Guild Wars 2

Zack.7863:

Let me say this:

If you are not in NA tier one, by metrics, you just don’t count. The numbers don’t lie, and personally, I couldn’t care less about Tier 8 matches. I don’t hate the people in the lower tiers, but lets look at this logically. From what I’m reading, it seems as though the majority of you want to ruin a game mode that is very well balanced for the larger portion of players. There’s a difference between the number of servers and participation population. Yes T8-3 has a significantly less player density WvWing than T1. EURO server don’t even come close. Even without this mechanic, you are losing a match up that your server would have already lost anyways.
Low tier matches are not an excuse to change a great mechanic that fixes huge problems for the majority of the game type’s population. This is not because anyone hates you, we simply need to treat all players equally. Making changes to orb buffs on the grounds that vastly lower populated servers are still losing their matches is illogical.
On the subject of roaming (away from objectives) and small engagements, while I understand why you may find this change unfavorable you are not part of the discussion about the game type. There is no incentive for small 5 vs 5. They are fun, but you cannot expect actions that do not help the goal of the game type to be taken into account during balancing, that is illogical. You can now become part of wvw by attempting to capture Blood Lust.
In Games, the goal of balancing is to incentivize actions towards the GOAL of the game. In WvW the goal is to be the server with the most war points at the end of a 7 day match.
WvW IS about PPT. Yes PPT comes from coverage, yes siege helps alot, yes some times you need 40+ players killing less than 10 players for gain PPT/war points. That is the game type. Don’t ask to change mechanics that are fixing problems for the majority of players attempting to achieve the goal of the game type.
You may see a lot of posts here about how bad blood lust is, but everyone from a low pop server is the loud minority. And anyone talking about small engagements (that are not expressly for capturing Blood Lust) are off topic as they are not incentivized in the game type.

That said, Blood lust has been an amazing update. The dev team surpassed my highest expectations and added new life to an old game type while fixing many major problems.

So basically you’re extending a giant middle finger to everyone who is not in a T1 server. And you’re saying we really don’t count as players. All the money we spend and the countless hours we’ve put into the game don’t mean squat, according to you. Oh, and even though on every T3-T8 server the bloodlust buff is a huge disaster that almost exclusively favors the top server, because it works in T1 it works as intended and is totally fine. Wow, just wow. I’m speechless. Did krait eat your cerebral cortex?

I may be old fashioned, but I believe in server loyalty. I’ve stuck with NSP since launch because I like the people on the server. When you buy a product like GW2 you expect to get the full package, regardless of what server you are on. Unless they want to start printing “WvW may not work as intended for 80% of servers” on the box then I really don’t think your opinion carries much weight.

Entropy.4732:

Zack.7863:

Let me say this:

If you are not in NA tier one, by metrics, you just don’t count. The numbers don’t lie, and personally, I couldn’t care less about Tier 8 matches. I don’t hate the people in the lower tiers, but lets look at this logically. From what I’m reading, it seems as though the majority of you want to ruin a game mode that is very well balanced for the larger portion of players. There’s a difference between the number of servers and participation population. Yes T8-3 has a significantly less player density WvWing than T1. EURO server don’t even come close. Even without this mechanic, you are losing a match up that your server would have already lost anyways.
Low tier matches are not an excuse to change a great mechanic that fixes huge problems for the majority of the game type’s population. This is not because anyone hates you, we simply need to treat all players equally. Making changes to orb buffs on the grounds that vastly lower populated servers are still losing their matches is illogical.
On the subject of roaming (away from objectives) and small engagements, while I understand why you may find this change unfavorable you are not part of the discussion about the game type. There is no incentive for small 5 vs 5. They are fun, but you cannot expect actions that do not help the goal of the game type to be taken into account during balancing, that is illogical. You can now become part of wvw by attempting to capture Blood Lust.
In Games, the goal of balancing is to incentivize actions towards the GOAL of the game. In WvW the goal is to be the server with the most war points at the end of a 7 day match.
WvW IS about PPT. Yes PPT comes from coverage, yes siege helps alot, yes some times you need 40+ players killing less than 10 players for gain PPT/war points. That is the game type. Don’t ask to change mechanics that are fixing problems for the majority of players attempting to achieve the goal of the game type.
You may see a lot of posts here about how bad blood lust is, but everyone from a low pop server is the loud minority. And anyone talking about small engagements (that are not expressly for capturing Blood Lust) are off topic as they are not incentivized in the game type.

That said, Blood lust has been an amazing update. The dev team surpassed my highest expectations and added new life to an old game type while fixing many major problems.

