Guild Wars 2

Terrahero.9358:

Aberrant.6749:

Dual.8953:

You could have blocked CnD. Then he can’t Sneak Attack and all his other skills are weak as all heck. CnD’s a melee skill so it should be obvious when a ranged set is trying to use it. Also he can only CnD twice from full initiative. Maybe try kiting.

This… you had your chance to stop it once on the C&D… which also eats up a lot of ini if you prevent… why should you get 2 chances? If the C&D is stopped, then the recovery is stopped as well.

As far as D/P the field is a large ini drain. You can avoid the blind shot (it’s a long obvious animation) and stop them from completing the hearseeker. They are now pretty kittened and will need to retreat.

I agree about the random deer etc. Those need to go. Not just for this, but for rally reasons as well. Being able to do it off of a wall is a bug that they are trying to fix. That has nothing to do with C&D/attacks from stealth not revealing though…

It is incredibly easy as a Thief to stealth and most means dont even require hitting anyone. Infact only CnD requires you to hit someone to get Stealth. And just because ONE SINGLE ability might actually fail to stealth if it is evaded, you shouldnt be revealed by a failed attack from Stealth?

You are burning through Block charges and Aegis. Aswell as Blind untill you actually land the hit you need. Thats silly.
Why should you be able to break through defenses that rely on limited charges by just spamming an attack without actually suffering any of the drawbacks from it?

It’s not silly because of ini. If you counter a thief trying to stealth it results in a far heavier penalty vs if they were using another class. If my stealth combos on eng are countered, my other skills don’t go on cooldown. I still have many many more attacks I can spam left.

Don’t use limited charges on those spammable attacks. That’s like using them against an auto attack. Why… those can be spammed too and break through defenses that rely on limited charges too. Save them for the specific instance where you need to counter a specific skill/combo. Yes that takes more skill, but it’s far more balanced overall that way. Otherwise it would be stupid easy… “Oh look he hit me with c&d, or did a stealth combo, and I didn’t counter it… let me pop a blind or block… I win anyways gg.” As if guardians don’t have an easy enough time against thieves as it is.

Daendur.2357:

Stealth should trigger revealed
Breathe should trigger revealed
Think to attack someone should trigger revealed
Entering WvW should trigger revealed
please go on with the list…

You forgot revealed should be a permanent debuff…

I totally agree with this idea.

It’s ridiculous already that you can basicly spam backstab without initive cost, let alone the fact that the enemy player only can evade the damage by going in stealth himself or 4+ seconds immunity’s.

If my phantasm skill goes on cooldown due blind or any other skill by block, evade, blink, etc. then so should stealth get his own cooldown when doing so, which is revealed.

BlackDevil.9268:

I totally agree with this idea.

It’s ridiculous already that you can basicly spam backstab without initive cost, let alone the fact that the enemy player only can evade the damage by going in stealth himself or 4+ seconds immunity’s.

If my phantasm skill goes on cooldown due blind or any other skill by block, evade, blink, etc. then so should stealth get his own cooldown when doing so, which is revealed.

Wat? Dude there are tons of things you can do to stop a backstab.

As far as a phant you don’t have any pre-req’s to putting those down. A thief does with backstab. Apples and oranges.

Don’t see a problem with this. Less invasive than changing revealed time/traits/skills etc whilst offering a ‘counter’ to stealth from all classes. It would make thieves (who use stealth the most) have to calculate the risk vs reward of attacking.

Would hit ability to ‘permastealth’ a bit which is the only problem with the thief class.

There are so many people in this thread who lack basic comprehension skills and got completely off topic.

The idea that a blocked/dodged/missed attack should force reveal is perfectly reasonable and should be implemented.

nglcpyro.4906:

Don’t see a problem with this. Less invasive than changing revealed time/traits/skills etc whilst offering a ‘counter’ to stealth from all classes. It would make thieves (who use stealth the most) have to calculate the risk vs reward of attacking.

Would hit ability to ‘permastealth’ a bit which is the only problem with the thief class.

It would hit the thief class far harder than the revealed change did. There are already ways to counter them from entering stealth from C&D and the BP/HS combo. It would do nothing to stop permastealth, it would only encourage people to stay in stealth longer to wait until the block ended.

Skye.4983:

There are so many people in this thread who lack basic comprehension skills and got completely off topic.

The idea that a blocked/dodged/missed attack should force reveal is perfectly reasonable and should be implemented.

Just calling something perfectly reasonable with no reasons behind it doesn’t somehow make it so…

Aberrant.6749:

Terrahero.9358:

Aberrant.6749:

Dual.8953:

You could have blocked CnD. Then he can’t Sneak Attack and all his other skills are weak as all heck. CnD’s a melee skill so it should be obvious when a ranged set is trying to use it. Also he can only CnD twice from full initiative. Maybe try kiting.

This… you had your chance to stop it once on the C&D… which also eats up a lot of ini if you prevent… why should you get 2 chances? If the C&D is stopped, then the recovery is stopped as well.

As far as D/P the field is a large ini drain. You can avoid the blind shot (it’s a long obvious animation) and stop them from completing the hearseeker. They are now pretty kittened and will need to retreat.

I agree about the random deer etc. Those need to go. Not just for this, but for rally reasons as well. Being able to do it off of a wall is a bug that they are trying to fix. That has nothing to do with C&D/attacks from stealth not revealing though…

It is incredibly easy as a Thief to stealth and most means dont even require hitting anyone. Infact only CnD requires you to hit someone to get Stealth. And just because ONE SINGLE ability might actually fail to stealth if it is evaded, you shouldnt be revealed by a failed attack from Stealth?

