Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

in WvW

Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

/15 charrs sacrificed to the forum god.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

You want anet to redesign wvw to favor “guild centric” aka gvg play with more population cap restrictions

We can stop here. You continue to equate “guild centric” with gvg and think it has to do with population cap restrictions so that’s your problem.

Nah, you should probably read on and learn from your own words.

You can attempt to deflect all you want, but at least I know anet will never kill off the open world style pvp sandbox that wvw is… At least you’ll still be able to enjoy your structured “guild centric” gameplay in OS and guild halls.

New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro

221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

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Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

You want anet to redesign wvw to favor “guild centric” aka gvg play with more population cap restrictions

We can stop here. You continue to equate “guild centric” with gvg and think it has to do with population cap restrictions so that’s your problem.

Nah, you should probably read on and learn from your own words.

You can attempt to deflect all you want, but at least I know anet will never kill off the open world style pvp sandbox that wvw is… At least you’ll still be able to enjoy your structured “guild centric” gameplay in OS and guild halls.

“Structured gameplay” means you are not reading. You are out of rational arguments. The beauty of forums is that people have the option to clarify OP to those who are following the conversation closely.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

(edited by Chaba.5410)

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

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Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

BTW, my co-leader in NERF who is much more a PvE and casual pug WvW player than I put forward the idea to me recently that WvW needs gvg battlegrounds to survive.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

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Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

I’m not totally sure what the thread is actually about as the OP is rather vague. I’ll ask for clarification where I see it’s needed, but I apologize if I inadvertently make some false assumption.

‘Guild-centric’ is not clear. You sort of define it as “protections from a blob being created for roamers, scouts, and small havoc guilds to play WvW their way,” but I don’t understand what that has to do with guilds. My assumption will be that by focusing on guilds, you presume that there won’t be mega-blobs because the guilds will be running separately. As a result, other players are ‘protected’ from blobs because there are no blobs.

I suspect that as long as a blob is the most effective way to do things, though, there will continue to be blobs. Even if the blob is made up of multiple guilds, they’re not going to self-separate willy-nilly. Protection from blobs, then, must be pursued in other ways.


You also contend that guilds transfer servers to fight other guilds as fighting casual militia mobs is not fun. I am not certain this is the main issue. I’ve seen guilds transfer to be on stronger servers, to face servers that have more even numbers (because others were too high or too low), or for political reasons. Some have transferred to fight other guilds, but they are not the majority.

Hidden beneath this is the realization that fighting a casual guild is not as fun as fighting a GvG guild. This suggests that WvW is only for hardcore guilds. If I may speak from my experience, the WvW effort does benefit from such guilds but is equally or more extensively benefited from having many individuals who understand what’s going on and are willing to fight, scout and cap structures without a tag. The two things (guilds and individuals) have a symbiotic relationship. More GvG guilds would benefit the GvG scene and hurt the rest.

That said, it would be good to see guild stuff that could band the individual effort together in ways other than just combat. I’ve seen a few scouting guilds, which is nice. Support for players to participate in guilds and WvW in a capacity other than GvG would definitely be good…but I’m not sure if that’s included in your post.


I would actually rather see server-centric play step forward as it gives smaller guilds a frame to exist in. Even if it was just a signpost in Citadel where guilds and players could say ’we’ll be doing this thing (fighting with 20, scouting an area, roaming, etc) for a while.’ There are things that need doing and sometimes people to do them. The hard part is teaching new players what’s important at what time and how to do it. Guilds would be great at that if they didn’t tend to focus solely on combat.

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

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Posted by: Chinchilla.1785

Chinchilla.1785

I’m not totally sure what the thread is actually about as the OP is rather vague. I’ll ask for clarification where I see it’s needed, but I apologize if I inadvertently make some false assumption.

TBH. The OP comes off as just a request, with a quote that inspired it. Essentially: ANET, please have more guild centric stuff in WvW because [OP’s link thing].

Regardless if this is the wrong interpretation or not. That’s how I saw it. The [OP’s link thing] is what I disagreed with (namely going to 100 player cap). Given current servers barely handling a three way…it’d be mess. This is especially true since guilds voltron up anyway. I don’t see much difference in a public 100 man blob, and a 100 man voltron guilded blob.

If you wanted to resolve blobs that’d come down to map design. Which this topic doesn’t address. He also doesn’t say he wanted only GvG. Idk why that gets brought up. The easy fix to GvGs is another spvp map...especially true because that format gets some resemblance of balance.

