Guild Wars 2

I agree with everything you said, but I want to add one thing: Remove downed state from WvW (and sPvP) completely.

If you guys want DAoC, go play DAoC. Seems simple enough…?

Sky.9347:

If you guys want DAoC, go play DAoC. Seems simple enough…?

Unfortunately, while an enthusiast for, say, Classic Everquest could still play that game and get 80-90% of the experience they remember, DAoC has aged well past the point of relevance. Massive scale PvP combat requires a massive population.

Arena Net has also been very up front about naming DAoC as a major inspiration for WvWvW, so comparisons between the two games have been invited.

@Von:
I agree with most of what you have to say, especially water combat. That being said most of your opinions are not shared by this community and it is something you need to accept. This is a CASUAL game with casual players. They do not want to have to grind to stay competitive. Honestly who can blame them. The world has changed, gaming computers are less expensive and are easily distributed to a lot more people than in 2001. So the market is filled with a huge amount of casual gamers who work 40+ hours as week and use this game as a release. Hardcore gamers do not pay the bills, casuals do and you will see a vast majority of gaming companies tailor their games to them. DAOC was very much a hardcore game when comparing it to this one. I mean look at travel time alone. Here we just click the map poof we are across the world. You are a dying breed my friend and it is better to just let it go then try fight an uphill battle against the mass of casuals. Now I mean absolutely no offense to casual gamers. As it stands the borderlands are setup to allow quick easy access to the fight. I mean this isn’t really Sieging anyways. The system is almost an E -sport with a large amount of people. The point system ensures that holding supply camps during “Ticks” is more important than a 6 hour assault. Why because most people don’t have the six hours to spend toward sieging one keep, especially to have it taken back 15 minutes later. The problem you face is that GW2 trivializes everything. I work full time and already have two max level characters with full exotics. (Not bragging just saying it is not hard) Having a max level character in DAOC or EQ1 was a huge achievement in and of itself. Now it is basically handed to us. Trivialized content = trivialized achievements = fast burnout/boredom for hardcore gamers. Sorry to say it brother but this is a casual game with casual players and is just not for you. I theorize, however, the WvW will drastically die down in months to come once people get over “pvp for the fun of it”. Especially when all your hard work is erased come Monday when a certain server with 24/7 hour WvW coverage takes everything uncontested. So here are my pros and suggestions for casual improvements.

Pros:

1. Remember its free so take a break for awhile and then come back in a couple of months. I bet your not really spending a lot of real money on this game anyways.

2. Make a thief and look for small combat which is more rewarding for hardcore gamers.

3. Join a small Special Forces guild and run around doing bomb groups stuff

Suggestions:

1. Implement a Title system

2. Guild emblems on guards

3. out of ideas already!

Will.4165:

<snip>You are a dying breed my friend and it is better to just let it go then try fight an uphill battle against the mass of casuals.<snip>

Sadly, I think you may be right. It’s something I’ve thought about before, that the type of game that I want just won’t exist ever again. But I can’t stop trying to find it. Warhammer, and Mythic’s latest F2P Warhammer lite are evidence that even Mythic themselves doesn’t want to, or can’t figure out how to replicate it.

There’s a philosophical aspect to this. People instinctively don’t like the idea of adding more burden to becoming on level ground. I’m the same way. But without it, there’s no sense of accomplishment. It’s like people who play story games on easy setting, and then complain that it was only a 6 hour game and feel like they wasted their time and money. They’re hurting their own enjoyment.

Also, apparently I angered the moderation God with my “To ANet:” prefix on this thread and received a friendly little infraction…

Von.2790:

But without it, there’s no sense of accomplishment.

Horsecrap. I have no idea exactly when it was that this hilarious delusion began that the only way to experience a “sense of accomplishment” in a game was to watch your avatars numbers go up, but it’s like everyone’s IQ dropped 50 points overnight.

Somehow we have a world FULL of games and sports and competitive activities in which your sense of accomplishment and reward comes through winning or excelling, and yet we have this subsect of MMO players who continue to insist that the only meaningful form of reward is numbers. Numbers go up, or GTFO, they insist.

And both of you old school gamers can stop waxing poetic about a better time. I’ve been gaming since 1982. DAoC was an amazing game, but it was also an unbalanced nightmare of cheesing and exploits.

Ahahah really? that got you an infraction? Wow. Anyways i hear darkfall is making a new game with a class system this time and less death penalties. Aw death penalties how i hate you and miss you all at the same time!

Side note: What the Kittens do new game developers have against cloaks/capes and adding your guild emblem to them? Seriously i thought DAOC would have made that mandatory on all it’s successors.

Von, make a thread with your dream rvr game. Like if you could make a mmo what would it’s rvr combat be like?

SpectacularYak.6518:

Von.2790:

But without it, there’s no sense of accomplishment.

Horsecrap. I have no idea exactly when it was that this hilarious delusion began that the only way to experience a “sense of accomplishment” in a game was to watch your avatars numbers go up, but it’s like everyone’s IQ dropped 50 points overnight.

Somehow we have a world FULL of games and sports and competitive activities in which your sense of accomplishment and reward comes through winning or excelling, and yet we have this subsect of MMO players who continue to insist that the only meaningful form of reward is numbers. Numbers go up, or GTFO, they insist.