So basically you’re extending a giant middle finger to everyone who is not in a T1 server. And you’re saying we really don’t count as players. All the money we spend and the countless hours we’ve put into the game don’t mean squat, according to you. Oh, and even though on every T3-T8 server the bloodlust buff is a huge disaster that almost exclusively favors the top server, because it works in T1 it works as intended and is totally fine. Wow, just wow. I’m speechless. Did krait eat your cerebral cortex?

I may be old fashioned, but I believe in server loyalty. I’ve stuck with NSP since launch because I like the people on the server. When you buy a product like GW2 you expect to get the full package, regardless of what server you are on. Unless they want to start printing “WvW may not work as intended for 80% of servers” on the box then I really don’t think your opinion carries much weight.

I’m saying your money and time only count as much as mine, and T1 has more players and a even population, if we balance the game we should keep the vast majority of players in mind. And it happens the majority is NA T1.

I am almost positive that the top 3 servers don’t out number the 21 other servers combined. If anything, T1 is part of the “vocal minority”.

Sovereign.1093:

Araris.7839:

I personally love the bloodlust, on blackgate, it seems it’s usually myself and maybe small groups of 2-3 actually doing the points and holding them. Which I believe was the intention?

Working great over here.

Your server already has the numbers to do everything else, and could afford to split up. Whereas other servers, especially lower tiered servers fighting undermanned will have to defend structures and couldn’t spend what little man power the have to cap nodes at that expense.

The problem of course, here, is if you’re on the weaker server, you’re pretty much doomed.

Gone where the days where it’s common for 10 or 15 to beat 25-30.

I get that populations may be a factor on other servers, but again, after doing more WvW for around..oh, 4 hours today, I can really say that I seen 1 group of 4-5 players. The rest were in little duo’s and mostly solo’s holding the points.

Needing the majority of players to zerg in order to capture a tower is a given, but sacrificing 2-5 players, 1 solid group, to hold points on a map that give an advantage is something any server can do if they choose to.

Bottom line is, people are complaining that this is a balance issue in favor of a server with larger numbers. How? This isn’t content for a mass of people to do, it would put a drain on manpower if a server used large groups for it. That’s simply not the case. The reality is, I see most points going white because not 1 single person cares to go and sit on it.

Araris. You are wrong about sparing the 2-5 players.

Consider this. kaineng is not even down with the lowest servers. On each BL at any random time we might have 1 group of 5 people. If we gather up all three borderlands, we may have a zerg of 13-15.

That is 15 players to take and defend… sorry sparing 5 for bloodlust when they will get rolled on by 15 is a waste.

YOU may be able to spare those players… but most of the silver league will not be able to spare those numbers.

Ostra.3927:

Araris. You are wrong about sparing the 2-5 players.

Consider this. kaineng is not even down with the lowest servers. On each BL at any random time we might have 1 group of 5 people. If we gather up all three borderlands, we may have a zerg of 13-15.

That is 15 players to take and defend… sorry sparing 5 for bloodlust when they will get rolled on by 15 is a waste.

YOU may be able to spare those players… but most of the silver league will not be able to spare those numbers.

This is where I look at my cheeseburger in wonder, realizing that most third world populations survive on whatever they can find in the gutter that day.

Ostra.3927:

Araris. You are wrong about sparing the 2-5 players.

Consider this. kaineng is not even down with the lowest servers. On each BL at any random time we might have 1 group of 5 people. If we gather up all three borderlands, we may have a zerg of 13-15.

That is 15 players to take and defend… sorry sparing 5 for bloodlust when they will get rolled on by 15 is a waste.

YOU may be able to spare those players… but most of the silver league will not be able to spare those numbers.

So, so true. And when our keep is attacked we need every available player on all maps to even stand a chance of keeping it against the hordes of SBI.

Sovereign.1093:

The premise behind wvw is numbers and coverage will result to victory. There hasn’t been any move to fix this problem since day one up to now. Hopefully that will change in the future.

Blood lust does exactly this if the server are anywhere near the same population it is an important first step.

Can we also remember that the EU leagues exist as well where our population is spread much more evenly.

rfdarko.4639:

I am almost positive that the top 3 servers don’t out number the 21 other servers combined. If anything, T1 is part of the “vocal minority”.

While one would may think this, the number of guilds that actively WvW in T1 NA daily and the number or users each guild has does indeed shadow every other server.

it is not uncommon for there to be a Que on all maps even on week days during peak hours.

Are the servers with only 15-20 people in WvW also pretty empty in PvE? Maybe its time for Anet to merge some of the lower tier servers if that’s the case. It’s absurd.

Ostra.3927:

Araris. You are wrong about sparing the 2-5 players.

