Guild Wars 2

Honestly, anything short of returning Alpine very quickly, not waiting for months, will not stop the population decline in WvW. At least moving it back into the rotation for now will bring players back to those maps and out of Queue for EBG immediately and buy them some time to make other changes in a few months. Right now, there is a massive, active boycott of the Dbls, and the only way to end that would be to bring back alpine temporarily while creating a new map to work as a buffer to stabilize the population loss. I feel they would be setting themselves up to fail if they think adding rewards prior to returning alpine will do anything at all to the game mode. Players can already get rewards on other game modes, in other games and chose to play WvW even without the rewards, however, if they consider the game mode unplayable, as a large portion of the WvW community currently does, adding rewards will not change that. Rewards are not a population draw for WvW players, they should just be considered an incentive to do more for the players who already enjoy the game mode.

Trying to say " If we add rewards and it doesn’t solve the problem" then give up, it is just setting yourself up to fail. You should EXPECT that not to work because the reason players play WvW was not resolved in the first place. You can add all the rewards you want , but people will still not play it if they are not finding it enjoyable to do so.

To actually have this work, you have to mitigate the damages.
Like this:
Step 1) Bring back Alpine ( with no auto WP’s, no environmental or PVE nonsense, ect) and let everyone know this is only temporary while they make new maps.. ( this will immediately reduce the queues for EBG, bring back those boycotting maps, and fill up maps again allowing you some time to get things straight. This just stops the bleeding.

Step 2) Add reward system, tournaments, easier guild upgrades to use in WvW for smaller guilds since many left due to new guild upgrades that screwed over small guilds so they rage quit. Give them something back instead. Expansions, upgrades ect, should always give to players, not take away what they already had paid for and that is what players feel was done to them. Make winning matter as well, since it does not. Fix what is broken as much as you can in the meantime ( mechanics, imbalances, stabs ect)

Step 3) Make a completely new map ( different theme is IMPORTANT, not used yet, Jungle maybe? That is small, flatter, direct routes, with adding value to strategic building placement allowing for targets to be more than just points, The primary focus of the maps needs to keep players engaged in fun challenging PvP the majority of the time they are on the map) Ad this map to the rotation, but keep alpine as well. It is important that this map have nothing at all to do with the DBL since this will buy time for people to get over their hatred of it. ( works as a buffer).

Step 4) Fix the DBL. Make smaller DBL with direct routes, flatter, strategic value building and siege placement, drop the environmental PVE nonsense then you can add it into the rotation, Having the jungle and alpine buffer will allow people time to get over their DBL hate to even reconsider it after it is repaired and returned. Returning tit sooner will not have the desired results without a buffer in between. You want players to have a good feeling about the map, and currently it has too much negativity attached for them to even consider it.

Step 5) Work on population imbalance issues, and actually improving WvW with community involvement using poll and survey data from actual wvw players ect..

If you just Add rewards without solving the other issues or providing a buffer with the map issue, you are just setting yourself up to fail because players have a bad taste in the mouth already, you don’t fix that by just pouring sugar on spoiled food trying to cover up the taste, you have to bring them a new plate first before adding sugar as an option. :P

Population will not be resolved by adding rewards, since wvw players do not play the game mode for rewards in the first place, they play it for challenging, strategic, large scale PvP combat. If it isn’t fun for them, if they actively are boycotting it, anything short of giving them what they asked for will just insult them further, not bring them back. Adding rewards before making it enjoyable for them will just make them leave faster.

EDIT: ALSO rewards should be used strategically as well, you should get rewards for defending towers, keeps and other objectives to give players an actual reason to defend them. The rewards should be used to make players want to do more in WvW, not just get them in the door. You get players in the door by making the game mode fun, strategic and challenging nonstop pvp action for the players while they are there.

Desert bl can go to hell for all I care, that and all the other garbage they added with hot ruined wvw and destroyed my desire for it. I only do wvw now because I want to play with my guild, there is little personal desire like before where I would want to jump in anytime I was online. I cannot contain my disgust for anet and what they did.

I don’t like the idea of a flat map, flat areas definitely but not the entire map, there needs to be some kind of diversity. The problem is the desert bl went to an extreme with that idea with the verticality bs, it feels like I’m going through a maze plus jumping puzzle. The alpine bl had some flaws with the layout but it was better designed for more strategic and key word FUN fights, the desert bl is not.

-Bring Back Alpine Map

-Get rid of Oasis event, the lag has gotten worse since you “fixed” it

-Revert Change to waypoints, they should be built not automatic

-The gimmicky garbage they added needs to be removed or heavily nerfed

-Nerf siege use against players, enough of the kitten siege wars and siegehumping cancer

-Create a wvw reward track, not progressable in eotm

-Change scoring system to award points on cap (PPC) based on upgrade tier of objective taken. Make PPT reflect the tiers of objectives, paper t1 keeps should not give the same PPC and PPT as an upgraded t3 keep.

For Example: Capping or Holding a keep would score like this
t1 keep-10points
t2 keep-15points
t3 keep-25points

1) The problem is, because we do not know how gw2 is programmed, it might be difficult to bring back the old maps without causing any major bugs. The dev team also less incline to do so as they are focusing on the so-called WvW overhaul. Though I know a couple of people not wanting to go that map because of low FPS.

3) Making yet another brand new map means need more resources which again the dev team might not have that much resources to do so. If they did, it wouldn’t take them so long to develop and wvw full changes would otherwise be included in the expansion. I rather them focus on features changes as priority.

regardless, anet focus is now on that so-called wvw overhaul which i assume will be within 6 months? however, within that 6 months, many games are coming out and likely gw2 will lose more players to those games.

X T D.6458:

Desert bl can go to hell for all I care, that and all the other garbage they added with hot ruined wvw and destroyed my desire for it. I only do wvw now because I want to play with my guild, there is little personal desire like before where I would want to jump in anytime I was online. I cannot contain my disgust for anet and what they did.

I don’t like the idea of a flat map, flat areas definitely but not the entire map, there needs to be some kind of diversity. The problem is the desert bl went to an extreme with that idea with the verticality bs, it feels like I’m going through a maze plus jumping puzzle. The alpine bl had some flaws with the layout but it was better designed for more strategic and key word FUN fights, the desert bl is not.