RISE guild best guild super RPers trash blob guild [RISE] masters of the die on inc technique.

Trinity Of Our EU Lords [Kazo] Zudo Jason Betta

(edited by Chinchilla.1785)

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Posted by: Swamurabi.7890

Swamurabi.7890

I have to say that my favorite times in WvW were in a guild. I joined RET after the guild had a split and they needed to recruit.

While I think that limiting squad size to 20 could help, I rarely see more than two tags per map. I just don’t think that most servers can have 4-5 commanders per map.

The other issue I see is that while I was in RET during the GvG golden age, there was a subset of players that wanted to become more serious and the guild got split between the GvG focused players and the “have fun” playing WvW players. This didn’t end well.

If you were to limit guild size to 20 I can see instances where a player gets pushed off the “A” team to make room for another player/class. I can also see where a guild of 20 becomes exclusive of others and turns nasty to players on their own server, or even players in the same guild.

I can also see where the guilds that run 40 would still run the same but having a frontline 20 and a backline 20.

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

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Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

OK I see that I need to clarify something. I used the example provided by Sabull because yes, his comments were refreshing, especially in the idea that guilds fighting each other improves WvW rather than just casual blobs of players. He was against the idea of GvG as esports.

“My assumption will be that by focusing on guilds, you presume that there won’t be mega-blobs because the guilds will be running separately. As a result, other players are ‘protected’ from blobs because there are no blobs.”

So my background in this game, I started out playing havoc mostly on the BLs, trying to do the strategic thing called “map politics”, as a direct result of playing on a laptop that couldn’t handle the large lag-inducing blob fights. Zergs would seek out other zergs to fight and thus would create “spaces” or “protections” for havoc guilds to do stuff like cut off supply lines or ninja towers in support of a public tag’s zerg. As guilded zergs died off, it became such that servers were left without a main force to effectively tie up another server’s zerg. This lead to a die-off of havoc-sized guilds and other roamers who either quit or moved down to lower tier servers to get away from the frequency of the casual public tag blob. When you’re a small 5-man guild and you can’t find other similar sized guilds to fight against your options are reduced to either finding a public tag to “zerg surf” off of (exacerbating the blobbing) or a lot of boring PvD against the lone hopeless scout on the other server who is crying on teamchat asking for the 50-man EBG blob to respond.

I also have spent a lot of time in this game as a public tag, especially during Season 2 when I lead without a guild, and many times wishing for a small 5-man havoc guild to support my main force on a defended map. When I didn’t have such support, especially when trying to defend, I called it “sucking wind”. It is very difficult to get a few militia to form a separate party off your tag and doing some havoc in the southern or northern half of a BL to support you. You get put into a reactive position where you cannot dictate your opponent’s movements at all. In my experience, guilds invested in such activity do a much better job at this function than militia.

As well I’ve also participated in the so-called toxic GvG scene that used maps as personal battlegrounds. These types of guilds really only flourish during so-called prime time timezones like NA EST or OCX Prime because those times of highest population activity provided a type of high activity luxury where people could ignore playing WvW “as it was meant to be” because servers tended to have relatively even population during these times. Prime times are also the times when the most guilds tend to be rallying. When your guild rallies during an off-time, you don’t get a lot of playstyle options, especially if your guild is the only one during that time. While I’m not opposed to what GvG became, you have to understand that that was not WvW because it was too structured for WvW. A healthy structure of WvW requires a diversity of guilds/playstyles (see RTS comments below).

So about mega-blobs, yes guilds will “voltron” up sometimes. That’s up to individual guilds to manage as they seek the kind of sized fight they are looking for, but the important thing to remember is they have a higher probability of managing that than militia who generally play really conservatively and won’t take the kinds of risks in fights that people in the same guild and voice comms will. And yes, I too get frustrated at guilds who do this blobbing up against opponents just for an easy win while they are discouraging their opponents from playing to their own detriment. My point is that guilds have a greater potential for managing numbers than casual militia do and a lot of that is because the leaders of these guilds are more likely to contact each other in PM to arrange fights than militia will.

I’ll bring up EOTM again because EOTM most of the time looks like what WvW is without guilds.

So in the end, “guild-centric” means an organized WvW with a diverse option of playstyles. Militia by their nature do not provide the organization and diversity that guilds do. When a team has more militia than guilds, that presents a particular problem for both that team and their opponents.

