Q:
It’s been a long time coming that something needs to be done about condition output and/or defense in pvp (wvw and spvp) modes. Y’all can’t leave this condition system as is much longer because it’s not healthy for competitive gameplay. Either tone down condition damage… or cap the number of different conditions a player can be affected by… or add immunity timers after cleansing… or tie in condition damage reduction/mitigation to stats… or combinations of these….
?
(edited by Swagger.1459)
Do you know any mmos that have such restrictions on classes or gameplay? How do you feel this will change how necromancer work?
Do you know any mmos that have such restrictions on classes or gameplay? How do you feel this will change how necromancer work?
First question answer… I knew an mmo with a much more fleshed out cc and counter cc system, that also had different cc rulesets in pvp modes…
Second question answer… It’s pretty obvious that some profession balance changes would need to be made if the devs were to work on the cc system in pvp modes.
Do you know any other mmo where skills/spells/classes/builds do heavy raw damage plus heavy crit damage plus heavy damage over time damage plus heavy negative status effects wrapped into one?
Do you know of any mmo that does not provide players damage reduction options, in some form, to damage over time skills?
Are you aware that condition output vastly outweighs a players ability to manage those conditions?
Are you aware that more than just necros pump out conditions?
Do you know that the devs are just starting to make balance changes between pve, wvw and spvp?
(edited by Swagger.1459)
You say that conditions need to be capped, then you talk about cases when some class/build does both condi, crit and raw damage. What about builds that only do one of these ? What about those that only do heavy condition damage but no raw dmg nor crits ?
What you mention seems to be more like a specific class/build balance problem. You also seem to find solution to this in imposing limits, similar to those that were in place year and half ago which were changed after summer patch 2015.
Not sure if that would work.
Condition damage relies on only one stat to boost its damage, leaving a lot more room for build diversity, whereas power builds basically need 3 stats. Conditions hit through invulnerability. Several conditions also have secondary effects like cripple, chill, immobilize, fear, vulnerability, poison, slow, taunt, blind, weakness. And there are just too many kitten conditions that can be tossed around and spammed, and there is just not enough cleanse to deal with it. What good is a cleanse skill that can remove 1 or 2 random conditions with a 20s cooldown when you can be constantly spammed with a bunch of conditions that do thousands of damage per second. Conditions can also be extended in duration and stacked.
Until anet starts to seriously separate skill balancing, change mechanics between game modes and stop changing wvw because of pve or pvp and vice versa, we wont see any actual changes. This would require them to actually have a clue as to what people are doing in wvw.
Mmm, this concerns with a similar topic and so I think it is necessary to quote myself here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Blocking-as-a-stack/first#post6197550
Skip to 2. Regarding condi damage and degeneration.
This is more of a symptom of not using past experience to alleviate potential problems of balance (e.g. in GW 1).
For the topic at hand: “block, evade, invulns, immunity (e.g. endure pain, resistance).”
1. In GW1 there used to be “Blocking” and “Evading” to avoid damage from physical attacks. Eventually it was determined they would only use “Blocking” for easier balance (e.g. they could just have unblockable hits instead of including unavoidable hits) That being said. there were still healing/enchantment spells to negate damage.
https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Evade
In Guild Wars 2 there are more ways to avoid damage: block, evade (by ability), evade (by dodge), invulns (by abilities), immunity (by resistance, stability, and abilities), reflects, projectile destruction. Am I missing things?
Learning from the past in GW 1, it means things are harder to balance. To counter balance said things you have to put in: Unblockables (can’t be reflected/blocked but can be evaded), Unavoidables (lines and rings that can’t be evaded/blocked but can be passed over with stability), Boon Rips (removes immunity limited to stability and resistance not abilities). No counter for invulns besides loading them up on condis before hand.
2. Regarding condi damage. In GW 1, degeneration (mostly what condi damage is now) is capped, and damage is consistent. This is because it was armor ignoring, and functionally it was suppose to be spread across the party to provide pressure on a group’s healing ability.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Health_degeneration
In GW 2, due to the stacking system of condis to compensate for damage sponge enemies, their function is to “stay on target.” This is probably why people use it for roaming/dueling. This also means some classes still retained burst ability with condi damage alongside beefy-ness provided from some gear stat allocations.
Bear in mind, that degeneration and most of the hex system of GW1 were consolidated into GW2’s condi damage (no doubt with the intention of being easier to balance). This meant you didn’t need a condi cleanse and a hex cleanse.