-Bring Back Alpine Map

-Get rid of Oasis event, the lag has gotten worse since you “fixed” it

-Revert Change to waypoints, they should be built not automatic

-The gimmicky garbage they added needs to be removed or heavily nerfed

-Nerf siege use against players, enough of the kitten siege wars and siegehumping cancer

-Create a wvw reward track, not progressable in eotm

-Change scoring system to award points on cap (PPC) based on upgrade tier of objective taken. Make PPT reflect the tiers of objectives, paper t1 keeps should not give the same PPC and PPT as an upgraded t3 keep.

For Example: Capping or Holding a keep would score like this
t1 keep-10points
t2 keep-15points
t3 keep-25points

I agree the map does not need to be " flat" , flatter than the DBL, but not entirely" flat". I think you misunderstood. They need to understand clearly, however, that it is not adding fun to the game to make people fall off ledges then have to run a mile back to the fight only to get there just in time to miss the fight. That is just adding reasons not to play the map, rather than adding to the enjoyment. It is part of what keep players out of PvP action, rather than in it. The goal of a WvW map should be to keep players in the PvP action the majority of the time they are on the map, if it fails to do that, it fails to be a good map for a PvP game mode.

If a player only has a couple of hours to play WvW when they come home from work, they want to spend that time they have in the PvP action, not spend the entire time running around trying to get to it.
They need to make these changes, they need to make sure they do them in the right order to save the game mode. It does them no good to try to pour sugar ( rewards) on a rotten plate of food and wonder why no one will eat it.

SkyShroud.2865:

1) The problem is, because we do not know how gw2 is programmed, it might be difficult to bring back the old maps without causing any major bugs. The dev team also less incline to do so as they are focusing on the so-called WvW overhaul. Though I know a couple of people not wanting to go that map because of low FPS.

3) Making yet another brand new map means need more resources which again the dev team might not have that much resources to do so. If they did, it wouldn’t take them so long to develop and wvw full changes would otherwise be included in the expansion. I rather them focus on features changes as priority.

regardless, anet focus is now on that so-called wvw overhaul which i assume will be within 6 months? however, within that 6 months, many games are coming out and likely gw2 will lose more players to those games.

1) There is no programming issue bringing Alpine back, they just have their agenda out of order that it will fail rather than have the results they are looking for.

2) They are already working on another map.

3)No, I am not going to tell you how I know this.

They need to get it right this time, and by bringing alpine back first and now, it will go much smoother.

lil devils x.6071:

2) They are already working on another map.

Imagine how bad that’s going to be.

lil devils x.6071:

SkyShroud.2865:

1) The problem is, because we do not know how gw2 is programmed, it might be difficult to bring back the old maps without causing any major bugs. The dev team also less incline to do so as they are focusing on the so-called WvW overhaul. Though I know a couple of people not wanting to go that map because of low FPS.

3) Making yet another brand new map means need more resources which again the dev team might not have that much resources to do so. If they did, it wouldn’t take them so long to develop and wvw full changes would otherwise be included in the expansion. I rather them focus on features changes as priority.

regardless, anet focus is now on that so-called wvw overhaul which i assume will be within 6 months? however, within that 6 months, many games are coming out and likely gw2 will lose more players to those games.

1) There is no programming issue bringing Alpine back, they just have their agenda out of order that it will fail rather than have the results they are looking for.

2) They are already working on another map.

3)No, I am not going to tell you how I know this.

They need to get it right this time, and by bringing alpine back first and now, it will go much smoother.

if u unable to say how u know this then there is no credibility in it

One of the main issues is they said there would be a map rotation when HoT came out. I honestly expected the rotation fairly soon and it’s been a while now. The new map isn’t perfect but I still think a rotation of maps would just turn this current map into the skyhammer of pvp. It would add value for diversity even if it wasn’t everyones favorite map.

I don’t see the terrain of the new map as an issue. I like that there are new nooks and crannies I can use to my advantage in a fight. I’ve mentioned before the Fire Keep needs an overhaul, as it’s the only keep with only 1 way in. Also, the Oasis should be consumed by Cthulu and never seen again.

I think the biggest issue with WvW is class balance. The big zergs used to have front, mid, and back lines based on classes…and ALL classes brought something to the table. Now it’s just a front and back line and half the classes are actively discouraged because they bring nothing that can help (namely aoe fields). It does suck to be fighting on narrow terrain and have an army comprised soley of necromancers, dragonhunters, and rangers decimate a much larger, more diverse group simply because they have access to unblockable fear and knockback. That said, it’s a class balance issue, and well… it’s not only WvW that’s suffering from that.

While I’d like to hope Anet can fix all the damage HoT has done, I do admit I’m one of those players who used to mainly do WvW…switched to PvP for awhile since WvW became a ghost land, and now am looking for another game to replace GW2. I stopped playing PvE because it was so buggy I couldn’t complete the story. Which is sad because up until I discovered Mordropurgatory I was interested in the story.

Anyway, in the short term, I hope they bring back the alpine map to A borderland, if for no other reason than as a show of goodwill to their rather upset player base. I think that’d at least tide people over until they release this “overhaul” they are working on. Otherwise, I’m fairly certain that their player base will begin a mass exodus to other games.

Link.1049:

I don’t see the terrain of the new map as an issue. I like that there are new nooks and crannies I can use to my advantage in a fight. I’ve mentioned before the Fire Keep needs an overhaul, as it’s the only keep with only 1 way in. Also, the Oasis should be consumed by Cthulu and never seen again.

I think the biggest issue with WvW is class balance. The big zergs used to have front, mid, and back lines based on classes…and ALL classes brought something to the table. Now it’s just a front and back line and half the classes are actively discouraged because they bring nothing that can help (namely aoe fields). It does suck to be fighting on narrow terrain and have an army comprised soley of necromancers, dragonhunters, and rangers decimate a much larger, more diverse group simply because they have access to unblockable fear and knockback. That said, it’s a class balance issue, and well… it’s not only WvW that’s suffering from that.

