Guild Wars 2

Arrow carts really shouldn’t damage siege all that much…

Arrow carts really shouldn’t damage siege all that much…

As a preface, I have played a total of five hours of wvwvw, all of it the other day to get monthlies. I died three times despite being brand new, upleveled from 17, and playing very aggressively. I can’t really say if arrow carts can be OP, but they can definitely be overpowered with little strategy. Anyway, lots of bad history and quotation usage here. Very funny. Could someone direct me to one of these “top guilds?” I’m not understanding what is meant there, and keep seeing it come up.

Rawnoodles.1398:

I’d rather have no new progressive content then this idiotic AC buff

Not sure if im asking to much from you but go get better strategies

ViRuE.3612:

Buffing an item damage by 80% while adding WXP AC traits combined with siege might on the cheapest siege item in the game when superior arrow carts with siege might were already very strong was crazy. Not giving any thought to how ACs are abused virtually every day with positioning and zoom hacks and ignoring the fact they melt any other siege was insane. Failing to address the issue ACs already have with being able to shoot through walls, stone ceilings and anything else in their way is simply lazy development.

At the very least the range extension needs to go to the very top of the WXP trait line, the damage buff from the patch needs to go down to more like 25% damage increase and they should have limited (very limited) damage against other siege. I would also prioritize making sure arrow carts work like projectiles should – if there is something blocking the path between the point of departure and the point of arrival then it should be blocked.

Lastly you want to adjust siege I’m all for it unless the game turns in to siege wars. Which it basically was tonight.

I guess we were somewhat lucky though tonight that people were bugged and siege kept disappearing otherwise it would have been even more boring (if such a thing is possible).

You Sir/Ma’am deserve a cookie.

<.< very nice buff
>.>VERY NICE BUFF

please check datas more carefully =/

I can’t find anything rational buffing a Siege Weapon that can be exploited without any external program. This makes AC totally broken by stacking them and being able to out LoS everything.

Arrow carts are killing this game. Getting any fight AT ALL is not really possible. Side A wants to fight, side B puts down 3 carts. Side A backs up, Side B moves up and puts down 3 carts.

It’s turning into Cart Creep wars and it’s just not fun. The thought that this helps low numbers of defenders is true, but it’s also helps higher numbers of defenders, and they can drop more carts and carry more siege.

Actual group fighting is one of the few things in WvW your players enjoyed, and this is killing it. Defending keeps isn’t what’s going to make a healthy game, having an active group fighting community is.

first of all i have to say that the change that increases the damage when a side is outnumbered ( + 80% damage ) is more than welcome

i don’t know if this affect only arrow carts or all sieges but yes yesterday at last being outnumbered we successfully defend our T3 keep against 2 times or more enemies for the first time in the game.

as an attacker ( guardian bunker that had spare 5 wxp to spend to siege bunker) later our enemies try to kill us with 5 arrow carts that had placed them behind a gate and they failed to kill us :p . we attacked the tower ( t1 ) and i with our 3 or 4 totall guardians , warriors and enginners we successful heal ( first time i found the hold the line so important shout ) and defend our people on rams and the people behind us with less armor.

the funny part was when the gate broke and all ( except guardians ) run to kill the tower’s lord . i saw a field with dead bodies . arrow carts killed all that are not heavy armored at once and without support from guardians – warriors ( banner of defence ) – engineer ( their healing tools :p ) as we had outside the tower .

so , we have some conclusions until now .

Now ,

1. against arrow carts no more dps glass – canon classes in the front line ignoring the sieges . welcomed

2. arrow carts when a side is outnumbered can help defenders successfully defend an upgraded keep . welcomed

3. many classes must change their tactics against arrow carts . if someone don’t spend some wxp in siege bunker it is logical to easy killed from someone that spend all his wxp to siege might or arrow cart might.

maybe is too powerful now the arrow carts and there are some issues ( like damage against enemy sieges , ac range , zoom exploit or outnumber the ballista damage ) that devs must address them but if someone don’t spend any wxp to siege bunker , he must stop complain if he dies so ease from arrow carts .

arrow carts role is to heavy damage enemies not to scratch their armor as was before the patch , but as it is now it replaced the damage of ballista and devs must address this issue .

p.s. after patch thieves killed me easily in 1 vs 1 or 2 against me when i lonely support my caravans and i welcome it too. their role is to do damage behind the enemy lines ( drain or stop upgrading a tower is their role)

I am alright with the power increase, but the range is broken. An AC built on the wall of a tower can almost reach the maxmum range of a cata. Making using catas to take down walls very difficult. I’ll try get kitten and post it

These new arrow carts are great. We can kill 3 superior trebs hitting bay keep from garrison in less than 30 seconds with one basic arrow cart at the bottom of the cliff. Just awesome.

