Guild Wars 2

This was originally my guild mates nern idea he brought it to my boyfriend then all three of us started talking about it. So this is not all my idea. You all know that in order to have power you have to sacrifice either toughness or vitality somewhere to get precision and ferocity into your build to crit some where. This is not the same with condition damage they can run toughness vitality condition cause damage and be a living tank they don’t have to sacrifice anything to make themselves more deadly. The idea is to have them run precision with condition damage if they want to crit. This makes it so that they have to sacrifice something to be powerful. Now for the criting damage you would not want to run condition damage ferocity and treat it like a for of beserkwrs this would be a bad idea. Because you can have multiple conditions going off at one time and having those all crit for massive damage would be awful. I think the criting should be condition duration so you run condition damage, precision, condition duration of you crit then you get to have that condition duration you have acumilated. If you do not crit then you get the base condition duration of the skill sets why I say use condition duration because it still gives the person that is fighting the condition wielder a chance to cleanse all the conditions.

There is this stat called Soldier which does exactly what you described, sacrifices precision and ferocity for toughness and vitality and has power as the main. Full soldier used to be popular early but now the melee train (specifically guards) use some combination of wanderer, crusader, celestial, minstrel which sacrifices power for them to be the “living tank” with boon duration and healing power. While Dire is effectively condition, toughness vitality, Trailblazer (which is insanely expensive atm) is what is used for epidemic condi reapers for wvw. I really dont think changing Dire (or Trailblazer) stat will fix the “condition meta”. I suppose that in a closed group, 2 resistance spewing mallyx revs can be used now (as it currently has a stun break) to mitigate some of boon stripping but I am not completely sure about it as I am yet to try it. I doubt that the way condition works will be modified the way you described as it will banish all condi builds in pve to oblivion.

And theres also a Vit(highest stat) power toughness for those who play classes that have higher damage quoficients and dont need much power.

I’ve already tried to tell everyone how to fix conditions, but it hasn’t happened.

Drop damage from conditions to about 1/3 of what they are currently. Give conditions the ability to crit and increase their damage on crit based on ferocity. Make them work just like power and add some new stat combinations for condi builds. My dire/rabid condi warrior shouldn’t be dealing more damage than a full zerk warrior does, but it does. How can I have 30k HP and 3.4k armor vs a full zerk warrior having 21k HP and 2.6k armor and still do more damage?

Conditions are broken in generally right now and burning is a big part of that as well.

XTR.9604:

How can I have 30k HP and 3.4k armor vs a full zerk warrior having 21k HP and 2.6k armor and still do more damage?

Because conditions can be completely negated with the right build/group comp.

I’d like to know how my warrior can have 3k armor, completely shrug off conditions/cc’s and hit people for 10k+ just by bumping into them.

Maybe it has something to do with the ridiculous power creep they shoved down our throats when they released HoT.

The idea may be interesting, but there’s already a stat that governs condition duration. Moreover, your point has a major flaw : condition do damage over time, and their efficiency lessens should they be cleansed (or resistance up).

Just imagine it the other way : you just got, let’s say, a zerk rev hammer CoR crit you for 5k HP. And now, you use utility skill #7, and voilà, damage nullified. That makes no sense.

To me, and as I stated in another thread, condi dire and trailblazer are not “meta”. They’re as should be. The issue is power builds don’t have enough access to vitality stat that’d allow them to handle both direct and condi damage.

ThomasC.1056:

The idea may be interesting, but there’s already a stat that governs condition duration. Moreover, your point has a major flaw : condition do damage over time, and their efficiency lessens should they be cleansed (or resistance up).

Just imagine it the other way : you just got, let’s say, a zerk rev hammer CoR crit you for 5k HP. And now, you use utility skill #7, and voilà, damage nullified. That makes no sense.

To me, and as I stated in another thread, condi dire and trailblazer are not “meta”. They’re as should be. The issue is power builds don’t have enough access to vitality stat that’d allow them to handle both direct and condi damage.

Only referencing the the Bolded.
You mean like popping a heal skill??voila damage completely nullified! Bahahaha jokes aside conditions wouldn’t be too bad if they couldn’t do massive spike damage on some classes, if they were solely just DoT then they wouldn’t be an issue but they are not solely DoT when you have classes that can almost instantly pop 12-15 stack of multiple conditions on you in a very short time period that’s no longer DoT. They need to address those cases.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

ThomasC.1056:

The idea may be interesting, but there’s already a stat that governs condition duration. Moreover, your point has a major flaw : condition do damage over time, and their efficiency lessens should they be cleansed (or resistance up).

Just imagine it the other way : you just got, let’s say, a zerk rev hammer CoR crit you for 5k HP. And now, you use utility skill #7, and voilà, damage nullified. That makes no sense.

To me, and as I stated in another thread, condi dire and trailblazer are not “meta”. They’re as should be. The issue is power builds don’t have enough access to vitality stat that’d allow them to handle both direct and condi damage.

Only referencing the the Bolded.
You mean like popping a heal skill??voila damage completely nullified! Bahahaha jokes aside conditions wouldn’t be too bad if they couldn’t do massive spike damage on some classes, if they were solely just DoT then they wouldn’t be an issue but they are not solely DoT when you have classes that can almost instantly pop 12-15 stack of multiple conditions on you in a very short time period that’s no longer DoT. They need to address those cases.

Of course there’re healing skills. And to me, the whole healing stat is underrated. Mostly because fights tend to be too quick to make heal useful. This said, heal restores health however you lost it. It works the same for direct and condi damage, that’s why what you says is irrelevant. A condi cleanse is the bare nullification of incoming damage. This is the reason why condis should take more time to kill and thus, why dire or trailblazer stat makes sense.

Then again, one side of the issue is condis kills too fast, I agree on that point. This comes from the amount of cleanse and the resistance thing. The other side is direct damage is not effective enough. In itself, it works, but I feel like there’re too many ways to mitigate it.

Jim Hunter.6821:

XTR.9604:

How can I have 30k HP and 3.4k armor vs a full zerk warrior having 21k HP and 2.6k armor and still do more damage?

Because conditions can be completely negated with the right build/group comp.

