Analysis of GW2 WvW compared to DAoC RvR. [Long]
This IS a thread comparing this to DAoC though. That was the point of it. Also, with it using forced side v side pvp you can’t help but compare it. They were the first to do it.
At this rate, this is not an MMO but a fantasy RPG/FPS kinda hybrid thingy. which is ok I guess but it was billed as an MMO. Also, why is it everyone thinks anyone who wants progression wants the “HAHA im RR1000 you insta die!”. We are only asking for progression, not insta wins. They were annoying in DAoC, and they would be annoying here.
It’s MMO.
It’s Massive
It’s Multi-player
It’s Online
It’s a Massive Multi-player Online Game a.k.a MMO
Izuvac.5713 “…like imagine 2 taliban server against 1 american…”
This IS a thread comparing this to DAoC though. That was the point of it. Also, with it using forced side v side pvp you can’t help but compare it. They were the first to do it.
At this rate, this is not an MMO but a fantasy RPG/FPS kinda hybrid thingy. which is ok I guess but it was billed as an MMO. Also, why is it everyone thinks anyone who wants progression wants the “HAHA im RR1000 you insta die!”. We are only asking for progression, not insta wins. They were annoying in DAoC, and they would be annoying here.
It’s MMO.
It’s Massive
It’s Multi-player
It’s OnlineIt’s a Massive Multi-player Online Game a.k.a MMO
You do realize that the what the letter mean does not constitute what it is actually billed as though correct? Perception means everything. when you think of an MMO you think of progression. If you don’t, you are flat out lying and you know it.
Maybe these Free to Play models just dont work for the long haul. Light on the content, no depth to the pvp, and the complexity is somewhere around fisher price. There is no skill in this game at all. Either make the fotm 5/8man for sPvP or zergroll everything in WvW.
Welp, guess we’ll see in about a month as they said they are recoding some of the core to make changes to WvW. At that point we will see if it has any sustainability at all. If not, I expect another aoc or swtor ghost town.
You do realize that the what the letter mean does not constitute what it is actually billed as though correct? Perception means everything. when you think of an MMO you think of progression. If you don’t, you are flat out lying and you know it.
You’re talking about MMO-RPGs. There are other types of MMOs which are not RPGs.
like MMO-RTS, MMO-FPS or MMO-Browser.
You’re using terminology wrong. I understand your perception argument but it’s your perception, as you only played MMO-RPGs which have item/stat grind it seems.
There have been other MMO-RPG games around which were not heavy on item/stat grind like Darkfall or Mortal Online.
Izuvac.5713 “…like imagine 2 taliban server against 1 american…”
It will be difficult to do worse population wise then DAoC. So I guess they’re doing pretty well already.
I’m sorry that you’re not entirely up to date on what an mmo means. Do you also still carry around a pager?
well Tarnin.. here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBJ3lUCB5I0
I think the people shooting this video obviously has all 3 OP orb bonuses, BUT those orb bonuses are no where close to how OP DAoC realm skills instances were. This is what a well played team can do against zergs. Without additional skills.
This is a MMO but sPvP plays a lot like a FPS in that there are “rooms” and team vs team etc. Nothing wrong with that. WvWvW great and I really love the fact that once you get base level 80 gear you don’t have to worry about it anymore. That is a very Daoc like thing (before ToA) where you would just craft a good set up and be done with it.
What daoc people would love and I’m sure everyone else too is a simple way to progress without it necessarily giving any power. Similar to how FPS game servers do stat tracking. When I play Counter Strike on my favorite server I can see how many headshots with every weapon, my K/D ratio, who my biggest enemy is, who I dominate, my best maps. STATS, give us tons and tons of stats. Stats are progression in a way and just as addicting as getting some uber l33t piece of gear (better imo).
Add in some “point” system and cosmetics/titles related to it and along with the stats you have an awesome system that doesn’t get away from the Guild Wars 2 idea of skill over gear. How can even anti Daoc people disagree with this?