VOLKON.1290:

Moloch.8013:

arrow carts are currently over powered.
no one can argue with that.
and if a thing is OP it should be nerfed.

I can argue that. I say their power is appropriate and we need to adapt our tactics to handle this. An old college drinking buddy of mine had a quote that covers this nicely:

“Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.”
Sun Tzu

Ah, Sun. He had quite the way with women. When he wasn’t beheading them, that is.

citations doesn’t make you right. this is not reality, it’s a game.
if sun tzu could play videogames he would have said “Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat. Or just exploit things that are currently op.”
arrow cart’s insane power is currently being abused. you can easily defend everything from everything just placing 5+ arrow carts.
what’s their cost? 30 supply? you can build 3 just drying up one supply camp.
make their cost, i don’t know, 50 supplies?
just to balance power/cost ratio
i don’t say that ac don’t needed a buff, but this is much, much more than a buff

AC were already good, you don’t even need line of sight and can hit virtually anything, now they’re strong WITH longer range. If you want to keep them stronger with longer range, make them require line of sight to hit stuff at the very least, so people can actually destroy them when attacking towers/keeps instead of defenders hiding them in random corners and fiddling with their camera view to get shots off.

If you don’t want line of sight for arrow cart usage, then at the very least get rid of this ridiculous range buff, you’ve effectively destroyed a large portion of viable mid distance cata sieging with the range increase, and completely removed the use of counter cata.

Hey, I was still very annoyed by some people saying that people opposing the patch were a vocal minority and that it was mainly VoTF. I’ll grant you that no one has the amount of posts in this thread that I do (last time I counted I was well over 100).

I just decided to count how many posters actually supported each side of the argument. I did not count how many posts they made, only how many unique people posted here. (Please don’t bring up any sock puppet bullkitten)

I had to make 4 categories.
People supporting the patch. 105 Posters (also included were people who think the patch might have been a tad too much but still generally supported what they did to arrowcarts)

People who had a balanced response to the patch. This includes people saying we should wait, people saying that it should do no damage to siege but keep the damage to people. Also included people saying that for this to work we would need swirling back or other kinds of fixes to counter the new arrowcart. (Most of these posts had a general negative response to the patch) 73 posters

Then there were people who were just trolling, trying to be funny or just said something that had little or nothing to do with AC’s or WvW. (50 posters)

Then there was the vocal minority of people saying they were opposed to the patch. 204 posters

There were also several posts from people congratulating and supporting VoTF to put so much effort into this.

I did not actively look for guild tags but I have seen some and do remember some as well. This is just a little bit of filler information for you guys.

I only remember one guild tag that I knew that supported the patch [AFTL]

And there were a couple of guilds that opposed the patch or supported the opposition to it. Obviously VoTF but also RG, MERC, RE, RiOT, RL, VcY, IRON, siN, Coin, CHOO, Helm, Aegis, Nugos, BT, DsD, GD, Equinox, Immortalis, VK, HOPE, NOM and someone claiming all Piken Square guilds as well

P.S. small disclaimer I may have made some mistakes in counting but those would be insignificant (definitely no more than 5 on any category). I did not count Devon Carver, you are welcome to put him in any category you want.

P.P.S. This is not a poll, this is just a breakdown of the thread so far.

So… first you’re gonne nerf the hell out of ACs, laughing at everyone that had a mastery in it, and then in the looooong run, you will fix WvW siege in general.

Brilliant plan, brilliant!

Out of pure curiosity… do the DEVs even play WvW ???

And to the person above me that counted the posters so nicely: this seems to be ANet’s way of doing things: when some people yell hard, they change stuff, totally disregarding other people. Thiefs being the best example: people yelled that thieves were OP, they planned a nerf. Then, people yelled that the nerf went to far, they didn’t nerf. Then, people yelled that the 3 to 4s wasn’t good, they changed it back.

They got ZERO direction in this game. It’s always the same, some people make alot of noise and BOOM, ANet changes stuff.

Who in their right mind posts ‘we will nerf ACs ASAP but only look at other siege in the comming months’. What kind of a communication is that? With all due respect to Devon and what he does, but isn’t there anyone there that actually cares about balances?

And the worse part is… ANet doesn’t do anything about the zoom. No fix. Not even saying they will fix it. Not even saying this is intended. Nothing. It seems to me that THAT is the biggest problem with ACs, not the damage or the range, but the shooting over walls and around corners. Instead of buffing and nerfing and changing and all that, FIX THE PROBLEM.

You want Arrowcart (i should say imbacart) to be “anti-personal weapon” but you have made it be “anti-game weapon”.
Buff accorded by the arrowcart’s traits are already too strong (they should be reduced by at least a half), so why add +80% damage ???