Some of you are trying to say something about Anet not wanting to cater to what I’m trying to describe, but remember Anet once said that WvW is inspired by RTS where you are the unit around the time HoT came out. You usually need to build different kinds of units to be successful in an RTS. That’s always meant to me not only the different class builds but also the playstyles. I’m not going to go into WvW as RTS here. You can Google that for some insightful discussions that took place on this forum in the past.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

(edited by Chaba.5410)

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

No Chaba, gw2 wvw was not isnpired by rts… it was inspired by

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realm_versus_Realm

Started in a game called…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Age_of_Camelot

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World

Under “Trivia”…

“The inspiration for World versus World came from Dark Age of Camelot’s realm vs. realm battles.”

And if you try to change the spirit of wvw into some structured “4 guild units with 20 players each with 20 spots left over for randoms with special protections vs 2 other sides consisting of 4 guild units with 20 players each with 20 spots left over for randoms with protections”… then you kill the open world sandbox pvp gamemode that wvw was designed to be.

Edit- “So in the end, “guild-centric” means an organized WvW”… and there ya go… “organized wvw” aka structured wvw aka structured gameplay.

You want anet to redesign wvw to favor “guild centric” aka gvg play with more population cap restrictions

We can stop here. You continue to equate “guild centric” with gvg and think it has to do with population cap restrictions so that’s your problem.

Nah, you should probably read on and learn from your own words.

You can attempt to deflect all you want, but at least I know anet will never kill off the open world style pvp sandbox that wvw is… At least you’ll still be able to enjoy your structured “guild centric” gameplay in OS and guild halls.

“Structured gameplay” means you are not reading. You are out of rational arguments. The beauty of forums is that people have the option to clarify OP to those who are following the conversation closely.

New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro

221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.

(edited by Swagger.1459)

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

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Posted by: Chinchilla.1785

Chinchilla.1785

Okay.

So, this is probably more clear. OP wants to introduce more strategy beyond single pin (militia or guilded) map zergs by throwing in “guild centric” stuff. The “guild centric” being more like a spvp queue but for larger groups of 20. Even if that is wrong, the common goal is trying to resolve the zerg-only playstyle/tactic, yes?

I am going to say this again. If you want to directly change that behavior I believe it will come down to map design. Which this topic doesn’t engage in, and why I disagree with the OP.

OP’s idea makes it optional, sure. It would mean everyone plays on the same map either fighting equally in different places or taking turns.


Being spread out across the current maps means more running simulator to me, and typically the placed objectives encourage blobbing at a few locations. Or in other words…ANET put the most important thing in the center (SMC) as a way to increase chances of zerg on zerg action. Or when they wished to reduce zerging they didn’t place much in the center (Bloodlust). Eotm is it’s own beast (map design, and game mode rules) but it mainly deals with limited amount of pins that force 1 hive mind.

The taking turns is totally out of the question. I hate that dogfood even though my current guild engages in it as the only way to by pass finding an enemy in the void.

I can’t say ANET was inspired by RTS or not (really off topic probably lol). However, there are strong correlations to RTS. After all people often refer to blobs as zergs. Do I need to say which RTS that word comes from?

RISE guild best guild super RPers trash blob guild [RISE] masters of the die on inc technique.

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Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

Chaba

My point is that guilds have a greater potential for managing numbers than casual militia do and a lot of that is because the leaders of these guilds are more likely to contact each other in PM to arrange fights than militia will.

You’re right on this point, but that doesn’t seem like a solution to the problems you’re talking about. Rather, it is a step sideways.

Chaba

So in the end, “guild-centric” means an organized WvW with a diverse option of playstyles. Militia by their nature do not provide the organization and diversity that guilds do. When a team has more militia than guilds, that presents a particular problem for both that team and their opponents.

This ‘diverse’ option of playstyles seems very restricted to me. You can either be a hardcore GvG guild (since casual guilds don’t fit the criteria) or one of a few stragglers. The benefits of guilds, in this case, are that they want even fights and thus police their own numbers.

I agree that playstyle diversity hinges on breaking up the blob, but I don’t see any greater diversity from doing it in this manner. We have about the same number of choices—just different choices.

A better way would be to have an informed militia. If it is clearer to individual players what’s going on and what sort of actions are productive, they are better able to act as a group. We still needs guilds and such, but we can’t put the entire responsibility of organizing the war effort on them.

