Guild Wars 2

Unless you can support a need for removing + condition duration food, saying for 3 years means jack. Direct damage was the mass majority in my opinion.

Before condition builds couldn’t compete with power builds. Now I am all for removing the food, or at least lowering the percentage. To do that, condition application skills will need a complete pass. Which would cause a base increase in condition duration or stacks in condition application skills, in many cases, or we are right back to where we started, with 3 more possible years of pure direct damage builds. Now in a few extreme cases, some skills or traits may still need a stack or two or so.e duration time knocked off. For the most part, they would need an increase, to compete, without the food in its current form.

coglin.1867:

Unless you can support a need for removing + condition duration food, saying for 3 years means jack. Direct damage was the mass majority in my opinion.

Before condition builds couldn’t compete with power builds. Now I am all for removing the food, or at least lowering the percentage. To do that, condition application skills will need a complete pass. Which would cause a base increase in condition duration or stacks in condition application skills, in many cases, or we are right back to where we started, with 3 more possible years of pure direct damage builds. Now in a few extreme cases, some skills or traits may still need a stack or two or so.e duration time knocked off. For the most part, they would need an increase, to compete, without the food in its current form.

Since the proposed change is removing both + and – condi duration food, nothing else has to change. Thise just removes the need for people to run – condi duration food to counter + duration food and vice versa.

Which in a vacuum, as you appear to state it, makes the provlem worse. Working under the assumption you appear to imply, which is inaccurate, that everyone uses the – condition food. Direct damage becomes stronger, and condition builds become weaker.

So you are implying that + condi duration food are necessary for a condition build to work at all, which shouldn’t be the case, anyway. So the logical step is to remove said food and then see if conditions itself need to be changed.

Iavra.8510:

So you are implying that + condi duration food are necessary for a condition build to work at all, which shouldn’t be the case, anyway. So the logical step is to remove said food and then see if conditions itself need to be changed.

Yeah, that is pretty much what I stated in a previous post. “Conditions itself” as a whole are irrelevant. What would need to be adjusted is the specific duration and stack amount per each weapon skill, utility skill, elite skill, and trait. As well as possibly sigils and runes that have effects that apply conditions.

Since condition damage per second is entirely unrelated to condition duration and it is widely known that burning is op, your statement of conditions being irrelevant is wrong.

/edit: Actually most roamers nowadays are condition as opposed to power, since those specs are tankier, easier to play and are equally capable of bursts. Removing +/- condi duration food will either lower these numbers or (most likely) not change anything, since not all power roamers are using – condi duration food, either.

They should add +40% condition duration every skill and just remove all foods.

Iavra.8510:

Since condition damage per second is entirely unrelated to condition duration and it is widely known that burning is op, your statement of conditions being irrelevant is wrong.

/edit: Actually most roamers nowadays are condition as opposed to power, since those specs are tankier, easier to play and are equally capable of bursts. Removing +/- condi duration food will either lower these numbers or (most likely) not change anything, since not all power roamers are using – condi duration food, either.

You appear to confuse your subjective opinion, with that of objective fact. For example, if you are going to declare someone as “wrong” perhaps you should attempt to offer a fact to actually support that.

I do not particularly care what you “claim” most roamers are. We have what, 54 servers? You claim to have proof of what every roamer on every server runs, with which to make your claim? You have evidence that “roamers” are the majority of players?

In my experience pure condition builds hardly cover 10% of the population that i encounter. I could over estimate and give credit for 25% and that is still not even remotely near a majority.

I would like you to present some facts of any kind to support your claim that condition builds put out equal burst of direct damage builds. Again, your making random claims with no evidence. I read a lot of post like this in the past that made similar claims with no facts, and I personally did a mathematical damage break down of many builds, and they were proved to be very wrong, and condition builds were generally well bellow direct damage builds. But that was before the changes in June.

So can you please offer some facts of any kind to support your accusations of others being “wrong” and/or to support your claims you stated?

Iavra.8510:

Since condition damage per second is entirely unrelated to condition duration

By the way, this statement is factually incorrect.

If I land an ability that causes 4s of bleeding on a 10s cool down. And if I have 50% increases bleed duration, then it is a fact that after 4 seconds all the remaining condition damage is entirely because of the condition duration. It is pretty basic math, and a fairly simple concept to grasp, so I am curious how you justify declaring it doesn’t exist?

I would like you to present some facts of any kind to support your claim that condition builds put out equal burst of direct damage builds.

I would suggest going over to the PvP forums where the first page is littered with threads regarding burning damage. Further i would watch a few roaming videos showing the amount of damage conditions can do when applied in multiples (widely known as “burst”).

coglin.1867:

Iavra.8510:

Since condition damage per second is entirely unrelated to condition duration

By the way, this statement is factually incorrect.

If I land an ability that causes 4s of bleeding on a 10s cool down. And if I have 50% increases bleed duration, then it is a fact that after 4 seconds all the remaining condition damage is entirely because of the condition duration. It is pretty basic math, and a fairly simple concept to grasp, so I am curious how you justify declaring it doesn’t exist?

