessary. This is possibly worth twice as many points per tick as ALL of the stuctures in WvW COMBINED. That’s written right into the scoring system, and sounds like a pretty big incentive to roam in large groups: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Clarification-needed-please-Dolyak-points/first

As for the karma/wpx trains, they’ve been running in Tier 1 since 24 hour resets. 24 hour resets are when these czergs got started, and you still see massive blobs rolling around the map tagging everything, flipping easy objectives for quick points and never defending or seeking out even fights (though they will usually roll over any group they find with 1/2 their numbers or less.) It’s not some kind of sociology project the way you tried to explain it in your first post there, and these massive czergs didn’t form over time organically in order to counter similar numbers in WvW. They started as early as headstart, when people were just trying to hit level 80 ASAP, and kept going as people leveled up their alts or needed karma for gear or legendaries, and of course they’ve come back in a BIG way since WXP was added to the game, even in Tier 1. It’s nice to know that at least your 1 guild on SoR is playing to win, though you guys are kind of “perma-third” in Tier 1 anyway, but that doesn’t account for every giant czerg you see in the game, nor in Tier 1. There is still a lot of WvW farming going on, and that will continue anytime something requiring a “grind” is added to that affects the WvW portion of the game, as people don’t want to wait to get their ranks up, or get the new gear stats, or whatever.

What is the problem of doing zergs? It is called world vs world for a reason. If you want small group pvp go and play spvp it is as simple as that. It is a massive multiplayer battle for a reason. There is no problem with zerging, the problem is that they made wvw to encourage zerging but they forgot to add stable servers which can handle a lot of players. As soon as its 50v50 fight or more you get skill lagg which makes you completely useless.

Either get a good wvw guild and play with them or go to spvp, because anet isn’t going to design keeps to be taken by 3 players.

Lots of TL;DR in this thread so sorry if this has been posted. I’ll keep it as short and sweet as I can:

In their whole design manifesto for the game, Anet has said they want to remove barriers preventing players from playing together. Not splitting loot and rewards, eliminating the concept of kill-stealing, the downed system, farming nodes instanced for each player, etc. The reward system was designed from the ground up to reward players playing alongside each other. While I do not like the lack of rewards for alternate playstyles in WvW (especially small groups), the fact that zergs are more profitable is a consequence of the core game philosophy and is not likely to change.

I still don’t understand why people don’t like zergs to begin with. Do number advantages not exist in real life? Has everyone suddenly forgot that wvw is 90% numbers and coverage, 10% skill? Or is it that nobody will be content until there is a group of five in every tower and camp taking turns for watch? Split the zerg, that will be fun. Nobody will be able to get anything done on the map. Nothing will ever flip. The dynamic will never change.

As soon as you make it easy for a group of five to defeat a group 50 (via increased aoe cap or what have you) offense will become impossible. Siege already nearly makes it so, and the only thing keeping that from becoming reality is (ironically) a siege cap.

Yes skill lag sucks, and culling did suck, but everyone is dealing with it. Implementing policies to remove the zerg is only putting a band aid on the issue, not fixing it. And until you deliberately put things in place for the express purpose of countering zergs you can’t discourage it. Frankly, doing so would be discouraging teamwork and go against ANet’s manifesto. Adding wxp for every arbitrary thing you can do to help your team in wvw will be nice, but I promise you that wont stop zerging in the slightest.

This is all not to mention that after a while the skill level of a group of gamers reaches a kind of plateau. Somehow increasing that skill plateau, even if ANet was all powerful and could do something like that, would be the only legitimate way to somewhat counter zerging since skill would be a larger factor. But lets face it, wvw will never be 50% numbers and 50% skill.

I agree with you OP. ANet can reward whatever they want, it wont change human nature. And besides, which is really more appealing to the masses? Two large forces colliding in glorious battle to test their mettle against each other, and may the best man win. Or, escorting a dolyak between towers at a snails pace for a minimal team reward in comparison to a decisive victory in the field. Go ahead and reward them equally. See which one more people do. The only difference between two top ranked players who got there differently is that one had fun getting there and the other was left with an empty feeling of pride.

TL;DR? OP is correct. Zerging is here to stay. No use complaining.

Actually Blizzard made the zerg, and ArenaNet was founded by former Blizzard employees.

So yes, ArenaNet did make the zerg in a sense and anticipated that players would be zerging.

Avenge.1478:

It’s rather unappealing reading all of these posts stating that either:

1) ANet created WvW to appeal to zergs
2) ANet needs to do something about zergs

I do not believe that ANet created WvW with zerging in mind, nor do I think they encourage it. People need to realize that the zerging of today is not developer created, but rather played created.

Anet has incentivised zerging, as the prime method of reward, and removed rewards for smaller split and support play. Scouting, Yak escorts, Guard duty, zero rewards for the time invested.

So in short, yes it’s completely Anet’s fault for a kittenty reward system that incentivises kittenty zerg play by the PvX player base.

I’ll give everyone the best fix to zerg play, Friendly Fire. You’ll still get some dumb kitten trolls on a team, but zergs will be history.