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

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Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

I can’t say ANET was inspired by RTS or not (really off topic probably lol). However, there are strong correlations to RTS. After all people often refer to blobs as zergs. Do I need to say which RTS that word comes from?

Yes, it is off-topic, but if you are interested, Game Director Colin Johanson kept using the RTS analogy in interviews regarding Heart of Thorns when talking about how they wanted to bring more strategic thinking into WvW (think tactivators and shrines). RvR of course comes from DAoC.

I.e., “Johanson said they want to continue building on the idea of players being units in a massive RTS for the game’s world-versus-world mode.”

Edit: here are two fun old threads from 2013 to read about RTS and posters touched on a lot of points we are making in this thread.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Guildcraft-Applying-RTS-logic-to-WvW

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/What-if-we-turn-WvW-into-a-RTS

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

(edited by Chaba.5410)

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

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Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

A better way would be to have an informed militia. If it is clearer to individual players what’s going on and what sort of actions are productive, they are better able to act as a group. We still needs guilds and such, but we can’t put the entire responsibility of organizing the war effort on them.

That could work. Problem has always been that the game doesn’t have any sort of guides in that regard. The traditional solution was to get people to join a guild to learn WvW, heh. Also server community forums. Remember that dude on TC who wrote like a 20 page document for TC on “how to wvw”? Heh.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

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Posted by: Baldrick.8967

Baldrick.8967

What is guild wars without the guild and the war part?

It’s called Guild Wars 2. Shortened by most to GW2, so as not to insult the only real Guild Wars, which had guilds and wars. this one doesn’t.

As for reserving spots for guilds, not going to happen. Learn to deal with the ‘pugs’, who outnumber guilds considerably, as well as contributing more to the score than some bunch of posers standing in start area for an hour taking up space whilst they ‘form their raid’, then spend all night doing very little, letting everything else upgrade, and then retiring saying what a wonderful job they did of being farmed by the enemy who held bay all night.

If you don’t want many ‘pugs’ around, move your guild down a few tiers. Or learn to help them, and maybe they might even become guild members and show you how to play.

Anet missed the boat not having proper guild fights from the start (ahhh, how I miss Guild Wars) and factions, and something like HoH. In fact, all the best bits of Guild Wars seem to have been lost in GW2.

I’m not sure what they can do at this stage to fix wvw.

WvW player. Doing another world completion for my next Legendary. Hater of mini-games.

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

I can’t say ANET was inspired by RTS or not (really off topic probably lol). However, there are strong correlations to RTS. After all people often refer to blobs as zergs. Do I need to say which RTS that word comes from?

Yes, it is off-topic, but if you are interested, Game Director Colin Johanson kept using the RTS analogy in interviews regarding Heart of Thorns when talking about how they wanted to bring more strategic thinking into WvW (think tactivators and shrines). RvR of course comes from DAoC.

I.e., “Johanson said they want to continue building on the idea of players being units in a massive RTS for the game’s world-versus-world mode.”

Edit: here are two fun old threads from 2013 to read about RTS and posters touched on a lot of points we are making in this thread.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Guildcraft-Applying-RTS-logic-to-WvW

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/What-if-we-turn-WvW-into-a-RTS

Bolded… through map mechanics. DBL map was inspired by rts games. It’s also the least liked map… and you can let that be an indication as to how your topic would be received if the game went down the "organized rtsesque wvw " route.

And that’s right, wvw was inspired by rvr in daoc, not rts games as you stated.

New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro

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Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

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Posted by: Sviel.7493

Sviel.7493

That could work. Problem has always been that the game doesn’t have any sort of guides in that regard. The traditional solution was to get people to join a guild to learn WvW, heh. Also server community forums. Remember that dude on TC who wrote like a 20 page document for TC on “how to wvw”? Heh.

I don’t know about TC, but I’m the one on SoS that wrote a Scout Manifesto complete with math. I also adopted newbies and showed them the ropes whenever I could.

But you’re right—without support from the game, it’s a fairly insurmountable task. People often drop onto the map and don’t even want to talk in chat to ask for help. If they do ask, they’re told to just follow the pin. A zerg is nice, sure, but if everyone amasses into a militia, all of the other necessary things go undone.

I posted a thread about using the reward system to show players what sort of activities are useful, but it doesn’t seem to be popular at all. Guess I’ll keep working on other ways to educate the masses .-.