And both of you old school gamers can stop waxing poetic about a better time. I’ve been gaming since 1982. DAoC was an amazing game, but it was also an unbalanced nightmare of cheesing and exploits.

Now Pong… that kitten was BALANCED PVP!

How about we just quit keeping score all together? The only thing the score does is determine your server bonuses, which keep going up up up. Make it so the amount of Castles / Keeps / Towers / Camps determine your current server bonuses – an ever fluctuating amount. I think I speak for a lot of people when I say that at the end of the week, no one cares which server has the highest “score” – Everyone is more interested in balanced WvW and competitive fights. If you take away the ever growing score that makes you feel like you can’t come back, and you make those server bonuses dynamic and dependent on your current objective count – you let people excel during their prime time and give their server bonuses during their prime time. The score should go away, in turn getting rid of the score per “turn”. You want a dynamic game? This is how you make it dynamic, and get rid of the huge giant shadow of 300k – 40k – 30k. Obviously match up balancing needs to continue, but once it’s there – there’s no reason to keep score – do the above.

I agree 100% that there needs to be some form of realm ranks. However the over-the-top crazy powerful abilities you got in DAoC are a big no no. Here’s an idea a friend and I came up with:

Make Realm Ranks actual achievements (since they already have this system set up it works perfectly). To start, create 5 tiers of these achievements. Each tier gives you ONE trait point for a total of 5 trait points. It’s powerful and will help pvp’ers round out their builds, but it doesn’t break the competitive balance like some of the originally crazy OP DAoC realm abilities (forced zepher anyone?)

Now Arenanet doesn’t have to make these achievements easy. However, I wouldn’t make them JUST “killing x amount of world invaders”. Make tier 1 “10 keeps taken”, “25 towers taken” “50 camps taken” “200 world invaders killed” “1 pvp jump puzzle completed”, etc etc etc. After you finish that “achievement” you are awarded 1 trait point and over your name you become (I’ll use my server as an example): Jade Quarry ____ Invader (insert a title in the blank).

Make these achievements scale drastically but obviously not impossible. I think this would give people good reason to pvp (extra trait points are nice but not balance-breaking) and you’d also have that title to go along with it.

Great points, after you’ve tasted the crack that is daoc realm points and kill spam, any comparible game will seem a little thin.

Although the game is really much much better in so many ways, I do miss those things too. It would add an extra level of addiction overtop. Realm ranks should just add minor abilities to bridge gaps between classes, in daoc a full rank 12 player was a bit too formidable compared to even rank 5 (which was very easy to get to).

SpectacularYak.6518:

Von.2790:

But without it, there’s no sense of accomplishment.

Horsecrap. I have no idea exactly when it was that this hilarious delusion began that the only way to experience a “sense of accomplishment” in a game was to watch your avatars numbers go up, but it’s like everyone’s IQ dropped 50 points overnight.

Somehow we have a world FULL of games and sports and competitive activities in which your sense of accomplishment and reward comes through winning or excelling, and yet we have this subsect of MMO players who continue to insist that the only meaningful form of reward is numbers. Numbers go up, or GTFO, they insist.

And both of you old school gamers can stop waxing poetic about a better time. I’ve been gaming since 1982. DAoC was an amazing game, but it was also an unbalanced nightmare of cheesing and exploits.

You’re boiling down what I said into “watch your avatar’s numbers go up”. I wouldn’t play that game. If you over-simplify, sure it’ll sound dumb. I can simplify online gaming down to twiddling bits in a computer for hours at a time, and that sounds even more dumb!

We both know that what makes something fun cannot be easily boiled down to one thing. Yes, numbers went up in DAoC. But with that you also got other permanent abilities. You could feel yourself getting stronger. You could change the way you play the game by adding a new ability into your repertoire. This and many other things all contributed to a feeling of character progression. It gave a permanence and a reason to keep going out over and over again.

The problem with your analogy of other sports and competitions is that when you win, it IS permanent, and there is a very real, tangible sense of accomplishment. If the Cubs win the World Series in 2013, they will forever have won the World Series in 2013. There are dozens of ways that that sense of accomplishment could be diminished, say if the World Series were held weekly… And that’s the problem with winning being the reward in MMO’s. Because winning as a sense of accomplishment has been diminished. That’s precisely why something else, character progression for example, is needed to fill in the gap.

Von.2790:

SpectacularYak.6518:

Von.2790:

But without it, there’s no sense of accomplishment.

Horsecrap. I have no idea exactly when it was that this hilarious delusion began that the only way to experience a “sense of accomplishment” in a game was to watch your avatars numbers go up, but it’s like everyone’s IQ dropped 50 points overnight.

Somehow we have a world FULL of games and sports and competitive activities in which your sense of accomplishment and reward comes through winning or excelling, and yet we have this subsect of MMO players who continue to insist that the only meaningful form of reward is numbers. Numbers go up, or GTFO, they insist.

And both of you old school gamers can stop waxing poetic about a better time. I’ve been gaming since 1982. DAoC was an amazing game, but it was also an unbalanced nightmare of cheesing and exploits.