Which in turn changes nothing from the fact that the damage done by second by any condition is entirely unrelated to how long this duration is applied. Proof: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Damage

Further yet, since the recent patch changing poison and burning to stack in intensity as opposed to duration, damaging conditions have been made more capable of bursting and thus profit more from condition damage than non-damaging conditions, which are better paired with condition duration, which in turn is equally important to power and condition builds, rendering the whole debate over buffing conditions in exchange for the removal of +/- condi duration food useless.

Iavra.8510:

I would like you to present some facts of any kind to support your claim that condition builds put out equal burst of direct damage builds.

I would suggest going over to the PvP forums where the first page is littered with threads regarding burning damage. Further i would watch a few roaming videos showing the amount of damage conditions can do when applied in multiples (widely known as “burst”).

coglin.1867:

Iavra.8510:

Since condition damage per second is entirely unrelated to condition duration

By the way, this statement is factually incorrect.

If I land an ability that causes 4s of bleeding on a 10s cool down. And if I have 50% increases bleed duration, then it is a fact that after 4 seconds all the remaining condition damage is entirely because of the condition duration. It is pretty basic math, and a fairly simple concept to grasp, so I am curious how you justify declaring it doesn’t exist?

Which in turn changes nothing from the fact that the damage done by second by any condition is entirely unrelated to how long this duration is applied. Proof: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition_Damage

Further yet, since the recent patch changing poison and burning to stack in intensity as opposed to duration, damaging conditions have been made more capable of bursting and thus profit more from condition damage than non-damaging conditions, which are better paired with condition duration, which in turn is equally important to power and condition builds, rendering the whole debate over buffing conditions in exchange for the removal of +/- condi duration food useless.

I would recommend going over to the PvE forums where burning builds are still sub par to zerker and outside of engi, guard, ele, condition builds, especially in dungeons are just horrid.

then I would recommend to log into the game for a few days and at whatever is your prime time check out the LFG feature and zee all the “zerker only” LFGs.

Then I would recommend for you to ask yourself why there are still so many of them if condis are supposed to be good now and give yourself an honest answer instead of focusing on self selected anecdotes.

then I would recommend coming up with ideas and solutions which would not make the bottom tier builds in other game modes even worse, but be actually good for the entire game.

TheLastNobody.8319:

I will never understand why people hate conditions so much…

Passive play.

1. Apply condition
2. Kite
3. Enemy clears condition after x damage

Repeat until 3. isn’t longer possible because enemy is through his condi clears.

Damage is ridiculous overall in pvp/wvw right now, but especially on guard’s burn which executes too fast for 9k ticks. Even if I dodge most of the big damage skills and the primary burn skill its too much.

New condi meta has made tankiness feel entirely useless. Even maximizing available condi clear doesn’t seem to help all too much.

I don’t have problems with the dmg output from my enemys in wvw (both power and condi). My pet has sometimes though, but this is more an issue with ranger/petdesign, not a problem with dmg in general.

Sirendor.1394:

Passive play.

1. Apply condition
2. Kite
3. Enemy clears condition after x damage

Repeat until 3. isn’t longer possible because enemy is through his condi clears.

1. Apply direct dmg
2. Kite
3. Enemy heals

Repeat until 3. isn’t longer possible because enemy has no heals anymore …

UmbraNoctis.1907:

I don’t have problems with the dmg output from my enemys in wvw (both power and condi). My pet has sometimes though, but this is more an issue with ranger/petdesign, not a problem with dmg in general.

Sirendor.1394:

Passive play.

1. Apply condition
2. Kite
3. Enemy clears condition after x damage

Repeat until 3. isn’t longer possible because enemy is through his condi clears.

1. Apply direct dmg
2. Kite
3. Enemy heals

Repeat until 3. isn’t longer possible because enemy has no heals anymore …

Step 2 makes no sense in a direct damage scenario, because it does not benefit damage output in melee situations. Condition damage however, still hits the enemy regardless of application.

If condis are cleansed and not reapplied immediately they deal (almost) zero dmg, so kiting benefits the dmg output for an condibuild even less. If you can’t cleanse or heal anymore and die to condis, while the enemy is only kiting, you would have probably died to direct dmg too, the only difference is, that an powerbuild doesn’t have to kite anymore, after it hits you in such a situation, because you are already downed.

In general condi application is not more passive than application of direct dmg (imo there is overall too much passive stuff – offensive and defensive – in the game, this is not only a condi issue), only the “execution” of the damage is different.

Sirendor.1394:

TheLastNobody.8319:

I will never understand why people hate conditions so much…

Passive play.

1. Apply condition
2. Kite
3. Enemy clears condition after x damage

Repeat until 3. isn’t longer possible because enemy is through his condi clears.

I do not think passive play means what you think it means. You have to land a skill to apply conditions.. Precisely like you have to land a skill to apply direct damage.

It is a very simple concept.

Landing a skill/Taking a button press action = Applying Damage

I think part of the issue here, is a fundamental lack of understanding of how the game works.