I’d like to know how my warrior can have 3k armor, completely shrug off conditions/cc’s and hit people for 10k+ just by bumping into them.

Maybe it has something to do with the ridiculous power creep they shoved down our throats when they released HoT.

Raw damage can be negated pretty easily too. Tons of blocks and invuln out there. Lets say I drop my condi bomb on someone and they use shield 5 on warrior, they won’t stop my condi damage from ripping them apart (yes I know, warrior has a bunch of condi clear, just using example.) That shield 5 would negate all regular damage unless it is unblockable.

XTR.9604:

Jim Hunter.6821:

XTR.9604:

How can I have 30k HP and 3.4k armor vs a full zerk warrior having 21k HP and 2.6k armor and still do more damage?

Because conditions can be completely negated with the right build/group comp.

I’d like to know how my warrior can have 3k armor, completely shrug off conditions/cc’s and hit people for 10k+ just by bumping into them.

Maybe it has something to do with the ridiculous power creep they shoved down our throats when they released HoT.

Raw damage can be negated pretty easily too. Tons of blocks and invuln out there. Lets say I drop my condi bomb on someone and they use shield 5 on warrior, they won’t stop my condi damage from ripping them apart (yes I know, warrior has a bunch of condi clear, just using example.) That shield 5 would negate all regular damage unless it is unblockable.

Ummmmmm wtf are you talking about? Using a condi build doesn’t suddenly make all of your attacks unblockable. Blocking might not stop the condi’s already on them from ticking but it sure as hell will block their application.

Jim Hunter.6821:

XTR.9604:

Jim Hunter.6821:

XTR.9604:

How can I have 30k HP and 3.4k armor vs a full zerk warrior having 21k HP and 2.6k armor and still do more damage?

Because conditions can be completely negated with the right build/group comp.

I’d like to know how my warrior can have 3k armor, completely shrug off conditions/cc’s and hit people for 10k+ just by bumping into them.

Maybe it has something to do with the ridiculous power creep they shoved down our throats when they released HoT.

Raw damage can be negated pretty easily too. Tons of blocks and invuln out there. Lets say I drop my condi bomb on someone and they use shield 5 on warrior, they won’t stop my condi damage from ripping them apart (yes I know, warrior has a bunch of condi clear, just using example.) That shield 5 would negate all regular damage unless it is unblockable.

Ummmmmm wtf are you talking about? Using a condi build doesn’t suddenly make all of your attacks unblockable. Blocking might not stop the condi’s already on them from ticking but it sure as hell will block their application.

That is what I was saying, it won’t stop the conditions that are on you lol.. I wasn’t saying it wouldn’t block the skill that caused the conditions, because obviously it will. What I am saying is that against a power build, they take no damage during that time they’re blocking, during a condi build, they’re still taking the damage that was applied pre-block while blocking.

Just balance the condition damage, scale and modifiers numbers (not the gear), there’s no need to make a whole new system that will just cause more balance more problems.

Just imagine the lag as the server tries to calculate condition crits.

XTR.9604:

Jim Hunter.6821:

XTR.9604:

Jim Hunter.6821:

XTR.9604:

How can I have 30k HP and 3.4k armor vs a full zerk warrior having 21k HP and 2.6k armor and still do more damage?

Because conditions can be completely negated with the right build/group comp.

I’d like to know how my warrior can have 3k armor, completely shrug off conditions/cc’s and hit people for 10k+ just by bumping into them.

Maybe it has something to do with the ridiculous power creep they shoved down our throats when they released HoT.

Raw damage can be negated pretty easily too. Tons of blocks and invuln out there. Lets say I drop my condi bomb on someone and they use shield 5 on warrior, they won’t stop my condi damage from ripping them apart (yes I know, warrior has a bunch of condi clear, just using example.) That shield 5 would negate all regular damage unless it is unblockable.

Ummmmmm wtf are you talking about? Using a condi build doesn’t suddenly make all of your attacks unblockable. Blocking might not stop the condi’s already on them from ticking but it sure as hell will block their application.

That is what I was saying, it won’t stop the conditions that are on you lol.. I wasn’t saying it wouldn’t block the skill that caused the conditions, because obviously it will. What I am saying is that against a power build, they take no damage during that time they’re blocking, during a condi build, they’re still taking the damage that was applied pre-block while blocking.

yeah….. because they already landed the hit…..

That’s kind of the whole point of dot damage…… I mean…. do you wait until after a warrior lands decapitate before blocking and then wonder why you ate 10k+ ?

Blocks, blinds, invuln, etc. still all work when fighting condi builds if you use them at the appropriate time. This is exactly like all those terribad thieves that would complain about channeled skills and aoe skills still hitting them when they popped into stealth.

I think they should introduce some form of “condition resistance” as a new stat (not the boon resistance) which provides a stackable but diminishing percentage of condition resistance (damage, not duration). This is so as to mirror toughness which is to negate power damage.

Jim Hunter.6821:

XTR.9604:

How can I have 30k HP and 3.4k armor vs a full zerk warrior having 21k HP and 2.6k armor and still do more damage?

Because conditions can be completely negated with the right build/group comp.

I’d like to know how my warrior can have 3k armor, completely shrug off conditions/cc’s and hit people for 10k+ just by bumping into them.

Maybe it has something to do with the ridiculous power creep they shoved down our throats when they released HoT.

I’ve been up against a lot of warriors and I know how tough they are. But, I’ve never had one, ever, hit me for 10k or even close to it. I’ve never seen them “shrug” off conditions.

Granted, I could be encountering a lot of noobs, but they generally run power builds and rely/depend heavily on their blocks, evades, invuls and resistances while they try to power me down.

In the end, what saves them really is their speed and ability to disengage.

But, I have been hit dang hard by a theif. The hardest hit or most damage I’ve ever received was from a theif using vault skill.

Electra.7530:

Jim Hunter.6821:

XTR.9604:

How can I have 30k HP and 3.4k armor vs a full zerk warrior having 21k HP and 2.6k armor and still do more damage?

Because conditions can be completely negated with the right build/group comp.

I’d like to know how my warrior can have 3k armor, completely shrug off conditions/cc’s and hit people for 10k+ just by bumping into them.