And I still mostly agree with the above.
It’s been a long time coming that something needs to be done about condition output and/or defense in pvp (wvw and spvp) modes. Y’all can’t leave this condition system as is much longer because it’s not healthy for competitive gameplay. Either tone down condition damage… or cap the number of different conditions a player can be affected by… or add immunity timers after cleansing… or tie in condition damage reduction/mitigation to stats… or combinations of these….
?
What competitiveness are you talking about? The competition of who can stack certain servers to have better/more numbers and coverage then the other servers can even try to handle? Sorry man that’s no where near being competitive at all. That’s just what card players call “People stacking the deck”. People don’t stack decks to engage in competition, people stack deck for easy near effortless gains/ one sided matches.
As a solo roamer among a bunch of mega blobbing zerglings. I am starting to change my mind about condi builds. They sorta give solo players the much needed mobility, damage, and defense in a package to deal with the increasingly amount of players who just want to mega blob you down and emote over your body as if they are good. Then the zerglings have the nerve to wonder why more and more roamers are starting to use these cheesy builds.
Just as I have to deal with non competitive players(most of the current GW2’s WvW community) bandwagoning just to stack servers and mega blob for one sided matches. The non competitive players who refuse to actually learn how to play the game, instead of pulling Blobgate tactics and learning how to server stack, should have to deal with the roamers and their builds that takes full advantage of zerglings as mentioned above.
When ANet take away or stop giving tools/weapons to players who have no drive or capability to learn how to play the game. To use against and win by default against players who spend time theory crafting, testing and practicting to become good as the game. Then we can start taking away some of the equalizers the roamers currently have against mega blobing zerglings that just blob up, face roll their keyboard, and hope that what ever they hit died so they can get loot and reward track progression.
Stop trying to hide behind the word competitiveness. You don’t want competition. You just want to be the one dominating with little to no effort at all. That’s kinda the opposite of competition.
ATM just based off of ANet’s design and the community’s need to dominate by what ever needs necessary WvW is far from or ever being a competitive RvR game mode. Score is current meaningless and worthless. The only thing to has value currently in WvW is the fights that the roamers are taking place in. Sorry to break it to you, yes I know all too well sometimes the honest truth stings like or worst then African Honey Bee’s.
As of right now I’m swapping my Power Mesmer build to Condi Mesmer.
There is a saying. As the enemy continue to grow in numbers, so must the intensity and brutality as well as the complexities and depth of your weapons and tactics used to combat such a massive foe. That’s a very true saying.
(edited by Reaper Alim.4176)
Make light aura mitigate a percentage of the incoming condition damage and reflect that portion back (like retaliation does with power damage). This would also give us more of a reason to blast light fields. Just need to make the outgoing duration something reasonable like 3-4 seconds per blast or something.
(edited by Brutal Augus.5917)
Make light aura mitigate a percentage of the incoming condition damage and reflect that portion back (like retaliation does with power damage). This would also give us more of a reason to blast light fields. Just need to make the outgoing duration something reasonable like 3-4 seconds per blast or something.
If protection and retaliation were actually changed to work against conditions, that would really go a long way towards actual balancing.
Buffing or nerfing things won’t make a difference when the entire concept of condition application and condition removal was designed incorrectly.
The current design simply cannot produce engagements where condi is balanced because either application or removal will dominate. I’m not sure how that could be changed without reworking essentially the entire game, though.
If protection and retaliation were actually changed to work against conditions, that would really go a long way towards actual balancing.
Retaliation works vs condi builds just as well as vs power builds because it triggers on each hit regardless of the actual dmg (it is not a reflect), and condi builds have to hit you too (only exception is ghost thief). Since retal dmg scales with the power of the source, it is actually more benefitial for power builds to have his boon.
And protection is already a very powerful boon, it shouln’t get buffed. Or should resistance grant 100% reduction of direct dmg too? To make it fair, you know … And then please let me cleanse dircet dmg too, i don’t want to be forced to run some toughness to not get oneshot …
Seriously, the main problem with conditions is not a balance problem. It is more a psychological one. People dislike conditions for various reasons which are often based on misinformation and lack of knowledge and this will never change, because people refuse to learn. Otherwise there wouldn’t be the same wrong arguments over and over again in threads like this …
The current design simply cannot produce engagements where condi is balanced because either application or removal will dominate.