Consider this. kaineng is not even down with the lowest servers. On each BL at any random time we might have 1 group of 5 people. If we gather up all three borderlands, we may have a zerg of 13-15.

That is 15 players to take and defend… sorry sparing 5 for bloodlust when they will get rolled on by 15 is a waste.

YOU may be able to spare those players… but most of the silver league will not be able to spare those numbers.

I think this post illustrates my point perfectly. I am not saying that players in lower tiers count less, they count the same amount of any player. And there are far less of them than in NA T1. Balance should focus on making matches where the majority of players participate balanced and enjoyable. If the mid tiers (lets say t4-6) of NA held the majority of players then that is where the balance should be focused on. If the majority of wvw population was Top tiers of EU, then that should be the benchmark; however, it is not. The majority of players (not just the match up with the most players) play NA T1 represented now by Blackgate, Sanctum of Rall and Jade Quarry.

The Blood lust buff fixes many of the problems the majority of WvW player experience.

In terms of numbers its simply a net win.

Araris.7839:

Are the servers with only 15-20 people in WvW also pretty empty in PvE? Maybe its time for Anet to merge some of the lower tier servers if that’s the case. It’s absurd.

I would fully support this.

Zack.7863:

Ostra.3927:

Araris. You are wrong about sparing the 2-5 players.

Consider this. kaineng is not even down with the lowest servers. On each BL at any random time we might have 1 group of 5 people. If we gather up all three borderlands, we may have a zerg of 13-15.

That is 15 players to take and defend… sorry sparing 5 for bloodlust when they will get rolled on by 15 is a waste.

YOU may be able to spare those players… but most of the silver league will not be able to spare those numbers.

I think this post illustrates my point perfectly. I am not saying that players in lower tiers count less, they count the same amount of any player. And there are far less of them than in NA T1. Balance should focus on making matches where the majority of players participate balanced and enjoyable. If the mid tiers (lets say t4-6) of NA held the majority of players then that is where the balance should be focused on. If the majority of wvw population was Top tiers of EU, then that should be the benchmark; however, it is not. The majority of players (not just the match up with the most players) play NA T1 represented now by Blackgate, Sanctum of Rall and Jade Quarry.

The Blood lust buff fixes many of the problems the majority of WvW player experience.

In terms of numbers its simply a net win.

So you’re saying that there are more WvW players in T1 than in the rest of the tiers combined?

Lord Kuru.3685:

Zack.7863:

Ostra.3927:

Araris. You are wrong about sparing the 2-5 players.

Consider this. kaineng is not even down with the lowest servers. On each BL at any random time we might have 1 group of 5 people. If we gather up all three borderlands, we may have a zerg of 13-15.

That is 15 players to take and defend… sorry sparing 5 for bloodlust when they will get rolled on by 15 is a waste.

YOU may be able to spare those players… but most of the silver league will not be able to spare those numbers.

I think this post illustrates my point perfectly. I am not saying that players in lower tiers count less, they count the same amount of any player. And there are far less of them than in NA T1. Balance should focus on making matches where the majority of players participate balanced and enjoyable. If the mid tiers (lets say t4-6) of NA held the majority of players then that is where the balance should be focused on. If the majority of wvw population was Top tiers of EU, then that should be the benchmark; however, it is not. The majority of players (not just the match up with the most players) play NA T1 represented now by Blackgate, Sanctum of Rall and Jade Quarry.

The Blood lust buff fixes many of the problems the majority of WvW player experience.

In terms of numbers its simply a net win.

So you’re saying that there are more WvW players in T1 than in the rest of the tiers combined?

I’m saying the majority of the population of all regular WvW players in housed withing the top 3 NA servers.

Zack.7863:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Zack.7863:

Ostra.3927:

Araris. You are wrong about sparing the 2-5 players.

Consider this. kaineng is not even down with the lowest servers. On each BL at any random time we might have 1 group of 5 people. If we gather up all three borderlands, we may have a zerg of 13-15.

That is 15 players to take and defend… sorry sparing 5 for bloodlust when they will get rolled on by 15 is a waste.

YOU may be able to spare those players… but most of the silver league will not be able to spare those numbers.

I think this post illustrates my point perfectly. I am not saying that players in lower tiers count less, they count the same amount of any player. And there are far less of them than in NA T1. Balance should focus on making matches where the majority of players participate balanced and enjoyable. If the mid tiers (lets say t4-6) of NA held the majority of players then that is where the balance should be focused on. If the majority of wvw population was Top tiers of EU, then that should be the benchmark; however, it is not. The majority of players (not just the match up with the most players) play NA T1 represented now by Blackgate, Sanctum of Rall and Jade Quarry.