You are burning through Block charges and Aegis. Aswell as Blind untill you actually land the hit you need. Thats silly.
Why should you be able to break through defenses that rely on limited charges by just spamming an attack without actually suffering any of the drawbacks from it?

It’s not silly because of ini. If you counter a thief trying to stealth it results in a far heavier penalty vs if they were using another class. If my stealth combos on eng are countered, my other skills don’t go on cooldown. I still have many many more attacks I can spam left.

Don’t use limited charges on those spammable attacks. That’s like using them against an auto attack. Why… those can be spammed too and break through defenses that rely on limited charges too. Save them for the specific instance where you need to counter a specific skill/combo. Yes that takes more skill, but it’s far more balanced overall that way. Otherwise it would be stupid easy… “Oh look he hit me with c&d, or did a stealth combo, and I didn’t counter it… let me pop a blind or block… I win anyways gg.” As if guardians don’t have an easy enough time against thieves as it is.

Hold on there. You do not get to use initiative as a shield.

Just cause you managed to pick one of the few situations iniative isnt a blessing does not mean you can say “… and that is why my attack shouldnt count as an attack when its inconvenient to me”.

Initiative is the whole reason perma-stealth even exists. You want to go and have cooldowns on your abilities like everyone else? Fine with me, that solves this whole mess in one go.

Terrahero.9358:

Aberrant.6749:

Terrahero.9358:

Aberrant.6749:

Dual.8953:

You could have blocked CnD. Then he can’t Sneak Attack and all his other skills are weak as all heck. CnD’s a melee skill so it should be obvious when a ranged set is trying to use it. Also he can only CnD twice from full initiative. Maybe try kiting.

This… you had your chance to stop it once on the C&D… which also eats up a lot of ini if you prevent… why should you get 2 chances? If the C&D is stopped, then the recovery is stopped as well.

As far as D/P the field is a large ini drain. You can avoid the blind shot (it’s a long obvious animation) and stop them from completing the hearseeker. They are now pretty kittened and will need to retreat.

I agree about the random deer etc. Those need to go. Not just for this, but for rally reasons as well. Being able to do it off of a wall is a bug that they are trying to fix. That has nothing to do with C&D/attacks from stealth not revealing though…

It is incredibly easy as a Thief to stealth and most means dont even require hitting anyone. Infact only CnD requires you to hit someone to get Stealth. And just because ONE SINGLE ability might actually fail to stealth if it is evaded, you shouldnt be revealed by a failed attack from Stealth?

You are burning through Block charges and Aegis. Aswell as Blind untill you actually land the hit you need. Thats silly.
Why should you be able to break through defenses that rely on limited charges by just spamming an attack without actually suffering any of the drawbacks from it?

It’s not silly because of ini. If you counter a thief trying to stealth it results in a far heavier penalty vs if they were using another class. If my stealth combos on eng are countered, my other skills don’t go on cooldown. I still have many many more attacks I can spam left.

Don’t use limited charges on those spammable attacks. That’s like using them against an auto attack. Why… those can be spammed too and break through defenses that rely on limited charges too. Save them for the specific instance where you need to counter a specific skill/combo. Yes that takes more skill, but it’s far more balanced overall that way. Otherwise it would be stupid easy… “Oh look he hit me with c&d, or did a stealth combo, and I didn’t counter it… let me pop a blind or block… I win anyways gg.” As if guardians don’t have an easy enough time against thieves as it is.

Hold on there. You do not get to use initiative as a shield.

Just cause you managed to pick one of the few situations iniative isnt a blessing does not mean you can say “… and that is why my attack shouldnt count as an attack when its inconvenient to me”.

Initiative is the whole reason perma-stealth even exists. You want to go and have cooldowns on your abilities like everyone else? Fine with me, that solves this whole mess in one go.

It’s not using it as a shield… it’s the reason why it’s balanced. Ini can be a double edged sword. Use that against the thief. That’s not the only situation where cooldowns are better than ini btw… but the thief class is balanced around ini. They would have to do a total rework to change it into a cooldown based class.

Fine with me. Would make landing those back stabs much more satisfying knowing that there was a risk of being revealed if I don’t get my timing correct. I’m up for anything that makes stealth more interesting.

Aberrant.6749:

Skye.4983:

There are so many people in this thread who lack basic comprehension skills and got completely off topic.

The idea that a blocked/dodged/missed attack should force reveal is perfectly reasonable and should be implemented.

Just calling something perfectly reasonable with no reasons behind it doesn’t somehow make it so…

Ok, here is a clue for you. When you use a thief venom skill, it is now used up even if the attack does not land. When you use any weapon skill, it goes into CD even if the attack does not land. When you use a utility skill on an enemy player and you do not land it because it was blocked/evaded/missed your utility skill goes into CD. Do you see a pattern here?

Haltair.3062:

Great. Another stealth thread.
Could any moderator take a look on these repeated threads?

Best,

Haltair, one of the Twelve shadows

you know you dont have to repeat whats in your signature right? its redundant and pretentious

Doesn’t bother me if it doesn’t. I still don’t have a problem with stealth.

I’m actually fine if it doesn’t. I don’t want to loose my adranaline just because I miss.

Skye.4983:

Aberrant.6749:

Skye.4983:

There are so many people in this thread who lack basic comprehension skills and got completely off topic.

The idea that a blocked/dodged/missed attack should force reveal is perfectly reasonable and should be implemented.

Just calling something perfectly reasonable with no reasons behind it doesn’t somehow make it so…

Ok, here is a clue for you. When you use a thief venom skill, it is now used up even if the attack does not land. When you use any weapon skill, it goes into CD even if the attack does not land. When you use a utility skill on an enemy player and you do not land it because it was blocked/evaded/missed your utility skill goes into CD. Do you see a pattern here?

and when a warrior misses a burst skill the adrenaline is used up…. Oh wait it’s not, they can use another burst skill right away….