(edited by Stiv.1820)
well Tarnin.. here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBJ3lUCB5I0
I think the people shooting this video obviously has all 3 OP orb bonuses, BUT those orb bonuses are no where close to how OP DAoC realm skills instances were. This is what a well played team can do against zergs. Without additional skills.
Holy CRAP the people they were playing against were horrible. They were playing a modified extension style and the enemy was just falling for it and getting chewed up by their machine. The warrior is charging in, poking away at some scrubs than rolling out. Scrub players give chance into their properly fanned out group and get machined.
Also, if you see, there are a ton of sub 80’s they are fighting. So they DO have additional skills as many of the scrubs dont even have full talent points yet.
Lastly, I never ever asked for over powered skills, I keep asking for progression. What part of that blows right past every ones head and lands behind them? I figure the ones arguing agaisnt any progression are either super casual or gen4 only players who have no idea what complexity or progression really is outside of “ugh, grind gear to grind gear”.
’ll start by saying that ever since I stopped playing DAoC many years ago, I am constantly on the lookout for the next game that can bring me the same level of enjoyment that I had in RvR. I compare every new game against DAoC, and thus far I have been disappointed by every MMO. It seems that no one really understands what made it so good. I suspect there are a lot of former DAoC players that feel the same way.
So without further ado:
No Real Reason to WvW
Right now, the reasons to WvW in GW2 are all focused around acquiring gear. — No having battles and enjoying ‘playing’ the game is key. You have been trained by WoW to believe in ‘end game’. The point is to enjoying playing the game, not getting to a destination.
If you’re like me, wearing all exotics, there isn’t much to gain. Karma, Tokens, Cash, none of it will really advance me in any meaningful way. There is always the quest for legendary weapons, but to be honest the bar is set so high that only the most obsessive people have their sights set on it. I wrote it off already as Not Gonna Happen. World bonuses are nice temporary rewards, but they’re too transparent and more of a product of the whole World’s performance, not my personal performance.
— Correct, it is ‘World v World’ not ‘Me v Them’ Looking for personal performance in a server versus server battle is irrelivant. However, personal gain can be a powerful motivator. Even the ability to have a scoreboard for Server and Guild would go a long way to helping. Having battles and enjoying ‘playing’ the game is key. You have been trained by WoW to believe in ‘end game’. The point is to enjoying playing the game, not getting to a destination.
Example
Server and Guild performance scoreboards listing (For each of the two):
- Daily (24) Top 10/20 players
- Weekittenop 10/20 players
- Rotation Top 10/20 players (reset each matchup)
- Monthly Top 10/20 players
- All Time Top 10/20 players
There is a serious lack of permanence to WvW. One of the main driving forces for going out to RVR in DAoC was that you could constantly gain Realm Points for yourself. The more realm points you had, the more realm abilities you could buy, by achieving higher realm ranks. These abilities were passive bonuses and active skills that make you a stronger fighter. This was in addition to your quest for the best gear.
— Hell No! MLs and RRs shut out so many new players it was a joke. Running around 1 v 10’ing groups of new players was awful. ToA didn’t help and the artifacts alone just massacred new players. The problem was MLs and RPs created a ‘Rich get Richer’ gap leaving new players unable to compete. That problem only gets worse with time. However, cosmetic rewards I think are a great idea. The gear disparity is already bad enough since I can pretty much 1 v 5 people if they are a fresh 80s and God help them if they are up-leveled. We do not need to punish and shut out new players because you want to ‘pwn n00bz’ with a massive advantage though abilities and gear. It’s bad enough as it is, MLs and RPs would just exacerbate the problem. Cosmetics sure but DAOC suffered enough of that crap post ToA. It was great if you were on top, effortless kills 3 shotting new players doesn’t help anyone.
(cont)
“No Mercy for the Panda Kids. We don’t want you. We don’t need you.”