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Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

And that’s right, wvw was inspired by rvr in daoc, not rts games as you stated.

RTS quotes demonstrably came from Anet, as did DAoC quotes. There’s nothing wrong about making that statement.

Desert BL was designed to try to encourage more RTS like elements. That isn’t all that was added. Tactivators allowed for some more strategic play and those are WvW-wide. Don’t forget the new Squad UI and especially shared participation, which was meant to help incentivize the scouting role.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

(edited by Chaba.5410)

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

And that’s right, wvw was inspired by rvr in daoc, not rts games as you stated.

RTS quotes demonstrably came from Anet, as did DAoC quotes. There’s nothing wrong about making that statement.

Desert BL was designed to try to encourage more RTS like elements. That isn’t all that was added. Tactivators allowed for some more strategic play and those are WvW-wide. Don’t forget the new Squad UI and especially shared participation, which was meant to help incentivize the scouting role.

Adding more strategic and tactical elements to maps is vastly different than what you are proposing.

It’s really good to see you picking up and using my talking points btw.

New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro

221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

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Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

And that’s right, wvw was inspired by rvr in daoc, not rts games as you stated.

RTS quotes demonstrably came from Anet, as did DAoC quotes. There’s nothing wrong about making that statement.

Desert BL was designed to try to encourage more RTS like elements. That isn’t all that was added. Tactivators allowed for some more strategic play and those are WvW-wide. Don’t forget the new Squad UI and especially shared participation, which was meant to help incentivize the scouting role.

Adding more strategic and tactical elements to maps is vastly different than what you are proposing.

It’s really good to see you picking up and using my talking points btw.

You back to your “gvg battlegrounds” kick? You don’t own talking points, especially not ones that were created by Anet. Nor do you get to cherry-pick Anet talking points. At this point what is your purpose here in continuously responding on the thread I created and put words in my mouth by cherry-picking and taking something out of context of the whole conversation? You already contributed your feedback about how to encourage guild-centric play through better rewards for it and you seem to have nothing further to add.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

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Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

As for reserving spots for guilds, not going to happen.

The battlegroups idea floated by Anet seemed to indicate that that was going to happen in some form. The so-called leak of it showed an added alliance chat in addition to map/team/guild chats. It is one way of encouraging guild play, but perhaps there are better ways such as offering some type of reward that cannot be obtained by “pugging” or some sort of progression only guild rallies in WvW can obtain.

Learn to deal with the ‘pugs’, who outnumber guilds considerably

That’s a bit of a circular argument because when you say that pugs outnumber guilds, you have to wonder if the reason for that is because the game doesn’t encourage guild play over “pugging”.

But there are also guilds who rally and want militia to join them. Not every guild that rallies in WvW is looking to be esports. Problems arise on a team when there aren’t enough guilds to lead the militia. How many public tags do you know run without a guild to help anchor their pug blob? That number has greatly dwindled because it is a lot on one person. Many vets like myself look back on the time when WvW had more guilds rallying in it as times of nostalgia.

Sviel suggests the problem is related to educating the militia. Educating militia has become somewhat of a joke over the years because people will get into these “server meetings” and someone invariably recommends that the militia need training. Players not only burned out on public tagging, but also in militia training. Heh. Very few players remain who do actual militia training.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

(edited by Chaba.5410)

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

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Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

And that’s right, wvw was inspired by rvr in daoc, not rts games as you stated.

RTS quotes demonstrably came from Anet, as did DAoC quotes. There’s nothing wrong about making that statement.

Desert BL was designed to try to encourage more RTS like elements. That isn’t all that was added. Tactivators allowed for some more strategic play and those are WvW-wide. Don’t forget the new Squad UI and especially shared participation, which was meant to help incentivize the scouting role.

Adding more strategic and tactical elements to maps is vastly different than what you are proposing.

It’s really good to see you picking up and using my talking points btw.

You back to your “gvg battlegrounds” kick? You don’t own talking points, especially not ones that were created by Anet. Nor do you get to cherry-pick Anet talking points. At this point what is your purpose here in continuously responding on the thread I created and put words in my mouth by cherry-picking and taking something out of context of the whole conversation? You already contributed your feedback about how to encourage guild-centric play through better rewards for it and you seem to have nothing further to add.

I made some corrections to your statements, that you dismissed, but used them later in your conversations.

How about this, why don’t you bullet point exactly what a revamped “guild centric” wvw would be like from top down instead of vague comments? Like what would the patch notes look like from the devs if this were implemented?