Shemsu.8721:

Skye.4983:

Aberrant.6749:

Skye.4983:

There are so many people in this thread who lack basic comprehension skills and got completely off topic.

The idea that a blocked/dodged/missed attack should force reveal is perfectly reasonable and should be implemented.

Just calling something perfectly reasonable with no reasons behind it doesn’t somehow make it so…

Ok, here is a clue for you. When you use a thief venom skill, it is now used up even if the attack does not land. When you use any weapon skill, it goes into CD even if the attack does not land. When you use a utility skill on an enemy player and you do not land it because it was blocked/evaded/missed your utility skill goes into CD. Do you see a pattern here?

and when a warrior misses a burst skill the adrenaline is used up…. Oh wait it’s not, they can use another burst skill right away….

Actually, unless they swap to a different weapon, they have a cool down on their adrenaline skill. They don’t have to fill up though.

Shemsu.8721:

Skye.4983:

Aberrant.6749:

Skye.4983:

There are so many people in this thread who lack basic comprehension skills and got completely off topic.

The idea that a blocked/dodged/missed attack should force reveal is perfectly reasonable and should be implemented.

Just calling something perfectly reasonable with no reasons behind it doesn’t somehow make it so…

Ok, here is a clue for you. When you use a thief venom skill, it is now used up even if the attack does not land. When you use any weapon skill, it goes into CD even if the attack does not land. When you use a utility skill on an enemy player and you do not land it because it was blocked/evaded/missed your utility skill goes into CD. Do you see a pattern here?

and when a warrior misses a burst skill the adrenaline is used up…. Oh wait it’s not, they can use another burst skill right away….

As another person pointed out to you already, there is a CD on that skill regardless of whether they hit or miss. And it is going to be anywhere from 7 to 10 seconds long, versus 3 seconds on Revealed. So why don’t you try again.

And for the record, I think warrior’s adrenaline should be used up regardless of whether they hit or miss. But unlike you, I am trying to stick to the topic at hand and not throw spurious arguments around while trying to protect the precious little thieves.

And I did say earlier “It’s logical to me that active blocks should trigger revealed, all other – not since the attack doesn’t connect”(not sure about aegis/guard focus block). I play s/p thief, with stealth only on utilities so I don’t care much about “that” thing especially, just following logic. AND by that logic – blocks should block attacks only from the front 180 degrees – you want to tell me it’s logical that you raise your shield/mace in front of you and suddenly you block attacks from all directions? Also, phantasms shouldn’t miss when the mesmer is blinded, warriors should… etc, etc. So yeah, logic sucks.

The issue at hand isn’t whether it is ‘realistic’ or not. It’s that stealth attacks don’t require any interaction to pull off. Block, blind, dodge – it doesn’t matter. I just go 111111 and hope it hits, without having to worry about missing.

For every other attack in the game, I have to be careful that the enemy doesn’t have Aegis/some other defensive move, because it will still go on cooldown/use initiative.

Pavel.8531:

And I did say earlier “It’s logical to me that active blocks should trigger revealed, all other – not since the attack doesn’t connect”(not sure about aegis/guard focus block). I play s/p thief, with stealth only on utilities so I don’t care much about “that” thing especially, just following logic. AND by that logic – blocks should block attacks only from the front 180 degrees – you want to tell me it’s logical that you raise your shield/mace in front of you and suddenly you block attacks from all directions? Also, phantasms shouldn’t miss when the mesmer is blinded, warriors should… etc, etc. So yeah, logic sucks.

Let me try to make it simple for you, because you clearly don’t have a clue. We’re talking about whether or not an attack from stealth should reveal you, regardless of whether it actually connects with your target, the act of attacking itself should have an effect. Just like it does with every other skill/attack/utility (with the exception of warrior’s adrenaline, for those of you still clinging to that excuse). This is not about whether block should only work from 180 degrees or not, or whether or not stealth should even work in plain sight, or whether or not stabbing someone with a dagger should somehow make you invisible, or any other random, unrelated topic you’d like to throw out there. Logic, you haven’t got any.

Skye.4983:

Shemsu.8721:

Skye.4983:

Aberrant.6749:

Skye.4983:

There are so many people in this thread who lack basic comprehension skills and got completely off topic.

The idea that a blocked/dodged/missed attack should force reveal is perfectly reasonable and should be implemented.

Just calling something perfectly reasonable with no reasons behind it doesn’t somehow make it so…

Ok, here is a clue for you. When you use a thief venom skill, it is now used up even if the attack does not land. When you use any weapon skill, it goes into CD even if the attack does not land. When you use a utility skill on an enemy player and you do not land it because it was blocked/evaded/missed your utility skill goes into CD. Do you see a pattern here?

and when a warrior misses a burst skill the adrenaline is used up…. Oh wait it’s not, they can use another burst skill right away….

As another person pointed out to you already, there is a CD on that skill regardless of whether they hit or miss. And it is going to be anywhere from 7 to 10 seconds long, versus 3 seconds on Revealed. So why don’t you try again.

And for the record, I think warrior’s adrenaline should be used up regardless of whether they hit or miss. But unlike you, I am trying to stick to the topic at hand and not throw spurious arguments around while trying to protect the precious little thieves.

Okay, warriors have two weapon sets, they miss a burst skill, they swap and use another one, no cd.

