Applied Fortitude and Strength to be removed

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Posted by: Samis.1750

Samis.1750

Good change. German website apparently says one gets the buffs, though possibly with lower stat boosts, at rank 100 and 200. Makes the game easier for new players trying to get into WvW. Now scouts and roamers can get them faster.

Tarnished Coast

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Posted by: Lunacy Solacio.6514

Lunacy Solacio.6514

Good change. German website says one gets the buffs, though possibly lower, at rank 100 and 200. Makes the game easier for new players trying to get into WvW. Now scouts and roamers can get them faster.

It has been stated in multiple places now, and in this very thread early on, the german site is wrong.

Anet is removing them completely.

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Posted by: Kraljevo.2801

Kraljevo.2801

Good. Doesn’t change the fact that we still need new masteries.

Long overdue.

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Posted by: Sungtaro.6493

Sungtaro.6493

Don’t you still get massive bonus for being a veteran of wvw anyways, a couple extra stacks of stats can’t be that big of a difference maker, and in fact, you can refocus your rank points to other things too.

Uh a lot of people complaining already have everything. There is nothing to refocus. This is a new balance point. Think condition builds will be much stronger in small scale fights and the balance will shift towards the higher vitality based classes. The vitality gap will shift back to what it was.

Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence.

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Posted by: Ravezaar.4951

Ravezaar.4951

once again u are just destroying WvW for the ones that actually still play it. tnx Anet

Underjordens Furste 80 Necro Piken-server
Servant of Dhuum

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Posted by: nightblood.7910

nightblood.7910

This is a great thing, power creep roaming has been out of control in WvW. Honestly if they removed food, utility buffs and stacking sigils, it would get even better and likely you would see less people staying in the safety of the zerg.

I jumped from WvW to PvP and PvP is so much more balanced and a real challenge.

You just described perfectly why there is a game mode called PVP and one called WvW. You want a game mode where everyone is standardized, “balanced” with virtually no advantage whatsoever with everyone using virtually the same thing ?

Go to PVP.

But… why does that matter when NO ONE has applied fortitude and strength? It still becomes the same thing. Sure you have less vitality and less power – the enemy got less vitality and less power as well. Equal terms. But its still PvE gear, with all its options and diversity, far more than PvP setups.

We managed to do WvW just fine before the WvW skill system was even thought of. No bonuses to siege (remember when arrowcarts did no damage?), no player buffs, no borderlands buff etc.

This is also a good buff to guild fights in open WvW. No more one side killing everyone and them wanting to have a second go at each other, but now its completely loopsided because one side has buffs and the other dont. Isnt this what we want? This change will be great for balancing small scale and roamers. No more coming fresh out of spawn and meeting that 1 thief that’s so buffed he can barely walk right. Again, isnt this what we want?

I really dont understand why people are so negative. The added buff was meaningless to begin with. It didnt make WvW better.

My point exactly, when you get rid of Buff Wars, you open up roaming to a whole new set of people and classes. When you can stack up 3.2K power in a toon like that, it doesnt balance with vitality at all.

There is hardly any counter play available and mostly its who gets first hit. Because WvW is buff wars.

It also tames the thieves running SA in WvW. Another complaint amongst many WvW’s. They cant stack as much power and still run SA at the same time. With the buff’s coming to SA and the new trait system. Its likely a good thing. (BTW I run thief).

Now they get rid of food, utility, and stacking sigils, Someone cant trait defensively and still allow them to max damage. It will actually have to be the give and take all MMO’s have called balance.

The more they reduce power creep and take the edge off the total attribute points that can be gained, the more roaming, small scale fighting will happen.

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Posted by: Jski.6180

Jski.6180

once again u are just destroying WvW for the ones that actually still play it. tnx Anet

Most would say Applied Fortitude and Strength where the thing that was destroying wvw for a lot of ppl due to “power creep” of such effects.

Main : Jski Imaginary ELE (Necromancer)
Guild : OBEY (The Legacy) I call it Obay , TLC (WvW) , UNIV (other)
Server : FA

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Posted by: Taxidriver.2043

Taxidriver.2043

I want refund for the gold I spent buying wxp booster plz.