Krakah.3582:

I’ll give everyone the best fix to zerg play, Friendly Fire. You’ll still get some dumb kitten trolls on a team, but zergs will be history.

Oh noes!!! But then the game would be… slightly more difficult to play!!!

Seriously though, as long as we have crazy lag going on, friendly-fire is going to be incredibly frustrating.

Krakah.3582:

I’ll give everyone the best fix to zerg play, Friendly Fire. You’ll still get some dumb kitten trolls on a team, but zergs will be history.

That would break blast finishers, would be the biggest problem I can foresee and more-so since many weapons have these things built into their regular rotation and aren’t ground targeted. Mighty Blow, for example, would become unusable because of how close-to-home it can hit by proc-ing a blast where you kick off from rather than where you end, and the animation is long such that you can hardly control if a combo field ends up getting dropped somewhere along the way..

Also melee, since all melee attacks sans daggers have cleave.

Just add a siege engine to the game that does splash damage per target and we’re done with zergs. No one would ball up under that thing’s fire because they’d each proc splash onto one another and die instantly if enough people are stacked. This solves the problems of retaliation, of breaking game mechanics, and of adding a weird split dichotomy between game modes.

Give more WXP for defense than offense, relative to the time it takes to accumulate when doing either. If WXP is more advantageous being defensive, then the game would grow incredibly boring with full maps of people sitting in keeps and upgrading. And nothing happening.

The way it is right now promote faster/stronger and offense. It’s meant this way to ensure the world is ever evolving … and not dry and boring. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoy the work put in for a good seiged hills, to turn and say ‘mwahaha, gl taking this’ … but tbh … if the game favoured defense more .. or even relative … the game would slow. We need the fast pace.

PS … love the idea of monster maps. Basically forces split strat.

The only problem with your argument is that it doesn’t matter what the psychology/sociology of it is.

In fact, zergs get rewarded more than roaming or smaller groups. Therefore, the premises you listed that you’re not even trying to argue against are correct.

That said, there’s nothing wrong with zerging. Just, everything that doesn’t involve mass zerging needs to be rewarded more so people will be motivated to do it when it makes sense. And there are many cases where it makes sense, except there’s no motivation to play smart when you can just play for loot.

Vena.8436:

That would break blast finishers, would be the biggest problem I can foresee and more-so since many weapons have these things built into their regular rotation and aren’t ground targeted. Mighty Blow, for example, would become unusable because of how close-to-home it can hit by proc-ing a blast where you kick off from rather than where you end, and the animation is long such that you can hardly control if a combo field ends up getting dropped somewhere along the way..

Combo’s can be adjusted to compensate for taking the damage, also the meta for using oppents combo fields would bring much stronger skilled play. As for Cleave and AoE, the whole point of FF is to dissuade players from blobbing, and requires more skill to play. But you know lets keep this a carebear fest where everyone gets a lolly pop for losing.

iiMulch.2138:

What is the problem of doing zergs? It is called world vs world for a reason. If you want small group pvp go and play spvp it is as simple as that. It is a massive multiplayer battle for a reason. There is no problem with zerging, the problem is that they made wvw to encourage zerging but they forgot to add stable servers which can handle a lot of players. As soon as its 50v50 fight or more you get skill lagg which makes you completely useless.

Either get a good wvw guild and play with them or go to spvp, because anet isn’t going to design keeps to be taken by 3 players.

I don’t have a fundamental problem with zergs … I agree they can be fun at times. But zergs that used to pursue map objectives now mostly just look for other zergs to fight, and that really isn’t WvW anymore. Lots of people who were pretty serious about WvW have lost a lot of interest in it since the latest patch even though the removal of culling should have reinforced it. I blame the stupid points-for-kills system for changing the emphasis of the game … just like it did in Rift (Conquest).

We need grouping systems that support multiple groups or medium sized forces. You either 5 man or pop a commander pin which forms a zerg. With no other in game options… people will always zerg.

Patiently waiting until they either allow private squads or some other grouping system to promote multiple groups/forces to coordinate on the map.

Zergs are hardly a good strategy in WvW. 100 people to cap 1 supply camp or a sentry???
If you don’t want zergs, then don’t run with them. I’ve been playing a lot of WvW and I try to avoid zergs:
- Fighting in zergs is not challenging
- Fighting in zergs causes lagg
- Fighting in zergs is very visible for enemy (as a 5-man team you can slip past enemy lines of defense)

Yes, it gives more karma, experience, Wxp, but it makes WvW stale.

edit: I agree: add 20-man party interfaces, calling those squads instead of the commander “squad” that doesn’t even show who’s with you.

How to dissuade a zerg:

Make it friendly fire (including siege). In addition if you kill an ally, one of your armor will directly have break status.

(I am joking).

ANet didn’t create the zerg… we did

Lets all blame it on evolution once again.

Even though it’s something the players do, you’re horribly mistaken if you think ANet can’t do anything to demotivate people from doing it.

But honestly i don’t really care that much anyways. Something about fighting groups much bigger than yours seems challenging and exciting to me.

time to get organized into smaller groups…
can’t see any problem with zergs… some servers like it others organize a bit different