You’re boiling down what I said into “watch your avatar’s numbers go up”. I wouldn’t play that game. If you over-simplify, sure it’ll sound dumb. I can simplify online gaming down to twiddling bits in a computer for hours at a time, and that sounds even more dumb!

We both know that what makes something fun cannot be easily boiled down to one thing. Yes, numbers went up in DAoC. But with that you also got other permanent abilities. You could feel yourself getting stronger. You could change the way you play the game by adding a new ability into your repertoire. This and many other things all contributed to a feeling of character progression. It gave a permanence and a reason to keep going out over and over again.

The problem with your analogy of other sports and competitions is that when you win, it IS permanent, and there is a very real, tangible sense of accomplishment. If the Cubs win the World Series in 2013, they will forever have won the World Series in 2013. There are dozens of ways that that sense of accomplishment could be diminished, say if the World Series were held weekly… And that’s the problem with winning being the reward in MMO’s. Because winning as a sense of accomplishment has been diminished. That’s precisely why something else, character progression for example, is needed to fill in the gap.

But if the Cubs win the World Series in 2013 they don’t get the ability to now use heavier bats than the competition.

Sports have rules that are there to provide the most level playing field possible, so that the game becomes human vs. human, not equipment vs. equipment.

Ask Nascar, they have some experience with the difficulty of regulating performance machines.

Sky.9347:

But if the Cubs win the World Series in 2013 they don’t get the ability to now use heavier bats than the competition.

Sports have rules that are there to provide the most level playing field possible, so that the game becomes human vs. human, not equipment vs. equipment.

Ask Nascar, they have some experience with the difficulty of regulating performance machines.

Brad Pitt called, he wants you to look to look at a script.

No, they wouldn’t get to use heavier bats, but one of the “weapons” in major league baseball is money, and that is absolutely affected by winning. I’m straining my knowledge of baseball at this point, but compare the Yankees expenditure to the Cubs…

Von.2790:

You’re boiling down what I said into “watch your avatar’s numbers go up”. I wouldn’t play that game. If you over-simplify, sure it’ll sound dumb. I can simplify online gaming down to twiddling bits in a computer for hours at a time, and that sounds even more dumb!

I’m not really over simplifying though, that IS your argument. Does it sound less romantic when phrased that way? Certainly. Fine, we’ll change it to this. Your argument is that games are no fun without perpetual progression.

Von.2790:

We both know that what makes something fun cannot be easily boiled down to one thing. Yes, numbers went up in DAoC. But with that you also got other permanent abilities. You could feel yourself getting stronger. You could change the way you play the game by adding a new ability into your repertoire. This and many other things all contributed to a feeling of character progression. It gave a permanence and a reason to keep going out over and over again.

Yes, you experienced perpetual progression. You could hit harder, live longer, and were all around better. Man, did I enjoy trying to burn down Heroes with 5000HP and capped magic resistance, only to have them pop the complete heal they bought with their RPs. What fun! What an even playing field! It’s a poisonous enough concept in PvE, where it just shackles you to a treadmill upon which you can watch your goals ever remain elusively just out of reach. In PvP it is positively game breaking. It absolutely decimates the concept of fair competition, stratifies your population into haves and have nots, and makes PvP a completely miserable experience for any new player.

Von.2790:

The problem with your analogy of other sports and competitions is that when you win, it IS permanent, and there is a very real, tangible sense of accomplishment. If the Cubs win the World Series in 2013, they will forever have won the World Series in 2013. There are dozens of ways that that sense of accomplishment could be diminished, say if the World Series were held weekly… And that’s the problem with winning being the reward in MMO’s. Because winning as a sense of accomplishment has been diminished. That’s precisely why something else, character progression for example, is needed to fill in the gap.

If my server wins this week’s competition, that’s permanent too. When the Canucks beat the Red Wings, that win is permanent, but it doesn’t mean we won’t be playing the Red Wings again in a few weeks. In fact, sports teams play several games a week. Some, like baseball, can play multiple games a DAY. Somehow, people still care about the outcomes. Imagine that.

There is absolutely nothing that needs to “fill in the gap”, once you’ve created a fair and balanced competition (GW2 has a ways to go in this regard, but the foundation is there). You play the game because you enjoy the game, and your reward is winning or doing well. If you do NOT enjoy playing the game, I do not understand in the slightest how getting rewards that help you to perform better while playing a game you do not enjoy is any kind of desirable outcome.

I invite you to consider this. Sports in general, and games in general, have always been crafted around the concept of fair competition. Whether your game is football, chess, Starcraft, etc, the goal is to let your personal skill decide the outcome, not the fact that you’ve been playing for 5000 hours and your numbers are higher. These games and sports are enjoyed by millions if not billions of people world wide. Progression based MMOs have never enjoyed an audience larger than 12 million people, and even in that one game the question of the value of perpetual progression mechanics was extremely controversial. If I were a business owner, I know which audience I would court. As a person who loves GAMES, I know which way I want them to go.