Sirendor.1394:

Step 2 makes no sense in a direct damage scenario, because it does not benefit damage output in melee situations. Condition damage however, still hits the enemy regardless of application.

No, condition damage does continue hit the enemy.

Direct damage attack lands and does 5000 damage instantly.

Condition application skill lands, does 1000 damage per second for 5 seconds. That’s 5000 damage over 5s.

Toxicity.5392:

Damage is ridiculous overall in pvp/wvw right now, but especially on guard’s burn which executes too fast for 9k ticks. Even if I dodge most of the big damage skills and the primary burn skill its too much.

New condi meta has made tankiness feel entirely useless. Even maximizing available condi clear doesn’t seem to help all too much.

How is a guardian able to get 9k burn ticks on you in sPvP? Are you just sitting in his purging flames field while he uses torch and judges intervention and whirling wrath? I mean i use a hybrid burn guard in pvp and ive yet to come across anyone who doesnt immediately dodge as soon as i use judges intervention into a group on point.

And if as you say you are dodging his primary hits, you shouldnt be taking 9k burn ticks. The math doesnt add up here. Unless im very much mistaken.

Spartacus.3192:

Toxicity.5392:

Damage is ridiculous overall in pvp/wvw right now, but especially on guard’s burn which executes too fast for 9k ticks. Even if I dodge most of the big damage skills and the primary burn skill its too much.

New condi meta has made tankiness feel entirely useless. Even maximizing available condi clear doesn’t seem to help all too much.

How is a guardian able to get 9k burn ticks on you in sPvP? Are you just sitting in his purging flames field while he uses torch and judges intervention and whirling wrath? I mean i use a hybrid burn guard in pvp and ive yet to come across anyone who doesnt immediately dodge as soon as i use judges intervention into a group on point.

And if as you say you are dodging his primary hits, you shouldnt be taking 9k burn ticks. The math doesnt add up here. Unless im very much mistaken.

I know right, wouldnt that have to be 24 stacks or something xD

Zetsumei.4975:

Spartacus.3192:

Toxicity.5392:

Damage is ridiculous overall in pvp/wvw right now, but especially on guard’s burn which executes too fast for 9k ticks. Even if I dodge most of the big damage skills and the primary burn skill its too much.

New condi meta has made tankiness feel entirely useless. Even maximizing available condi clear doesn’t seem to help all too much.

How is a guardian able to get 9k burn ticks on you in sPvP? Are you just sitting in his purging flames field while he uses torch and judges intervention and whirling wrath? I mean i use a hybrid burn guard in pvp and ive yet to come across anyone who doesnt immediately dodge as soon as i use judges intervention into a group on point.

And if as you say you are dodging his primary hits, you shouldnt be taking 9k burn ticks. The math doesnt add up here. Unless im very much mistaken.

I know right, wouldnt that have to be 24 stacks or something xD

yeah around 20 stacks i think which means he didnt dodge anything and probably poured some gasoline on himself before the fight started.

Spartacus.3192:

Zetsumei.4975:

Spartacus.3192:

Toxicity.5392:

Damage is ridiculous overall in pvp/wvw right now, but especially on guard’s burn which executes too fast for 9k ticks. Even if I dodge most of the big damage skills and the primary burn skill its too much.

New condi meta has made tankiness feel entirely useless. Even maximizing available condi clear doesn’t seem to help all too much.

How is a guardian able to get 9k burn ticks on you in sPvP? Are you just sitting in his purging flames field while he uses torch and judges intervention and whirling wrath? I mean i use a hybrid burn guard in pvp and ive yet to come across anyone who doesnt immediately dodge as soon as i use judges intervention into a group on point.

And if as you say you are dodging his primary hits, you shouldnt be taking 9k burn ticks. The math doesnt add up here. Unless im very much mistaken.

I know right, wouldnt that have to be 24 stacks or something xD

yeah around 20 stacks i think which means he didnt dodge anything and probably poured some gasoline on himself before the fight started.

LOL

From my perspective the damage spikes from power crit builds are the initial cause (tier 3-4 on EU, 75% of the roamers in 1-on-1 and in random groups use such builds).

If I mix a power crit spec with condi cleanse and some extra vita I would lose most fights against builds that max power crits. As a consequence, I would have to sacrifice condi cleanse and vita in favor of also maxing my crit damage to come to par in such a crit-fest duel. Obviously, duels against condi builds would then turn out to be a big pain.

If I run a condi build I need to put a lot into vita/toughness, running at least partially dire, to stand against such a power crit spec as long as it takes to build up my condi set upon my opponent and thus cause a significant DoT. Consequently, because of my lack of power, duels against diamond skin eles and other builds with a lot of anti-condi mechanics should . . . yea . . . actually be skipped.

Junkpile.7439:

They should add +40% condition duration every skill and just remove all foods.

LOL no! Then condi users just get to be OP for free and power users have no -condi food to combat it. What they should do is remove the food and introduce a new armor set that is condi damage, condi duration, and precision. As well as making it so that all skills that apply condis only do so on crit. Then condi users will have to take 3 stats just like a power user. If you want to do high damage, you should have to sacrifice defense the same as a power user. There’s no reason someone in dire should be able to deal as much damage as a zerker.