I’m so tired to see Bief and Kodash’s player build arrowcart in EVERY battle, im tired to see ONE player rebooting 50player with 5 sup ram on a tower … I’m tired of WvW …

In addition, i spend my point in balista, may you explain me how a weapon which is supposed to be a counter weapon, can be out-ranged this way ???

And a small grou kitten upposed to take a sieged up camp with arrow carts exactly how?

WvW is once again made not fun for small groups.

Before culling was removed, the game had become impossible for small groups in the upper tiers of WvW. Our guild was discussing moving to another game so we could keep playing together and have fun.

With arrow carts, we are back at that point again. You can only make changes like this so many times, before people lose faith.

Caliban.3176:

Hey, I was still very annoyed by some people saying that people opposing the patch were a vocal minority and that it was mainly VoTF. I’ll grant you that no one has the amount of posts in this thread that I do (last time I counted I was well over 100).

I just decided to count how many posters actually supported each side of the argument. I did not count how many posts they made, only how many unique people posted here. (Please don’t bring up any sock puppet bullkitten)

I had to make 4 categories.
People supporting the patch. 105 Posters (also included were people who think the patch might have been a tad too much but still generally supported what they did to arrowcarts)

People who had a balanced response to the patch. This includes people saying we should wait, people saying that it should do no damage to siege but keep the damage to people. Also included people saying that for this to work we would need swirling back or other kinds of fixes to counter the new arrowcart. (Most of these posts had a general negative response to the patch) 73 posters

Then there were people who were just trolling, trying to be funny or just said something that had little or nothing to do with AC’s or WvW. (50 posters)

Then there was the vocal minority of people saying they were opposed to the patch. 204 posters

There were also several posts from people congratulating and supporting VoTF to put so much effort into this.

I did not actively look for guild tags but I have seen some and do remember some as well. This is just a little bit of filler information for you guys.

I only remember one guild tag that I knew that supported the patch [AFTL]

And there were a couple of guilds that opposed the patch or supported the opposition to it. Obviously VoTF but also RG, MERC, RE, RiOT, RL, VcY, IRON, siN, Coin, CHOO, Helm, Aegis, Nugos, BT, DsD, GD, Equinox, Immortalis, VK, HOPE, NOM and someone claiming all Piken Square guilds as well

P.S. small disclaimer I may have made some mistakes in counting but those would be insignificant (definitely no more than 5 on any category). I did not count Devon Carver, you are welcome to put him in any category you want.

P.P.S. This is not a poll, this is just a breakdown of the thread so far.

Just accept it dude. Stop spending time categorising and counting posts on an internet forum and go think about how to adapt your strategies to the new build. Its here to stay regardless of what you say, so there is no point wasting your time on this kind of stuff.

sostronk.8167:

Just accept it dude. Stop spending time categorising and counting posts on an internet forum and go think about how to adapt your strategies to the new build. Its here to stay regardless of what you say, so there is no point wasting your time on this kind of stuff.

Why would I adapt to something that is clearly broken? You make no sense.

One thing I don’t understand is the opposition to the swirling wind nerf. As far as I can see, it makes things go faster, not slower. Sure your treb gets counter trebbed quickly, but in the 3-4 shots you’ve managed to fire off you’ve destroyed much more than 100 supplies worth of siege equipment if you’re trebbing an heavily fortified position with a heavy density of weapons.
Even before the AC buff, you weren’t going to take an heavily fortified keep in a 50 vs 50 engagement before draining supplies anyway. This change lets you drain them faster; speed-build a treb, fire off those few shots in the middle of an AC/treb cluster and you’ve just drained the enemy of 2-300 supply in under one minute. Go cap a camp, resupply, fire another “volley”, that’s another 2-300 supplies gone. How long are they going to be able to sustain it?

It’s sorta using them more like a quick jet strike than a prolonged bombardment.

Imo, they should turn siege weapons into complementary weapons, not dominating weapons. When I first heard about WvW I imagined BF3 or combined weapon warfare on a big scale. Unfortunatley this is not the case as we all know. ANet should keep infantry only battles viable for all players at the same time as making siege weapons worthwhile.

I would make a couple of changes to improve WvW:
-Turn all siege weapons into deployable or mobile siege weapons.
-Deployable weapons take time to setup and cannot fire immediately.
-Deployable weapons can easily be destroyed and are slow.
-Mobile siege weapons sustain some player damage and a lot of siege weapon damage, they deal less damage against players and are more effective against other siege weapons.
-That way at least two different types of siege weapons can be used and siege lines broken.
-Turn siege weapon blueprints into realm blueprints, thus turning siege weapons into global resources. Realm blueprints are limited in number and this number depends on the number and quality of occupied outposts. Realm blueprints are global and do not need to be bought. Special (individual) blueprints add visual effects to siege weapons or buff them in some way.
-At any time there are enough realm blueprints to take and hold outposts, but a realm also need to manage it’s resources. Holding a structure for a longer period of time now rewards a realm with more deployable siege weapons.
-Add strategic value to secondary outposts: Holding a camp yields more realm blueprints, thus increasing the importance of camps and their defence. Camps could yield different types or numbers of blueprints to add strategic value to them. Same goes for towers as they could mark a territory and its benefits similar to Total War and other games.
-Each deployed siege weapon despawns fairly quick if manned for only a short period of time. This way no two outposts can be spammed with siege weapons and siege weapons need to be placed carefully.