Maybe it has something to do with the ridiculous power creep they shoved down our throats when they released HoT.

I’ve been up against a lot of warriors and I know how tough they are. But, I’ve never had one, ever, hit me for 10k or even close to it. I’ve never seen them “shrug” off conditions.

Granted, I could be encountering a lot of noobs, but they generally run power builds and rely/depend heavily on their blocks, evades, invuls and resistances while they try to power me down.

In the end, what saves them really is their speed and ability to disengage.

But, I have been hit dang hard by a theif. The hardest hit or most damage I’ve ever received was from a theif using vault skill.

Yeah you must be fighting some pretty terrible players. Besides the ridiculous amount of resistance uptime, they can keep themselves clear with cleansing ire, brawlers recovery, and savage instinct if they really want to go over the top.

If they have a decent amount of boon duration they can just rotate between their blocks, resistance, and cleanses + regen to fully ignore condi players.

xikira.3264:

This was originally my guild mates nern idea he brought it to my boyfriend then all three of us started talking about it. So this is not all my idea. You all know that in order to have power you have to sacrifice either toughness or vitality somewhere to get precision and ferocity into your build to crit some where. This is not the same with condition damage they can run toughness vitality condition cause damage and be a living tank they don’t have to sacrifice anything to make themselves more deadly. The idea is to have them run precision with condition damage if they want to crit. This makes it so that they have to sacrifice something to be powerful. Now for the criting damage you would not want to run condition damage ferocity and treat it like a for of beserkwrs this would be a bad idea. Because you can have multiple conditions going off at one time and having those all crit for massive damage would be awful. I think the criting should be condition duration so you run condition damage, precision, condition duration of you crit then you get to have that condition duration you have acumilated. If you do not crit then you get the base condition duration of the skill sets why I say use condition duration because it still gives the person that is fighting the condition wielder a chance to cleanse all the conditions.

I dont see this at all. Personally when I run condi, I run viper / trailblazer, roughly about 2/3 viper, 1/3 traiblazer, except some trinket slots and such which are too hard to get or not available in those stats, those slots I tend to go sinister / carrion.

Armor is my next to last stat, usually end up around 2400-2500 range. So dire armor is not where its at, its vitality + protection boon that make condi tough. And heres the thing, that protection, most of the times comes from team mates, my condi traits negate any protection applications most of the time. So the trade offs are there, it is not as you say.

Also to give you some perspective, for example on my necro, in my old, old dire and carrion gear on scepter 2 the base duration is 10 seconds and staff 2 is 8 seconds. Whereas with trailblazer, traits, runes, foods, etc. etc. It gets bumped into 30 secs and 15 secs respectively. To get the 30 secs, I have to have several traits + runes + foods. So forget about me running Runes of Durability (which BTW is an actual and true meta), gear with lots of armor etc. I have lower end armor, mid range health, mid range crit rate, low power. Rest of my tankiness comes from my team mates, which incidentally, are power builds.

To be fully effective I require crit + expertise, lots of it, or there is no way for me to actually stack condis as you say even when using things such as plague signet, corrupt boon etc. They just fall off too fast, dont even need to be cleansed. My opponents usually just LOS me and heal. You have to remember without crit, we can’t stack those stacks you refer to because it takes way too long and by time we get the full stacks fight is long over one way or the other.

On the flip side of it, I run into quite a few people that eat whole maxxed out duration of my scepter bleed, all 30 secs. They LOS me as well but I have them targeted and see their health ticking down. They dont run even a single cleanse, then come here and complain.

On condition meta, what condition meta ? My 2 guilds have entirely switched to power + sustain. Maybe it was a roaming meta like 2 years ago or just before HOT came out and you had all those perplex mesmers running around and engis popping 20k pistol 4 on you, but those days are long, long gone. Things of this nature are far sub-par today and have been for a long while. They still do OK against opponents choosing not to cleanse, but that is a niche role and they do just OK, not anywhere near good or very good.

Condi today is nearly a supplement, mostly used for the soft CCs which are all cleansable. There are some exceptions here and there, for example when trex has their necro condi bumping day etc. but we got around that with ease, took like 3 of us to switch couple traits and utilities and that was that for them.

On the entire flipside of it, my DH and Scrapper are both power based and far better then anything condi. I don’t have to stack anything, I get soooooo many more bags its not even remotely funny, and while on DH in small scale I have some issues because I run large group builds, I tend to eat anything condi for breakfast when on my scrapper. Literally can play one handed vs condi reapers, require 2 hands for thieves and mesmers but still pretty easy.

It all comes down to player choices, naturally, in team vs team, it comes down to team choices, how aggressive or defensive you want to play etc.

Jim Hunter.6821:

yeah….. because they already landed the hit…..

That’s kind of the whole point of dot damage…… I mean…. do you wait until after a warrior lands decapitate before blocking and then wonder why you ate 10k+ ?

Blocks, blinds, invuln, etc. still all work when fighting condi builds if you use them at the appropriate time. This is exactly like all those terribad thieves that would complain about channeled skills and aoe skills still hitting them when they popped into stealth.

I’m not disagreeing that the hit was already landed and that it is the point of dot damage. While my conditions can be cleared, I can also stack up 10k burn ticks in a lot of situations on my warrior that will tick multiple times which is going to do more than your one decapitate. The conversation is about how broken conditions are and it is a true statement. Go watch some of my videos of me playing condi warrior and tell me more about how condi isn’t insanely broken.

Electra.7530:

I’ve been up against a lot of warriors and I know how tough they are. But, I’ve never had one, ever, hit me for 10k or even close to it. I’ve never seen them “shrug” off conditions.

Granted, I could be encountering a lot of noobs, but they generally run power builds and rely/depend heavily on their blocks, evades, invuls and resistances while they try to power me down.

In the end, what saves them really is their speed and ability to disengage.

But, I have been hit dang hard by a theif. The hardest hit or most damage I’ve ever received was from a theif using vault skill.