For those of you who have never played any other MMOs, DoT means damage over time. Condi burst shouldn’t be a thing, but it is in this game for some stupid reason. Condi SHOULD be attrition. But it isn’t. I can literally 100-0 someone in 1-2 seconds with my condi trapper ranger. And no amount of cleansing will save them. Ive had guardians step on my traps, hit contemplation of purity to cleanse it and still die a split second later. And i’m mostly in dire gear with ascended rabid/dire jewelry. Im so tanky I don’t have to dodge anything. I just drop traps on myself and /sleep and wait like a spider for prey. No effort required on my part. That sort of cheese shouldn’t be allowed to exist. Yes some power builds can 1 shot you, but they don’t get to have 3k armor and 26k+ health to let them facetank anything you do.

Either the damage of condis need to be severely toned down, or if you people want condis to be able to compete with power builds damage wise, their defense needs to be severely toned down. lowering the base duration of condi skills and removing the food will make +duration a required stat on armor. Making precision a requirement and not just icing on the cake for more condi spam will help balance it a lot too.

Well if trapper ranger is op they just need to remove/nerf traps. When full glass cannon mesmer or thief hit too hard right way to fix this is just lower every class and spec power damage.

Nikkinella.8254:

Junkpile.7439:

They should add +40% condition duration every skill and just remove all foods.

LOL no! Then condi users just get to be OP for free and power users have no -condi food to combat it. What they should do is remove the food and introduce a new armor set that is condi damage, condi duration, and precision. As well as making it so that all skills that apply condis only do so on crit. Then condi users will have to take 3 stats just like a power user. If you want to do high damage, you should have to sacrifice defense the same as a power user. There’s no reason someone in dire should be able to deal as much damage as a zerker.

For those of you who have never played any other MMOs, DoT means damage over time. Condi burst shouldn’t be a thing, but it is in this game for some stupid reason. Condi SHOULD be attrition. But it isn’t. I can literally 100-0 someone in 1-2 seconds with my condi trapper ranger. And no amount of cleansing will save them. Ive had guardians step on my traps, hit contemplation of purity to cleanse it and still die a split second later. And i’m mostly in dire gear with ascended rabid/dire jewelry. Im so tanky I don’t have to dodge anything. I just drop traps on myself and /sleep and wait like a spider for prey. No effort required on my part. That sort of cheese shouldn’t be allowed to exist. Yes some power builds can 1 shot you, but they don’t get to have 3k armor and 26k+ health to let them facetank anything you do.

Either the damage of condis need to be severely toned down, or if you people want condis to be able to compete with power builds damage wise, their defense needs to be severely toned down. lowering the base duration of condi skills and removing the food will make +duration a required stat on armor. Making precision a requirement and not just icing on the cake for more condi spam will help balance it a lot too.

Your making alot of unfounded claims, while failing to offer any evidence. What happens in other MMOs is irrelevant. If you prefer another games functionality, by all means, go play it.

If your going to cry fowl about a particular damage type, then break it down with numbers for us. This thread is filled with folks making,at best, anecdotal claims, yet I havn’t seen anyone offer evidence thay dire gear builds do any more DPS then a soldier gear build posted is a single post here that is crying fowl. You might as well be arguing that the sky is green.

coglin.1867:

Your making alot of unfounded claims, while failing to offer any evidence. What happens in other MMOs is irrelevant. If you prefer another games functionality, by all means, go play it.

If your going to cry fowl about a particular damage type, then break it down with numbers for us. This thread is filled with folks making,at best, anecdotal claims, yet I havn’t seen anyone offer evidence thay dire gear builds do any more DPS then a soldier gear build posted is a single post here that is crying fowl. You might as well be arguing that the sky is green.

Way back in the day I made a comparison in damage in a Spvp setting that showed that even in valk/soldiers amulet would still out dps a condi build.
I even showed how other countered me in WvW

Now I know now that things have changed especially the killing power of burning. which is (correct me if im wrong) the main QQ of these condi is overpowered complaints. nerf/recalculate this condition but dont affect the rest of them.

so this should mean a nerf to burning in one of 3 ways:
Lower the damage per tick
Lower the stacks per attack in half
Lowe the duration of each burn stack (for multiple stack skills)

I think your looking at it wrong. Burning in general, and how it functions doesn’t need to be changed. They simply need to adjust the individual skills that apply burning with a balancing pass. I feel broad stroking a condition, how it scales, or how it stacks is a bad idea. That is kind of how it got to this point in the first place.

coglin.1867:

Nikkinella.8254:

Junkpile.7439:

They should add +40% condition duration every skill and just remove all foods.

LOL no! Then condi users just get to be OP for free and power users have no -condi food to combat it. What they should do is remove the food and introduce a new armor set that is condi damage, condi duration, and precision. As well as making it so that all skills that apply condis only do so on crit. Then condi users will have to take 3 stats just like a power user. If you want to do high damage, you should have to sacrifice defense the same as a power user. There’s no reason someone in dire should be able to deal as much damage as a zerker.