Caliban.3176:

Hey, I was still very annoyed by some people saying that people opposing the patch were a vocal minority and that it was mainly VoTF.

Since when is 200 out of the thousands upon thousands of people playing GW2 not a vocal minority? Everyone do not make threads that say “All is well”. All of us combined is a vocal minority to begin with!

Either way, your breakdown shows that yes, the [vocal minority] community is indeed split on the matter. I am quite confident that Anet are capable of satisfying significant portions of both camps by tuning the damage and range of the arrowcarts. Everybody still wont be happy.

Dawdler.8521:

Caliban.3176:

Hey, I was still very annoyed by some people saying that people opposing the patch were a vocal minority and that it was mainly VoTF.

Since when is 200 out of the thousands upon thousands of people playing GW2 not a vocal minority? Everyone do not make threads that say “All is well”. All of us combined is a vocal minority to begin with!

Either way, your breakdown shows that yes, the [vocal minority] community is indeed split on the matter. I am quite confident that Anet are capable of satisfying significant portions of both camps by tuning the damage and range of the arrowcarts. Everybody still wont be happy.

This is true but it was more than just that. In other semi-related threads people would refer to this one and then say that even here most people were in favor of the patch and that is was only so big because a minority was being very vocal. So it was more about the forum community than the entire in game community. It is not 20 people posting against another 100 and pretending to be more than that. In this subset of players it is definitely not a minority that opposes the patch.

Whether this subset can be a reliable representative of the entire set of players is another discussion and one that is pretty hard one.

P.S. I do thank that for 200 people to come on the english speaking forums and complain that something is definitely is wrong. Especially since a lot of these people speak for more than just themselves.

there is nothing wrong with the patch and AC buff

its sad to see how many people are crying because 100 of them cant mash 1 on reinforced doors and capture it in 2mins anymore

finally you have to use strategy and brain to do something but i guess thats to much for some people

im from Gandara and yesterday we lost Bay from AG (Guilds DAWN and NP or NR hmmm)
anyway they did it briliantly…they got outer gate before we even noticed it….then treb inner walls….we couldnt stop them so we built lot of siege inside lords room and they knew it….so they just portal bombed us and wiped easy

game finally gets more then just 100 people following 1 commander and pressing 1 on the doors

The most disturbing thing about all this, is that WvWvW ranks are adding tangible power to characters. increased range, increased dmg (and not a trivial amount), conditions, and so on.

Its totally against the level playing field idea that we were sold on. I’m not sure I like the way this is heading, what next? teired gear grinds beign added in?

All this crying about arrow carts. I cannot believe Anet is actually listening to these few crying. I LOVE the changes to arrow carts. I do not think they should be changed one iota. They give an effective counter to the overwhelming zerg mindset that people have and separate those who can think and implement solutions from those who must ‘hulk smash!’

You want to change something? Balance thieves. Get rid of the entire stealth mechanic. Please don’t change arrow carts.

Dawdler.8521:

Caliban.3176:

Hey, I was still very annoyed by some people saying that people opposing the patch were a vocal minority and that it was mainly VoTF.

Since when is 200 out of the thousands upon thousands of people playing GW2 not a vocal minority? Everyone do not make threads that say “All is well”. All of us combined is a vocal minority to begin with!

Either way, your breakdown shows that yes, the [vocal minority] community is indeed split on the matter. I am quite confident that Anet are capable of satisfying significant portions of both camps by tuning the damage and range of the arrowcarts. Everybody still wont be happy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_%28statistics%29

This may be a good thing for you to read.

markic.4359:

there is nothing wrong with the patch and AC buff

its sad to see how many people are crying because 100 of them cant mash 1 on reinforced doors and capture it in 2mins anymore

finally you have to use strategy and brain to do something but i guess thats to much for some people

im from Gandara and yesterday we lost Bay from AG (Guilds DAWN and NP or NR hmmm)
anyway they did it briliantly…they got outer gate before we even noticed it….then treb inner walls….we couldnt stop them so we built lot of siege inside lords room and they knew it….so they just portal bombed us and wiped easy

game finally gets more then just 100 people following 1 commander and pressing 1 on the doors

There’s not a game requirement that you must be outmanned to use an arrow cart. Now you’re happy because you can either a) get rolled or b) turtle forever.