While I’d like to hope Anet can fix all the damage HoT has done, I do admit I’m one of those players who used to mainly do WvW…switched to PvP for awhile since WvW became a ghost land, and now am looking for another game to replace GW2. I stopped playing PvE because it was so buggy I couldn’t complete the story. Which is sad because up until I discovered Mordropurgatory I was interested in the story.

Anyway, in the short term, I hope they bring back the alpine map to A borderland, if for no other reason than as a show of goodwill to their rather upset player base. I think that’d at least tide people over until they release this “overhaul” they are working on. Otherwise, I’m fairly certain that their player base will begin a mass exodus to other games.

The terrain of the new map is a huge part of the problem because it is part of what keeps people running around doing nothing during in their time to play rather than spending it in fun, challenging strategic PvP action. If you are running around to get back up to where you just fell off, you are not in the action. That does not add to the fun of playing the map, it takes away from it. The goal of a PvP map should be to have players engaged in PvP the majority of the time they are on it, not trying to get back to the action instead.

I am afraid, however, every day they wait to put Alpine back in, the less people will return when they do. Guilds are leaving the game for good, with no plans to return due to this.

If they just add rewards before returning Alpine, those boycotting will still not return, so it will not have the intended effect. The mass exodus has already been going on for a while now..

SkyShroud.2865:

lil devils x.6071:

SkyShroud.2865:

1) The problem is, because we do not know how gw2 is programmed, it might be difficult to bring back the old maps without causing any major bugs. The dev team also less incline to do so as they are focusing on the so-called WvW overhaul. Though I know a couple of people not wanting to go that map because of low FPS.

3) Making yet another brand new map means need more resources which again the dev team might not have that much resources to do so. If they did, it wouldn’t take them so long to develop and wvw full changes would otherwise be included in the expansion. I rather them focus on features changes as priority.

regardless, anet focus is now on that so-called wvw overhaul which i assume will be within 6 months? however, within that 6 months, many games are coming out and likely gw2 will lose more players to those games.

1) There is no programming issue bringing Alpine back, they just have their agenda out of order that it will fail rather than have the results they are looking for.

2) They are already working on another map.

3)No, I am not going to tell you how I know this.

They need to get it right this time, and by bringing alpine back first and now, it will go much smoother.

if u unable to say how u know this then there is no credibility in it

Nice try. " Need to know" basis and you don’t need to know .

Those that need to know, do.

What " needs to be known" here is Anet thinking adding rewards will create enough of a population increase to solve their problems without ending the boycott and solving the other issues is a bad idea and not to go to the " give up mode" end game of killing WvW with the EoTM alliance system.

They need to understand that unless they end the boycott and help some of the other severe issues adding rewards will not work out as they want it to and they will kill the game mode entirely if they resort to the end game plan instead without doing this right.

lil devils x.6071:

2) They are already working on another map.

3)No, I am not going to tell you how I know this.

NDA survey?

Erm, where is this reward scheme thing coming from? I haven’t heard anything. Might be I missed something over the weekend.

This “I know things that I can’t tell you” sounds like a one way street to be not taken seriously ever. Either youre fooling the playerbase or you’re fooling ArenaNet. Which means you can’t be trusted either way.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Erm, where is this reward scheme thing coming from? I haven’t heard anything. Might be I missed something over the weekend.

This “I know things that I can’t tell you” sounds like a one way street to be not taken seriously ever. Either youre fooling the playerbase or you’re fooling ArenaNet. Which means you can’t be trusted either way.

LOL! You can’t " fool " Anet when it comes from their employees. Wishing to discuss what they are working on with them without going into who was talking about it and not wanting to go to the FB page does not have anything to do with " Trust" I wish to discuss this specific detail or a larger conversation and it is irrelevant to what needs to be addressed who was involved with discussing what actually needs to be addressed here.

I don’t want to get into he said/ she said BS calling people out as that defeats the purpose of what is important here . I want to make sure they understand very clearly that moving inn this direction will not have the desired effect due to how they are choosing to go about it. If they just do things in different order and change a few priorities, it will have much different results and they won’t need to give up on the game mode with the stupid EoTM alliance system that needs to be taken off the table all together.
Instead, they need to change how they are going about it so that it can actually work rather than set themselves up to fail.

This needs to be worked on/ changed now.. I have better things to do than try to “fool” people and it would be idiotic to waste time doing such things. I just want them to understand what will happen if they get the order of these things wrong and waste more time.
I could care less if you " trust" me, I am not posting here for your entertainment, I am hoping they will read it. They know what is up and I am hoping they understand what will happen if they choose to put all their eggs in the " rewards" basket. They need to understand that if you pour sugar on rotten food people are still not going to eat it.. They have to fix the most serious problems before adding rewards and not think rewards are a hail Mary and all is lost if they do not have the desired results.

WvW players for the most part spend $$ and play for the fun and challenge, not rewards. Rewards are nice bonus AFTER they make it playable again, but will not solve the problem.

I don’t want them saying " we are going to add rewards and if that doesn’t work, kitten it, go EoTM alliance because nothing will work" instead of actually trying.

They are trying the same tactics that work for PvE players and they have to get out of that mind set, WvW players and PvE players play the game for different reasons, and cannot be treated the same way. Adding rewards may attract PvE players, but that is not going to work on WvW Players the same way. For WvW players, you have to have challenging, fun strategic PvP or you will still fail. They have to fix the problems then add the cherry on top. If you just add the cherry and the rest of it is still bad, they are just going to tell you where you can stick that cherry instead…

This " reward scheme " people are talking about is coming from the people working on it..

We were one of the largest 100% active T1 WvW guilds in the game prior to HoT, now no one even wants to play due to what they did to it. Another long time T1 Guild just announced that they were leaving Gw2 as well, trying to get them to stop breaking the game so players can enjoy it is the objective here.

Everything GW2 comes from ArenaNet Employees. I mostly was wondering where this news comes from because then there would be a source to read which is just better than some random guy on the forum talking about stuff no one really knows about.

If you want a discussion then everyone in said discussion needs to be on the same level. Its pointless discuss on a speculation, based on a rumour which may or may not come from an ArenaNet employee. If it’s even true to begin with.