You’d find several times in my stream videos of me landing 10k+ burn ticks on people in fights on my warrior. I have old videos from back in the day when I played power warrior pre-HoT where I was doing 10k+ eviscerates even. You’re likely building a little tankier with your toughness which will stop you from being hit for 10k by power warrior builds. I think the biggest hit I’ve seen anyone land on my warrior was 5k because it has 3.4k armor lol..

Also, just as a side note, toughness should be a factor against conditions. It shouldn’t just be about the amount of HP someone has.

No, toughness should not be a factor in condition damage taken. All this does is shift the meta more to heavy armor classes.

Cleanses and resistance both work to mitigate already existing conditions. Vitality allows more staying power.

Resistance and cleanses do nothing against power builds.

Already delivered raw damage has nothing to mitigate it. The damage mitigation is delivered before it applied.

What too many seem to want is to turn conditions into something closer to raw damage so they need less in the way of cleanses and can rely on the passive, always there armor for protection.

Make condition damage mitigated with armor and toughness. Problem solved.

XTR.9604:

Jim Hunter.6821:

yeah….. because they already landed the hit…..

That’s kind of the whole point of dot damage…… I mean…. do you wait until after a warrior lands decapitate before blocking and then wonder why you ate 10k+ ?

Blocks, blinds, invuln, etc. still all work when fighting condi builds if you use them at the appropriate time. This is exactly like all those terribad thieves that would complain about channeled skills and aoe skills still hitting them when they popped into stealth.

I’m not disagreeing that the hit was already landed and that it is the point of dot damage. While my conditions can be cleared, I can also stack up 10k burn ticks in a lot of situations on my warrior that will tick multiple times which is going to do more than your one decapitate. The conversation is about how broken conditions are and it is a true statement. Go watch some of my videos of me playing condi warrior and tell me more about how condi isn’t insanely broken.

It only ticks multiple times if players allow it to and allow you to put the stacks on them in the first place.
Everything looks broken if the player you are fighting doesn’t bring the proper setup to defend themselves. Just look at any pure PvE player wondering into WvW for the first time.

babazhook.6805:

No, toughness should not be a factor in condition damage taken. All this does is shift the meta more to heavy armor classes.

Cleanses and resistance both work to mitigate already existing conditions. Vitality allows more staying power.

Resistance and cleanses do nothing against power builds.

Already delivered raw damage has nothing to mitigate it. The damage mitigation is delivered before it applied.

What too many seem to want is to turn conditions into something closer to raw damage so they need less in the way of cleanses and can rely on the passive, always there armor for protection.

Condition damage and raw damage builds should be on par with each other. One should not be significantly stronger than the other. As it currently stands, some condition classes are out of balance by a lot. Necro and warrior can go full dire and have insane tankability and do more damage than they would if they were power builds. Burn Guardians are another example, but less harmful than the necro and warrior. I’ve stacked up 15k burn ticks with a burn guardian before, but it is easy to cleanse since Guardians don’t have access to much in the way of conditions. But you’ll never see a power guardian drop 15k damage on an enemy that is in full PTV armor like you will a burn guardian.

Toughness/Armor SHOULD be a factor for sure, without a doubt. The fact that I can walk up and burst down someone in full PTV and that they can do no damage to me back on my dire/rabid warrior is unbalanced.

Everything can be shortened down to a single line:

Delete dire and trailblazer.

Boom 90% of all condi issues solved. Are there still OP conditions? Sure. Just like there are still seriously OP power builds, they could use tweaks to damages and duration. But at least that takes care of the fact you should never ever have max tankiness with max damage of respective type. Having dire/trailblazer is like having celestial with all stats maxed except condi. It’s stupid. Anet already fixed it in sPvP but so far has outright refused to even try to balance WvW.

Toughness/Armor SHOULD be a factor for sure, without a doubt. The fact that I can walk up and burst down someone in full PTV and that they can do no damage to me back on my dire/rabid warrior is unbalanced.

Dire is 50% of your problem. The insane healing from adrenal health and healing signet is the other 50%.

Jim Hunter.6821:

XTR.9604:

Jim Hunter.6821:

yeah….. because they already landed the hit…..

That’s kind of the whole point of dot damage…… I mean…. do you wait until after a warrior lands decapitate before blocking and then wonder why you ate 10k+ ?

Blocks, blinds, invuln, etc. still all work when fighting condi builds if you use them at the appropriate time. This is exactly like all those terribad thieves that would complain about channeled skills and aoe skills still hitting them when they popped into stealth.

I’m not disagreeing that the hit was already landed and that it is the point of dot damage. While my conditions can be cleared, I can also stack up 10k burn ticks in a lot of situations on my warrior that will tick multiple times which is going to do more than your one decapitate. The conversation is about how broken conditions are and it is a true statement. Go watch some of my videos of me playing condi warrior and tell me more about how condi isn’t insanely broken.

It only ticks multiple times if players allow it to and allow you to put the stacks on them in the first place.
Everything looks broken if the player you are fighting doesn’t bring the proper setup to defend themselves. Just look at any pure PvE player wondering into WvW for the first time.

To the same argument, I am good enough at the game to not drop every bit of my damage on someone for them to instantly cleanse. I will usually drop one bomb on them, let them blow their cleanse then drop my next bomb which is a bigger bomb and lock them up, then I drop my burn combo on them. By the time you waste your cleanse on the first two smaller bombs that were enough to kill you, I’m throwing on a much bigger bomb lol..

Warrior is great at clearing conditions, so is Guardian, but most of the rest of the classes can’t clear them as fast as what a Guardian or Warrior would and it ends up being the death of them more often than not.

Seems to be a strange concept, but if you throw a good player on a condi build, they’ll normally beat great players on power builds. If you throw a great player on a condi build, they can be unstoppable in most fights even when outnumbered. My condi warrior shines its brightest when I am outnumbered because a lot of my condi burst is AOE. I have many videos of 2v1s and some 3v1s on my condi warrior that prove that lol. And sure, they’re probably just all bad players. I imagine that every person I fight is a bad player because it is incomprehensible to think that someone could actually be good at this game.

I dont see much of a condi meta out there. If it’s really a problem the only classes that need to be addressed are condi Mesmer and ghost Thief (nerf Inspiration and condi shatter traits for Mesmer and rework Thief traps to be mainly utility/cc and not damage). If you bring condi-cleanse you can deal with all the other condi builds/classes out there.