For those of you who have never played any other MMOs, DoT means damage over time. Condi burst shouldn’t be a thing, but it is in this game for some stupid reason. Condi SHOULD be attrition. But it isn’t. I can literally 100-0 someone in 1-2 seconds with my condi trapper ranger. And no amount of cleansing will save them. Ive had guardians step on my traps, hit contemplation of purity to cleanse it and still die a split second later. And i’m mostly in dire gear with ascended rabid/dire jewelry. Im so tanky I don’t have to dodge anything. I just drop traps on myself and /sleep and wait like a spider for prey. No effort required on my part. That sort of cheese shouldn’t be allowed to exist. Yes some power builds can 1 shot you, but they don’t get to have 3k armor and 26k+ health to let them facetank anything you do.

Either the damage of condis need to be severely toned down, or if you people want condis to be able to compete with power builds damage wise, their defense needs to be severely toned down. lowering the base duration of condi skills and removing the food will make +duration a required stat on armor. Making precision a requirement and not just icing on the cake for more condi spam will help balance it a lot too.

Your making alot of unfounded claims, while failing to offer any evidence. What happens in other MMOs is irrelevant. If you prefer another games functionality, by all means, go play it.

If your going to cry fowl about a particular damage type, then break it down with numbers for us. This thread is filled with folks making,at best, anecdotal claims, yet I havn’t seen anyone offer evidence thay dire gear builds do any more DPS then a soldier gear build posted is a single post here that is crying fowl. You might as well be arguing that the sky is green.

As soon as im able to record it i’ll be glad to provide more than enough evidence that all i’m saying is true. I’ll make a compilation vid of all the cheesiest specs in the game and send it to anet. hopefully they’ll see how broken it is and finally balance it. If you’re impatient and happen to be in T2, i’ll be glad to meet you in game and show you just how easily i can 100-0 someone with a tanky condi build in mere seconds. And just because this is a different game is no excuse for it to be as wildly op as it is now DoTs are DoTs, period. They shouldn’t be capable of burst. its bad game design and needs to be changed.

No o e is suggesting you cannot do quick kills with condition builds. I am simply suggesting that you offer no evidence that you can kill faster with condition builds across the board then you can with equivalent power builds.

Are you intending to make videos in 1v1 style fight so it is irrelevant, or group fights? As WvW was stated since before release as not intended or designed for 1v1, so that would pointless to use 1v1 situation.

.

Conditions aren’t just simply Damage Over Time; they are status effects as well. De-buffs essentially. Not all of them(Burning and Bleed; true DOT), but most. Poison doesn’t simply do damage every second, it also decreases healing effectiveness by 33%. Torment does constant damage, more if you are moving.
It used to be that if you had 15 stacks of confusion on you, you could simply wait it out until you had a clear or it went away. Now, confusion will hurt you no matter what. Do nothing, take damage or die. Do something, take even more damage and die.
Immobilize prevents you from moving. Torment wants you to not move at all(counter for this was to not move, but that is no longer the case since condi’s damage application was changed). Cripple makes you move 50% slower. Chill makes you move 66% slower(immobilize, but stronger) as well as increases CD times of skills and abilities by 66%. Slow decreases activation time by 50%(only one skill in the game that applies this so… Meh). Confusion wants you to not activate skills. Fear forces you in the opposite direction its source and prevents you from activating skills(unless that skill is a clear or stun break). The very core of conditions wants condi users to stand and watch as receivers do nothing.

Tl;dr:
Conditions are just damage over time… No; you forgot to add in everything else conditions do. Condi has the best offensive and defensive utility in the game. Just because Condi PU takes several times longer to kill than shatter doesn’t make it any less kittening kittened.

Of course condis does not only deal dmg, however the dmg from those condis is the main difference between condi and powerbuilds. The non-damaging effects are the same for both types of builds.

coglin.1867:

I think your looking at it wrong. Burning in general, and how it functions doesn’t need to be changed. They simply need to adjust the individual skills that apply burning with a balancing pass. I feel broad stroking a condition, how it scales, or how it stacks is a bad idea. That is kind of how it got to this point in the first place.

You’re not really looking at it right either. You can pretty much narrow down the reason lots of things are OP (including burning and stealth) to one single thing – the ability to combo your own fields.

Yep its really that simple. This has always been the case since day 1.

The +40% condition duration foods should be made +15% and then make the +15% duration to a specific condition into +40% to that condition only. So you can still specialise in bleeds or burn or poison, but not get the +40% to every condi you have.

The way i look at it is if you do not avoid condition or remove them fast enofe your already dead before you know it. The same could be said for power dmg but your dead and you know it right there. But this is mostly true in 1v1 or 5v5 for zerg vs zerg i am not sure if they are as big other then the soft cc and hard cc of condi.

there shouldnt be 40% condi duration food. it is too much of a benefit over people who dont take the counter -40% duration food.

imagine there was +25% power damage food. Everyone would feel forced to either go power and use that, or take -25% damage food.