As for the topic at hand, you want to apply the drawbacks of normal attacks to stealth attacks without applying the drawbacks of stealth attacks to normal attacks, and that is NOT logical. NO other attack requires a buff (stealth) to be active, requires position behind an enemy and requires melee range. So if you want backstab to cause revealed on any attack, then any attack should have the same requirements as backstab no? or should thief skills have all the drawbacks of every class on top of their own

Skye.4983:

Pavel.8531:

And I did say earlier “It’s logical to me that active blocks should trigger revealed, all other – not since the attack doesn’t connect”(not sure about aegis/guard focus block). I play s/p thief, with stealth only on utilities so I don’t care much about “that” thing especially, just following logic. AND by that logic – blocks should block attacks only from the front 180 degrees – you want to tell me it’s logical that you raise your shield/mace in front of you and suddenly you block attacks from all directions? Also, phantasms shouldn’t miss when the mesmer is blinded, warriors should… etc, etc. So yeah, logic sucks.

Let me try to make it simple for you, because you clearly don’t have a clue. We’re talking about whether or not an attack from stealth should reveal you, regardless of whether it actually connects with your target, the act of attacking itself should have an effect. Just like it does with every other skill/attack/utility (with the exception of warrior’s adrenaline, for those of you still clinging to that excuse). This is not about whether block should only work from 180 degrees or not, or whether or not stealth should even work in plain sight, or whether or not stabbing someone with a dagger should somehow make you invisible, or any other random, unrelated topic you’d like to throw out there. Logic, you haven’t got any.

Here’s the problem, your trying to apply your ‘logic’ from other attacks to backstab, without applying that same logic to all other systems. Since you didnt like my warrior example before, and since multiple people have used mesmer illusion skills, we will use that example.

Mesmer wants to summon a phantasm against a guardian, guardian pops aegis, mesmer presses #1 to counter aegis then proceeds to summon phantasm.

Thief goes stealth, guardian pops aegis. Now how does a thief counter aegis and retain his ability to use his stealth attack? same as the mesmer actually, he presses #1 to clear the aegis, then proceeds to backstab. If a blocked backstab caused reveal, what would be the counter to aegis? It would be an uncounterable defense against stealth attacks since anything the thief did would reveal him.

Shemsu.8721:

Skye.4983:

Shemsu.8721:

Skye.4983:

Aberrant.6749:

Skye.4983:

There are so many people in this thread who lack basic comprehension skills and got completely off topic.

The idea that a blocked/dodged/missed attack should force reveal is perfectly reasonable and should be implemented.

Just calling something perfectly reasonable with no reasons behind it doesn’t somehow make it so…

Ok, here is a clue for you. When you use a thief venom skill, it is now used up even if the attack does not land. When you use any weapon skill, it goes into CD even if the attack does not land. When you use a utility skill on an enemy player and you do not land it because it was blocked/evaded/missed your utility skill goes into CD. Do you see a pattern here?

and when a warrior misses a burst skill the adrenaline is used up…. Oh wait it’s not, they can use another burst skill right away….

As another person pointed out to you already, there is a CD on that skill regardless of whether they hit or miss. And it is going to be anywhere from 7 to 10 seconds long, versus 3 seconds on Revealed. So why don’t you try again.

And for the record, I think warrior’s adrenaline should be used up regardless of whether they hit or miss. But unlike you, I am trying to stick to the topic at hand and not throw spurious arguments around while trying to protect the precious little thieves.

Okay, warriors have two weapon sets, they miss a burst skill, they swap and use another one, no cd.

As for the topic at hand, you want to apply the drawbacks of normal attacks to stealth attacks without applying the drawbacks of stealth attacks to normal attacks, and that is NOT logical. NO other attack requires a buff (stealth) to be active, requires position behind an enemy and requires melee range. So if you want backstab to cause revealed on any attack, then any attack should have the same requirements as backstab no? or should thief skills have all the drawbacks of every class on top of their own

Warriors have two weapon sets, so do thieves, and the burst skills are different on each weapon set, so if the warrior misses the one he wants to use he can’t just switch to another that may be completely unsuited for the situation and just spam it. So your example makes nos sense, think before you type, or actually try to play profession that you’re talking about.

What drawback of stealth attacks are you talking about? The fact that you have to be INVISIBLE TO THE ENEMY in order to use it? Is that the drawback? Are you completely backwards? That is not the drawback of a stealth attack, a stealth attack is the benefit of being in stealth. The whole point of this discussion is that you remain in stealth despite attacking.

Shemsu.8721:

Skye.4983:

Pavel.8531:

And I did say earlier “It’s logical to me that active blocks should trigger revealed, all other – not since the attack doesn’t connect”(not sure about aegis/guard focus block). I play s/p thief, with stealth only on utilities so I don’t care much about “that” thing especially, just following logic. AND by that logic – blocks should block attacks only from the front 180 degrees – you want to tell me it’s logical that you raise your shield/mace in front of you and suddenly you block attacks from all directions? Also, phantasms shouldn’t miss when the mesmer is blinded, warriors should… etc, etc. So yeah, logic sucks.

Let me try to make it simple for you, because you clearly don’t have a clue. We’re talking about whether or not an attack from stealth should reveal you, regardless of whether it actually connects with your target, the act of attacking itself should have an effect. Just like it does with every other skill/attack/utility (with the exception of warrior’s adrenaline, for those of you still clinging to that excuse). This is not about whether block should only work from 180 degrees or not, or whether or not stealth should even work in plain sight, or whether or not stabbing someone with a dagger should somehow make you invisible, or any other random, unrelated topic you’d like to throw out there. Logic, you haven’t got any.

Here’s the problem, your trying to apply your ‘logic’ from other attacks to backstab, without applying that same logic to all other systems. Since you didnt like my warrior example before, and since multiple people have used mesmer illusion skills, we will use that example.

Mesmer wants to summon a phantasm against a guardian, guardian pops aegis, mesmer presses #1 to counter aegis then proceeds to summon phantasm.