If only 1 vs 100 can do that, what do you think is happening in most tiers when it’s relatively even odds like 30 v 30? The death of fights. It’s a war to see who can throw down the cheapest strongest siege in the game, and then stare at each other.

Every fight on reset, the opposing side was choosing to turtle forever. I don’t think that’s a good direction for this game to go.

Attacked a tier 3 Bay today.
I first spent 1 hour running supply to build 4 trebs for outer.
After much death and pain, we agreed that going inside outer was a deathtrap.
spent another hour running supply for 4 more trebs at Vale camp, plus 3 mins of pressing 2 on a treb.
Proceeded to rush in and up on inner walls, dropping all heals availiable to man. commander built a superior AC and killed all defenders.
We won.

I killed 3 players in 4 hours…

Should be 30 minutes on the treb.

DevonCarver.5370:

I’d like to shed some light on our thinking with this AC change as well as tell you all what we are doing right now to balance it.

Firstly, when siege weapons were originally created, they had the intent of being really good at some things and not so good at others. The arrow cart is intended to be the anti-personal siege weapon. It is intended that arrow carts are all about controlling an area through damage. If you remain in the area that is being hit by the arrow cart, you will die. You can however, move out of the space and/or find a new way to attack the intended target. That being said, they are not intended to be so good against other siege weapons and we are in the process of addressing that right now. We are also addressing their range when upgraded to be more in line with the range of ballistas.

Secondly, this change is going to require new tactics and those tactics include things like using ballista and catapults to destroy arrow carts. With that in mind, we’ve been looking more closely at the numbers of all the siege weapons and there are definitely some changes that need to be made to bring them in line with their intent. We are going to take a holistic pass at siege weapons in the coming months and drop a rebalance of all of them to get them to more closely align with what they should be doing.

Finally, the feedback you all provide is a very useful part of this whole process. WvW is a living, breathing game type and any changes we make have numerous consequences that don’t become fully visible until everyone starts interacting with them and devising new strategies. Our goal is to provide a complex combat space that rewards skill, tactics, and ingenuity and while we haven’t fully achieved that goal yet, I like to think we are getting there.

Translation: Oops. Well now that we’re taking the time to look at siege balance, we’ll look at all weapons and not just one.

Can we at least get an apology for a hastily-made decision that went wrong because SOMEONE forgot that ACs can damage siege? … sheesh.

Caliban.3176:

sostronk.8167:

Just accept it dude. Stop spending time categorising and counting posts on an internet forum and go think about how to adapt your strategies to the new build. Its here to stay regardless of what you say, so there is no point wasting your time on this kind of stuff.

Why would I adapt to something that is clearly broken? You make no sense.

You don’t even need to make a poll, almost all organized guilds dislike this AC change and will also dislike the fix they will do.

Real problems are scrubyscrubs posting feedbacks when most of them don’t actually use the mastery, use superior arrow carts and/or post feedbacks when they only face one arrow cart.
Beside the damage, the range is the worst thing happening. Aneu was kind posting only 12 AC on hills, with some little zoomhack etc you can have more than 15 hitting the gate.

Would be nice if some organized guild could make a video of a full arrow cart defense, but I guess everyone is too lazy to stand in a siege weapon for hours

I don’t really get why arrow carts are damaging siege in the first place.

Rams/Catas/Trebs: Arrows would just stick into the wood, not really doing anything to hinder the health of the ram, maaaaybeaking it a little harder to use, but not destroying the thing.

Golems/Guild siege: Are made out of what looks to be really thick metal…. How are arrows not just bouncing off the plating?

Anyone has this problem of getting stuck on ACs after u use it?
Pressing the `release key just gives the message shown below
WP works but i have to run back to the tower :/

Pryda.8257:

Caliban.3176:

sostronk.8167:

Just accept it dude. Stop spending time categorising and counting posts on an internet forum and go think about how to adapt your strategies to the new build. Its here to stay regardless of what you say, so there is no point wasting your time on this kind of stuff.

Why would I adapt to something that is clearly broken? You make no sense.

You don’t even need to make a poll, almost all organized guilds dislike this AC change and will also dislike the fix they will do.

Real problems are scrubyscrubs posting feedbacks when most of them don’t actually use the mastery, use superior arrow carts and/or post feedbacks when they only face one arrow cart.
Beside the damage, the range is the worst thing happening. Aneu was kind posting only 12 AC on hills, with some little zoomhack etc you can have more than 15 hitting the gate.