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Posted by: Ravezaar.4951

Ravezaar.4951

I invested alot of time during 3y just to be kittened out now, cause Anet want to favor the new players. this sux

Underjordens Furste 80 Necro Piken-server
Servant of Dhuum

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Posted by: Lunacy Solacio.6514

Lunacy Solacio.6514

snip
Now they get rid of food, utility, and stacking sigils, Someone cant trait defensively and still allow them to max damage. It will actually have to be the give and take all MMO’s have called balance.

The more they reduce power creep and take the edge off the total attribute points that can be gained, the more roaming, small scale fighting will happen.

I doubt it tbh, because the other changes promote ktrain too much, and the loss of these stacks won’t encourage small scale anymore than having them really. But want to get rid of food and utility buffs? As said earlier, goto sPvP. Should some of the foods be rebalanced? Probably. I disagree with some other things posted but I’ll just address this. btw, I typically run thief, and often don’t even use food nor care about guard stacks because they aren’t needed by my d/d build.

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Posted by: Tyreal.5230

Tyreal.5230

Can’t reach rank 230 but WvW is full of nothing but karma trains and zergs? Completely untrue.

Guild: guildless
Elementalist: Sheva Alamarr
Guardian: Stella Alamarr

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Posted by: Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365

Ovalkvadratcylinder.9365

Everyone’s getting increased base stats anyways…

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Posted by: Lunacy Solacio.6514

Lunacy Solacio.6514

Everyone’s getting increased base stats anyways…

to offset the loss of stats gained via traits…

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Posted by: Lord Kuru.3685

Lord Kuru.3685

Everyone’s getting increased base stats anyways…

to offset the loss of stats gained via traits…

Totally worthless since you have no choice which stats you get. It just means less build options — which is likely what Anet wants since their balancing abilities are very poor.

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Posted by: morrolan.9608

morrolan.9608

Mind boggling really, no-one has a problem with these any more because every WvW player has them now. Perhaps they should consider making the other lines more desirable instead of nerfing. The only thing I can think is that once again they are reducing the game to the lowest common denominator and focussing on casuals.

How about working on stuff the CDis (remember them) revealed that people wanted: larger groups, realistic WvW achievements for example.

Jade Quarry [SoX]
Miranda Zero – Ele / Twitch Zero – Mes / Chargrin Soulboom – Engi
Aliera Zero – Guardian / Reaver Zero – Necro

(edited by morrolan.9608)

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Posted by: roamzero.9486

roamzero.9486

I think those buffs were a neat gameplay element, like stacking sigils, they introduced the idea of “leveling” your character for the duration of a gameplay session and with it introduced more risk and reward elements (because death reset the buffs, it alters how people play).

The same way getting (and keeping) the buffs was satisfying, it was also satisfying to kill fully stacked players.

Removal of these elements will just make WvW more shallow, and if they keep doing stuff like this, nothing will be left but a mindless zergblobbing husk :/

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Posted by: Cares Less.9631

Cares Less.9631

Pathetic really, never seen a company so intent on listening to the minority whiners, soon all builds will be the same, look at Revenant, great profession no choice in building it, Choose a weapon, choose two legends, and traits is the only option to specialise, stop dumbing the game down ANET please, for every step you move foward, it’s a massive step back and failure to listen to your player base.

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Posted by: CrimsonNeonite.1048

CrimsonNeonite.1048

I still don’t see it is as a game changer like alot of people are complaining about, like all other major changes like those changes to Professions every 4-6 months; players shouldn’t be afraid of having to adapt.
Even I roam around with 13k HP sometimes, I get rekt if I don’t play more carefully, but it’s more enjoyable than playing as a Thief, who plays full Shadow Arts or full Acro.

Just give us more WvW abilities and better rewards like pvp get’s, without breaking the balance in WvW, even more as it is.
All this gave veteran players is an advantage that newer players have to grind for, it effects everyone; from Blobs, Guild Raids and small scalers anyway, for once nobody would have even more of an advantage thanks to something that’s fairly easy to grind for.

Scrubio
Plays completely opposite professions to his main Teef.

(edited by CrimsonNeonite.1048)

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Posted by: Bubby.6475

Bubby.6475

This is a really lame change tbh. I have only one complete set of ascended armor specifically built for wvw and I min/maxed my stats with the guard stacks in mind.

Sad times.

FFWC forum moderators. :)

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Posted by: nightblood.7910

nightblood.7910

It looks like they actually going to buff more things than just power and vitality, you just have to work for them and you dont get to keep them for long though.