Sky, The sense of accomplishment is still there because it hasn’t been trivialized by holding the world series every week. Also he is not saying massive server bonuses for winning, he is saying individual bonuses for playing over a long time. If the server wins week long WvW battle, the entire server should not get a “Heavier Bat” for next weeks battle. However if i played for 2 months consistently i would like to have something to show for it.
Von, its an uphill battle

Will.4165:

However if i played for 2 months consistently i would like to have something to show for it.

1. Why? Didn’t you have, you know, the enjoyment of competing in an activity you ostensibly enjoy to show for it?

2. If you don’t enjoy the competition, how would “getting something to show for it” that would improve your ability to participate in that competition make it more enjoyable?

3. Do you think you can allow a subset of the population to get progressively better than everyone else through time investment without harming the quality and fairness of the competition? Would you happily sacrifice a fair and balanced contest so you personally can kill people 10% faster? Do you think that’s HEALTHY for the game?

GW and GW2 were designed with the idea of gear progression not included. Grinds for mechanical or systemic bonuses are largely not present.

Progression in this game basically means cosmetic gear.

If that should ever change, I wouldn’t even log on the forums to whine about it. I would just do what I have done with so many games over the years, uninstall, put it on my shelf, and file it away as “well that was cool for a while”.

Many, many GW2 players are here primarily because of that design decision. Some players have been arguing to try to change it since the beta forums opened, and I sincerely hope ANet comes out soon with a statement that simply says: “no”.

1. Yak, I and a lot of gamers are different from you. I like the enjoyment of competing as well as progression. One without the other is not enough for me. I am happy that you are content with having no progression, hell I wish I was content as well.

2. I view the progression as an extra incentive. It helps during those times when you can’t get enough people on and your getting dominated to still pick up the fight. I honestly couldn’t tell you why “getting something to show for it” makes the competing more enjoyable but it does. Winning the world series comes with a trophy does it not? When Boston destroyed the Canucks and won the Stanley cup, they got a cup to show for it! I still remember chara holding it. They give rings for the super bowl and NBA.

3. This is your most valid point because it is true. Playing a HUGE progression system on WvW and pvp in general ensures that new players are not going to have as much enjoyment if they pickup the game months or years after release. We all saw it first hand with DAOC and especially with Warhammer. That does not mean it can’t be done. Small enhancements or titles mini pets dyes or cosmetic gear like cloaks would do it for me. I am not saying do what DAOC did because we all know a 12L is 4 times as strong as a 1L. Maybe make is so they have only a slight advantage.

Sky, I understand that’s why you are here, I simply agree with the OP and feel like it is really not enough.

Will.4165:

This is your most valid point because it is true. Playing a HUGE progression system on WvW and pvp in general ensures that new players are not going to have as much enjoyment if they pickup the game months or years after release. We all saw it first hand with DAOC and especially with Warhammer. That does not mean it can’t be done. Small enhancements or titles mini pets dyes or cosmetic gear like cloaks would do it for me. I am not saying do what DAOC did because we all know a 12L is 4 times as strong as a 1L. Maybe make is so they have only a slight advantage.

As I said earlier in the thread, I will support the idea of cosmetic rewards all day long. I support a cornucopia of cosmetic rewards. You can have armor that belches flame, and a swarm of golden panthers that lope along behind you. As long as the game balance remains sacrosanct, they can stack THAT kind of reward for playing to the sky.

Also, shut up about Boston, you monster! =P

Gear grinds work in bluebie pve instances where everyone wins by default or has the content nerfed to the point where they can win by default, WvWvW is not what you are looking for.

@Sky

I am here for that design decision. Still marveling with friends over TS how we can just have fun and not have to worry about being behind the grind because we take the time to go look at something we find interesting. It’s like playing Zelda games in a sense, where you’re not punished for exploring the world.

Last night I was about to go to bed, and just decided to do all the WvW jumping puzzles. On the very last one, I was jumping along and saw some warrior fall off. Just by his movements I knew he wasn’t great at jumping and it was likely his first time. I did my thing, completed the top portion, then the bottom. As I came down finally I saw him miss a simple jump – the one where if you’re too close on the branch you hit your head and fall down. Ah well, let’s go give him some help. So I just stood by that jump, waited for him to come, and told him, “You have to jump from here, else you’ll hit your head and fall down.” He said thanks, and I made the jump, and then he did. He seemed accepting of the help, so I just kept a step ahead of him, showing him certain jumps. He fell. He fell a lot. Each time I’d jump down with him and swim back and go to the top and so on. One time some enemy players came in. Three ended up downing him in the water, but I was hiding nearby and came in to rez him. Back to the jumps, we slowly, over many falls, made it to the top portion. Awesome. And then we began the much harder lower portion. More falls. I told him to hold back a little jumping across the floating pillars. And finally he got the lower portion and we made it to the treasure chest. It was his first time doing the jumping puzzle in WvW.

I did it because well, I like doing that sometimes. And I did it because I wasn’t missing out on anything. I didn’t have a grind to keep up with. Nothing to chase after. I can actually help if I want, or ignore it if I want, and I’m not punished. The reward is the friendship and the thanks. And the fun. It was still fun even when I had already completed the task.