That’s like saying power dmg can’t be balanced because either the dmg or the healing will dominate. Condi cleanse is not the only defense against condis …
(edited by UmbraNoctis.1907)
Condi class, at least in spvp are not so faceroll. If u play condi engi for example ( with pistol pistol ) you have to setup your fight and to avoid some matchup ( warriors and necro can kill you easily so you have to fight against them being ready to disengage ). Condi mesmer is really strong but quite balanced imho, at least in spvp. Resistance is quite strong and a good dh or a good warrior can kill you. And being effective with mesmer requires more skill than other professions becouse you make damage shattering . On necro i can not say nothing becouse i don’t play it but , for what i tried, playing condition based build is not easier than power ones .
To truely balance it they would need to remove conditions from sigils, runes, traits and combo fields and leave the conditions only on the skill bar. It’s pretty silly when playing condi longbow I can use two buttons, on a traditionally power weapon, to cause 10-15 bleed, torment, poison, immobilize and 10 vulnerability.
To truely balance it they would need to remove conditions from sigils, runes, traits and combo fields and leave the conditions only on the skill bar. It’s pretty silly when playing condi longbow I can use two buttons, on a traditionally power weapon, to cause 10-15 bleed, torment, poison, immobilize and 10 vulnerability.
Can we also remove all of the direct damage sigils, and runes. IE. Strenght, Pack, Ogre, Force, and Air. It’s only fair, no?
To truely balance it they would need to remove conditions from sigils, runes, traits and combo fields and leave the conditions only on the skill bar. It’s pretty silly when playing condi longbow I can use two buttons, on a traditionally power weapon, to cause 10-15 bleed, torment, poison, immobilize and 10 vulnerability.
Can we also remove all of the direct damage sigils, and runes. IE. Strenght, Pack, Ogre, Force, and Air. It’s only fair, no?
There is a difference between +more condi/dmg and flat out extra sources. So yeah they could remove the damaging sigils like fire and air but realize that those don’t “cover” like unique conditions to a profession will.
That’s like saying power dmg can’t be balanced because either the dmg or the healing will dominate. Condi cleanse is not the only defense against condis …
There are builds out there that can live through a single marauder’s attacks pretty much indefinitely so that’s mostly true. The difference is that power retains its effectiveness in groups and focus fire can overcome this.
Condi cleanse is the only thing that you ever need against condi. I can take my full pve zerker ele into wvw and as long as I take ether renewal, I may as well be immune to all condis. I’ve gotten into fights with 2 PU mesmers at once while doing this and barely even noticed their attacks. Back when I used to gvg the general assumption we used was that no condi could be counted on to last for more than 1 second. Enough condi clear will always make all condis irrelevant.
I think the most balanced condi builds are the ones that need precision to work. The worst offenders tend to be dire mesmers and thieves, because they are bulky and have a lot of sustain skills.
Tie more condi damage to precision and suddenly these builds have to maintain a high crit chance to do enough damage.
I think the most balanced condi builds are the ones that need precision to work. The worst offenders tend to be dire mesmers and thieves, because they are bulky and have a lot of sustain skills.
Tie more condi damage to precision and suddenly these builds have to maintain a high crit chance to do enough damage.
Or one thing they can do is scale the damage with duration, for example the longer the condition is on you the higher the damage ticks, not including damage modifiers and stacks. So for example, instead of a condition doing 1k damage per tick immediately, it would have to be on a target for a few seconds before reaching that number, not counting stacks and modifiers.
Condition builds. Yeah, you pick one up every so often but a part of you dies inside when you realize how ez mode it is and get bored. Thats how it is for me atleast. I always return to power builds. It’s just significantly easier to play condition builds. So much so that it’s boring.
Condition builds. Yeah, you pick one up every so often but a part of you dies inside when you realize how ez mode it is and get bored. Thats how it is for me atleast. I always return to power builds. It’s just significantly easier to play condition builds. So much so that it’s boring.
Say that with a straight face, when you constantly have the out-manned buff through out the whole day. And can’t do jack to solve that problem outside of spending IRL $$$ or do a boat load of PvE to get the gems to get out of such situations.
I used to be a condi hater like you. Then I got fed up and took matters into my own hands. Rerolled my Power Ascended light armor to Dire light armor for my Chrono. At least now I can disengage from the mob of potatoes. And not get blob down by 20 plus of them and emoted upon, as if they beat me with any type of skill what so ever.
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