Would be nice if some organized guild could make a video of a full arrow cart defense, but I guess everyone is too lazy to stand in a siege weapon for hours

I have read almost all of this thread and I really can not believe some of the egos here. Countless posts have stated how uber leet guilds oppose it so therefore they are right because they are soo leet in their eyes. Then they go on and talk about all those that are not in these uber leet guilds as being scrubs that do not know anything. So are you saying these “scrubs” can use this to their advantage more then a uber leet guild? If said guild was so great they should adapt much easier then a “scrub” to such changes.. Or is it that the “scrubs” opinion just doesn’t matter because they are not qualified to talk about such things.

Anyway I think, as Devon has addressed, the issue with the effect this has on other siege and the range needs some fixing. And from what he said they will be fixing this asap. Personally I have still enjoyed every minute I have spent in wvw since the patch and maybe I am lucky on my server but I have not seen any stagnation of keep taking. Sometimes it takes a bit longer and not always a success but in my mind that is a good thing.

Aneu.1748:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_%28statistics%29

This may be a good thing for you to read.

Only if I wanted to know how wrong it is to refer to sampling statistics on a forum thread.
Which I dont, so meh.

MiLkZz.4789:

sostronk.8167:

Everglow.2185:

How is this not hotfixed already?

Just throwing it out there, most of what the complaints are in this thread (particularly from VoTF) are not being “hotfixed”. The devs have in a nice and well worded way stated L2P. They are fixing the damage to siege from AC, which I agree with. The damage to siege probaby isn’t a huge priority either so I doubt they would bring out a hotfix specifically for this. They might but Id expect them to just do it during a maintenance/patch.

I think I can speak for the entire VcY by saying we support what VoTF says, the ACs damage got to be reverted. And we ain’t the only guild/person saying it. I just have to look in /m chat to see nobody is liking the change.

You can add the majority of RiOT in that support of VoTF too…

On a personal note (not guild)… I think that a reasonable compromise could be made with arrow carts by making them not effective against siege but only against people. That would make a huge difference. But then you also need to introduce some kind of siege (possibly superior) that protects people. I have said before that the game lacks siege weapons such as tortoise (a cover to allow attackers to approach a gate – or you could even have some sort of shield wall)… ladders, siege towers, and mining (tunnels designed to undermine the foundations of a wall and counter tunnels to intercept the enemy tunnels – see the siege of St Andrew’s Castle as a classic example).

Arrow carts only doing stupid damage to players and not siege would still lead to a game where you need to set up a treb every 3 square yards to kill another cheaply made arrow carts. Siege creeping is not fun.

I cannot even understand the concept behind arrow carts. If a siege weapon is created as a “counter players” and then made strong enough to do what its supposed to do it has to be OP. The whole idea behind this is stupid: A weapon that counters everyone: Drop build site, put supplys into it, win fight…. You might wanna introduce some player skills that counter players, too. Just to make small scale encounters less stale. 360+ AoE Skills with 2k dps on 1 sounds just fine to me. LOL

So what i did today after capturing the northwest and northeast tower of an opposing server with my raid is that i put 3 persons in each tower giving them 1 superior ballista and 2 superior carts for each tower. The enemy had to treb the tower with 30+ people, because they couldnt set up rams of the carts, and couldnt set up catas because of the ballistas. Those 3 people forced a whole zerg to stand around doing nothing. I had tons of time comming over to clean up. Sounds decent.

Better remove AC’s. I wouldn’t miss them. If you don’t, please just give guilds other options than WvW for mid-large scale PvP. Afterall, your doing your best to drive WvW into other directions.

urek mazino.4026:

Anyone has this problem of getting stuck on ACs after u use it?
Pressing the `release key just gives the message shown below
WP works but i have to run back to the tower :/

I had that problem the other day, I bug reported it. I was standing on a bit of a ledge which I think confused it.

Fix ac before your WvW is deadspace.

markic.4359:

there is nothing wrong with the patch and AC buff

its sad to see how many people are crying because 100 of them cant mash 1 on reinforced doors and capture it in 2mins anymore

finally you have to use strategy and brain to do something but i guess thats to much for some people

im from Gandara and yesterday we lost Bay from AG (Guilds DAWN and NP or NR hmmm)
anyway they did it briliantly…they got outer gate before we even noticed it….then treb inner walls….we couldnt stop them so we built lot of siege inside lords room and they knew it….so they just portal bombed us and wiped easy

game finally gets more then just 100 people following 1 commander and pressing 1 on the doors

and today you took from us bravost ( T2 tower almost T3 , you broke the progress and you changed everything in the map ) that had an equal number from our side to defend it against your forces …. and the most funny thing was again arrow carts …our people build arrow carts in the side where treb hit

gz for the capture !!! today in eb we had epic fights in the whole map . my inventory fulled many times with loots and badges , i am sure yours too !

p.s. i cant remember how many times sm changed owner … Sure AC can STOP the attackers

Pinko.2076:

markic.4359:

there is nothing wrong with the patch and AC buff

its sad to see how many people are crying because 100 of them cant mash 1 on reinforced doors and capture it in 2mins anymore

finally you have to use strategy and brain to do something but i guess thats to much for some people

im from Gandara and yesterday we lost Bay from AG (Guilds DAWN and NP or NR hmmm)
anyway they did it briliantly…they got outer gate before we even noticed it….then treb inner walls….we couldnt stop them so we built lot of siege inside lords room and they knew it….so they just portal bombed us and wiped easy

game finally gets more then just 100 people following 1 commander and pressing 1 on the doors

There’s not a game requirement that you must be outmanned to use an arrow cart. Now you’re happy because you can either a) get rolled or b) turtle forever.