The Blood lust buff fixes many of the problems the majority of WvW player experience.

In terms of numbers its simply a net win.

So you’re saying that there are more WvW players in T1 than in the rest of the tiers combined?

I’m saying the majority of the population of all regular WvW players in housed withing the top 3 NA servers.

Hogwash.

Zack.7863:

Ostra.3927:

Araris. You are wrong about sparing the 2-5 players.

Consider this. kaineng is not even down with the lowest servers. On each BL at any random time we might have 1 group of 5 people. If we gather up all three borderlands, we may have a zerg of 13-15.

That is 15 players to take and defend… sorry sparing 5 for bloodlust when they will get rolled on by 15 is a waste.

YOU may be able to spare those players… but most of the silver league will not be able to spare those numbers.

I think this post illustrates my point perfectly. I am not saying that players in lower tiers count less, they count the same amount of any player. And there are far less of them than in NA T1. Balance should focus on making matches where the majority of players participate balanced and enjoyable. If the mid tiers (lets say t4-6) of NA held the majority of players then that is where the balance should be focused on. If the majority of wvw population was Top tiers of EU, then that should be the benchmark; however, it is not. The majority of players (not just the match up with the most players) play NA T1 represented now by Blackgate, Sanctum of Rall and Jade Quarry.

The Blood lust buff fixes many of the problems the majority of WvW player experience.

In terms of numbers its simply a net win.

If you are so brilliant and have seen ANet’s “master plan” in balancing only for the T1 Servers…

Why is it that we are about to start a League/Season format where you will hardly ever face each other in anything resembling a balanced match again?

Entropy.4732:

Zack.7863:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Zack.7863:

Ostra.3927:

Araris. You are wrong about sparing the 2-5 players.

Consider this. kaineng is not even down with the lowest servers. On each BL at any random time we might have 1 group of 5 people. If we gather up all three borderlands, we may have a zerg of 13-15.

That is 15 players to take and defend… sorry sparing 5 for bloodlust when they will get rolled on by 15 is a waste.

YOU may be able to spare those players… but most of the silver league will not be able to spare those numbers.

I think this post illustrates my point perfectly. I am not saying that players in lower tiers count less, they count the same amount of any player. And there are far less of them than in NA T1. Balance should focus on making matches where the majority of players participate balanced and enjoyable. If the mid tiers (lets say t4-6) of NA held the majority of players then that is where the balance should be focused on. If the majority of wvw population was Top tiers of EU, then that should be the benchmark; however, it is not. The majority of players (not just the match up with the most players) play NA T1 represented now by Blackgate, Sanctum of Rall and Jade Quarry.

The Blood lust buff fixes many of the problems the majority of WvW player experience.

In terms of numbers its simply a net win.

So you’re saying that there are more WvW players in T1 than in the rest of the tiers combined?

I’m saying the majority of the population of all regular WvW players in housed withing the top 3 NA servers.

Hogwash.

Think of it as hours played by individual players, not # of players who occasionally play WvW. We are talking about people who hardly even touch pve or spvp. You’d be very surprised. Hardcore T1 players often play anywhere from 4-8 hours of wvw a day. Sometimes even more.

Measuring purely by players who enter wvw once in a while is no where near the same as measuring by hours played per day, per player.

Each player is a customer, and as such should be treated as equals. To say that only the tier 1 count has no merit.

Sovereign.1093:

Each player is a customer, and as such should be treated as equals. To say that only the tier 1 count has no merit.

Tier 1 wvw players play more often and there are more of them, which means more customers and more potential for money. If they break something that is balanced for even coverage (like T1) then they will lose all that potential money from T1 players, which there are a lot of.

They have yet to balance WVW and it remains to be broken. And they are already losing money and players. Potentials are well and good but reality is what must be addressed.

And if they only cater tier 1, what about the other tiers in EU and NA? Ignore them? They might as well never have created the tiers and consolidate all players into a bigger server/world into three mega worlds; so they’d only be 1 tier in na and 1 tier in Eu.

if someone thinks that the majority of the WvW players are in tier 1, they need to spend some time outside of tier 1 and get a healthy dose of reality.

Zack.7863:

Let me say this:

If you are not in NA tier one, by metrics, you just don’t count.

Your point of view would have some merit if Arenanet could satisfy two preconditions:

A) the entire game’s WvW population can be hosted on 3 servers without ill effects on the game experience
B) transfers to those 3 servers are free and permanently available

As it is, we’re not even remotely close to it, so your “dream” of Arenanet catering exclusively to NA T1 means the death of WvW, simple as that.