Shrines

Along the outskirts of each of the three elemental keeps are three shrines of matching elements, making a total of nine shrines. Much like a sentry post, these can be captured by a single player. Controlling shrines gives you two important advantages. First, by interacting with a shrine that your team controls, you will gain a five-minute elemental blessing effect. This effect increases both your movement speed and either your attack damage, critical-strike chance, or defense, depending on which elemental blessing you received. More importantly, the other reason to control shrines is that they confer important strategic bonuses to the team that controls the keep of the same element. And for each shrine controlled, the team controlling the keep gains an additional benefit. For example, for each Shrine of Air controlled, the defending team gains access to things like jump pads, wind turrets that can blow invaders off the cliff face, and even immunity to falling damage while within the region. At the fire keep, controlling Shrines of Fire grants the defending team the ability to transform into fiery hounds, turns on fireball-spitting gargoyle turrets, and grants immunity to burning and lava damage. The earth keep gains automatic defenses like lodestones that impair enemy movement, pop-up rock walls that block off sections of the canyons when invaders approach, and a sandstorm that provides stealth for allies within.

(edited by nightblood.7910)

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Posted by: Lunacy Solacio.6514

Lunacy Solacio.6514

Are you for or against buffs? Just a bit back you wanted all buffs removed, now you are going out of your way to show that there will be all these buffs possible (which really seems like they will be easy to disable or steal so little actual benefit really)

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Posted by: Gotejjeken.1267

Gotejjeken.1267

Grr..just as I got them too.

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Posted by: Xillllix.3485

Xillllix.3485

Applied fortitude and Applied Strength are the only WvW masteries that actually did something. This is another massive fail to remove the only things that were slightly rewarding for playing WvW a long time.

You should at least unlock for us unique WvW armor skins at each rank tiers (Silver/Gold/Platinum) to compensate the fact that WvW players make 50 times less gold than PvE players.

And this:

I want refund for the gold I spent buying wxp booster plz.

(edited by Xillllix.3485)

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Posted by: TJgalon.5012

TJgalon.5012

Bad change imo.

It would have been fine if the guard stacks were never introduced in the first place but we’ve had it for so long now that I (and I’m sure many others) have geared our characters based on those stacks.

Don’t make me have to spend thousands of gold having to re-gear all my characters. Ascended gear is ridiculously expensive and I don’t want to have to do it again. It doesn’t even take long to get 230 points.

not having the stacks is not going to change anything though, since your not the only one losing it, right?

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Posted by: Deli.1302

Deli.1302

Bad change imo.

It would have been fine if the guard stacks were never introduced in the first place but we’ve had it for so long now that I (and I’m sure many others) have geared our characters based on those stacks.

Don’t make me have to spend thousands of gold having to re-gear all my characters. Ascended gear is ridiculously expensive and I don’t want to have to do it again. It doesn’t even take long to get 230 points.

not having the stacks is not going to change anything though, since your not the only one losing it, right?

Firstly, *you’re.
Secondly, good job totally not getting the point. If you geared your character a certain way and anet was about to totally invalidate all the time and gold you put into it, how would you feel?

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Posted by: TJgalon.5012

TJgalon.5012

Myself, I adapt. Yea i may be a little upset, but i am failing to see how removing it changes it, you can still play the same way, more so, not having it for anyone means still equal ground it seems.

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Posted by: nightblood.7910

nightblood.7910

Are you for or against buffs? Just a bit back you wanted all buffs removed, now you are going out of your way to show that there will be all these buffs possible (which really seems like they will be easy to disable or steal so little actual benefit really)

I can do with or without them. I really think it gives better skillful play without them, but I do fine with them as well.

You actually have to read your opponent, youre not going to gank them down to nothing almost instantly, you actually have to put up a fight without all these buffs.

But as I did tonight, I can run around ganking people down from stealth all night long.

I also dont understand the whole “This is rewarding for players who have been playing for a long time.” Its the first dag on thing you put points in and does not take a long time to accumulate this. I have it on all my toons, as you only have to get it on one. You have to have it because well its there and everyone else runs it.

I dont even comprehend the ideal of it being a reward for being a veteran of the game. Any new player can rack those up in a week.