New Main- 80 Thief – P/P- Vault Spam Pro

221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.

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Posted by: Chorazin.4107

Chorazin.4107

It all comes back to too many things are in the blobs favour in this game. It has improved slightly with the update to the rally mechanics. But still far too heavily stacked in favour of blobbing over co-ordinated smaller group play.

5 man cap on AoE. Every AoE the 30+man group farts out, epis, meteor showers, drop the hammers etc etc hits the 5 man crew. Yet the small groups retaliation AoE only hits 5 in that 30+man. And how rewards are just given out regardless of numbers, do it with 5 ppl? Same reward as blobbing it down.

Chorazin
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Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

in WvW

Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

I made some corrections to your statements

That’s called mansplaining in other contexts. Anet said that WvW is inspired by RTS. They have also referenced DAoC. I never excluded DAoC in any statement I made. It is off-topic to enumerate a long list of what inspired WvW when highlighting one aspect of it yet here you are “correcting” it. No one “corrects” you over omission of your gaming history before you make GW2 comments so stop responding on this thread if the only reason you are responding is to bog down the conversation with off-topic minutia. Go start a new thread about what inspired WvW if you are so passionate about it.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

(edited by Chaba.5410)

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

in WvW

Posted by: SpellOfIniquity.1780

SpellOfIniquity.1780

Can I just ask why people play WvW (world versus world), a large scale mode, and constantly complain about the scale or suggest ways to make it smaller?

It was designed to be blobby. It’s not Party versus Party.

I understand wanting more options for guilds and that’s okay but, please keep in mind that some of us enjoy both the large and the small scale regardless of how uneven it can be at times. Some people like the chaotic mess and a challenge rather than the sterile sportsmanship environment that GvG’s enjoy.

Here’s a better idea.

Let’s make a portal in guild halls. When you enter this portal, you will be given 3 options:

  • PvE mode
  • WvW mode
  • PvP mode

Upon selection, the rules for said mode will be applied and you will be placed in your guild halls battle arena with a manually adjustable player cap.

For PvE, PvE damage, skills, etc. will apply. For PvP, same story but with amulets. For WvW, same story, etc.

You don’t need a new map. You don’t need your own map. You don’t need to exclude people from the thing they came to WvW to do. To float from place to place without anyone telling them what to do.

I’d honestly argue that guilds are one of the worst things to happen to WvW rather than the best. Since 90% of them yell at people, try to take control of the map and throw a fit if fights don’t go exactly their way. Oh no… You were outnumbered… Uh oh. Better cry on the forums that we need a place to have our special little tea parties because we don’t already have multiple places to do so (cough, guild halls, cough, obsidian sanctum, cough, private PvP lobbys, cough, empty borderlands).

EDIT: LOL, the amount of people that are complaining about blobbing… Really, guys. This is why cups of coffee have to say “CAUTION: HOT” on them.

Necromancer, Ranger, Warrior, Engineer
Champion: Phantom, Hunter, Legionnaire, Genius
WvW rank: Diamond Colonel | Maguuma

(edited by SpellOfIniquity.1780)

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

in WvW

Posted by: Chinchilla.1785

Chinchilla.1785


EDIT: LOL, the amount of people that are complaining about blobbing… Really, guys. This is why cups of coffee have to say “CAUTION: HOT” on them.

And if we raise the map cap to 100 they’d need to add “CAUTION: LAGGY.”

RISE guild best guild super RPers trash blob guild [RISE] masters of the die on inc technique.

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Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

in WvW

Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

some of us enjoy both the large and the small scale regardless of how uneven it can be at times.

Having both large and small scale is the diversity that makes WvW healthy. I’ve seen those choices become harder to obtain as guilds leave.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

in WvW

Posted by: SpellOfIniquity.1780

SpellOfIniquity.1780

some of us enjoy both the large and the small scale regardless of how uneven it can be at times.

Having both large and small scale is the diversity that makes WvW healthy. I’ve seen those choices become harder to obtain as guilds leave.

I still see plenty of small scale and many of them are guilds. The problem is that they no longer seek to attack similar sized groups, to test their metal against larger sized groups or to see if they can snipe an objective while the enemy isn’t looking.

Either they’re ganking solos or they’re running from blobs.

There are two reasons for this:

  • HoT power creep made having one or two extra players a big difference.
  • Automatic upgrades on objectives and powerful defensive upgrades.