Lack of Community Building
The lack of community building in recent MMO’s has really been unfortunate. It’s a difficult problem, which is likely why every MMO seems to fail so hard at it. Communities form organically, they can’t be forced. All you can do is provide the opportunities for those communities to form organically. … Lastly there was the Camelot Herald where you could track Realm Point progress vs. others. Being able to actively track yourself vs. others kept it interesting. With weekly sub totals so if people had a good week, they could achieve some level of notoriety.
— See scoreboard reccomandation above, but you still see the guild tag. Guilds get noteriety. Guilds get famous. This is GUILD WARS not ME WARS. I know exactly what guilds are a threat and which ones are not. I know the who’s who of all the servers I’ve faced. In the WvW forums I see plenty of what you just described. Just because you haven’t been invited to alliance vent\ts3 servers doesn’t mean we aren’t doing that. We just know that spies abound and to keep on the low.
Too Hard to Kill People
This one is the most aggravating problems I’ve encountered so far. Due to the removal of healers, classes have been given excessive survival abilities. I understand why it was done and what was trying to be accomplished, but right now fights are way too long and drawn out. Escaping with less than 5% HP happens far too often. I don’t just say that from the killing side, but from the escaping side. My warrior has escaped far too many situations where I really should have been dead. I think there needs to be some balancing work done here.
— It’s solid. Good rush if you escape, good sense of satisfaction when they die. It sounds more like you want WvW to be Quake Arena. They are easy enough to kill, easier then the days of breaking a camped a tower with a pair of PBAOE’ers at the top of the stairs. What it does it actually make the battle interesting rather then zerging over a group and not even bothering to stop like in DAOC. Literally we’d hit up Midgard, bard up, and roll over people without stopping with the exception to cast a grip of AOEs and PBAOEs then move on. I’ll pass on .5 second battles, I like this model.
Two features DAoC had that I think would help here are 1) slowed by low health, and 2) resurrection sickness. The slow as you get lower and lower health would help the situation where people escape at low health when they really should have been dead. Resurrection sickness would help solve the problem, that as I perceive it, larger numbers will almost always win, due to more people to resurrect the dead back to full effectiveness. A superior skilled force should be able to take down a larger but less skilled force. Right now I don’t see that as really possible.
— There is, if you get dropped and rally you have a debuff that reduces you health when you rally again. You cannot rally more then 4 times normally as the 4th downing is automatic death. There are 3 different snares off the top of my head, 4 different roots, and a crap load of dots. If people are escaping you either forgot to have a run speed buff, didn’t spec a snare, and both sound like a problem with the player doing the killing rather then the fleeing.
Finally, water fights are simply broken. I’m not sure what the plan was here, but there doesn’t seem to be a way to finish someone off in the water, without continuing to damage them through downed state. Trying to truly kill someone in the water results in a solid minute of chasing after a downed body that bobs to and from the surface.
— I just hit them 4 more times and they die. Sounds like a DPS problem. Try rooting them in place, slapping a snare on them.. try… using…. your…. skills….
“No Mercy for the Panda Kids. We don’t want you. We don’t need you.”
To your last point, The issue isnt killing people in water fights, its their ability to bob around like apples and get away. something is broken there for them to go from a downed states to death death. they pop to the top, invuln, you hit them they sink then backup. Over and over. Even chain hitting them they can keep this apple bob going for a quite a while and if its not 1v1 by the time you finish them off, you are either dead or their friends have caught up to you.
My main problem with WvW in guild wars 2, compared to Daoc has to be the zones. Not enough room to roam and mobs are spread out everywhere instead of small camps of them with empty spaces between.
Another problem would be having four different zones, and not one large zone like new frontiers had. Or if they have to stay separate, then the fast speed a player can respawn and return to a battle. Killing off a large number of players isn’t much of a victory when they can be back in 2 to 3 minutes, less time than it took you to kill them. Faster even if they have a keep with a waypoint to spawn to.
My main problem with WvW in guild wars 2, compared to Daoc has to be the zones. Not enough room to roam and mobs are spread out everywhere instead of small camps of them with empty spaces between.