Currently, some classes are able to apply conditions at a rate that cannot be counted by any class except maybe necros and Ele’s who are allowed to freely ether renewal. By countered, I mean that on equal footing the counter class is more likely to win, not that that condi class does zero damage. Think of the best condi classes in the game (Necro, Mesmer, Engi, Ranger) and how you would go about building your class to beat them.

How would you beat a good, mostly dire condi necro (~20crit for his crit procs)?

On a ranger, a class with very strong condition removal, you would have to take -condi food, Lyssa Runes, Signet of Renewal, Healing Spring AND Empathic bond with a low-dps high HP pet (maybe 2 of them) to beat a condi-necro that is actually good. Thats 3 FULL clears and 3-4 passively removed conditions per 10sec. Never mind that it would be a completley horrible setup for trying to kill any non-condi player (SOR would be useless, HS has terrible throughput if not clearing condis, low dps pet gimping output), we are just building to fight a condimancer.

If you drop 1 of those full clears, you lose to the good necros. Passive clearing is unreliable, and 2 on demand clears on long cooldowns isn’t enough to stop their onslaught. Switching up to a wilderness knowledge build results in even less condi’s cleared per time.

Same can be said about fighting a trap ranger or engie: The only difference is that with these two, the damage is centered around them, so if you can stay out of ~500 with a ranged weapon you have a better chance. Staying out of range of the necro really isn’t going to happen though.

Condi-Mesmers can be countered with smaller on demand removal (shout clearing, or a full survival wilderness knowledge build), but their access to stealth means you probably aren’t going to kill them either.

It’s not a good state of the game when some of the best condi-clearing classes have to take every single clear available just to have even odds against necros. It’s not a good state of the game where everyone has to take -condi duration food to have a fair shot at beating a condi user. And where does that leave the classes with average to below average removal?

Raven.9603:

How would you beat a good, mostly dire condi necro (~20crit for his crit procs)?

You stay 1500 range and shoot arrows. Necro can’t do any damage at all.

Raven.9603:

there shouldnt be 40% condi duration food. it is too much of a benefit over people who dont take the counter -40% duration food.

imagine there was +25% power damage food. Everyone would feel forced to either go power and use that, or take -25% damage food.

This ^ if they had +25% or even +40% power damage food, you would hear the QQ from condi users from half a world away.

Raven.9603:

there shouldnt be 40% condi duration food. it is too much of a benefit over people who dont take the counter -40% duration food.

imagine there was +25% power damage food. Everyone would feel forced to either go power and use that, or take -25% damage food.

Currently, some classes are able to apply conditions at a rate that cannot be counted by any class except maybe necros and Ele’s who are allowed to freely ether renewal. By countered, I mean that on equal footing the counter class is more likely to win, not that that condi class does zero damage. Think of the best condi classes in the game (Necro, Mesmer, Engi, Ranger) and how you would go about building your class to beat them.

How would you beat a good, mostly dire condi necro (~20crit for his crit procs)?

On a ranger, a class with very strong condition removal, you would have to take -condi food, Lyssa Runes, Signet of Renewal, Healing Spring AND Empathic bond with a low-dps high HP pet (maybe 2 of them) to beat a condi-necro that is actually good. Thats 3 FULL clears and 3-4 passively removed conditions per 10sec. Never mind that it would be a completley horrible setup for trying to kill any non-condi player (SOR would be useless, HS has terrible throughput if not clearing condis, low dps pet gimping output), we are just building to fight a condimancer.

If you drop 1 of those full clears, you lose to the good necros. Passive clearing is unreliable, and 2 on demand clears on long cooldowns isn’t enough to stop their onslaught. Switching up to a wilderness knowledge build results in even less condi’s cleared per time.

Same can be said about fighting a trap ranger or engie: The only difference is that with these two, the damage is centered around them, so if you can stay out of ~500 with a ranged weapon you have a better chance. Staying out of range of the necro really isn’t going to happen though.

Condi-Mesmers can be countered with smaller on demand removal (shout clearing, or a full survival wilderness knowledge build), but their access to stealth means you probably aren’t going to kill them either.

It’s not a good state of the game when some of the best condi-clearing classes have to take every single clear available just to have even odds against necros. It’s not a good state of the game where everyone has to take -condi duration food to have a fair shot at beating a condi user. And where does that leave the classes with average to below average removal?

THIS. THIS! THIS right here is why I made this post. Someone who finally freaking gets it.

Spartacus.3192:

Raven.9603:

there shouldnt be 40% condi duration food. it is too much of a benefit over people who dont take the counter -40% duration food.

imagine there was +25% power damage food. Everyone would feel forced to either go power and use that, or take -25% damage food.

This ^ if they had +25% or even +40% power damage food, you would hear the QQ from condi users from half a world away.

Of course they would, because power and duration are not the same thing, you can’t even compare them.

Junkpile.7439:

Raven.9603:

How would you beat a good, mostly dire condi necro (~20crit for his crit procs)?

You stay 1500 range and shoot arrows. Necro can’t do any damage at all.