Right now NA T1 is an overwhelming MINORITY of the game’s WvW population. If and when enough people get fed up to make it the majority, then you’ll have your wish came true. Not sure I’d be glad about it, though.

Anet needs to get players from PvE, so that means the largest amount of potential players are outside of T1. Catering only to T1 is the fastest way to get WvW killed.

Still waiting on bloodlust stat bonus removal before i start playing, come on Anet ; p

I don’t think anyone is complaining about the ruins themselves…adding objectives to the map for roaming groups and giving smaller groups objectives that can be taken that help the server as a whole is awesome (stomp points is a great mechanic) and the ruins are set up well.

The problem is the stat buff’s….give it something else that will contribute to helping your server, I like the stomp points…keep that, Increased siege damage, decrease dmg taken from siege…double or triple WxP for everyone on your server…I dunno something… anything other than stat buff’s, I get it needs to be something worthwhile to make people want them, but there has to be something other than server wide stat buffs that will still make people want to go there and fight for it!

Something like the out manned buff for your pve server kuhehe. >3<

Zack.7863:

Lord Kuru.3685:

Zack.7863:

Ostra.3927:

Araris. You are wrong about sparing the 2-5 players.

Consider this. kaineng is not even down with the lowest servers. On each BL at any random time we might have 1 group of 5 people. If we gather up all three borderlands, we may have a zerg of 13-15.

That is 15 players to take and defend… sorry sparing 5 for bloodlust when they will get rolled on by 15 is a waste.

YOU may be able to spare those players… but most of the silver league will not be able to spare those numbers.

I think this post illustrates my point perfectly. I am not saying that players in lower tiers count less, they count the same amount of any player. And there are far less of them than in NA T1. Balance should focus on making matches where the majority of players participate balanced and enjoyable. If the mid tiers (lets say t4-6) of NA held the majority of players then that is where the balance should be focused on. If the majority of wvw population was Top tiers of EU, then that should be the benchmark; however, it is not. The majority of players (not just the match up with the most players) play NA T1 represented now by Blackgate, Sanctum of Rall and Jade Quarry.

The Blood lust buff fixes many of the problems the majority of WvW player experience.

In terms of numbers its simply a net win.

So you’re saying that there are more WvW players in T1 than in the rest of the tiers combined?

I’m saying the majority of the population of all regular WvW players in housed withing the top 3 NA servers.

Is this a joke? I’ve played on T8 and seen 1hr map queues no problem, depending on the matchup.

Population issues don’t have to do with raw player numbers, they have to do with fairweather players that clog up WvW on easy matchups and tuck tail and run on touch matchup weeks. When you in a T1 server fight a T2 or T3 server, you are only seeing a fraction of the people who play when they are matched up against a T4 or T5 server.

So T1 servers only have marginally more people than other servers, they are just overall better and better coordinated, and don’t have to deal with the people who only show for the easy karma train.

Sovereign.1093:

Each player is a customer, and as such should be treated as equals. To say that only the tier 1 count has no merit.

I totally agree. It’s like arguing that faulty Firestone tires work great on BMW’s and Porshes so who cares that they blow out on station wagons and ford trucks, killing consumers. It’s the most elitist argument I’ve heard yet on theses forums. The idea that us T6 servers don’t fight as hard or play as long is also completely absurd and insulting. Our commanders are sometimes on all day and night. Smitry once played for 15 hours straight on reset night. There have easily been 4-5 hour matches. We have devoted players that are on every day and very coordinated attacks. The only problem is we have less overall population than other servers. But to argue we don’t fight as hard is absurd. This is one of the reasons bloodlust is such a slap in the face of underdog servers. We were already fighting with every ounce of strength to keep our ranks, then bloodlust comes along and BAM, even more imbalance. We’re just tired of being kicked while we are down.

Rackhir Tanelorn.9123:

I think it is now time to play “Which Dev is Shiren?”

That’s a good way to participate in a constructive discussion. Do you want to bring my race, religion or politics into it as well or can we discuss the game mechanic and not the person?

Rackhir Tanelorn.9123:

And how does it not favor the zerg? +300 to +900 Stat Points seems quite handy for everyone. Are you saying it is because the location/terrain doesn’t favor Zergs? Here’s a news flash for ya – the population gap is so large between NA Tiers the dominant Servers can put 15 in the Ruins and still have 40-60 attacking/defending locations. The less-populated Servers simply can’t. They don’t have the numbers to fight on 4 maps. They don’t have the numbers to split their forces on a single map.