(edited by nightblood.7910)

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Posted by: TJgalon.5012

TJgalon.5012

out of curisoy, how many level does it take to hit max abilty, since i just recently hit 110 and that was a lot of effort it seem.

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Posted by: nightblood.7910

nightblood.7910

out of curisoy, how many level does it take to hit max abilty, since i just recently hit 110 and that was a lot of effort it seem.

For guard stacks? 230.

Which puts you at a bronze recruit. I dont understand how that equates to “Veteran of the game” but whatever.

(edited by nightblood.7910)

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Posted by: TJgalon.5012

TJgalon.5012

well that just for the two abilty our of all of them, i for one focus on other things too.

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Posted by: nightblood.7910

nightblood.7910

well that just for the two abilty our of all of them, i for one focus on other things too.

1390 for all WvW abilities.

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Posted by: TJgalon.5012

TJgalon.5012

man that is a way long time of wvw, so is not, a little good at lowering that number a little, to help entice new placers into wvw fun, making them not feel that moution is so high they never will get there? it all about the fun of a game anyways.

(edited by TJgalon.5012)

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Posted by: Soof.8763

Soof.8763

I am one of the few that have hit Diamond Assaulter in WXP and Ultimate Dominator in the game. My intention for leveling was to get the next skills that would come with achievement points in WXP. Now I see that you have taken away some skills for less than a reasonable purpose. Soon we will won’t be able to use weapons to play, like the Boy Scouts can’t use water guns and water balloons.

The only way that we can get the attention of the developers is through the $$$ generated through accounts, in game gold, and in game purchases of gems. Not sure if I will be playing much longer and have no desire to PvE with the new expansion coming out. I don’t think I can trust that you will have sufficient content for those who play WvW.

I am on the last bit of patience with Anet and their ruination of WvW through the 2 years of nerfs and no real expansion in WvW.

No sure that I will be playing much longer. There are other choices out there that can be made. Too bad as I had a great time playing. When this nerf hits, I will probably let my account go dormant. I am certain you will be losing the WvW players in the future.

Don’t think you much care as most of your revenue is through the PvE’ers who like to fancy up their toons. Have fun PvE’ers. Not knocking the PvE’ers as I have close to 20k achievement points.

Gehn Gis
Diamond Assaulter (Presently WxP level 6,922)
Ultimate Dominator
10,000 plus yak hides (which is funny)

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Posted by: Reborn.2934

Reborn.2934

ascended armor with their +www resistance infusions became more important now

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Posted by: Steve Whitley.8359

Steve Whitley.8359

the only “consistency” anet is known for is their inability to leave unbroken things alone.

they “fixed” fully functional dungeons.
they “fixed” fully functional pvp
they’re about to “fix” fully functional wvw

history showed that when they fixed dungeons (used to be able to run various ones at different levels < 80) people stopped playing them.

they fixed pvp most all the people who played pvp stopped playing

now we’re fixing wvw… well i cant imagine history will be any different. i’m sure anet is just hedging their bets that like what has happened in all these cases, other people who never played the game they originally created will play this “new” sad (give me a few more dollars so my game sales numbers gets a boost and I dont look so pathetic) version for a few months, spend some money then quit too.

as their sales figures show: http://global.ncsoft.com/global/ir/earnings.aspx#none this route has not done well thus far. not sure who has this master plan, but if it were me, i think i’d find a way to appease the existing player base.

take valve: Half Life launched in 1998, counter-strike came out a year later, and that game in a fairly similar form to the 1999 version is still available today (dont know the actual sales numbers, the game is fairly inexpensive but is microtransaction based now and server lists are long and always populated), and valve continues to grow, has divorced its parent company and it set to take on the world.

you dont mess with success. if you do you fail.

gg gw2.

Old Janx // [THG] Jade Quarry / Seafarer’s Rest
secessit viri bellatores

(edited by Steve Whitley.8359)

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Posted by: Spurnshadow.3678

Spurnshadow.3678

No one will really miss applied strength (100 power isn’t a game changer), but losing applied fortitude is a BIG hit to all the glass builds out there. :-(

Good. I don’t think they intended (like most things in WvW) to exist in the first place. The whole system seemed like something cooked up over a drunken weekend.
This will bring the whole of WvW back to a balance that existed before my glass thief could have 17K health.

Blackgate Native. It takes tremendous strength and skill to pull a lever.