I specifically addressed out-ranging condi builds in the post. Kiting is viable against engies and rangers because of the close up nature of bonfire, traps, and bombs. It is feasable to stay more than 500 away from them with stealth and some cc’s. You are not going to kite a good necro who has 1200 range on staff and focus and DS and signets (all of which can chill) or 900 range on scepter and DS. He is either going to slow you down and get within 900, or he’s going to break LoS and force the fight into an area thats not so ridiculous.

coglin.1867:

I disagree.

It is no better or worse then direct damage. What I feel is the problem, are simply specific skills, and every profession has them, that apply abnormally high stack counts of a specific condition.

I often read complaints about conditions, only to find out the one complaining, isn’t utilizing all of the traits or skills avaliable to them to counter what their complaining about.

Your complaint in itself is so broad, it cannot support a real discussion, in my opinion. If you are going to complain about damage your taking, you should list the build your running, thay you are basing your complaint on. Unless you do that, you have no reason to blame design in my opinion. If you list builds with good cleansing, then you can have an argument to make. You could at the very least, list skills you feel are problematic, and suggest how they compare to equivalent direct damage skills.

As I see it the problem isn’t conditions, it is damage out put as a whole. Direct damage is no higher or lower then condition damage out put right now.

Sorry, you are very wrong.

I have condi clears, three or more of them without pets as a Ranger, and with some condi there is no clearing available that will EVER work.

Something is wrong when I clear all and still can’t clear many or any and am dead in less than three seconds without a stomp.

How should condibuild ever kill something if you would be able to remove every single condition on you?
It is not necessary to remove every single condi to win against condibuilds. With my main build (power melee ranger) i use 3 survivalskills for condiremove (20, 32, 48 sec cd) and nothing else, no -condi duration food/rune. And i can deal with many condibuilds (if they kite/run away it is very hard to kill them, but usually they can’t kill me either). Of course i loose sometimes against condibuilds, just like i loose to some powerbuilds, and in both cases it is often due to mistakes of my own.
If you take even more condi remove and a longbow and are still struggeling against condis, then yes, there is something wrong, but most likely not with your enemy.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

How should condibuild ever kill something if you would be able to remove every single condition on you?
It is not necessary to remove every single condi to win against condibuilds. With my main build (power melee ranger) i use 3 survivalskills for condiremove (20, 32, 48 sec cd) and nothing else, no -condi duration food/rune. And i can deal with many condibuilds (if they kite/run away it is very hard to kill them, but usually they can’t kill me either). Of course i loose sometimes against condibuilds, just like i loose to some powerbuilds, and in both cases it is often due to mistakes of my own.
If you take even more condi remove and a longbow and are still struggeling against condis, then yes, there is something wrong, but most likely not with your enemy.

The build I described does not come close to “removing every single condition on you”, and thats not what we are asking for. We are saying that either condi spam needs to be toned down so that you can mitagate enough of the damage to have a chance at winning with a few clears, or clears need to be turned up so that you aren’t forced into taking every single one you can get your hands on just to beat these classes. The only classes that really reach that level are necros and ele’s specifically designed for that.

Your ranger, with just 3 condi removal skills of 2 conditions each, would not beat a good condimancer. Suppose he gets a decent amount of bleeds or burn on you and then hits you with signet of spite. the damaging conditions are now so buried that you would have to burn ALL 3 of your condi removals just to get at the damaging ones that he buried. And thats not factoring if he had torment or perplexity procs. And it leaves you helpless for the rest of the fight.

A ranger with anything less than max condi cleanse will not beat a good condi necro on a fair encounter in the current wvw roaming meta. Same can be said for most other classes facing that necro.

Yea, those burns from dhuumfire are so op …

Condi necro is strong in 1vs1, yes, especially with full ds. Not unkillable though (maybe i haven’t met a good one yet, idk). But necros are slow and easy to focus down, so in general not the best (solo) roaming class. I’m fine if a class/build is strong in some situations as long it has clear weaknesses. Which is the case for (condi) necro.

And even if condi necro is op, this is no reason to nerf every other condi and hybrid build. As i already wrote somewhere, if a specific build is is op, nerf those things that make it op, but not everything else.

UmbraNoctis.1907:

Yea, those burns from dhuumfire are so op …

Condi necro is strong in 1vs1, yes, especially with full ds. Not unkillable though (maybe i haven’t met a good one yet, idk). But necros are slow and easy to focus down, so in general not the best (solo) roaming class. I’m fine if a class/build is strong in some situations as long it has clear weaknesses. Which is the case for (condi) necro.

And even if condi necro is op, this is no reason to nerf every other condi and hybrid build. As i already wrote somewhere, if a specific build is is op, nerf those things that make it op, but not everything else.

i wasnt complaining about dhuumfire being OP, it was just an example of a situation where he would not have been able to clear the most damaging conditions effecting him. there are lots of condi builds that are pretty op right now and thats because the problem isnt with any one specific build, it is a plethora of general issues.

• condi food
• burn stacking, on classes that can stack very high very quickly
• over abundance of cover conditions (perplexity, torment runes/sigils) without an increase in clearing.
• ridiculously low stat investment required. they need to do a better job at tying in crit and ferocity. condi builds have massively more defensive stats at the moment then their power counterparts.
• perplexity. there is a reason they dont let this in pvp. its too strong.