Another problem would be having four different zones, and not one large zone like new frontiers had. Or if they have to stay separate, then the fast speed a player can respawn and return to a battle. Killing off a large number of players isn’t much of a victory when they can be back in 2 to 3 minutes, less time than it took you to kill them. Faster even if they have a keep with a waypoint to spawn to.
Agreed the zones need to be about 50% larger. It should take about 3-4 minutes real time at max run-speed buff between control points.
Example ratios:
Time between any two control points: 3 times the time it takes to resolve a 5 v 5 fight
Time from default respawn locate to nearest control point: 6 times the 5v5 Resolve time.
If we assume 1 minutes to resolve a fight then the distance between any control point should be 3 minutes and 6 minutes from the border keep.
The key in DAOC was the distance from the entrance to any of the keeps was a haul. It made wiping a zerg… relevant. The zones in that sense are too small. Either that or we need to implement rez sickness to pad virtual distance\time.
“No Mercy for the Panda Kids. We don’t want you. We don’t need you.”
My main problem with WvW in guild wars 2, compared to Daoc has to be the zones. Not enough room to roam and mobs are spread out everywhere instead of small camps of them with empty spaces between.
Another problem would be having four different zones, and not one large zone like new frontiers had. Or if they have to stay separate, then the fast speed a player can respawn and return to a battle. Killing off a large number of players isn’t much of a victory when they can be back in 2 to 3 minutes, less time than it took you to kill them. Faster even if they have a keep with a waypoint to spawn to.
Agreed the zones need to be about 50% larger. It should take about 3-4 minutes real time at max run-speed buff between control points.
Example ratios:
Time between any two control points: 3 times the time it takes to resolve a 5 v 5 fight
Time from default respawn locate to nearest control point: 6 times the 5v5 Resolve time.If we assume 1 minutes to resolve a fight then the distance between any control point should be 3 minutes and 6 minutes from the border keep.
The key in DAOC was the distance from the entrance to any of the keeps was a haul. It made wiping a zerg… relevant. The zones in that sense are too small. Either that or we need to implement rez sickness to pad virtual distance\time.
Zone size is a huge issue. Small manning or 5 manning, while possible, is too tight. Wiping a zerg means nothing, they are back in a min, not even enough time to run supplies to repair. Increase the zone sizes 3 to 5 times and i’ll bet a lot of the issues we are seeing would lessen dramatically.
map is too small.. I hope this isn’t due to some technical limitations we didn’t know about… because that’d too too sad for words.
My main problem with WvW in guild wars 2, compared to Daoc has to be the zones. Not enough room to roam and mobs are spread out everywhere instead of small camps of them with empty spaces between.
Another problem would be having four different zones, and not one large zone like new frontiers had. Or if they have to stay separate, then the fast speed a player can respawn and return to a battle. Killing off a large number of players isn’t much of a victory when they can be back in 2 to 3 minutes, less time than it took you to kill them. Faster even if they have a keep with a waypoint to spawn to.
Agreed the zones need to be about 50% larger. It should take about 3-4 minutes real time at max run-speed buff between control points.
Example ratios:
Time between any two control points: 3 times the time it takes to resolve a 5 v 5 fight
Time from default respawn locate to nearest control point: 6 times the 5v5 Resolve time.If we assume 1 minutes to resolve a fight then the distance between any control point should be 3 minutes and 6 minutes from the border keep.
The key in DAOC was the distance from the entrance to any of the keeps was a haul. It made wiping a zerg… relevant. The zones in that sense are too small. Either that or we need to implement rez sickness to pad virtual distance\time.
Zone size is a huge issue. Small manning or 5 manning, while possible, is too tight. Wiping a zerg means nothing, they are back in a min, not even enough time to run supplies to repair. Increase the zone sizes 3 to 5 times and i’ll bet a lot of the issues we are seeing would lessen dramatically.
I’m gonna start a thread, I think we the players can figure this out rather easily.
“No Mercy for the Panda Kids. We don’t want you. We don’t need you.”