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Posted by: Spurnshadow.3678

Spurnshadow.3678

Applied fortitude and Applied Strength are the only WvW masteries that actually did something. This is another massive fail to remove the only things that were slightly rewarding for playing WvW a long time.

You should at least unlock for us unique WvW armor skins at each rank tiers (Silver/Gold/Platinum) to compensate the fact that WvW players make 50 times less gold than PvE players.

And this:

I want refund for the gold I spent buying wxp booster plz.

Wow, you nuts? Just about every siege mastery has a couple new skills added to siege. I’ll take those things over extra power/health any day. You can’t adjust your armor or food to send a supply drain cow into a mob.

Blackgate Native. It takes tremendous strength and skill to pull a lever.

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Posted by: apharma.3741

apharma.3741

I think a lot of people who are complaining are being very short sighted at the moment. Yes you may lose the 2500 health from applied fortitude and that’s a lot of some meta zerk builds. However this is coming with a lot of trait changes.

Someone mentioned the meta ele build, well, you’re getting 3 full trait lines now, revamped and more powerful traits, blasting staff as baseline. Quite frankly all it means is if you were running full zerk you might consider an extra PVT piece or to take an extra defensive trait. Many will be picking up renewing stamina and the GM minor in water is 25% outgoing healing which is a massive buff.

It’s also worth pointing out that a lot of people do not do WvW more than casually or at all. I saw a photo of blacktide, underworld and barach bay from 2 years and I honestly couldn’t believe the numbers from back then. BT and UW are now T9 and T8 and I have never seen that many from either them recently.

TLDR: trait changes will make people stronger and WvW in its current state isn’t attracting people. It needs shaking up.

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Posted by: TyPin.9860

TyPin.9860

Everyone’s getting increased base stats anyways…

to offset the loss of stats gained via traits…

Totally worthless since you have no choice which stats you get. It just means less build options — which is likely what Anet wants since their balancing abilities are very poor.

This kind of statement makes me mad. The GW2 build system is actually very complex and unique. And so far the balancing is well done for the majority of players. Just because ppl perceive some things as unfair, doesn’t mean it is. And just because the top tier kids chose to stick with a certain meta, doesn’t mean that this is ANet’s fault.

[ROSE] – Fissure of Woe
Chronomancy works, I am proof of it. Now stop asking me questions. Time must be preserved!

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Posted by: TyPin.9860

TyPin.9860

Also, ppl should stop whining about those two boons. Not will only you have less power and health, everyone else will have too (for apparently all veterans have those boons). That means, if you are on a zerker build, you actually won’t need the extra dmg (cuz every1 else has less health) and the extra health (cuz every1 else has less dmg)…

[ROSE] – Fissure of Woe
Chronomancy works, I am proof of it. Now stop asking me questions. Time must be preserved!

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Posted by: Baldrick.8967

Baldrick.8967

The Applied Fortitude and Applied Strength effects have been removed.

Thee goes my build…thanks, great ‘improvements’ by dumbing it all down.

WvW player. Doing another world completion for my next Legendary. Hater of mini-games.

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Posted by: Orochimaru.4730

Orochimaru.4730

I think this highlights the loss of players really.

All those players who are still here from launch, or even the last year will have all the masteries. But as players leave you are left with newer players.
But these new players have low WvW ranks and so fewer buffs, meaning they have a disadvantage when coming to WvW.

But lowering the mastery levels just means those of us with surplus points will get more surplus points! It’s a bad fix for a problem that doesnt really exist.

If anet want to improve WvW they should improve it, not come up with silly ideas which may ruin WvW for all!

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Posted by: TyPin.9860

TyPin.9860

@Orochimaru:
And how are they ruining WvW for all, when, to your account, they improve things for newcomers?

[ROSE] – Fissure of Woe
Chronomancy works, I am proof of it. Now stop asking me questions. Time must be preserved!

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Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

All those players who are still here from launch

Which is exactly the type of players that should remember the time before masteries and probably the same players that whined like little kittens when they where added and obviously OP. It was a pointless addition for a system no one requested to begin with.

I fail to see any point you are trying to make.

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Posted by: Sarrs.4831

Sarrs.4831

How does this ruin wvw again?…

Nalhadia – Kaineng

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Posted by: GROMIT.7829

GROMIT.7829

Good because by removing this and hopefully the stacking sigils you create a more level playing field, this in turn creates a much more healthy competetive enviroment.