Sounds like a population issue and not a bloodlust issue. Are you blaming the bloodlust mechanic for the pre-existing population issues? Population differences sucked before the buff and they will suck if it is ever removed. Almost anything you do in WvW is going to favour the server with more numbers. Population differences are created by 24/7 matches (the coverage game) and by “transfer wars” and “diversity” in match making. It’s not created by bloodlust. I’d also like to point out that the numbers you quote are unrealistic for the majority of servers the majority of the time. A lot of the time, 15 people is close to the number of people on the map.

Adapt or die. Stacking on a single map is boring and it’s a bad meta for the game. It results in EB being the only viable place for consistent fighting… and usually that’s just zerging mindlessly usually playing musical towers, organised small guild groups end up fighting out for space against giant zergs (even in lower ranked servers EB can get a queue). Over the last two weeks I’ve set up shop on enemy BLs where I capped the spawn tower and occasionally hills while running supply camp circuits in between capping or maintaining the bloodlust buff with a group fluctuating between three and 15 people. For a group that’s not big enough to reliably make a dent in EB and a group that doesn’t want to sit on home borderlands waiting for something to happen, the bloodlust buff has added more value to being on an enemy borderlands.

The buff favours everyone on your server and that’s why it’s valuable, but obtaining the buff doesn’t favour zerg gameplay. Zergs are full of mindless players who usually can’t think for themselves. They follow the blue tag and use safety in (usually superior) numbers to fuel their karma trains. The ruins can be zerged but it will require a certain degree of splitting (need three points) and no zerg is going to want to sit around in the ruins to maintain it, so the smaller groups will take over, which is actual meaningful gameplay for smaller groups. If you’re in a situation where your server has only 15 people and the enemy has 60 you were going to get stomped regardless of whether there is a buff or not. That’s not a buff issue, it’s a population issue.

Rackhir Tanelorn.9123:

Outside of the rare semi-balanced match WvW is purely a game of numbers and coverage both tactically and strategically and a Buff that makes the strategically-stronger force tactically stronger as well is stupid if you want to encourage participation.

Are you arguing they should dumb down the arena so that strategy and tactically inept players can compete on even ground with players who are strategically and tactically superior? Again your point seems to be dealing with population issues and not the buff itself.

Rackhir Tanelorn.9123:

Buffing the Server with the largest numbers so they are now that much stronger Defenders and asking Outnumbered players to take them out while both weaker and having each Stomp put their own Server a further 1-3 Points behind is absolutely idiotic.

The buff doesn’t favour the server with the largest numbers, it favours the server with the buff. Obtaining the buff doesn’t favour the server with the largest numbers, it favours the server with the best balance between numbers and skill attempting to take the buff. You assume that the server with the most people in WvW is the one that is going to take the buff. In my experience since it was introduced that is absolutely not the case. Even in a blow out match the strongest server will frequently have situations where they are outnumbered during certain times of the day. I’ve frequently been able to take and hold the buff against enemy servers during this time. They had more people and more points, but while holding our tower, flipping hills and running supply camp circuits, we were frequently and consistently able to take and maintain the buff.

Also… ON TOP OF THAT….the BIGGER the difference between the two…the MORE likely it is that the larger server will have had it even longer.

This is the design reality of WvW. It’s not a bloodlust issue, this is going to be the reality for everything. Should tower upgrades be removed because the strongest server will have them most of the time? What about towers and keeps? What about supply camps? You are talking about a format created on the foundation that numbers and coverage are not going to be equal. Most of what they add to the format (and everything already in the format) is going to favour more people.

If your big picture is that the strongest server in the match will, on average, hold the buff the longest, that same argument could be used to remove Stonemist or the ability to upgrade anything. I wouldn’t mind betting that same argument could be used to remove WvW ranks. The winning server probably has more WvW ranks across their player base than the losing ones.

It has the potential to make a bad situation worse, but it also has the potential to add new meaningful gameplay (meaningful to their server) for those who want to take advantage of it.

I don’t believe it’s right to attribute issues caused by population imbalances to the bloodlust buff. The buff certainly has the potential to enhance that issue, but as far as I’ve seen that’s not always the case. Just like an organised guild has the ability to defeat a zerg with more than twice their numbers, a smaller population of players can utilise the buff effectively to aid their entire server. Unlike the old orb mechanic or even tower and keep upgrades, the buff is a very active mechanic and I think that’s why a lot of people don’t like it. It often requires active maintenance and roaming to capture and maintain.

Shiren.9532:

Also… ON TOP OF THAT….the BIGGER the difference between the two…the MORE likely it is that the larger server will have had it even longer.

This is the design reality of WvW. It’s not a bloodlust issue, this is going to be the reality for everything. Should tower upgrades be removed because the strongest server will have them most of the time? What about towers and keeps? What about supply camps? You are talking about a format created on the foundation that numbers and coverage are not going to be equal. Most of what they add to the format (and everything already in the format) is going to favour more people.