There is alot of back and forth that can be done regarding conditions. For as many problems there are as many solutions ingame already.

This might sound crazy but my solution at the moment would be,

High stacked conditions sink to bottom of condition stack and rework condition removals so that they remove types of conditions similar to the movement imparing ones do already,

Mending now removes 1 high stack of a damage condition, 1 movement impairing, both fear/taunt or 1 next in order.

Wilderness knowledge trait now removes 1 high stack of a damaging condition, 1 impairing condition (or next in order).

Consume conditions heals for each unique condition and also a small amount per instance of each.

Renewing wave, 1 high stack, fear&taunt or 1 movement impairing, 1next in order

For single condition removals some I’d have remove highest stack, movement imparing, utility or next in order.

Spiteful renewal, remove 1 condition:next in order

Restorative illusions 5sec ICD, 1shatter:utility condition, 2shatter: +movement impairing, 3shatter: +high stack, 4shatter: +next in order

Rune of the soldier, upto 2 movement impairing or 1 next in order

Escapist’s absolution, remove upto 2 utility conditions or 1 next in order

There just needs to be more appropriate balance between condition stacking/covering and condition removal/targeted removal.

Right now its,
1,2,3,all,movement impairing,fear/taunt

Could be,
High stack,movement imparing,utility,fear/taunt,next in order,all
In various quantity with “or” clauses in some instances.

XTR.9604:

Jim Hunter.6821:

XTR.9604:

Jim Hunter.6821:

yeah….. because they already landed the hit…..

That’s kind of the whole point of dot damage…… I mean…. do you wait until after a warrior lands decapitate before blocking and then wonder why you ate 10k+ ?

Blocks, blinds, invuln, etc. still all work when fighting condi builds if you use them at the appropriate time. This is exactly like all those terribad thieves that would complain about channeled skills and aoe skills still hitting them when they popped into stealth.

I’m not disagreeing that the hit was already landed and that it is the point of dot damage. While my conditions can be cleared, I can also stack up 10k burn ticks in a lot of situations on my warrior that will tick multiple times which is going to do more than your one decapitate. The conversation is about how broken conditions are and it is a true statement. Go watch some of my videos of me playing condi warrior and tell me more about how condi isn’t insanely broken.

It only ticks multiple times if players allow it to and allow you to put the stacks on them in the first place.
Everything looks broken if the player you are fighting doesn’t bring the proper setup to defend themselves. Just look at any pure PvE player wondering into WvW for the first time.

To the same argument, I am good enough at the game to not drop every bit of my damage on someone for them to instantly cleanse. I will usually drop one bomb on them, let them blow their cleanse then drop my next bomb which is a bigger bomb and lock them up, then I drop my burn combo on them. By the time you waste your cleanse on the first two smaller bombs that were enough to kill you, I’m throwing on a much bigger bomb lol..

Warrior is great at clearing conditions, so is Guardian, but most of the rest of the classes can’t clear them as fast as what a Guardian or Warrior would and it ends up being the death of them more often than not.

Seems to be a strange concept, but if you throw a good player on a condi build, they’ll normally beat great players on power builds. If you throw a great player on a condi build, they can be unstoppable in most fights even when outnumbered. My condi warrior shines its brightest when I am outnumbered because a lot of my condi burst is AOE. I have many videos of 2v1s and some 3v1s on my condi warrior that prove that lol. And sure, they’re probably just all bad players. I imagine that every person I fight is a bad player because it is incomprehensible to think that someone could actually be good at this game.

Your argument is based on the assumption that every one of your condi bombs will land, which means yes, those are bad players.
Good players don’t eat every hit you throw out and blow all their cooldowns after the fact just so you can bomb them again, but most of the good players have moved on or put in a lot less hours because anet ruined the game.

roamzero.9486:

I dont see much of a condi meta out there. If it’s really a problem the only classes that need to be addressed are condi Mesmer and ghost Thief (nerf Inspiration and condi shatter traits for Mesmer and rework Thief traps to be mainly utility/cc and not damage). If you bring condi-cleanse you can deal with all the other condi builds/classes out there.

Go watch the videos here: http://xtremetheory.com/wvw-roaming-condi-warrior/

This is me playing on my condi warrior. Tell me that does not need a massive nurf along with condi mesmer and ghost thief after you’ve watched and seen what that build does..

I play it because it is funny and I want to bring attention to it. I desperately want ANET to see and understand what this build and several other condition builds are capable of in the hands of a player who knows how to play the game.. It is far too strong, much stronger than any power build can be.

roamzero.9486:

I dont see much of a condi meta out there. If it’s really a problem the only classes that need to be addressed are condi Mesmer and ghost Thief (nerf Inspiration and condi shatter traits for Mesmer and rework Thief traps to be mainly utility/cc and not damage). If you bring condi-cleanse you can deal with all the other condi builds/classes out there.

This is 100% the fault of dire/trailblazers and the fact both these classes dont need any precision to apply condi. The other gears have flaws – full glass cannon, no vitality, no toughness, no precision. Pick your poision. Any hybrid in between make sacrifices one way or another.

To XTR, the reason your condi warrior remain strong is still not the condi in itself – it’s the warriors native tankiness and super healing. It’s just as OP on power.

Dawdler.8521:

roamzero.9486:

I dont see much of a condi meta out there. If it’s really a problem the only classes that need to be addressed are condi Mesmer and ghost Thief (nerf Inspiration and condi shatter traits for Mesmer and rework Thief traps to be mainly utility/cc and not damage). If you bring condi-cleanse you can deal with all the other condi builds/classes out there.

This is 100% the fault of dire/trailblazers and the fact both these classes dont need any precision to apply condi. The other gears have flaws – full glass cannon, no vitality, no toughness, no precision. Pick your poision. Any hybrid in between make sacrifices one way or another.

Yay condi longbow!