Introduce a single ounce of grind to make my character more powerful because I played longer than someone else, and that guy would have been left in the dust. Actually I’d just quit the game completely. This is not WoW. If you need a carrot, it’s just because WoW and all the other MMOs found they could make money off you by dangling one in front of you, and you’d just keep paying to have a chance at the carrot. It’s insult to injury when in their new WoW expansion, one of the first mini bosses is a cartoon rat that blocks your way with a carrot! I’m serious!!!

Lots of people play games to chase the carrot they will never achieve, or only achieve if they play for so long and get so lucky that they get the carrot, and then they are met with another patch, another carrot, and the cycle continues. All the while taking money from you every month. I play for fun; most people do, but are so trained otherwise right now. Play for fun, and have fun, and do fun things. Don’t just sit there looking for the next grind. Get that plaque off your mind, off your imagination. The kinds of crazy fun I had last night I can’t even explain – even before helping the guy jump. I was going to go to sleep at 1am and next thing I knew it was 4am.

Fun is the endgame people, seriously. If you take a step back, you realize that’s the end-game for everything entertainment. So why do you need a carrot to hold you back from the actual fun? Just get right to the fun part, and enjoy it. That’s what GW2 gives you.

Why does every game have these DAoC fanatics?

We know it was a good game, we really do…STOP doing these comparisons. This is GW2 not DAoC…If you want DAoC then play that game…it’s the same thing people need to learn when it comes to WoW as well.

GW2 is it’s own game, if you want a clone of the others then its simple, just go play the others and leave GW2 to be it’s own game.

http://darkageofcamelot.com/ This Should help. FYI there are titles that come from doing WvW just FYI.

Vexus.5423:

@Sky

I am here for that design decision. Still marveling with friends over TS how we can just have fun and not have to worry about being behind the grind because we take the time to go look at something we find interesting. It’s like playing Zelda games in a sense, where you’re not punished for exploring the world.

Last night I was about to go to bed, and just decided to do all the WvW jumping puzzles. On the very last one, I was jumping along and saw some warrior fall off. Just by his movements I knew he wasn’t great at jumping and it was likely his first time. I did my thing, completed the top portion, then the bottom. As I came down finally I saw him miss a simple jump – the one where if you’re too close on the branch you hit your head and fall down. Ah well, let’s go give him some help. So I just stood by that jump, waited for him to come, and told him, “You have to jump from here, else you’ll hit your head and fall down.” He said thanks, and I made the jump, and then he did. He seemed accepting of the help, so I just kept a step ahead of him, showing him certain jumps. He fell. He fell a lot. Each time I’d jump down with him and swim back and go to the top and so on. One time some enemy players came in. Three ended up downing him in the water, but I was hiding nearby and came in to rez him. Back to the jumps, we slowly, over many falls, made it to the top portion. Awesome. And then we began the much harder lower portion. More falls. I told him to hold back a little jumping across the floating pillars. And finally he got the lower portion and we made it to the treasure chest. It was his first time doing the jumping puzzle in WvW.

I did it because well, I like doing that sometimes. And I did it because I wasn’t missing out on anything. I didn’t have a grind to keep up with. Nothing to chase after. I can actually help if I want, or ignore it if I want, and I’m not punished. The reward is the friendship and the thanks. And the fun. It was still fun even when I had already completed the task.

Introduce a single ounce of grind to make my character more powerful because I played longer than someone else, and that guy would have been left in the dust. Actually I’d just quit the game completely. This is not WoW. If you need a carrot, it’s just because WoW and all the other MMOs found they could make money off you by dangling one in front of you, and you’d just keep paying to have a chance at the carrot. It’s insult to injury when in their new WoW expansion, one of the first mini bosses is a cartoon rat that blocks your way with a carrot! I’m serious!!!

Lots of people play games to chase the carrot they will never achieve, or only achieve if they play for so long and get so lucky that they get the carrot, and then they are met with another patch, another carrot, and the cycle continues. All the while taking money from you every month. I play for fun; most people do, but are so trained otherwise right now. Play for fun, and have fun, and do fun things. Don’t just sit there looking for the next grind. Get that plaque off your mind, off your imagination. The kinds of crazy fun I had last night I can’t even explain – even before helping the guy jump. I was going to go to sleep at 1am and next thing I knew it was 4am.

Fun is the endgame people, seriously. If you take a step back, you realize that’s the end-game for everything entertainment. So why do you need a carrot to hold you back from the actual fun? Just get right to the fun part, and enjoy it. That’s what GW2 gives you.

I am in 100% agreement.

I recently convinced my wife to play GW2. She spends her play time just clearing off maps, avoiding the hearts, collecting resources, and crafting. She is enjoying it, and amazingly enough she keeps a good pace in leveling.

I personally play games for PvP… any game against a computer opponent tends to bore me, I need to play against humans. But I also don’t grind. I just want to pick up the game, play it, and put it down when I’m done.

I quit playing MMOs in general because I didn’t like the feeling of having a second job. I do not want to grind out super powers, or earn anything outside of what my enemies have.

I don’t want to win because I’ve got the most play time, I want to win because I’m better at the game than you.