If your big picture is that the strongest server in the match will, on average, hold the buff the longest, that same argument could be used to remove Stonemist or the ability to upgrade anything. I wouldn’t mind betting that same argument could be used to remove WvW ranks. The winning server probably has more WvW ranks across their player base than the losing ones.

It has the potential to make a bad situation worse, but it also has the potential to add new meaningful gameplay (meaningful to their server) for those who want to take advantage of it.

I don’t believe it’s right to attribute issues caused by population imbalances to the bloodlust buff. The buff certainly has the potential to enhance that issue, but as far as I’ve seen that’s not always the case. Just like an organised guild has the ability to defeat a zerg with more than twice their numbers, a smaller population of players can utilise the buff effectively to aid their entire server. Unlike the old orb mechanic or even tower and keep upgrades, the buff is a very active mechanic and I think that’s why a lot of people don’t like it. It often requires active maintenance and roaming to capture and maintain.

No they are not the same…and you are absolutely right about stonemist, but the difference is…Stonemist doesn’t give you a stat buff when you own it.

right, i’m agreeing with you on that the bloodlust buff is NOT the cause of the population imbalance. Stonemist is a great example, same thing, the larger server will more than likely hold it more than the others…the difference is…now you are tying a server wide stat boosting buff….is it a HUGE buff and causing a GREAT imbalance that wasn’t already there…no…but is it making the issue WORSE for the already imbalanced matchups…I think so. I like the ruins and I like getting some sort of buff (I really like the stomp points) because its different and interesting, but giving them the stat buff is my issue.

Instead of addressing the issue of imbalances in population or maybe taking a step to not make it as bad or try to balance it…they went the opposite way and IMO exacerbated the problem…

Post all you want Shiren but you are going to continue to receive hateful replies back because what you are proposing only sounds good on paper. The population imbalances between Servers are far too large to be overcome by any level of “tactics” or “strategy” and as people have stated many times it is a really bad idea to put in a mechanic that makes a current prominent design flaw even worse.

You might even get more credit and respect for your position if ANet had announced that they were going back to Tier/Rank-based Matches where differences in population and coverage aren’t so pronounced but instead they are doing the opposite by implementing Leagues/Seasons ensuring that imbalanced matches will happen even more often than they do now (as hard as that is to believe).

There is no “meaningful” gameplay that can be achieved by Servers to any degree of success. Theoretically you are right, but only in theory. The population discrepancies are simply too large. Coverage matters too much.

Last week saw a TC-FA-DB match. FA pursued an aggressive strategy of trying to hold the buffs and use that to their advantage. All it did was allow them to pull ahead of DB (something they were already doing anyway) and close the gap with TC to only 90k. It was still a blowout due to coverage.

At almost any time, at will, that TC wanted the Buff they were able to get it. Upon seizing it they could use their combination of Passive Buffs and superior numbers to seize any objectives they might have lost.

If from a strategic sense lower-ranked Servers have no chance against higher-ranked Servers then participating in the weeklong match is meaningless. If tactically lower-ranked Servers find themselves frequently going up against both larger numbers and Passive Buffs the chances of good, fun fights are greatly diminished.

And at that point it is meaningless to even play.

And once it is meaningless to play, once it is no longer fun to play…

A game dies.

Google doesn’t lie…

Araris.7839:

Are the servers with only 15-20 people in WvW also pretty empty in PvE? Maybe its time for Anet to merge some of the lower tier servers if that’s the case. It’s absurd.

Doing temple with 3~5 people is relatively common in HOD.
Lower event may have more people, but non-prime time number is less than 15.
WvW has less then 20 people all the time.
I have guest in some of the lower tier server, same thing there.
If you don’t believe me, you can guest in the lower tier server.

I am still new to WvW and Guild Wars 2 in general. I am a part of a small (relatively new) WvW guild, and this new mechanic greatly favors out tactics and play-style.

I agree with a lot of points from both sides of this argument, but when it comes down to it WvW is a numbers game. If your server is under-populated it will be frustrating, and over-populated will be boring.

I think the mechanic should stay, and if the population is such an issue, I reiterate some other posts that mentioned possible server merging (as well as other solutions).

This screen describes how bloodlust looks in practise

Question for those defending the buff and saying its not that big a difference. Do you eat food?

Now on my server, commanders even call out every so often to remind people to eat. One single bit of food is important enough for the commanders to remind people to eat it. (I’ll even give you 2 because of oil and stones).