Running around killing NPC’s to be more powerful than someone on a fully capped border without access to the guard stacks is unfair, stacking sigils have the same problem especially in condition builds where condi damage can reach 2.2k in some cases and sometimes more.

Each class has more than enough stats in it’s kit to not warrant guard stacks and stacking sigils. next i hope they get rid of food in WvW and leave only the most basic of stones, oils and crystals.

!!!! YOU’RE NOT MY SUPERVISOR !!!!

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Posted by: Sungtaro.6493

Sungtaro.6493

It actually helps balance it. However, this change puts a rather glaring spotlight on how meh the actual masteries are. From a balance standpoint, it makes sense to remove them. From a universal utility standpoint, the masteries are lackluster.

The amount of people actually needed on siege in a given encounter is actually small. So even if you have ram mastery, for example, you will most likely not be using it because four others have it and you have one ram down.

Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to incompetence.

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Posted by: Hexalot.8194

Hexalot.8194

Good because by removing this and hopefully the stacking sigils you create a more level playing field, this in turn creates a much more healthy competetive enviroment.

Running around killing NPC’s to be more powerful than someone on a fully capped border without access to the guard stacks is unfair, stacking sigils have the same problem especially in condition builds where condi damage can reach 2.2k in some cases and sometimes more.

Each class has more than enough stats in it’s kit to not warrant guard stacks and stacking sigils. next i hope they get rid of food in WvW and leave only the most basic of stones, oils and crystals.

I don’t get it… what you want (no foods, no sigil stacking, etc…) is already available in one type of game mode… it’s called PVP. You can go over there and enjoy that feeling of “everyone being on the same level playing field” all day long if you want to. So why wish to drag that over here to a game mode that supposedly rewards and promotes individuality in builds/buffs ?

I just don’t get it…

(edited by Hexalot.8194)

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Posted by: Dawdler.8521

Dawdler.8521

I don’t get it… what you want (no foods, no sigil stacking, etc…) is already available in one type of game mode… it’s called PVP. You can go over there and enjoy that feeling of “everyone being on the same level playing field” all day long if you want to. So why wish to drag that over here to a game mode that supposedly rewards and promotes individuality in builds/buffs ?

I just don’t get it…

Pretty much every veteran and fan of WvW complains and moans that Anet doesnt truly recognize WvW for the primarily PvP based gameplay mode that its supposed to be, but when they say they want to make the PvP in WvW more fair by removing a buff like this – which should never have been added in the first place – some people complain you’re not supposed to enjoy that the same level playing field.

You are only allowed to enjoy the PvE in WvW, is that what you are saying?

I just dont get it either…

I thought most of us disliked that Anet has always classified WvW as PvE and underestimated the quality of their own design. Guess I was wrong.

Applied Fortitude and Strength to be removed

in WvW

Posted by: Hexalot.8194

Hexalot.8194

I don’t get it… what you want (no foods, no sigil stacking, etc…) is already available in one type of game mode… it’s called PVP. You can go over there and enjoy that feeling of “everyone being on the same level playing field” all day long if you want to. So why wish to drag that over here to a game mode that supposedly rewards and promotes individuality in builds/buffs ?

I just don’t get it…

Pretty much every veteran and fan of WvW complains and moans that Anet doesnt truly recognize WvW for the primarily PvP based gameplay mode that its supposed to be, but when they say they want to make the PvP in WvW more fair by removing a buff like this – which should never have been added in the first place – some people complain you’re not supposed to enjoy that the same level playing field.

You are only allowed to enjoy the PvE in WvW, is that what you are saying?

I just dont get it either…

I thought most of us disliked that Anet has always classified WvW as PvE and underestimated the quality of their own design. Guess I was wrong.

That’s NOT what most veterans of WvW complain about. They complain about the general LACK of attention (only one map in 3 years ?) given to the game mode, the numerous bugs that are outstanding even today, and yes some even complain about the lack of proper balancing between the classes. But things like food buffs, sigil/guard stacks and so on ?

Please.

We all knew from day one what to expect when jumping into WvW. And ANet has also been very clear (from day one) that WvW is balanced together with PVE.

(edited by Hexalot.8194)