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vNMQJATWjEqCVqZ1sWy6Xxl1yCXrr1ihgxEAGdNA4u6YNt28uSdtgUkGyVCD-TlTFABLpkCgnQQyXAh10hco6P0pJIhDBA1HQg+UCWlSFGOQA1qhot9HUSZQAAEgduz05Ozm3cn784Fv4Fv4FP7cn7cn7cnlC4ulVA-w

Precision/condition dmg based ;-)

Dawdler.8521:

roamzero.9486:

I dont see much of a condi meta out there. If it’s really a problem the only classes that need to be addressed are condi Mesmer and ghost Thief (nerf Inspiration and condi shatter traits for Mesmer and rework Thief traps to be mainly utility/cc and not damage). If you bring condi-cleanse you can deal with all the other condi builds/classes out there.

This is 100% the fault of dire/trailblazers and the fact both these classes dont need any precision to apply condi. The other gears have flaws – full glass cannon, no vitality, no toughness, no precision. Pick your poision. Any hybrid in between make sacrifices one way or another.

To XTR, the reason your condi warrior remain strong is still not the condi in itself – it’s the warriors native tankiness and super healing. It’s just as OP on power.

It is stronger than the power build. Did you miss the part where I am laying down 10k burn ticks and ~4k confusion and ~2.5k bleed ticks AOE? I can stack all of that easily within 3 seconds. I can 2 shot a lot of people as a condi build – tell me where that is not broken.

XTR.9604:

Dawdler.8521:

roamzero.9486:

I dont see much of a condi meta out there. If it’s really a problem the only classes that need to be addressed are condi Mesmer and ghost Thief (nerf Inspiration and condi shatter traits for Mesmer and rework Thief traps to be mainly utility/cc and not damage). If you bring condi-cleanse you can deal with all the other condi builds/classes out there.

This is 100% the fault of dire/trailblazers and the fact both these classes dont need any precision to apply condi. The other gears have flaws – full glass cannon, no vitality, no toughness, no precision. Pick your poision. Any hybrid in between make sacrifices one way or another.

To XTR, the reason your condi warrior remain strong is still not the condi in itself – it’s the warriors native tankiness and super healing. It’s just as OP on power.

It is stronger than the power build. Did you miss the part where I am laying down 10k burn ticks and ~4k confusion and ~2.5k bleed ticks AOE? I can stack all of that easily within 3 seconds. I can 2 shot a lot of people as a condi build – tell me where that is not broken.

So you can two shot another 3.5K armor warrior that regens more HP than conditions do damage? Sure it’s strong. But it’s still your build that carry you, not the condi. You know what you are doing and it’s not exactly random chance that made you pick defense and healing signet now, is it?

But hey any class can be OP on youtube.

Here I can even prove that my scrapper can down a dragonhunter from 100 to 0 in 3 seconds flat (and accidentally kill a herald at the same time, I didnt even mean to I swear!): https://youtu.be/0aYSHWJlmWM

Or it just prove that some people are blind fools, but whatever…

XTR.9604:

Dawdler.8521:

roamzero.9486:

I dont see much of a condi meta out there. If it’s really a problem the only classes that need to be addressed are condi Mesmer and ghost Thief (nerf Inspiration and condi shatter traits for Mesmer and rework Thief traps to be mainly utility/cc and not damage). If you bring condi-cleanse you can deal with all the other condi builds/classes out there.

This is 100% the fault of dire/trailblazers and the fact both these classes dont need any precision to apply condi. The other gears have flaws – full glass cannon, no vitality, no toughness, no precision. Pick your poision. Any hybrid in between make sacrifices one way or another.

To XTR, the reason your condi warrior remain strong is still not the condi in itself – it’s the warriors native tankiness and super healing. It’s just as OP on power.

It is stronger than the power build. Did you miss the part where I am laying down 10k burn ticks and ~4k confusion and ~2.5k bleed ticks AOE? I can stack all of that easily within 3 seconds. I can 2 shot a lot of people as a condi build – tell me where that is not broken.

20 stacks of burn
20 stacks of confusion
15 stacks of bleed
aoe in 3 seconds

Ya I just don’t see that happening.
I watched a vid where you bombed 3 afk people and didn’t hit 25% of those numbers lol.

Do know that when you place conditions on tower lords and such that the condition number floaters are not accurate I don’t think. Ive seen 10k bleeds on a hybrid build with less than 40stacks of bleed @ ~100dmg/tic.

lmao @ Ranger dies in 11sec vid,
except the part its an engineer,

rip pvp in wvw…
people cant even identify classes anymore lol

While I don’t think armour/toughness should affect condi damage at all, (I like that there are two different types of damage that have different counters) if this is still a problem that needs to be solved, one interesting way could be if high precision was needed for high duration conditions, for example if they reduce all base durations of damaging conditions by one third, but crits cause a condition applied by that attack to have 50% longer base duration.
So if an attack currently applies a 6s bleed, after this change a normal hit from it would only apply a 4s bleed, but scoring a crit with the attack would return the base duration to equal the current 6s. It’d mean that people still could run dire/trailblazer stats in wvw for max tankiness if they like, but their condi stacking potential would be a good bit lower than someone with the two offensive stats.

However, any change like this would need to happen alongside changes like reducing resistance boon duration stacking for those classes with access to it, more equal access to resistance and condi clears across classes (while I like that each profession has inbuilt strengths and weaknesses, I think that they should still be given the tools to overcome those weaknesses, just at a higher opportunity cost than other professions who don’t have that weakness).

In saying all that though, if the main problem is from a small few builds hyper-focused into these things, then maybe just tweaking these specific builds would actually be the answer, and not tarring every condi build with the same brush.

Either way, making toughness even more effective of a tank stat is a terrible “solution” to the problem “condi builds are too tanky for the damage they can dish out”.

Justine.6351:

lmao @ Ranger dies in 11sec vid,
except the part its an engineer,

rip pvp in wvw…
people cant even identify classes anymore lol

lol rip. I wasn’t paying attention when highlighting apparently. Fixed it!

Also, I don’t watch the condition floaters either because I also know they’re wrong some times. I’ve seen 10k+ burn ticks in my damage log.

Dire is not an issue nor is trailblazers. I have no problem taking out people in dire on power builds.

Power builds can build for just as much toughness as a dire build if they wish.

Power builds can build for just as much vitality if they wish.