Unless you massively outskill the offending team, you likely won’t defeat a group that’s twice your size anymore. Though that was once a thing that happened regularly for guilds that knew how to do it.

Automatic upgrades and things like emergency waypoints or watch towers have made taking anything without a blob nearly impossible. Attacking objectives used to be a good strategy to draw some action. Smaller groups could bait pugs in to defending and if played right, they would be able to defeat the pugs and take the objective before a full sized zerg showed up. Now, watch tower, invulnerable structure, shield generators and emergency waypoints prevent that. It’s either drop 9 superior catapults, get inside and capture ASAP or get blobbed to death.

Now on to the subject of GvG instead of GvP (guild versus pug).

I’ve already addressed the fact that there are more than a couple options for guilds to challenge each other without (or with little) outside interference. You don’t need a safe zone in EBG or a full map to yourselves. I might be misunderstanding but if you’re asking for a full map, that’s pretty funny. What are you going to do there when there aren’t any guilds to fight? Ktrain? Seems like a pretty huge waste of effort for the devs to me.

I understand that guilds dislike pugs interfering, I understand that constantly being outnumbered sucks. Having more options for guilds would be cool, but I think improving on the ones we have would be a better choice rather than exclusion (meaning, “NO PUGS ALLOWED”, which seems to be the environment that you want).

Necromancer, Ranger, Warrior, Engineer
Champion: Phantom, Hunter, Legionnaire, Genius
WvW rank: Diamond Colonel | Maguuma

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

in WvW

Posted by: Swagger.1459

Swagger.1459

I made some corrections to your statements

That’s called mansplaining in other contexts. Anet said that WvW is inspired by RTS. They have also referenced DAoC. I never excluded DAoC in any statement I made. It is off-topic to enumerate a long list of what inspired WvW when highlighting one aspect of it yet here you are “correcting” it. No one “corrects” you over omission of your gaming history before you make GW2 comments so stop responding on this thread if the only reason you are responding is to bog down the conversation with off-topic minutia. Go start a new thread about what inspired WvW if you are so passionate about it.

And this is where the communication from you goes in a cyclical pattern. Constantly selectively quoting and unable to address the key points. You can’t even provide a clear and detailed description of what this “guild centric” wvw would look like… I can go through every comment you have made and clearly see you dodging my comments at each step.

WvW was inspired by daoc’s rvr. Rts games were used as inspiration to create the dbl. Both of those were very clear… You are completely ignoring the entire design intent (a rvr mode modeled after daoc) for wvw here and are trying to force some rts stuff to feed your narrative about making an “organized wvw” (organized/structured.. which you denied originally then admitted later), where the predominant form of gameplay and structure revolves around guild “units”… This is yet another “let’s turn wvw into some glorified guild battle ground because all other forms of play are lesser, and nothing (not rewards, lag fixes, profession updates, … and the gambit of truly important things to get more players and guild playing…) but guilds with save gw2 wvw”…

Either provide specific details and coherent arguments to back up why the entire mode should change, or give up, because nothing you have brought up would convince the devs to change or gain acceptance by the majority of players who have come to prefer this daocesque rvr mode.

Edit- and if you think this “guild centric organized wvw” is the answer, you are completely wrong. If this ever came to pass (which it won’t thankfully) you can enjoy an empty wvw while players are off in 2 other rvr games that are capturing the spirit of rvr, one of which happens to be a successor to the very much loved daoc. As is, anet is going to have a tough time matching up with what’s coming and you want to really kill of rvr in gw2 by pushing this idea.

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221 hours over 1,581 days of bank space/hot pve/lion’s arch afk and some wvw.

(edited by Swagger.1459)

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

in WvW

Posted by: Chaba.5410

Chaba.5410

I still see plenty of small scale and many of them are guilds. The problem is that they no longer seek to attack similar sized groups, to test their metal against larger sized groups or to see if they can snipe an objective while the enemy isn’t looking.

Either they’re ganking solos or they’re running from blobs.

There are two reasons for this:

  • HoT power creep made having one or two extra players a big difference.
  • Automatic upgrades on objectives and powerful defensive upgrades.

In moving through the tiers, I found more small scale guilds willing to attack in the mid-tiers while also having the larger zerg fights. This made the mid-tiers far more fun to fight in. Addressing the reasons behind why would be a step for Anet to take towards encouraging more guild-centric play in all tiers.