Thief goes stealth, guardian pops aegis. Now how does a thief counter aegis and retain his ability to use his stealth attack? same as the mesmer actually, he presses #1 to clear the aegis, then proceeds to backstab. If a blocked backstab caused reveal, what would be the counter to aegis? It would be an uncounterable defense against stealth attacks since anything the thief did would reveal him.

You just want to have your cake and eat it too, don’t you? At least your warrior example made a tiny bit of sense. The mesmer one just makes me scratch my head. How does a thief counter Aegis? By attacking the guardian and THEN using stealth.

And yes it would be such an amazing defense against backstabs, I mean my god, 3 whole seconds of revealed, against the guardian’s 45 second refresh timer on aegis. Game over man, game over!

Skye.4983:

Shemsu.8721:

Skye.4983:

Pavel.8531:

And I did say earlier “It’s logical to me that active blocks should trigger revealed, all other – not since the attack doesn’t connect”(not sure about aegis/guard focus block). I play s/p thief, with stealth only on utilities so I don’t care much about “that” thing especially, just following logic. AND by that logic – blocks should block attacks only from the front 180 degrees – you want to tell me it’s logical that you raise your shield/mace in front of you and suddenly you block attacks from all directions? Also, phantasms shouldn’t miss when the mesmer is blinded, warriors should… etc, etc. So yeah, logic sucks.

Let me try to make it simple for you, because you clearly don’t have a clue. We’re talking about whether or not an attack from stealth should reveal you, regardless of whether it actually connects with your target, the act of attacking itself should have an effect. Just like it does with every other skill/attack/utility (with the exception of warrior’s adrenaline, for those of you still clinging to that excuse). This is not about whether block should only work from 180 degrees or not, or whether or not stealth should even work in plain sight, or whether or not stabbing someone with a dagger should somehow make you invisible, or any other random, unrelated topic you’d like to throw out there. Logic, you haven’t got any.

Here’s the problem, your trying to apply your ‘logic’ from other attacks to backstab, without applying that same logic to all other systems. Since you didnt like my warrior example before, and since multiple people have used mesmer illusion skills, we will use that example.

Mesmer wants to summon a phantasm against a guardian, guardian pops aegis, mesmer presses #1 to counter aegis then proceeds to summon phantasm.

Thief goes stealth, guardian pops aegis. Now how does a thief counter aegis and retain his ability to use his stealth attack? same as the mesmer actually, he presses #1 to clear the aegis, then proceeds to backstab. If a blocked backstab caused reveal, what would be the counter to aegis? It would be an uncounterable defense against stealth attacks since anything the thief did would reveal him.

You just want to have your cake and eat it too, don’t you? At least your warrior example made a tiny bit of sense. The mesmer one just makes me scratch my head. How does a thief counter Aegis? By attacking the guardian and THEN using stealth.

And yes it would be such an amazing defense against backstabs, I mean my god, 3 whole seconds of revealed, against the guardian’s 45 second refresh timer on aegis. Game over man, game over!

You wanna talk about having your cake and eating it to? yet you offer no counter to my argument except random insults. So i will again reiterate to you, you want backstab to work like other skills, fine, apply that logic across the board, backstab no longer requires stealth, or position behind enemy like all the examples you and others have listed

Shemsu.8721:

Skye.4983:

Shemsu.8721:

Skye.4983:

Pavel.8531:

And I did say earlier “It’s logical to me that active blocks should trigger revealed, all other – not since the attack doesn’t connect”(not sure about aegis/guard focus block). I play s/p thief, with stealth only on utilities so I don’t care much about “that” thing especially, just following logic. AND by that logic – blocks should block attacks only from the front 180 degrees – you want to tell me it’s logical that you raise your shield/mace in front of you and suddenly you block attacks from all directions? Also, phantasms shouldn’t miss when the mesmer is blinded, warriors should… etc, etc. So yeah, logic sucks.

Let me try to make it simple for you, because you clearly don’t have a clue. We’re talking about whether or not an attack from stealth should reveal you, regardless of whether it actually connects with your target, the act of attacking itself should have an effect. Just like it does with every other skill/attack/utility (with the exception of warrior’s adrenaline, for those of you still clinging to that excuse). This is not about whether block should only work from 180 degrees or not, or whether or not stealth should even work in plain sight, or whether or not stabbing someone with a dagger should somehow make you invisible, or any other random, unrelated topic you’d like to throw out there. Logic, you haven’t got any.

Here’s the problem, your trying to apply your ‘logic’ from other attacks to backstab, without applying that same logic to all other systems. Since you didnt like my warrior example before, and since multiple people have used mesmer illusion skills, we will use that example.

Mesmer wants to summon a phantasm against a guardian, guardian pops aegis, mesmer presses #1 to counter aegis then proceeds to summon phantasm.

Thief goes stealth, guardian pops aegis. Now how does a thief counter aegis and retain his ability to use his stealth attack? same as the mesmer actually, he presses #1 to clear the aegis, then proceeds to backstab. If a blocked backstab caused reveal, what would be the counter to aegis? It would be an uncounterable defense against stealth attacks since anything the thief did would reveal him.

You just want to have your cake and eat it too, don’t you? At least your warrior example made a tiny bit of sense. The mesmer one just makes me scratch my head. How does a thief counter Aegis? By attacking the guardian and THEN using stealth.

And yes it would be such an amazing defense against backstabs, I mean my god, 3 whole seconds of revealed, against the guardian’s 45 second refresh timer on aegis. Game over man, game over!