They do not do this NOT because they can not inflict damage without doing so . They sacrifice toughness and vitality to do more damage. That is it. If toughness/vitality were that big a deal power users would all be in soldiers. They CHOOSE to do more damage because more damage faster tends to win.

Condition builds can not push their damage up by much by sacrificing Vitality and Toughness.

This is NOT “Condition users only have to take one stat to inflict damage” It is “It really not worth it for condition users to do so”. It is worth it for power users to do so , thus the advantage remains with power because they can have this flexibility.

I can get 6k bounds , 5k PIS and unloads for 12k against light armor. No matter the armor faced by a condition build the damage will not go up. Suggesting a condition build not be allowed to have the toughness/vitality of dire means I on my power build can tear them apart even faster. Their conditions would not do anything before they are dead.

I can get 10k heartseekers using power against light armored foes. No matter the armor of the enemy a condition build damage does not go up.

And yes I have seen people do 10K damage including warriors against people in 3k plus armor.

If this game should get ever again somewhere near to a balanced state they need to do alot more, than their typical Skill/Trait Number changes and just some number changes on Ciditions….

They need to:

1) Redesign the Base Health System and adjust it finally to the Game. The game still uses the absolute outdated Base Health System of 2012, which uses a ridiculous 3 Class type System to split the Base Healths up into just 3 unfitting Stereo Type Models that were designed around a game State, where tons of Skill/Trait System Changes didn’t exist, where no Elite Specs were intended to exist and where no Condition System Change was to be considered to be part of at all …
The lowest Base Health that any class in GW2 should have needs to be finally increased from 11k up to 15k as better new Low Standard to balance that system for the 2016 Game State of GW2

2) Redesign the whole Condition and Boon System. The Game has way too much Conditions and Boons. 11 Boons, 14 Conditions.
Should get reduced to like maximum 8 Boons and 8 Conditions.

The only Boons that are realy needed and should exist are:

• Might
• Protection
• Regeneration
• Stability
• Fury
• Swiftness
• Resistance
• Quickness

Everything else that got not listed up, should get redesigned/baselined into other mechanics into the game somehow or merged into the remaining 8 Boons where possible

Same with Conditions, only these 8 Conditions should remain to exist.

• Poison (merged Weakness into it, damages therefore not anymore)
• Burning (spreads now over like GW1 Disease)
• Vulnerability (New Stack Limit of 15 now)
• Confusion (nerfed back to its previous efficiency, but removes now Friendly Fire, letting targets AoEs damage now also their allies partwise)
• Cripple (merged Torment into it)
• Blind (reduced Hit reduction, merged Immobilization, because when you get blinded, you get shocked and stop moving for some seconds, because you suddenly see nothign anymore and lose your orientation where you are, isn’t automatically removed anymore by just swinging the weapon around and hitting something)
• Fear
• Slow (Merged Chill into it)

Due to more conditions existing, than Boons, its clear, that some merges here are neccessary, where effect can’t be integrated into other game mechanics.
Reducing the total amount of boons and Conditions to 8 per side would massively help in Balancing the whole game and its Combat System.

This reduction will also help alot the Game performance to become better = lesser lags, cause the game has now to calculate alot lesser things every second.

These 2 steps would be already a huge step into the right direction for now

Orpheal : thanks about your post. I also had the idea of a condi revamp (+ boon and CC’s too) but never really had the courage to write it down. Now you gave me the incentive, even if I imagined more conditions than you did. You can find it here.

Condi is centered around all or nothing which makes it virtually impossible to balance. They got power pretty much perfect. Routes through armor so it can mitigated defensively and generally requires a trade off between bunker and damage.

If I had my way at the algorithms, toughness (not armor) would reduce condi duration. Resistance would reduce condi damage by a percentage. Neither would have an effect on mobility conditions which I would reclassify as impairments along with stuns. There would be no damaging condi removal skills/traits and I would rebalance those that exist.

Condi should be a damage over time system with defensively minded players able to reduce but not eliminate its effects much like power does currently.

razzor.2716:

There is this stat called Soldier which does exactly what you described, sacrifices precision and ferocity for toughness and vitality and has power as the main. Full soldier used to be popular early but now the melee train (specifically guards) use some combination of wanderer, crusader, celestial, minstrel which sacrifices power for them to be the “living tank” with boon duration and healing power. While Dire is effectively condition, toughness vitality, Trailblazer (which is insanely expensive atm) is what is used for epidemic condi reapers for wvw. I really dont think changing Dire (or Trailblazer) stat will fix the “condition meta”. I suppose that in a closed group, 2 resistance spewing mallyx revs can be used now (as it currently has a stun break) to mitigate some of boon stripping but I am not completely sure about it as I am yet to try it. I doubt that the way condition works will be modified the way you described as it will banish all condi builds in pve to oblivion.

For real power dmg you need cirt dmg and crit chase ontop of power condi only needs condi dmg and maybe condi duration (even though duration not as important when fighting a big group all about getting that 1-2 ticks of dmg as high as you can) but you can stack a lot of def on condi classes where power dmg you cant. The game is lacking the all in power attks with out crits.

Just do a side by side for ptv vs ctv. One is pure bunker not going to do a lot of dmg but the armor is for tanking (ptv) the other (ctv) are builds that can kill ppl in a blink of an eye and being super tankly. If a front line war or gurd could use condis dmg you would see ppl use ctv armor well over ptv. Just images that type of game if say a hammer war had a burn confusion and bleed on there hammer attks and gurd has many burns on there staff / hammers who would ever need to use power would be comply gone from the game.

Jski.6180:

For real power dmg you need cirt dmg and crit chase ontop of power condi only needs condi dmg and maybe condi duration (even though duration not as important when fighting a big group all about getting that 1-2 ticks of dmg as high as you can) but you can stack a lot of def on condi classes where power dmg you cant. The game is lacking the all in power attks with out crits.

Just do a side by side for ptv vs ctv. One is pure bunker not going to do a lot of dmg but the armor is for tanking (ptv) the other (ctv) are builds that can kill ppl in a blink of an eye and being super tankly. If a front line war or gurd could use condis dmg you would see ppl use ctv armor well over ptv. Just images that type of game if say a hammer war had a burn confusion and bleed on there hammer attks and gurd has many burns on there staff / hammers who would ever need to use power would be comply gone from the game.