And no I don’t trust random facts from a random forum goer.

FrizzFreston.5290:

Everything GW2 comes from ArenaNet Employees. I mostly was wondering where this news comes from because then there would be a source to read which is just better than some random guy on the forum talking about stuff no one really knows about.

If you want a discussion then everyone in said discussion needs to be on the same level. Its pointless discuss on a speculation, based on a rumour which may or may not come from an ArenaNet employee. If it’s even true to begin with.

And no I don’t trust random facts from a random forum goer.

" random forum goers" Who are leaders of GW2 Largest T1 WvW guilds.. Yes, it is coming from those working on it is why people ( not just me ) are discussing it. Not official announcements but people actually do talk to others without it being an “announcement”. The point is not to talk about who is discussing what, it is to address the actual issues they are working on. If your input is not about what they are actually working on, and you are not one of the people that knows what is going on, sorry it is not my job to make official announcements, and keep you informed, they can do that when they feel like it, I just want to make sure they understand what that means for the game if they stay the course in that direction.

If you are just annoyed you don’t know what is up, sorry I cannot help you with that, I am sure they will say something sooner or later. My purpose here is not to go on about things that are not going to help the state of WvW, I have many friends and family who play this with me . My guildies enjoyed playing this game before they went this direction and I owe it to them to at least try to make Anet change their minds b4 they make a bigger mess of it.

So, you have a big ego. I don’t care. And I’m not upset. if you can’t tell coz you or friends that are under an NDA like a poster said, then yea.. good luck before Anet throws you out.

lil devils x.6071:

FrizzFreston.5290:

Everything GW2 comes from ArenaNet Employees. I mostly was wondering where this news comes from because then there would be a source to read which is just better than some random guy on the forum talking about stuff no one really knows about.

If you want a discussion then everyone in said discussion needs to be on the same level. Its pointless discuss on a speculation, based on a rumour which may or may not come from an ArenaNet employee. If it’s even true to begin with.

And no I don’t trust random facts from a random forum goer.

" random forum goers" Who are leaders of GW2 Largest T1 WvW guilds.. Yes, it is coming from those working on it is why people ( not just me ) are discussing it. Not official announcements but people actually do talk to others without it being an “announcement”. The point is not to talk about who is discussing what, it is to address the actual issues they are working on. If your input is not about what they are actually working on, and you are not one of the people that knows what is going on, sorry it is not my job to make official announcements, and keep you informed, they can do that when they feel like it, I just want to make sure they understand what that means for the game if they stay the course in that direction.

If you are just annoyed you don’t know what is up, sorry I cannot help you with that, I am sure they will say something sooner or later. My purpose here is not to go on about things that are not going to help the state of WvW, I have many friends and family who play this with me . My guildies enjoyed playing this game before they went this direction and I owe it to them to at least try to make Anet change their minds b4 they make a bigger mess of it.

Why would anyone care about what a T1 guild leader said? The ego oozing out of T1 is one of the reasons I stayed on my server. The fact that Anet still cater to this group of people is sickening.

On topic I don’t need better rewards for WvW, my reward is killin folk.

NO. No more “Alpine was amazing” lies! It wasn’t amazing. It was, frankly, boring.

I implore Arenanet devs to ignore these miserable few forum warriors.

Meh, all this talk about introducing a map rotation doesnt fill me with excitement either, tbh. Yeah, I sure want Alpine back just as much as everybody else, but if you have a rotation, of lets say… 1 week alpine, 1 week desert.. that’s still every other week where people just won’t touch WvW. It won’t be solving anything at all.

The SINGLE best and most intelligent move that anet could possibly make, that will both show us they’re actually listening to us for once and that they understand what a massive source of the problem is right now, is to completely scrap the current itteration of DBL, give us back Alpine (hopefully been improved upon but I’ll still be more than happy if it’s the exact same) and leave us with Alpine to actually get some players back and having fun in WvW again whilst they make SERIOUS adjustments to DBL, and carry on with the new map that I imagine they ARe probably making right now (or at least brainstorming).

As much as I dislike people saying “I know but I can’t tell you because I’m important and you’re not as important because blablabla” I wouldn’t be AT ALL surprised if Anet were working on a new map right now. If that’s true, I’m pretty angry, because that means they have their priorities totally wrong. They should be hotfixing/removing DBL from the equation altogether right now, not forcing us to endure it for another 6 months – a year whilst they make ANOTHER map that they probably won’t pull off either.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

lil devils x.6071:

FrizzFreston.5290:

Everything GW2 comes from ArenaNet Employees. I mostly was wondering where this news comes from because then there would be a source to read which is just better than some random guy on the forum talking about stuff no one really knows about.

If you want a discussion then everyone in said discussion needs to be on the same level. Its pointless discuss on a speculation, based on a rumour which may or may not come from an ArenaNet employee. If it’s even true to begin with.

And no I don’t trust random facts from a random forum goer.

" random forum goers" Who are leaders of GW2 Largest T1 WvW guilds.. Yes, it is coming from those working on it is why people ( not just me ) are discussing it. Not official announcements but people actually do talk to others without it being an “announcement”. The point is not to talk about who is discussing what, it is to address the actual issues they are working on. If your input is not about what they are actually working on, and you are not one of the people that knows what is going on, sorry it is not my job to make official announcements, and keep you informed, they can do that when they feel like it, I just want to make sure they understand what that means for the game if they stay the course in that direction.

If you are just annoyed you don’t know what is up, sorry I cannot help you with that, I am sure they will say something sooner or later. My purpose here is not to go on about things that are not going to help the state of WvW, I have many friends and family who play this with me . My guildies enjoyed playing this game before they went this direction and I owe it to them to at least try to make Anet change their minds b4 they make a bigger mess of it.

Why would anyone care about what a T1 guild leader said? The ego oozing out of T1 is one of the reasons I stayed on my server. The fact that Anet still cater to this group of people is sickening.

On topic I don’t need better rewards for WvW, my reward is killin folk.