WTH happened. Couple days ago necro was weakest class in game. Did necro get some dumbfire boost last tuesday or something?

Raven.9603:

• condi food
• burn stacking, on classes that can stack very high very quickly
• over abundance of cover conditions (perplexity, torment runes/sigils) without an increase in clearing.
• ridiculously low stat investment required. they need to do a better job at tying in crit and ferocity. condi builds have massively more defensive stats at the moment then their power counterparts.
• perplexity. there is a reason they dont let this in pvp. its too strong.

food – yes, 40% is way too much, for both the + and the – condi duration food

burn – imo mainly on cele ele a real problem, i have not much problems against condi guards, ranger, and engi – some skills (instantcasts/unavoidable procs/buggy fire rings) could need slight adjustments though

cover condis – usually i have no problem with removing the most dangerous condis on my ranger

stats – higher defense yes, but lower dmg output against everything with decent condiclear. Have you ever tried full sinister in wvw? Same defense as zerker, but significantly weaker unless the enemy has 0 condiremove and facetanks everything.
You have to sacrifice less defensive stats for high condidmg but on the other hand you have to sacrifice less offensive stats for defense against condis.

perplexity – i don’t have problems with this rune, and most condibuilds use other ones anyways. Many runes/sigils are not aviable in pvp without being even close to op.

Junkpile.7439:

WTH happened. Couple days ago necro was weakest class in game. Did necro get some dumbfire boost last tuesday or something?

People are trying to throw everything they have at something they dont like.

This is how low and desperate it has gotten.

coglin.1867:

Sirendor.1394:

TheLastNobody.8319:

I will never understand why people hate conditions so much…

Passive play.

1. Apply condition
2. Kite
3. Enemy clears condition after x damage

Repeat until 3. isn’t longer possible because enemy is through his condi clears.

I do not think passive play means what you think it means. You have to land a skill to apply conditions.. Precisely like you have to land a skill to apply direct damage.

It is a very simple concept.

Landing a skill/Taking a button press action = Applying Damage

I think part of the issue here, is a fundamental lack of understanding of how the game works.

Sirendor.1394:

Step 2 makes no sense in a direct damage scenario, because it does not benefit damage output in melee situations. Condition damage however, still hits the enemy regardless of application.

No, condition damage does continue hit the enemy.

Direct damage attack lands and does 5000 damage instantly.

Condition application skill lands, does 1000 damage per second for 5 seconds. That’s 5000 damage over 5s.

It is true that you need to apply it once. But after you have done that (and your condi has a sufficient duration), it requires no further action of the player.

Example given: trap ranger. He drops his traps, waits till you walk in them and then all he has to do is wait till you drop dead. It requires no further activity on the trap ranger’s end. Of course usually you have at least 1 or 2 condi clears, but once you’re through these, it’s simply a waiting game.

If a powerbuild hits you with enouh dmg once, it requires no further action either, except from stomping.

Oh and Trap ranger is so incredibly easy to counter. Once you know, it is a trapper, nobody with at least halfway decent condiremove should have much problems against one. Trap ranger is countered by kiting, AI, immob, cc, high burst … Just DON’T STAND IN THOSE TRAPS. There are way stronger condibuilds than trap ranger.

Sirendor.1394:

coglin.1867:

Sirendor.1394:

TheLastNobody.8319:

I will never understand why people hate conditions so much…

Passive play.

1. Apply condition
2. Kite
3. Enemy clears condition after x damage

Repeat until 3. isn’t longer possible because enemy is through his condi clears.

I do not think passive play means what you think it means. You have to land a skill to apply conditions.. Precisely like you have to land a skill to apply direct damage.

It is a very simple concept.

Landing a skill/Taking a button press action = Applying Damage

I think part of the issue here, is a fundamental lack of understanding of how the game works.

Sirendor.1394:

Step 2 makes no sense in a direct damage scenario, because it does not benefit damage output in melee situations. Condition damage however, still hits the enemy regardless of application.

No, condition damage does continue hit the enemy.

Direct damage attack lands and does 5000 damage instantly.

Condition application skill lands, does 1000 damage per second for 5 seconds. That’s 5000 damage over 5s.

It is true that you need to apply it once. But after you have done that (and your condi has a sufficient duration), it requires no further action of the player.

Example given: trap ranger. He drops his traps, waits till you walk in them and then all he has to do is wait till you drop dead. It requires no further activity on the trap ranger’s end. Of course usually you have at least 1 or 2 condi clears, but once you’re through these, it’s simply a waiting game.

If you die from ranger traps alone, it is a L2P issue. If your a poor enough player that you continually stand in a red circle damage field long enough to reapply conditions. Very bad game play is not a reasonable argument for nerfing anything.

If your build is poor enough that you cannot cleanse, and traps alone kill you because you have zero vitality, and no traits to cleanse or cleansing skills, your playing a poor build. Running a poor build is not a reasonable argument for nerfing anything.