Wow you people are ridiculously. Your post almost feel like your butthurt because someone has a different opinion than you. At least sky and yak offer intelligent arguments focusing on the issues of then thread instead of Go play DAOC. Kitten you, I can compare this game to any game i want too. I can also ask peoples opinion on certain aspect of the game play and state things i wish they did. Hey guess what! GW2 WvW is a lot like DAOC RVR! opps did i offend you chris?

Thanks sky and yak for an intelligent argument.

Can someone outline the pros and cons of DAoC? I never played it and am curious what improvements could feasibly be made with WvW.

In my perspective, the biggest drawback is lack of players on one server over another. And then buffing the bigger team with orbs, and large zergs. It only makes less people queue. It’s getting worse.

The maps were bigger, there were less players roaming those maps (because all MMOs back then had a significantly smaller playerbase) , and renown ranks. That’s really all DAoC had over WvW.

ToA was the day DAoC died anyway, so all of this mildly irrelevant.

Heh DAoC! It’s too hardcore for most ppl, the teams that polish up their teamwork can just roll and keep rolling bigger groups. Its that OP! For the casual players its really going with less teamwork isnt even going to enjoy playing. OP is clearly missing the point here.

There is teamwork involve in current GW2 system, and it is the main reason why some servers do very well and some dont. When u have a large zerg that just moves around trying to take everything on the map with no clear direction or strategy and understanding of the mechanics of WvWvW in GW2 that server will never succeed. You need to organize and be discipline about your objectives and actions in WvWvW.

There is alot of depth in WvWvW for GW2 but people chose not to ‘see’ and only want the fast and quick way of doing things. GW2 WvWvW is not ALL about group smashing groups. You guys need to read and educate yourself on the system before complaining or suggesting new ideas. Go explore and figure out the current system than give suggestions.

As you can see OP, there are a lot of people who do not have the same view as you about what GW2 WvW lacks/needs. Even DAoC vets. Different people enjoy different things, and its all a matter of opinion. At the end of the day, ANET will have to decide which features are more fun to most of their customers.

I WvW for fun. Sorry if that’s not enough for the OP, but it is for me. vOv

If you want that people stay focus in WvW, just add realm ranks like you said few month ago …

One thing I know for sure, they need to add more sets of cosmetic gear to buy from the WvW vendors and also up the amount of Honor Badges you get. Seems like I am not getting much.

I attended three WvW guild events in the past 10 days. Two for 6 hrs each and one for about 4 hrs. During those 3 events (which had a lot of action) I have acquired 118 Honor Badges that’s about 7 per hr. That seems really low for the time spent in there tbh. So I wouldn’t mind seeing this buffed up.

Will.4165:

Wow you people are ridiculously. Your post almost feel like your butthurt because someone has a different opinion than you. At least sky and yak offer intelligent arguments focusing on the issues of then thread instead of Go play DAOC. Kitten you, I can compare this game to any game i want too. I can also ask peoples opinion on certain aspect of the game play and state things i wish they did. Hey guess what! GW2 WvW is a lot like DAOC RVR! opps did i offend you chris?

Thanks sky and yak for an intelligent argument.

Hey it just right down stupid to ask one game to be a other , especially when said game is still being played. It plain and simple don’t like it GTFO.

If the OP wants personal glory .. er hello SPvp seriously , why cry about WvW where all the hardcore action is in Spvp.

WvW or RvR w/e you want to call it is for casuals. You don’t see me popping off saying I have swag because I have the patience to sit in Orge watch for two hours in front of a Ballista shooting down people. Oh I am so hardcore yo!!

OP want personal Glory HELLO SPVP!!!!

I played DAOC and loved it. Here are my thoughts in case any of the GW2 devs are following this thread.

1) Titles based upon WvW performance (kills, keep lords killed, etc…). This gives you a sense of who you are facing and just how experienced they are. Lets you get a better idea of your own progress.

2) Killspam messages. Gets you in the mood because you know who is active and lets you jump right in to planning on where you are going to catch them and how you want to fight them. Very important on getting those rivalries going that make the game fun.

3) Larger maps with more open field fights. Right now the WvW is all about taking keeps. I would love to see more open field fights that focus on movement and maneuver rather than on seige.

Franko.1780:

I played DAOC and loved it. Here are my thoughts in case any of the GW2 devs are following this thread.

1) Titles based upon WvW performance (kills, keep lords killed, etc…). This gives you a sense of who you are facing and just how experienced they are. Lets you get a better idea of your own progress.

2) Killspam messages. Gets you in the mood because you know who is active and lets you jump right in to planning on where you are going to catch them and how you want to fight them. Very important on getting those rivalries going that make the game fun.

3) Larger maps with more open field fights. Right now the WvW is all about taking keeps. I would love to see more open field fights that focus on movement and maneuver rather than on seige.

We already have titles for WvW how many times must this be repeated?

Seriously what is it with you people personal Glory in WvW where it more about Teamwork.

What don’t have the cojones for SPVP? That must be it……

You people sound the the fake battleground heroes from wow who could not cut it in Arena, so they go to battleground and act like their boss.

silliness

Jestersmiles.4365:

Franko.1780:

I played DAOC and loved it. Here are my thoughts in case any of the GW2 devs are following this thread.