It has nothing to do with " T1", it is across all servers. On all servers, all tiers, EBG kills are more than all DBLs combined. (BTW T1 players have ALREADY played all tiers, so by dealing with T1 players, you are talking to experienced WvW players from all tiers… )

http://coveragewars2.com/death.php

I am not telling them this, their numbers are telling them this. They are just now consulting with players this time instead of just moving forward blindly after their numbers for WvW plummeted. Why they should care about what happens in T1 is because the game is bleeding out the top. Most players in T1 played all their tiers before arriving there. They have not been catering to the WvW population at all is the problem and why the majority of the WvW population has ceased to play at all since HoT. They were originally going to replace EBG, but changed that plan since the game mode population crashed after HoT released due to Anet not understanding what the majority of WvW players want in the game. The plan as I understand it now was to implement rewards and a new map, and if that causes a stable population increase then bring back Alpine after that and if adding rewards doesn’t work they go with plan B and implement an EoTm alliance system " end game " scenario and call it a day..

I am trying to tell them instead of doing that, they need to bring Alpine back now while they are working on all that, ending the DBL boycott stopping the immediate population loss due to that, resolve the issues that ran off a large amount of the population prior to implementing the rewards, then implement the rewards and make sure the new map they are working on has nothing to do with desert or snow to serve as a buffer so players actually listen long enough to come back.

IF it is just a new desert map, rather than a different theme, players will not even listen long enough to understand it is a new map and think they " already tried the awful DBL" and stop reading/ listening at that point due to the negativity that goes with it. They need to get players back in the door first before bringing back the repaired DBL due to the current DBL hate being so bad.

FrizzFreston.5290:

So, you have a big ego. I don’t care. And I’m not upset. if you can’t tell coz you or friends that are under an NDA like a poster said, then yea.. good luck before Anet throws you out.

It isn’t about EGO.. Being a large guild leader means I have obligations to the people I play this game with, and that happens to be MANY real family and friends. I am not under a NDA for this particular information, I just don’t throw people under the bus, and No ANet is not throwing me out. LOL

What matters here isn’t who told us, it is up to them who they choose to talk to and when they choose to make announcements, What IS important is the thought they put into the course of direction they are taking now and trying to help them think about the ramifications of the actions they choose to take this time so they can achieve the desired results. They HAVE changed course now and are trying to make this better. They need to understand how to make it better though. The order they do these things is important.

TheDarkSoul.1938:

Meh, all this talk about introducing a map rotation doesnt fill me with excitement either, tbh. Yeah, I sure want Alpine back just as much as everybody else, but if you have a rotation, of lets say… 1 week alpine, 1 week desert.. that’s still every other week where people just won’t touch WvW. It won’t be solving anything at all.

The SINGLE best and most intelligent move that anet could possibly make, that will both show us they’re actually listening to us for once and that they understand what a massive source of the problem is right now, is to completely scrap the current itteration of DBL, give us back Alpine (hopefully been improved upon but I’ll still be more than happy if it’s the exact same) and leave us with Alpine to actually get some players back and having fun in WvW again whilst they make SERIOUS adjustments to DBL, and carry on with the new map that I imagine they ARe probably making right now (or at least brainstorming).

As much as I dislike people saying “I know but I can’t tell you because I’m important and you’re not as important because blablabla” I wouldn’t be AT ALL surprised if Anet were working on a new map right now. If that’s true, I’m pretty angry, because that means they have their priorities totally wrong. They should be hotfixing/removing DBL from the equation altogether right now, not forcing us to endure it for another 6 months – a year whilst they make ANOTHER map that they probably won’t pull off either.

I fully agree. Map rotation at this point just shows how bad the DBL hate is.. which is really really bad ( worse than they probably even realize) and makes those who designed it look even worse than they do now.. Instead, they need to rotate BACK to Alpine immediately, and stay there while they work on everything else. They need to make sure the map they are currently working on is not a desert or snow theme so people do not rage thinking about it being a replacement for Alpine or relate it to DBL hate.

The new map they introduce into the rotation needs to solve the problems rather than add to them, and be received positively. If it is well received, then they can reintroduce a smaller, repaired new version of DBL down the road once everyone has had a chance to come try to other new map rotation a bit and will see it as a new map and actually give it a chance to see it for what it is instead of relate it to the bad DBL map we have now thinking they already tried it.

Rewards should not be a priority until after they have Alpine back, removed the airship and other PVE nonsense, and removed auto WP ect. AND most importantly, they certainly should not be what they think is going to greatly increase WvW population because it will not have that effect, instead rewards should just be an incentive for the existing WvW population to do more. The incentive to increase WvW population should be improving the game mode itself by listening to what the players actually want.

They ran off many roamers, small guilds, defenders, and zerg fighters with these recent changes, not just one group. They have to correct that first and foremost before moving forward. They would be better off sending surveys and polls to their WvW players before deciding what direction they are going to take. They should do that instead of do things like " Give them rewards and if that doesn’t work , kitten it EoTm alliance it and be done with it." They are still trying to treat it like PvE and The players do not play WvW for the same reason PvE players do so it wont work as they think it will. PvE players will dungeon raid all day for shiny rewards, WvW players do not work that way.

(Edit: No one is more or less important because of when/ how they received information, that is just silly. Who said what is irrelevant to what needs to be addressed in this case and just distracts to the actual topic. What else is one to do if they want to discuss the actual issue but not talk about someone behind their back in the process? I feel this is an issue that is important enough it needs to be addressed, the alternative is to not talk about it at all, leaving it to only go undiscussed and stay on course without anyone telling them otherwise? People who want to discuss the actual issue can, those who don’t want to believe it do not have to post in threads they do not have any actual content to provide.)

lil devils x.6071:

FrizzFreston.5290:

So, you have a big ego. I don’t care. And I’m not upset. if you can’t tell coz you or friends that are under an NDA like a poster said, then yea.. good luck before Anet throws you out.

It isn’t about EGO.. Being a large guild leader means I have obligations to the people I play this game with, and that happens to be MANY real family and friends. I am not under a NDA for this particular information, I just don’t throw people under the bus, and No ANet is not throwing me out. LOL

What matters here isn’t who told us, it is up to them who they choose to talk to and when they choose to make announcements, What IS important is the thought they put into the course of direction they are taking now and trying to help them think about the ramifications of the actions they choose to take this time so they can achieve the desired results. They HAVE changed course now and are trying to make this better. They need to understand how to make it better though. The order they do these things is important.