The bloodlust buff when all three are held is approximantely the equivalent of 3 level 80 foods plus 2 level 55 foods. (The bloodlust buff is actually slightly higher than that but its close).

So essentially, the bloodlust buff allows the winning server to eat 4 level 80 foods and 2 level 55 foods.

This week we’re winning, we’ve got the better coverage and are able to hold the buffs most of the time… Last week we were losing and SOS held the buffs.
Both weeks have been boring as hell.
When I’m buffed, I don’t enjoy my wins and when my enemy is buffed it feels like they didn’t deserve it.
If I were playing this game to get shiny things, I’d play PvE and if I wanted even fights I’d play PvP.
The joy I get out of wvwvw is winning while outnumbered because of better strategy / communication / skill. Buttlust ruins that by giving more power to the stronger server.

My server got the buff and i have no interest in killing opponents while they have a disadvantage.

How about a compromise?

Remove the offensive part of the buff, toughness and vitality only. Let’s be honest with 3500+ power the undermanned side is just melting.

Take away stat buffs entirely. There can be no compromise on this part.

Sovereign.1093:

Take away stat buffs entirely. There can be no compromise on this part.

Agreed.

katniss.6735:

Google doesn’t lie…

I get the same thing for WoW…so, yeah. Take it how you want.

In other news, our server had Bloodlust for a very long time, and we still lost pitifully.

Therefore, the buff can be overcome.

Probably

Perhaps they just need to balance the buff a bit in order to make things enticing but not worthless.

But isn’t Bloodlust any easier at all than getting the Orb of Power? All one needs is a small group of 3-5 people or so to take Bloodlust from my experience. Stealing an Orb was a fairly large undertaking built for medium to large zergs.

This way, one could strategically divide some people up in either EB or one of the Borderlands and go take Bloodlust without a massive reduction in the army as (opposed to focusing the brunt of one’s force on taking an Orb). Therefore, I truly think their intention of supporting smaller groups in WvW worked out to a certain extent, and to this end, was successful.

Maybe it doesn’t work out as well as some players believe, but I don’t think anyone should give up on it yet. After all, basically it’s just a reworked version of the Orbs of Power.

Many people thought that the idea for the Orbs was discarded for good, but here it is again, in a different form. And if Bloodlust ends up being discarded as well, I’d be willing to bet that the same concept will make a comeback in some way or another.

Millions of people left WoW when other big name MMOs came out. It’s not like it can’t happen here. Not sure why you’d make that argument. I’m not advocating that it’ll happen here; I actually want WvW to continue to build on the things people really enjoy about this game of large scale warfare. Only don’t take things away from the community as a result, and throw massive buffs around that tip the scales so much. The devs need to retract some things as failed experiments from time to time.

katniss.6735:

Millions of people left WoW when other big name MMOs came out. It’s not like it can’t happen here. Not sure why you’d make that argument. I’m not advocating that it’ll happen here; I actually want WvW to continue to build on the things people really enjoy about this game of large scale warfare. Only don’t take things away from the community as a result, and throw massive buffs around that tip the scales so much. The devs need to retract some things as failed experiments from time to time.

I was just demonstrating how Google instant results don’t prove anything. It seems that most online games get these results when typing “[Game] is…”

I got the same thing for Final Fantasy XIV and it just came out…There’s also similar results for Rift, SWTOR, EVE, LOTRO, Tera, Allods, Runes of Magic, Darkfall, etc. Stick ‘a’ in there and things get even more interesting.

If we take Google’s word for it, everything seems to be dead, dying, terrible, horrible, free, easy, hard, pay-to-win, and boring. I think Google is just the world’s biggest pessimist (makes sense when someone thinks about where it gets these results).

Anyway, I only chose WoW because it’s the game most people easily relate to (in terms of MMOs). The quote was really just a quip to counter your quip. It was never my intention to make any argument about WoW whatsoever.

Just wanted to add my “vote” to the discussion. Making the stronger team stronger yet is a horrible idea. I can’t even imagine why anyone with a background in game design could have imagined it would result in anything but imbalanced play.

I actually like the maps. More opportunities for meaningful open-field fighting is cool. But the heavy buff for the winning side just turns into an avalanche.

I like the idea of bloodlust but it isn’t working well.

The server with the biggest population will also get the bloodlust and just stomp even harder.

It’s been two weeks now so it would be great if we had some real statistics about bloodlust actually contributing to the further unbalancing of the server matches.

Did you really think they’re going to change it? The fact that they wanted to see a decrease in numbers is just another way of telling you they don’t care. They’ve spent money and/or time on getting this buff implemented, so they won’t change it. We will never be able to REALLY see a huge decrease in numbers which makes it out of control for us. Nothing we can do about it.