1) Titles based upon WvW performance (kills, keep lords killed, etc…). This gives you a sense of who you are facing and just how experienced they are. Lets you get a better idea of your own progress.

2) Killspam messages. Gets you in the mood because you know who is active and lets you jump right in to planning on where you are going to catch them and how you want to fight them. Very important on getting those rivalries going that make the game fun.

3) Larger maps with more open field fights. Right now the WvW is all about taking keeps. I would love to see more open field fights that focus on movement and maneuver rather than on seige.

We already have titles for WvW how many times must this be repeated?

Seriously what is it with you people personal Glory in WvW where it more about Teamwork.

What don’t have the cojones for SPVP? That must be it……

You people sound the the fake battleground heroes from wow who could not cut it in Arena, so they go to battleground and act like their boss.

silliness

Spvp is boring and you dont get anything for winning there either(i dont count new fancy clothes as anything). . If you played daoc and had a decent roaming group you would know what were looking for. Knocking people off a node isnt pvp. I dont know wtf it is. Not fun after 3 weeks thats for sure. I also have no issue with teamwork. As long as its me and 4 others. I dont need to be with 50 other people then it becomes boring. part o the fun about daoc was the room to roam and fight and not know what you were gonna run into. Thats why i want to like the w3 in this game but its so cluttered I dont think it will ever be like that.

Kso.6458:

Jestersmiles.4365:

Franko.1780:

I played DAOC and loved it. Here are my thoughts in case any of the GW2 devs are following this thread.

1) Titles based upon WvW performance (kills, keep lords killed, etc…). This gives you a sense of who you are facing and just how experienced they are. Lets you get a better idea of your own progress.

2) Killspam messages. Gets you in the mood because you know who is active and lets you jump right in to planning on where you are going to catch them and how you want to fight them. Very important on getting those rivalries going that make the game fun.

3) Larger maps with more open field fights. Right now the WvW is all about taking keeps. I would love to see more open field fights that focus on movement and maneuver rather than on seige.

We already have titles for WvW how many times must this be repeated?

Seriously what is it with you people personal Glory in WvW where it more about Teamwork.

What don’t have the cojones for SPVP? That must be it……

You people sound the the fake battleground heroes from wow who could not cut it in Arena, so they go to battleground and act like their boss.

silliness

Spvp is boring and you dont get anything for winning there either(i dont count new fancy clothes as anything). . If you played daoc and had a decent roaming group you would know what were looking for. Knocking people off a node isnt pvp. I dont know wtf it is. Not fun after 3 weeks thats for sure. I also have no issue with teamwork. As long as its me and 4 others. I dont need to be with 50 other people then it becomes boring. part o the fun about daoc was the room to roam and fight and not know what you were gonna run into. Thats why i want to like the w3 in this game but its so cluttered I dont think it will ever be like that.

“you dont get anything for winning there either”…… -_- , PVP is not about Fluff, it about showing your better than someone else, WvW is about Servers trying to show off who better.

By your definition no mode outside Deathmatch is considered pvp….. LOL wow ok.

People obsession with the imagery dangling carrot makes me laugh.

BTW hitting a door for 15 minutes ….is SOOOOOO FUN……

This game actually does have penalties for getting into a defeated or downed state.

Being defeated slowly breaks your gear, while being downed frequently causes you to enter the downed state with less and less HP until you go immediately to the defeated state.

Jetersmiles, it’s pretty clear you didn’t actually read any of the content in this thread before spewing your bile at us.

Von.2790:

Too Hard to Kill People
This one is the most aggravating problems I’ve encountered so far. Due to the removal of healers, classes have been given excessive survival abilities. I understand why it was done and what was trying to be accomplished, but right now fights are way too long and drawn out. Escaping with less than 5% HP happens far too often. I don’t just say that from the killing side, but from the escaping side. My warrior has escaped far too many situations where I really should have been dead. I think there needs to be some balancing work done here.

Two features DAoC had that I think would help here are 1) slowed by low health, and 2) resurrection sickness. The slow as you get lower and lower health would help the situation where people escape at low health when they really should have been dead. Resurrection sickness would help solve the problem, that as I perceive it, larger numbers will almost always win, due to more people to resurrect the dead back to full effectiveness. A superior skilled force should be able to take down a larger but less skilled force. Right now I don’t see that as really possible.

Finally, water fights are simply broken. I’m not sure what the plan was here, but there doesn’t seem to be a way to finish someone off in the water, without continuing to damage them through downed state. Trying to truly kill someone in the water results in a solid minute of chasing after a downed body that bobs to and from the surface.

Conclusion
There are other minor issues that I’ll only mention, such as there being such a thing as too much misdirection (think clones, vanishing). Keep defense being too skewed in favor of defenders. Queues (not such a minor issue, but a known quantity). Fair-weather free transfers to winning realms.

I want to make it clear that the reason I invested so much time in this analysis is not because I’m some kid with too much time on my hands. I’m an adult, I work full-time (as a senior software engineer, hire me ANet), and I’ve had many iterations of new MMO’s coming out and disappointing me to reflect on what it was about DAoC that I’m trying to find again. I think there is great potential in this game to find what I’m looking for. It’s the best attempt yet, but still not there.