Hence I said, IF. Plus they have thrown whole guilds out of testing once they saw the guild in question didn’t mix well with their intentions. That’s mostly what I was hinting at. I don’t think you’re that special at all. No matter what you think of yourself or whether you feel you represent x amount of people.

Plus it’s always important to know what is the source. Because from what I can tell, you’re not very good at discerning what is fact and what is not. Are you’re saying they told their complete plans, are these set in stone, are these things you say half speculated? Who knows.

It’s very easy to spin a rumour even if you didn’t intend to. So yeah it’s important what is told by who. This is why most companies have an PR department that try their best to convey the right message that the company wants to convey.

You can act it doesn’t matter. But it does. I think it would be a much more constructive discussion if ArenaNet comes out and tells their plans in their version. Rather than some second hand version muddled with opinions.

I see some of y’all posting here all the time asking to bringe alpine back. We get it. You don’t like the new map. But the reality is people just want to play. In Blackgate, sure, you get a few complainers, but people go out there and play. Yeah, we don’t like the Oasis event, and the lag it creates, but we just want to play. We can still get fights, ppt, or whatever on the new maps.

For me, and others I know for a fact that includes whole guilds, the game breaking issue is the class balance, power creep, and stability issues, gimmick like banners, airship drop, and cloaking waters. These things make the game not fun On the desert bl, you still find fights, but when you get into a fight, you can get one shot (depending on the class), stunned to death, pirate ship, yadda, yadda, yadda. Pick your poison.

The arena is not as much of an issue as the mechanics to fighting in the arena.

lil devils x.6071:

I agree the map does not need to be " flat" , flatter than the DBL, but not entirely" flat". I think you misunderstood. They need to understand clearly, however, that it is not adding fun to the game to make people fall off ledges then have to run a mile back to the fight only to get there just in time to miss the fight. That is just adding reasons not to play the map, rather than adding to the enjoyment. It is part of what keep players out of PvP action, rather than in it. The goal of a WvW map should be to keep players in the PvP action the majority of the time they are on the map, if it fails to do that, it fails to be a good map for a PvP game mode.

If a player only has a couple of hours to play WvW when they come home from work, they want to spend that time they have in the PvP action, not spend the entire time running around trying to get to it.
They need to make these changes, they need to make sure they do them in the right order to save the game mode. It does them no good to try to pour sugar ( rewards) on a rotten plate of food and wonder why no one will eat it.

Exactly this…. One path that really frustrates me in DBL is going from the Southeastern-most camp to the shrine directly south of air keep. They look fairly close together on the map, and if you stand on the cliff by the camp you can see the shrine. Should be fairly easy to get to this shrine right? [insert “WRONNNGGGGG” gif here] . The path is unnecessarily long and confusing and is reminiscent of the 3D complexity you experience in games like Dark Souls. While a spectacle to behold, I absolutely despise having to put up with this for wvw. This is not what wvw is about. Having 3D complexity and “pve-like” events is great, but taking 5 minutes (and often times getting lost) to travel between two of the closest points on the map is unacceptable.

@lil devils x.6071
reading your posts in this thread and your posts in your post history
your credibility is very questionable

you are trying so hard to give people this impression that you are somebody

just because you are a “large” guild leader in T1, it doesn’t mean much in your credibility. in fact, creating a large guild in a large server is very easy. looking at your tags, none of those guilds have a strict rep requirement either. nothing impressive, really.

the ways you trying so hard to justify each different statements are also not convincing.

lastly, if you indeed part of the “selected” participants or have connections to those people, why do you create such thread or even need to reply to me when it will just make you lose more credibility?

SkyShroud.2865:

@lil devils x.6071
reading your posts in this thread and your posts in your post history
your credibility is very questionable

you are trying so hard to give people this impression that you are somebody

just because you are a “large” guild leader in T1, it doesn’t mean much in your credibility. in fact, creating a large guild in a large server is very easy. looking at your tags, none of those guilds have a strict rep requirement either. nothing impressive, really.

the ways you trying so hard to justify each different statements are also not convincing.

lastly, if you indeed part of the “selected” participants or have connections to those people, why do you create such thread or even need to reply to me when it will just make you lose more credibility?

Okay, good. Have a good day. If you have nothing to contribute to the actual issue, and are obsessed over who said what I am not going to discuss people behind their backs so don’t believe it and move on. I will continue to discuss this with the people who do know what was said and you can continue to make unfounded accusations about my credibility. If that is your contribution to the thread, I believe you stated quite clearly you dont believe me, so there is no point in further discussing this with you.

Arcaedus.7290:

lil devils x.6071:

I agree the map does not need to be " flat" , flatter than the DBL, but not entirely" flat". I think you misunderstood. They need to understand clearly, however, that it is not adding fun to the game to make people fall off ledges then have to run a mile back to the fight only to get there just in time to miss the fight. That is just adding reasons not to play the map, rather than adding to the enjoyment. It is part of what keep players out of PvP action, rather than in it. The goal of a WvW map should be to keep players in the PvP action the majority of the time they are on the map, if it fails to do that, it fails to be a good map for a PvP game mode.

If a player only has a couple of hours to play WvW when they come home from work, they want to spend that time they have in the PvP action, not spend the entire time running around trying to get to it.
They need to make these changes, they need to make sure they do them in the right order to save the game mode. It does them no good to try to pour sugar ( rewards) on a rotten plate of food and wonder why no one will eat it.

Exactly this…. One path that really frustrates me in DBL is going from the Southeastern-most camp to the shrine directly south of air keep. They look fairly close together on the map, and if you stand on the cliff by the camp you can see the shrine. Should be fairly easy to get to this shrine right? [insert “WRONNNGGGGG” gif here] . The path is unnecessarily long and confusing and is reminiscent of the 3D complexity you experience in games like Dark Souls. While a spectacle to behold, I absolutely despise having to put up with this for wvw. This is not what wvw is about. Having 3D complexity and “pve-like” events is great, but taking 5 minutes (and often times getting lost) to travel between two of the closest points on the map is unacceptable.