Automatic upgrades and things like emergency waypoints or watch towers have made taking anything without a blob nearly impossible.

Yes, pretty much, although that occurs for “defended” objectives. Obviously stuff gets taken also through a few guys doing “PvDoor”. The offense/defense balance was definitely modified and not necessarily for the better. Anet did tone down defense after the desert bl beta (I discussed this in depth in a long post about the long siege under the archived borderlands beta test forum). There’s also a way old discussion on this forum about how the sizes of blobs increased when the damage to arrow carts was buffed.

Now on to the subject of GvG instead of GvP (guild versus pug).

I’ve already addressed the fact that there are more than a couple options for guilds to challenge each other without (or with little) outside interference.

Having more options for guilds would be cool, but I think improving on the ones we have would be a better choice rather than exclusion (meaning, “NO PUGS ALLOWED”, which seems to be the environment that you want).

Guilds taking themselves out of WvW to challenge each other via the existing options is not WvW though. I’ll repeat, not every guild is looking to be esports and there are still guilds in this game that enjoy so-called “open field” fights against both pug groups and guild groups and don’t mind having pugs follow. I’m not looking to exclude pugs. Maybe you got that from Sabull’s thread, but read it carefully. I took away from it the idea about maintaining a balance between the number of guilds and “others” on a map as one way to “improve WvW”. He said WvW should be more like GvG, meaning guilds actually fighting each other, not ganking solos or running away from blobs.

I didn’t want to go back through forum history and compile suggestions players made in the past about how to encourage guild-centric play, but another old suggestion was for Anet to address the removal of home server town chat when mega-server was introduced. That change greatly crippled WvW guilds’ ability to recruit and rally everyone on a server for WvW.

Chaba Tangnu
Founding member of [NERF] Fort Engineer and driver for [TLC] The Legion of Charrs
RIP [SIC] Strident Iconoclast

(edited by Chaba.5410)

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

in WvW

Posted by: Haematic.4913

Haematic.4913

Mega server did kill server identity.

I remember that way back when, if you were on a different server, you could visit your friends in another server simply by guesting to their server and chillin’ with old pals in LA.

IMHO, towns don’t really benefit a player who’s playing in the mega-servers. The maps that affect the players the most are the open-world PvE maps I.E. Dragon Stand, Cursed Shore, Queensdale, etc.

Towns should be tied to the Parent + Link servers for the current match-ups to help bring back server identity, within the towns & major outposts only. The “LFG” system is in place for a reason, that can remain for the mega-server. From a coding stand-point, it’s probably really complex at this point given the revamp to mega-servers because essentially ANet would have to reverse that coding and create an all new one and one that updates with re-links.

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http://twitch.tv/haematic

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

in WvW

Posted by: Dinas Dragonbane.2978

Dinas Dragonbane.2978

My guild runs wvw 3 nights a week and all our guild missions are wvw based, and when HoT came out the missions were even more rewarding than before with the inclusion of resonating slivers(remember when those were like 5-6 gold a piece cause supply was nonexistent?). We would run the missions tagged up with 8-14 of us and pugs would follow and help us out having fun in the process(except the times we lost badly, ha!). Borlis Pass was around T6 I believe but even we would have good fights with other guilds doing their missions, especially the original Oasis event, and it wasn’t getting blobbed like it was in the high tiers so it was fully functional and a total blast as many teams had to split in order to succeed and couldn’t just roll in one pack to win.

In any case even though this was reward based, the general population of our server benefitted from the open activity of what my guild was doing…whereas enemies got some competition to face at the same time. In those tiers blobbing wasn’t a thing so it was basically all small to medium scaled and was relatively balanced. Sadly it’s much harder to come by that with the server linkings.

Dinas Dragonbane, the Danger Ranger
Tri-Lead of Ascension [WAR] of Borlis Pass

Anet, encourage more guild-centric play

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Posted by: Stand The Wall.6987

Stand The Wall.6987

ppl make it seem like guild centric gameplay would destroy wvw. it wouldn’t. there would still be pugmanders and zergs. man lol you say one thing about organization and ppl lose it. gw2 players really love their zergs.

ppl who are hating on world linkings have a short memory span. before them wvw was a complete ghost town for most tiers. maybe you should remember the bad times along with the good to get a complete picture.

Team Deathmatch for PvP – Raise the AoE cap for WvW – More unique events for PvE