Thanks for reading,

Phlow – Pellinor’s Descendants – Sanctum of Rall

[TLDR]

• Former DAoC player continually disappointed by MMO’s
• No real reason to WvW
• No Community Building
• Too hard to kill people.
• GW2 has potential

I have to agree with some of these. Mainly the lack of motivation. Yes, you should be able to PvP for fun and not for loots. I get it. But guess what, WvW isn’t fun. It’s a zergfest.

To answer your 1st question, and I know people are going to scream over this, but guess what – the combat takes almost everything from WoW in GW2 cue gasp.

Don’t believe me? Ask yourself the following questions:

1. Is there a global cooldown?
2. Are there AoE, PBAoE, and single target spells?
3. Is there a casting bar?
4. How about gound target spells?
5. Do you see numbers floating above the character you’re hitting?
6. Is there crowd control and self-buff abilities?
7. Can you switch weapons to obtain different abilities (Okay, I’ll stipulate to this only pertaining to Warriors in WoW, but it’s still not original!)

We’re all bored with this system. If you’re going to brag about being different, why not try actually being different? TERA does this well, and while it’s not a great game, the combat system was exciting and fun. DAoC’s combat was different, as well. My initial and lasting impression of this combat system is still a WoW rip-off.

Let’s move onto #2. There is no incentive in this game. Some people like that, others don’t. I think there SHOULD be incentive. I play pvp games (fighting games, mmos, shooters, etc.) because I A. enjoy them, and B. progress. Without one or sometimes BOTH of those things, the game becomes stale. For those that think I’m completely wrong, then we should all petition to take out any leveling system at all. You should not have to obtain your abilities, crafting recipes, or gear. If the whole purpose is fun, none of that should matter, and if it doesn’t, then ask yourself this: why is it in the game?

For #3, I’m not sure that’s necessarily an issue at this time, so I won’t address it.

For #4, I agree. The downed-state is unique. It’s different… Doesn’t make it good, though.

I think GW2 HAD potential. But they’re going in a direction that hardcore gamers will not like nor follow. For casuals it’s a great game – they can have fun without requiring a lot of time or skill to enjoy themselves.

Overall, I think we had our hopes too high for this game. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a brilliantly crafted game that deserves attention. But for us hardcore gamers, it isn’t enough.

“Jetersmiles, it’s pretty clear you didn’t actually read any of the content in this thread before spewing your bile at us.”

Agreed

GW2 is not DAoC
DAoC is not GW2

Raffie.7865:

GW2 is not DAoC
DAoC is not GW2

This. Just because this game steals almost all their ideas from other games (DAoC rvr, WoW combat system, Warhammer Online quest system) doesn’t mean it’s not it’s own game.

Every game steals from other games.

Basically all MMO’s stold from UO and EverQuest, who in turn stole from D&D.

I called it a long time ago, people would say " you just want the game the way you want it" “screw what other people want” threads galore. No reason to pvp when the score is out of hand, etc.. etc.. I called it WEEKS AND WEEKS ago.

If there was a DAOC realm rank system this wouldn’t be happening, however the oceanic problems would still exist at the core.

Raffie.7865:

Every game steals from other games.

Basically all MMO’s stold from UO and EverQuest, who in turn stole from D&D.

Yes, but those games aren’t boasting that they’re re-inventing the MMO genre…

Stopped reading at “No Real Reason to WvW”… Some of he most popular games in the world were about having fun with no incentive in doing good or bad. I remember when people played games to have fun. Now everyone needs little star stickers and m&ms for completing every task like their mommy use to give them when they were a kid. In a few years time it will go from M&Ms and star stickers to needing the game company to pay you a salary to play.

lcizzle.8219:

Stopped reading at “No Real Reason to WvW”… Some of he most popular games in the world were about having fun with no incentive in doing good or bad. I remember when people played games to have fun. Now everyone needs little star stickers and m&ms for completing every task like their mommy use to give them when they were a kid. In a few years time it will go from M&Ms and star stickers to needing the game company to pay you a salary to play.

So many of you are missing the point. Yes, there is fun in WvW currently, without what I’ve brought up. The point is that it’s only fun for short segments. Battlegrounds are fun, for a little while. Eventually though, I, like many others, tire of them and their meaninglessness.

Achievements and cosmetic progress is completely lost on me. I really couldn’t care less. But I get it. Many of you are happy the way things are. I question how long you’ll truly stay interested the way things are now, but that’s great for you!

All I’m offering is an analysis of what I KNOW to be fun for me and many others like me, that is a decade in the making. I think there’s room for everyone to enjoy this game. My enjoyment doesn’t necessarily have to come at the cost of yours.

lcizzle.8219:

Stopped reading at “No Real Reason to WvW”… Some of he most popular games in the world were about having fun with no incentive in doing good or bad. I remember when people played games to have fun. Now everyone needs little star stickers and m&ms for completing every task like their mommy use to give them when they were a kid. In a few years time it will go from M&Ms and star stickers to needing the game company to pay you a salary to play.

No, but if they’re going to package up the same gameplay we’ve had throughout the MMO world and change the UI a little with some small feature additions, then YES – we need an incentive to play. Some of us like to achieve things in games.