Yes it just makes players waste their time running around and not actually feel like they have been able to play the game when they add this nonsense to the battlefield. PvE players may enjoy the added the scenic routes, but that does not apply to WvW.

lil devils x.6071:

Arcaedus.7290:

lil devils x.6071:

I agree the map does not need to be " flat" , flatter than the DBL, but not entirely" flat". I think you misunderstood. They need to understand clearly, however, that it is not adding fun to the game to make people fall off ledges then have to run a mile back to the fight only to get there just in time to miss the fight. That is just adding reasons not to play the map, rather than adding to the enjoyment. It is part of what keep players out of PvP action, rather than in it. The goal of a WvW map should be to keep players in the PvP action the majority of the time they are on the map, if it fails to do that, it fails to be a good map for a PvP game mode.

If a player only has a couple of hours to play WvW when they come home from work, they want to spend that time they have in the PvP action, not spend the entire time running around trying to get to it.
They need to make these changes, they need to make sure they do them in the right order to save the game mode. It does them no good to try to pour sugar ( rewards) on a rotten plate of food and wonder why no one will eat it.

Exactly this…. One path that really frustrates me in DBL is going from the Southeastern-most camp to the shrine directly south of air keep. They look fairly close together on the map, and if you stand on the cliff by the camp you can see the shrine. Should be fairly easy to get to this shrine right? [insert “WRONNNGGGGG” gif here] . The path is unnecessarily long and confusing and is reminiscent of the 3D complexity you experience in games like Dark Souls. While a spectacle to behold, I absolutely despise having to put up with this for wvw. This is not what wvw is about. Having 3D complexity and “pve-like” events is great, but taking 5 minutes (and often times getting lost) to travel between two of the closest points on the map is unacceptable.

Yes it just makes players waste their time running around and not actually feel like they have been able to play the game when they add this nonsense to the battlefield. PvE players may enjoy the added the scenic routes, but that does not apply to WvW.

As someone who enjoys both pve and WvW, I think they did a fine job with the fire-keep/western side of the map. It does have a tad too many environmental barriers that aren’t conducive to fights, but it’s not unnecessarily winding, or confusing to navigate.

Speaking on map design, It’s possible to have the scenic views, but still have an area be conducive to fights (I think the area north of the fire keep does a good job of this). Additionally, larger-more open routes should be very apparent and obvious for groups wishing to navigate from point A to B…. unlike the air keep/eastern side of the map.

To be on topic for once.

The layout of the map really shouldn’t be a problem. I mean I understand it is a casual game with some casual RvR going on, but no matter how many obstacles or non obstacles there are, a fight can happen anywhere at any time. Whether the layout of the land is complicated or super simple, if you have any serious bone for WvW then you should be able to fight on any terrain.

More complicated terrain just means it’s harder to strategize, and the big majority of wvw is zerg versus zerg because it takes too much organisation to make up a valid strategy or players are simply not good enough in PvP to be able to hit a pack of butter without being amongst 30 other people hitting the same pack of butter.

The newer, erm, tools, however, while they should be equal to both sides, do favour defending by alot. And while certain advantages are great, when something is buffed u to the max + all these extra effects you stand very little chance.

lil devils x.6071:

SkyShroud.2865:

@lil devils x.6071
reading your posts in this thread and your posts in your post history
your credibility is very questionable

you are trying so hard to give people this impression that you are somebody

just because you are a “large” guild leader in T1, it doesn’t mean much in your credibility. in fact, creating a large guild in a large server is very easy. looking at your tags, none of those guilds have a strict rep requirement either. nothing impressive, really.

the ways you trying so hard to justify each different statements are also not convincing.

lastly, if you indeed part of the “selected” participants or have connections to those people, why do you create such thread or even need to reply to me when it will just make you lose more credibility?

Okay, good. Have a good day. If you have nothing to contribute to the actual issue, and are obsessed over who said what I am not going to discuss people behind their backs so don’t believe it and move on. I will continue to discuss this with the people who do know what was said and you can continue to make unfounded accusations about my credibility. If that is your contribution to the thread, I believe you stated quite clearly you dont believe me, so there is no point in further discussing this with you.

obsessed? really?

just to makes things clear, you are the one who claim to know something and when you are questioned about it, you get defensive about it while making yet another claim. when another guy question about that, you type a wall of text over it.

you are not really here to discuss or debate, anyone who question you, you quickly shut them out.

X T D.6458:

Desert bl can go to hell for all I care, that and all the other garbage they added with hot ruined wvw and destroyed my desire for it. I only do wvw now because I want to play with my guild, there is little personal desire like before where I would want to jump in anytime I was online. I cannot contain my disgust for anet and what they did.

I don’t like the idea of a flat map, flat areas definitely but not the entire map, there needs to be some kind of diversity. The problem is the desert bl went to an extreme with that idea with the verticality bs, it feels like I’m going through a maze plus jumping puzzle. The alpine bl had some flaws with the layout but it was better designed for more strategic and key word FUN fights, the desert bl is not.

-Bring Back Alpine Map

-Get rid of Oasis event, the lag has gotten worse since you “fixed” it

-Revert Change to waypoints, they should be built not automatic

-The gimmicky garbage they added needs to be removed or heavily nerfed

-Nerf siege use against players, enough of the kitten siege wars and siegehumping cancer

-Create a wvw reward track, not progressable in eotm

-Change scoring system to award points on cap (PPC) based on upgrade tier of objective taken. Make PPT reflect the tiers of objectives, paper t1 keeps should not give the same PPC and PPT as an upgraded t3 keep.

For Example: Capping or Holding a keep would score like this
t1 keep-10points
t2 keep-15points
t3 keep-25points

This!!

Bring back Alpine until the next WvW overhaul

Agree with everything OP has said.
For those that want to discredit him or disagree with map layout try keeping it to one post.
Map layout is important and attracts or detracts from the fights considerably.
Balance ofc needs to be addressed but he is saying do “this” while you work on “that” and the vast vast vast majority of wvw players agree with this statement.