You wanna talk about having your cake and eating it to? yet you offer no counter to my argument except random insults. So i will again reiterate to you, you want backstab to work like other skills, fine, apply that logic across the board, backstab no longer requires stealth, or position behind enemy like all the examples you and others have listed

You have no argument. But to keep this thread on top I will respond to you anyway. Your so called argument is that you have to be in stealth in order to land a backstab, and somehow you think that is a drawback? Stealth is its own benefit, the fact that you can also land special attacks while being invisible is just gravy on top.

This is not about backstabs, this is about the fact that attacking someone does not reveal you, in effect making that player’s efforts to defend themselves meaningless. It makes a mockery of dodging or blocking because you can just whack away at someone until you land your stealth attack. No other attack (not counting 1) in the game lets you just spam it until it lands and only then put it on CD.

Shemsu.8721:

Skye.4983:

Shemsu.8721:

Skye.4983:

Pavel.8531:

And I did say earlier “It’s logical to me that active blocks should trigger revealed, all other – not since the attack doesn’t connect”(not sure about aegis/guard focus block). I play s/p thief, with stealth only on utilities so I don’t care much about “that” thing especially, just following logic. AND by that logic – blocks should block attacks only from the front 180 degrees – you want to tell me it’s logical that you raise your shield/mace in front of you and suddenly you block attacks from all directions? Also, phantasms shouldn’t miss when the mesmer is blinded, warriors should… etc, etc. So yeah, logic sucks.

Let me try to make it simple for you, because you clearly don’t have a clue. We’re talking about whether or not an attack from stealth should reveal you, regardless of whether it actually connects with your target, the act of attacking itself should have an effect. Just like it does with every other skill/attack/utility (with the exception of warrior’s adrenaline, for those of you still clinging to that excuse). This is not about whether block should only work from 180 degrees or not, or whether or not stealth should even work in plain sight, or whether or not stabbing someone with a dagger should somehow make you invisible, or any other random, unrelated topic you’d like to throw out there. Logic, you haven’t got any.

Here’s the problem, your trying to apply your ‘logic’ from other attacks to backstab, without applying that same logic to all other systems. Since you didnt like my warrior example before, and since multiple people have used mesmer illusion skills, we will use that example.

Mesmer wants to summon a phantasm against a guardian, guardian pops aegis, mesmer presses #1 to counter aegis then proceeds to summon phantasm.

Thief goes stealth, guardian pops aegis. Now how does a thief counter aegis and retain his ability to use his stealth attack? same as the mesmer actually, he presses #1 to clear the aegis, then proceeds to backstab. If a blocked backstab caused reveal, what would be the counter to aegis? It would be an uncounterable defense against stealth attacks since anything the thief did would reveal him.

You just want to have your cake and eat it too, don’t you? At least your warrior example made a tiny bit of sense. The mesmer one just makes me scratch my head. How does a thief counter Aegis? By attacking the guardian and THEN using stealth.

And yes it would be such an amazing defense against backstabs, I mean my god, 3 whole seconds of revealed, against the guardian’s 45 second refresh timer on aegis. Game over man, game over!

You wanna talk about having your cake and eating it to? yet you offer no counter to my argument except random insults. So i will again reiterate to you, you want backstab to work like other skills, fine, apply that logic across the board, backstab no longer requires stealth, or position behind enemy like all the examples you and others have listed

I think (s)he did. Attack guardian like any other class to remove aegis, then stealth and backstab. It does require a bit more skills from thief to actually look at boons that enemy has and then play accordingly to counter it. There is no logic that one profession should be exempt how aegis works.

Blinding Powder, 1-1-1-1-1-Backstab. Doesn’t typically matter what the other guy does to avoid it. The damage is high, the risk is minimal and IMO it feels cheap. Thief is even building initiative while this is happening.

Absolutely zero skill to pull it off as well. I am all for big damage with good play but my dog can probably pull this combo off.

Aberrant.6749:

nglcpyro.4906:

Don’t see a problem with this. Less invasive than changing revealed time/traits/skills etc whilst offering a ‘counter’ to stealth from all classes. It would make thieves (who use stealth the most) have to calculate the risk vs reward of attacking.

Would hit ability to ‘permastealth’ a bit which is the only problem with the thief class.

It would hit the thief class far harder than the revealed change did. There are already ways to counter them from entering stealth from C&D and the BP/HS combo. It would do nothing to stop permastealth, it would only encourage people to stay in stealth longer to wait until the block ended.

Coming from an ele (mesmer secondary and just finished up with S/D, D/P or Sbow Thief), it really wouldn’t be as bad as you think, not to mention it would ONLY affect block. Not stuns, evades, glancing, plain swinging in the air or anything, just blocks. Think about this way with the Ele RTL change. 40sec if you hit nothing, 20sec if you do from the previous flat 20sec. Kinda annoying but just means we have to make sure we use RTL wisely. Back to thief, attacking from stealth into a block would do the same, albeit in a much smaller way since it would just use up initiative and trigger revealed, not ‘remove’ the main X/D gap skill for an extra 20sec. That small 3 or 4 second revealed can completely change the flow of the fight. Shouldn’t be permastealthing in the first place so this change would only affect those people, not the good thieves out there

This guy has similar thinking:

Fine with me. Would make landing those back stabs much more satisfying knowing that there was a risk of being revealed if I don’t get my timing correct. I’m up for anything that makes stealth more interesting.

I think what a lot of non-thief players are forgetting is that if the target is moving you’ll likely only get 2 attempts at backstab before stealth runs out anyway, an that’s if you’re lucky.

And in regards to Aegis, that shouldn’t reveal because then every guardian regardless of build would have a straight-up counter to the first backstab. As for other blocks, they generally last as long as stealth does anyway so it does’nt really matter whether they cause revealed or not because it’ll be the same result either way.

Didn’t really bother reading through all the posts from thieves trying to justify this mechanic.
I completely agree that thieves should be revealed when blocked or miss an attack from stealth.