This is true to a certain extent however full Berserker is rarely used because most of the time, it makes sense to sacrifice some amount of crit chance and crit damage for Vitality as maximizing damage potential isnt the goal in WvW unlike PVE. For example, a full marauder thief will have 17k+ HP with decent crit chance and over 200% crit damage. Its obviously true that CTV does more damage than PTV but we have to see that condi damage has lot of shortcomings like easily being cleansed,converted,resistance,etc and their main damage happens over some duration (and not burst). Outright forcing people to build Condi damage, duration, precision, ferocity will destroy all types of condi builds as unlike PVE, not putting stats to toughness and vitality is simply not an option for most of the classes, epsecially mesmers and necros.

The really broken thing (and probably the only one) related to condi is epidemic atm. One can stack huge amount of condi on say a Lord during a tower fight and when the defenders push in epidemics has the potential to wipe the entire melee train in an instant. Same can be done for enemy downstate which is much more worse during an organised group fight especially when resistance can be stripped.

Have “Protection” affect condition damage.

Done.

GROMIT.7829:

Have “Protection” affect condition damage.

Done.

33% decrease in damage and duration for poision, bleeding, burning, torment, confusion
66% effectiveness for all other conditions (just like 10% effectiveness of these on targets with defiance)

razzor.2716:

GROMIT.7829:

Have “Protection” affect condition damage.

Done.

33% decrease in damage and duration for poision, bleeding, burning, torment, confusion
66% effectiveness for all other conditions (just like 10% effectiveness of these on targets with defiance)

Or force players do some condi cleanse training before they can go WvW.

Junkpile.7439:

razzor.2716:

GROMIT.7829:

Have “Protection” affect condition damage.

Done.

33% decrease in damage and duration for poision, bleeding, burning, torment, confusion
66% effectiveness for all other conditions (just like 10% effectiveness of these on targets with defiance)

Or force players do some condi cleanse training before they can go WvW.

Are you aware of a class called necro which has a variety of boon corrupting skills which corrupts boons faster than one can cleanse ?

razzor.2716:

Junkpile.7439:

razzor.2716:

GROMIT.7829:

Have “Protection” affect condition damage.

Done.

33% decrease in damage and duration for poision, bleeding, burning, torment, confusion
66% effectiveness for all other conditions (just like 10% effectiveness of these on targets with defiance)

Or force players do some condi cleanse training before they can go WvW.

Are you aware of a class called necro which has a variety of boon corrupting skills which corrupts boons faster than one can cleanse ?

I don’t use boons when i fight against necro. That would be just stupid. And need to remember that dodge have much shorter cool down than necros boon corrupt skills.

What condition meta? The Epi Necros in zergs, condi bunk Chronos and ghost Thieves in roaming?

Those 3 builds constitute a meta now?

Hate to burst your bubble but condition builds are a niche in WvW. OP and 90% of the other people making complaints are probably just pugs falling behind their zergs getting picked off by roamers and are unable to deal with the conditions because they’re running a zerging build that rely heavily on teammate support.

Power and bunker is the meta, not condition. Two professions are over performing with condition builds, Thief and Mesmer, the rest are far outclassed by their power build counterparts. Any builds other than Thief or Mesmer using condition are only good for killing bad or unprepared players. There are so many ways to cleanse or deal with conditions now that they’re only relevant if you leave the player applying them unchecked.

Please, people… When making complaints about conditions at least try to make a more valid argument than “condtions too stronk, need nerf. Maybe remove condi stats or add another way to counter conditions” (on top of Resistance, evading, blocking, invulnerability and cleanses because apparently that’s not enough).

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

What condition meta? The Epi Necros in zergs, condi bunk Chronos and ghost Thieves in roaming?

Those 3 builds constitute a meta now?

Hate to burst your bubble but condition builds are a niche in WvW. OP and 90% of the other people making complaints are probably just pugs falling behind their zergs getting picked off by roamers and are unable to deal with the conditions because they’re running a zerging build that rely heavily on teammate support.

Power and bunker is the meta, not condition. Two professions are over performing with condition builds, Thief and Mesmer, the rest are far outclassed by their power build counterparts. Any builds other than Thief or Mesmer using condition are only good for killing bad or unprepared players. There are so many ways to cleanse or deal with conditions now that they’re only relevant if you leave the player applying them unchecked.

Please, people… When making complaints about conditions at least try to make a more valid argument than “condtions too stronk, need nerf. Maybe remove condi stats or add another way to counter conditions” (on top of Resistance, evading, blocking, invulnerability and cleanses because apparently that’s not enough).

I wouldn’t even say condi thief is over performing. Power thieves are much more dangerous than condi thieves. The only reason certain condi thief builds (ghost thief) needs to be fixed is because there is realistically only 2 professions that can fight them, so even though they aren’t much of a threat on their own they are pretty much unstoppable when you have a small group running the build.
So yeah, needing multiple players to secure 1 kill doesn’t mean it’s over performing, but it is still absolutely broken.

Junkpile.7439:

razzor.2716:

Junkpile.7439:

razzor.2716:

GROMIT.7829:

Have “Protection” affect condition damage.

Done.

33% decrease in damage and duration for poision, bleeding, burning, torment, confusion
66% effectiveness for all other conditions (just like 10% effectiveness of these on targets with defiance)

Or force players do some condi cleanse training before they can go WvW.

Are you aware of a class called necro which has a variety of boon corrupting skills which corrupts boons faster than one can cleanse ?

I don’t use boons when i fight against necro. That would be just stupid. And need to remember that dodge have much shorter cool down than necros boon corrupt skills.

Do you realize that we are nott talking about 1v1 duel with a necro but anything between 10v10 to full blob vs blob that happens in wvw and your advice is not to use any boons just because they have necros ? You are telling me that dodge has shorter cool down than 1.5s auto attack chain of necros (scepter), not to mention that the class has multiple other utility skills related to boon corruption. Using no boons: no empower, fury, stability, regeneration,etc just because they have necros is one of the most stupid idea I have heard in a while.