One change I’d like to see is to revert the WP timer kitten. Just stupid that they changed a “bug” that had been in the game for 3 years making capping keeps and defending them more entertaining. But instead now you need that gold sink and grind to get keep claiming and emergency waypoint tactic to properly defend the keep in case kitten hits the fan.
And just generally the WvW guild hall upgrades that got stolen from so many when the expac came. So sad

If the devs had actually listened to the WvW community for once instead of adding what they felt was fun they wouldn’t be in the position they are now.

I honestly can’t foresee this overhaul breathing life back into WvW. That may sound negative but Anet doesn’t really inspire confidence.

Colly.4073:

If the devs had actually listened to the WvW community for once instead of adding what they felt was fun they wouldn’t be in the position they are now.

I honestly can’t foresee this overhaul breathing life back into WvW. That may sound negative but Anet doesn’t really inspire confidence.

Sadly, I think this is our reality. I do not think the overhaul will do much, it will be far too little far too late. They sat on their hands and watched everyone leave. This is what happens when you have people who do not understand why WvW players play WvW creating the content for WvW without listening to the community. All that handcuffing players to things they do not enjoy does is make them leave.

Yo,

to make you all aware there’s a petition going for bringing back old maps, if anyone has suggestions and feedback on how it can be changed please comment on it.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/alpine

Anet has already stated they could care less about external petitions/surveys. Have fun.

They also said maps would eventually be on a rotation but there’s no date on that yet.

Weli.4568:

One change I’d like to see is to revert the WP timer kitten. Just stupid that they changed a “bug” that had been in the game for 3 years making capping keeps and defending them more entertaining. But instead now you need that gold sink and grind to get keep claiming and emergency waypoint tactic to properly defend the keep in case kitten hits the fan.
And just generally the WvW guild hall upgrades that got stolen from so many when the expac came. So sad

I have no idea how they could possibly release an expansion that took away everything guilds had already earned in WvW and now making it impossible for some of those guilds to ever have what they had before they went and dropped the cash on buying the expansion and think players would be happy about it.. They just had players spend more $ to receive less than they had prior to buying it and instead have their enjoyment of the game taken from them.

“We still intend to eventually bring back the Alpine Borderlands map, but it’s not as simple as just toggling it back on. We don’t have the tech for rotating between the two borderlands built yet, and the map itself required a significant amount of content updates to support all of the features that were added to WvW as part of the HoT update.” ~ Mike Obrien

What part of " players do not want you to ruin the Alpine Map with the HoT content" don’t they understand? They wont bring it back because it doesn’t have the Hot content added when the problem they are resolving by bringing it back is players DON’T WANT the HoT updates.. Players do not want the Auto crap that ruined WvW gameplay for so many, but they refuse to add Alpine back without adding the stuff players do not want.. They just do not " get" it. by the time they do ( if that ever happens) everyone will be gone.

Whatever they do, I just hope WvW has more jumping puzzles, and especially minigames. And let’s not forget the new tokens, currencies and miscelleaneous item collections. Because we ALL know that WvW players are just really (secretly) into PvE… right Colin?

What good is a petition when the only direction they take will be the opposite?

Unless it’s their own idea or a streamers idea, it will never happen.

Actually they specified that they had trouble getting the map switching to work on the world-map (wvw world map) on the live version.

joneirikb.7506:

Actually they specified that they had trouble getting the map switching to work on the world-map (wvw world map) on the live version.

They had problem with the rotation, not just bringing Alpine back without HoT content. They are not trying to bring Alpine back without HoT content, They want to mess it up with the Hot stuff that made everyone leave WvW in the first place rather than just bring back Alpine without the HoT content like players asked for.

They should bring back Alpine without the HoT content and not switch it DBL while working on it instead of doing what they tried to do..

lil devils x.6071:

joneirikb.7506:

Actually they specified that they had trouble getting the map switching to work on the world-map (wvw world map) on the live version.

They had problem with the rotation, not just bringing Alpine back without HoT content. They are not trying to bring Alpine back without HoT content, They want to mess it up with the Hot stuff that made everyone leave WvW in the first place rather than just bring back Alpine without the HoT content like players asked for.

They should bring back Alpine without the HoT content and not switch it DBL while working on it instead of doing what they tried to do..

Very much this. It’s pretty clear they still don’t realize that the HoT content was what put WvW in the position it’s in today. I find that really amazing.

This is a response to Tyler B’s comment on Reddit here:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FGuildwars2%2Fcomments%2F48zlyd%2Fim_mike_obrien_here_with_gw2_dev_team_ama%2Fd0nyizn

“We still intend to eventually bring back the Alpine Borderlands map, but it’s not as simple as just toggling it back on. We don’t have the tech for rotating between the two borderlands built yet, and the map itself required a significant amount of content updates to support all of the features that were added to WvW as part of the HoT update.”

I’ll have to agree that with toggling it back on, we would break and lose all the additions from HoT. BUT, it will make WvW so much better again! I believe it’s safe to say, outside of Synthesizers and maybe emergency way point, the rest of those “additions” are disliked. For me, I’d much rather play Pre Hot WvW again.

…… with Traveler and Speed runes working on Golems and transforms again!!!!!
<shakes fist for removing fun>

Seriously…. Dev’s…. trust me and just toggle Pre Hot WvW / Alpine back on for a test. If Pre HoT WvW runs then awesome. If it fails hard then revert it back within a day. We’d completely understand and appreciate the attempt. Don’t worry about rotating maps as we really don’t want to see that freaking Desert map for a long while.

Also, for the love of God, put back FRIDAY RESET!!!!!!! That can’t be too difficult a task.

DeWolfe.2174:

I’ll have to agree that with toggling it back on, we would break and lose all the additions from HoT.

Wouldn’t that be pretty much the whole point of bringing back the Alpines, terrain aside?

That’s a good point to make. That bringing back Alpine is not just about the terrain. It’s a huge part of it but, not the only part of it.

I’m assuming what’s holding up bring Alpine back online is Anet’s desire to rotate the maps more than it’s integrating all of the HoT changes. I really don’t see the difficulty though in adding the HoT changes to Alpine. The seemed to have added the HoT changes to EB cleanly enough. The asset packages are already in place, they just have to be integrated.