GeoPro.7530:

And in regards to Aegis, that shouldn’t reveal because then every guardian regardless of build would have a straight-up counter to the first backstab. As for other blocks, they generally last as long as stealth does anyway so it does’nt really matter whether they cause revealed or not because it’ll be the same result either way.

Yeah.. Because surely the thief won’t just put down another field and leap through it, gaining permanent stealth until your block has run out?

GeoPro.7530:

I think what a lot of non-thief players are forgetting is that if the target is moving you’ll likely only get 2 attempts at backstab before stealth runs out anyway, an that’s if you’re lucky.

*And in regards to Aegis, that shouldn’t reveal because then every guardian regardless of build would have a straight-up counter to the first backstab. *As for other blocks, they generally last as long as stealth does anyway so it doesn’t really matter whether they cause revealed or not because it’ll be the same result either way.

Pop Aegis before leading into the backstab combo. Is it really that hard to actually have to think before going into fights and calculating the situation? Every class has some well known opening/defense all of which can be countered. At least with a guardian you know exactly at least one thing they’ll have

Didn’t really bother reading through all the posts from thieves trying to justify this mechanic.
I completely agree that thieves should be revealed when blocked or miss an attack from stealth.

Not missed since that would destroy the class, just blocked triggering reveal.

I am curious why do you think it would destroy the class? Why should Blind or Dodge be any less effective against stealth attacks than any other? Many professions don’t have access to block.

Dodge at the right time = evade = 100% ability/attack missing so it is the single most effective tool to counter most damaging abilities, so it’s the reward for good play and thief shouldn’t be punished apart from usual initiative loss. Blinds already got changed so you can’t just swing wildly to get rid of it and based on the fact it’s a relatively common condition for all classes in some way so kind of unfair to also proc ‘Revealed’. Going to need experienced thieves thoughts on the blind issue.

Imagine for every other class, that missing an ability, no matter how, incurs an immediate 4 second CD on ALL abilities. Yes, it’s a hyperbole but the idea is that baisng ‘revealed’ on missing means you cannot miss a single ability from stealth , ever and there’s 0 counterplay to combat the humble dodge. Imagine this scenario for a thief going to sneak up onto a class. Person dodges initial thief stealth attack (3/4 sec reveal), thief stealth, tries again, person uses blind (3/4 sec reveal), whilst following times can be invulnerability, dodge, evades, blinds or simply being out of range. Didn’t include aegis since that’s what topic is about so basing replies if aegis did already proc ‘revealed’. Sure it would weaken permastealth which I would love, but for thieves who don’t rely on stealth attacking as much would be hit hard for no reason at all.

Kinda unfair IMO, hence Aegis proccing ‘revealed’ is a very subtle change that won’t affect the thief class as a whole but make a big impact in the right situations.

It’s no use trying to reason with most thieves on this matter. They are the only ones who think that landing a C&D gives them the right to spam a hugely damaging skill regardless of blocks, misses, evades or any other skillful counterplay. They point to Aegis as if even guardians can magically press a button to get it when they can just autoattack once to remove it and then stealth immediately after.

Ridiculous.

My suggestion is to not look to thieves for input. I’d made the same point months ago on the thief forum here; https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Remove-stealth-on-miss-evade-block-1/first

Anet should just go ahead and fix this issue. If you listen to the thieves, they’ll never agree. And why should they? They have it good right now.

I have met some reasonable thieves who see the point and are actually happy to have more skilled play. Hats off to them. But those who enjoy the no skill play and the protection that stealth provides them while they hammer away the “1” key will cry bloody murder.

Shemsu.8721:

Skye.4983:

Pavel.8531:

And I did say earlier “It’s logical to me that active blocks should trigger revealed, all other – not since the attack doesn’t connect”(not sure about aegis/guard focus block). I play s/p thief, with stealth only on utilities so I don’t care much about “that” thing especially, just following logic. AND by that logic – blocks should block attacks only from the front 180 degrees – you want to tell me it’s logical that you raise your shield/mace in front of you and suddenly you block attacks from all directions? Also, phantasms shouldn’t miss when the mesmer is blinded, warriors should… etc, etc. So yeah, logic sucks.

Let me try to make it simple for you, because you clearly don’t have a clue. We’re talking about whether or not an attack from stealth should reveal you, regardless of whether it actually connects with your target, the act of attacking itself should have an effect. Just like it does with every other skill/attack/utility (with the exception of warrior’s adrenaline, for those of you still clinging to that excuse). This is not about whether block should only work from 180 degrees or not, or whether or not stealth should even work in plain sight, or whether or not stabbing someone with a dagger should somehow make you invisible, or any other random, unrelated topic you’d like to throw out there. Logic, you haven’t got any.

Here’s the problem, your trying to apply your ‘logic’ from other attacks to backstab, without applying that same logic to all other systems. Since you didnt like my warrior example before, and since multiple people have used mesmer illusion skills, we will use that example.

Mesmer wants to summon a phantasm against a guardian, guardian pops aegis, mesmer presses #1 to counter aegis then proceeds to summon phantasm.

Thief goes stealth, guardian pops aegis. Now how does a thief counter aegis and retain his ability to use his stealth attack? same as the mesmer actually, he presses #1 to clear the aegis, then proceeds to backstab. If a blocked backstab caused reveal, what would be the counter to aegis? It would be an uncounterable defense against stealth attacks since anything the thief did would reveal him.