If only 1 vs 100 can do that, what do you think is happening in most tiers when it’s relatively even odds like 30 v 30? The death of fights. It’s a war to see who can throw down the cheapest strongest siege in the game, and then stare at each other.

Every fight on reset, the opposing side was choosing to turtle forever. I don’t think that’s a good direction for this game to go.

first of all you cannot turtle forever…you can turtle till you have enough supplies to repair walls/gate

in both even or outmanned fights if you cant breach the gate….go for treb or cata…
and here is the real problem (people are just to lazy or just not wise enough to know places where to build catas and trebs that cant be countered)

if you did that you would pretty much push defenders to come charge you and there you get your fight

its really easy but not enough people and guilds are wise and organized enough

ammayhem.5962:

urek mazino.4026:

Anyone has this problem of getting stuck on ACs after u use it?
Pressing the `release key just gives the message shown below
WP works but i have to run back to the tower :/

I had that problem the other day, I bug reported it. I was standing on a bit of a ledge which I think confused it.

Thanks for that, I think you might be right. Not standing on ledges doesnt seem to give that problem so far

Reborn.2934:

markic.4359:

there is nothing wrong with the patch and AC buff

its sad to see how many people are crying because 100 of them cant mash 1 on reinforced doors and capture it in 2mins anymore

finally you have to use strategy and brain to do something but i guess thats to much for some people

im from Gandara and yesterday we lost Bay from AG (Guilds DAWN and NP or NR hmmm)
anyway they did it briliantly…they got outer gate before we even noticed it….then treb inner walls….we couldnt stop them so we built lot of siege inside lords room and they knew it….so they just portal bombed us and wiped easy

game finally gets more then just 100 people following 1 commander and pressing 1 on the doors

and today you took from us bravost ( T2 tower ) that have an equal number from our side to defend it against your forces ….

gz for the capture !!! today in eb we had epic fights in the whole map :p

p.s. i cant remember how many times sm changed owner :p

hehe i wasnt here i just got home wish i was here
but nice to see there are still normal and fairplay people)

i really dont understand whats the problem with just building catas or trebs on wise spot….if you are good organized and know what you doing you will capture something even if its 20vs50(+ their siege)

markic.4359:

Reborn.2934:

markic.4359:

there is nothing wrong with the patch and AC buff

its sad to see how many people are crying because 100 of them cant mash 1 on reinforced doors and capture it in 2mins anymore

finally you have to use strategy and brain to do something but i guess thats to much for some people

im from Gandara and yesterday we lost Bay from AG (Guilds DAWN and NP or NR hmmm)
anyway they did it briliantly…they got outer gate before we even noticed it….then treb inner walls….we couldnt stop them so we built lot of siege inside lords room and they knew it….so they just portal bombed us and wiped easy

game finally gets more then just 100 people following 1 commander and pressing 1 on the doors

and today you took from us bravost ( T2 tower ) that have an equal number from our side to defend it against your forces ….

gz for the capture !!! today in eb we had epic fights in the whole map :p

p.s. i cant remember how many times sm changed owner :p

hehe i wasnt here i just got home wish i was here
but nice to see there are still normal and fairplay people)

i really dont understand whats the problem with just building catas or trebs on wise spot….if you are good organized and know what you doing you will capture something even if its 20vs50(+ their siege)

look , the problem started from people that stay with their guilds in the windmill and play guild vs guild all day or running in the whole map with their guild and play the " who is the boss " game and in this situation acs stop their easy running :p

i am not blame them . i full support them . they ask for guild vs guild feature ( arena ) and anet gave them w3 server that is server vs server .

but as it is now w3 is in the correct direction as a strategy pvp game ( and many people still full enjoy it ) , just need expansion the spvp or the www system ( if they remove the eb jp , they can replace it with guilds arena ) from anet to support the guild vs guild feature…

besides all …. it is guild wars game and the leaderboards still not have guild ranks

there is no problem with new ac’s dmg or range withs rank. problem is of lazy zergs not able to adapt to new situation where 4-5 (put there any number) ppl capable to defend tower with properly build siege, can actulaly cross their plains of zerging whole map with 60 puggers and 10 golems in 20 minutes

so all of you whining about how acs are overpower start think a little bit more,
its easy to say something is OP before even triing to counter it and ppl crying about how will www die because skilled guilds will leave ? if they will leave beacuse they can’t counter some acs they not so skilled ..skill is not about pushing 1.2.3 on skill bar its about movement tactics and other things ..or maybe when all whinners will leave there will be no more 2 hours queues to www maps
btw compare to pve players you still minority on servers