You’re joking right? Just wait till stealth wears off, autoattack and stealth again! It’s what every other class does. Be aware of your opponent’s boons.

nglcpyro.4906:

Dodge at the right time = evade = 100% ability/attack missing so it is the single most effective tool to counter most damaging abilities, so it’s the reward for good play and thief shouldn’t be punished apart from usual initiative loss. Blinds already got changed so you can’t just swing wildly to get rid of it and based on the fact it’s a relatively common condition for all classes in some way so kind of unfair to also proc ‘Revealed’. Going to need experienced thieves thoughts on the blind issue.

Imagine for every other class, that missing an ability, no matter how, incurs an immediate 4 second CD on ALL abilities. Yes, it’s a hyperbole but the idea is that baisng ‘revealed’ on missing means you cannot miss a single ability from stealth , ever and there’s 0 counterplay to combat the humble dodge. Imagine this scenario for a thief going to sneak up onto a class. Person dodges initial thief stealth attack (3/4 sec reveal), thief stealth, tries again, person uses blind (3/4 sec reveal), whilst following times can be invulnerability, dodge, evades, blinds or simply being out of range. Didn’t include aegis since that’s what topic is about so basing replies if aegis did already proc ‘revealed’. Sure it would weaken permastealth which I would love, but for thieves who don’t rely on stealth attacking as much would be hit hard for no reason at all.

Kinda unfair IMO, hence Aegis proccing ‘revealed’ is a very subtle change that won’t affect the thief class as a whole but make a big impact in the right situations.

I am not quite getting your example, so yeah the opposing player manages to blind/evade/block your stealth attack at the right moments, which is hard to time because he can’t even see you. And by doing that he forces you to be Revealed. You would have been revealed had your attack succeeded anyway. The ONLY difference in this scenario is that the opposing player has managed to avoid taking damage from your extremely powerful ability by using a defensive skill/ability at the right time. This is how it works for every other profession’s skills. And being revealed does not prevent you from using all your utilities/steal/weapon skills/elites/heal, you just cant go into stealth for 3 seconds, thats all, that is the shortest cool down of any ability.

A thief becomes Revealed during combat anyway, all the time. Except with this change, it makes it so that your stealth attack is not a guarantee, you don’t get to spam through dodge/block/aegis/blind while remaining invisible and just land your stealth attack anyway. If you somehow think that this change would be unfair to thieves then I am not sure what I can tell except to try other professions for a change so you can see how it works from more than one point of view.

I vaguely remember it being set for reveal on block, then A.net changed it for the better.
So suck it up buttercup. its not are fault you want to stand still and expect to win.
Next Thieve complaint: “Thieves walk on two legs, clearly op. nerf needed”

While stealth needs an overhaul, I don’t think a block should trigger reveal. That doesn’t make any sense.

Anything that deals damage to the enemy for even 1 tick/reflect should take someone out of stealth. They should then have to use re-stealthing moves. I know thieves have the remove-conditions-in stealth, but if that first tick goes off first, then the stealthing should cancel. Does that sound unfair?

When you’re playing a thief you know you’re not stealthed, but to the enemy you are. That’s why the class is broken. That’s why it’s very trolly and a joke on pvp as a whole.

Also, you don’t even need the stealth as much as you think you do, because you have the fastest movement outside of norn’s channeled become-the-bear. (GW2 wiki is not working right now to link), the highest unpredictable burst. Meaning you can dump mass crits from stealth. Your class has highest survivability when playing glass cannon.

You have no counter-claim that stands up vs the facts.

Skye.4983:

I am not quite getting your example, so yeah the opposing player manages to blind/evade/block your stealth attack at the right moments, which is hard to time because he can’t even see you. And by doing that he forces you to be Revealed. You would have been revealed had your attack succeeded anyway. The ONLY difference in this scenario is that the opposing player has managed to avoid taking damage from your extremely powerful ability by using a defensive skill/ability at the right time. This is how it works for every other profession’s skills. And being revealed does not prevent you from using all your utilities/steal/weapon skills/elites/heal, you just cant go into stealth for 3 seconds, thats all, that is the shortest cool down of any ability.

A thief becomes Revealed during combat anyway, all the time. Except with this change, it makes it so that your stealth attack is not a guarantee, you don’t get to spam through dodge/block/aegis/blind while remaining invisible and just land your stealth attack anyway. If you somehow think that this change would be unfair to thieves then I am not sure what I can tell except to try other professions for a change so you can see how it works from more than one point of view.

From earlier in case you missed:

Coming from an ele (mesmer secondary and just finished up with S/D, D/P or Sbow Thief),

If i see a thief stealth in the distance, I assume basilik/backstab variant opening, so wait till I think they’re near, then dodge into knockback/stun since I open with defensive Air. Not perfect but can help survive initial burst when i get it right. Like I said, the non usage of abilities was a massive unrealistic hyperbole, but only thing I could thing of to compare against though I could’ve come up with something a bit better in hindsight. Difference between hitting->revealed compared with missing-> revealed depending on what stealth ability was used causes revealed to trigger anything from 1-5 seconds earlier. Can’t remember exactly the max single stealth chain you can get traited so max is probably wrong though SR is 3 duration into 5 sec stealth. That tiny amount of time could be the difference between surviving or becoming downed hence allowing too much to trigger revealed possibly hurting the class.

Probably over-thinking about this as a hater of permastealth and my refusal to rely on stealth since I decided to make a thief eventually after a few months from launch whilst not affecting all other playstyles/weapons. Really need thief mains (and NOT the near perma stealth troll players) to weigh in on what you just said since they have way more thief credibility than me Honestly couldn’t care less just as long as it ONLY affects heavy stealth abusers. Do have a point though so assuming you either majority play a thief or know everything about thieves.. which is more than me and think I’m starting to confuse myself as well now.

In short, agree with Blocked triggering revealed, but a little weary about misses triggering revealed if it affects other builds or the class a lot. No more long replies too to save scrolling since I think I’ve covered everything!