Reborn.2934:

markic.4359:

Reborn.2934:

markic.4359:

there is nothing wrong with the patch and AC buff

its sad to see how many people are crying because 100 of them cant mash 1 on reinforced doors and capture it in 2mins anymore

finally you have to use strategy and brain to do something but i guess thats to much for some people

im from Gandara and yesterday we lost Bay from AG (Guilds DAWN and NP or NR hmmm)
anyway they did it briliantly…they got outer gate before we even noticed it….then treb inner walls….we couldnt stop them so we built lot of siege inside lords room and they knew it….so they just portal bombed us and wiped easy

game finally gets more then just 100 people following 1 commander and pressing 1 on the doors

and today you took from us bravost ( T2 tower ) that have an equal number from our side to defend it against your forces ….

gz for the capture !!! today in eb we had epic fights in the whole map :p

p.s. i cant remember how many times sm changed owner :p

hehe i wasnt here i just got home wish i was here
but nice to see there are still normal and fairplay people)

i really dont understand whats the problem with just building catas or trebs on wise spot….if you are good organized and know what you doing you will capture something even if its 20vs50(+ their siege)

look , the problem started from people that stay with their guilds in the windmill and play guild vs guild all day or running in the whole map with their guild and play the " who is the boss " game and in this situation acs stop their easy running :p

i am not blame them . i full support them . they ask for guild vs guild feature ( arena ) and anet gave them w3 server that is server vs server .

but as it is now w3 is in the correct direction as a strategy pvp game ( and many people still full enjoy it ) , just need expansion the spvp or the www system ( if they remove the jp , they can replace it with guilds arena ) from anet to support the guild vs guild feature…

besides all …. it is guild wars game

The “guild wars” ended before GW1 started so its just a name. The new Spvp system where you can start your own games you can make mock GvG games.

There always going to be ppl who do things like that there realty no stooping it other then having the world excommunicate the ppl doing it and the guilds they are from. That in effect is our self police system we look down on guilds who have ppl who “troll.” If the world dose nothing to stop there guilds from doing these things then that world is looked down on by the GW2 community over all.

markic.4359:

Pinko.2076:

markic.4359:

there is nothing wrong with the patch and AC buff

its sad to see how many people are crying because 100 of them cant mash 1 on reinforced doors and capture it in 2mins anymore

finally you have to use strategy and brain to do something but i guess thats to much for some people

im from Gandara and yesterday we lost Bay from AG (Guilds DAWN and NP or NR hmmm)
anyway they did it briliantly…they got outer gate before we even noticed it….then treb inner walls….we couldnt stop them so we built lot of siege inside lords room and they knew it….so they just portal bombed us and wiped easy

game finally gets more then just 100 people following 1 commander and pressing 1 on the doors

There’s not a game requirement that you must be outmanned to use an arrow cart. Now you’re happy because you can either a) get rolled or b) turtle forever.

If only 1 vs 100 can do that, what do you think is happening in most tiers when it’s relatively even odds like 30 v 30? The death of fights. It’s a war to see who can throw down the cheapest strongest siege in the game, and then stare at each other.

Every fight on reset, the opposing side was choosing to turtle forever. I don’t think that’s a good direction for this game to go.

first of all you cannot turtle forever…you can turtle till you have enough supplies to repair walls/gate

in both even or outmanned fights if you cant breach the gate….go for treb or cata…
and here is the real problem (people are just to lazy or just not wise enough to know places where to build catas and trebs that cant be countered)

if you did that you would pretty much push defenders to come charge you and there you get your fight

its really easy but not enough people and guilds are wise and organized enough

Let’s ignore that I was talking about open field fights where carts are being thrown down at every fight.

You’re saying that people are too lazy to invest 5 hours per keep. Do you really think that the game mode should be exclusive to people that rather interact with objects instead of players? If you were making a game, would you design it such that on the average day, your playbase was just interacting with static objects rather than human players?

I don’t see a lot of longevity for designing a game around stalemating. People ultimately world versus world to fight players.

AN should have done everything in their power to fix this before the reset last night. The range on AC’s now is ridiculous. I was in chat with my guildies last night when we got the ingame notice that the game was coming down for a patch – and right away people started joking that, knowing AN, it was to fix a dungeon or something rather than the number one thing that needed fixing, the AC’s. And to no one’s surprise, they were absolutely right.