Guild Wars 2

BlaqueFyre.5678:

If a Thief Resets so do you, and if a Thief does run far enough away that you aren’t a threat they will have to Burn Initiative and CDs to re-engage, especially if you decide to it just stand in the one spot waiting for them to return.

The thing with power builds in a fight is it’s all about timing and landing bursts. The fact you can virtually win the fight 3 times but never force the encounter because the DD can disengage @ 10% health or so to heal back to full and try again is the main source of frustration from the OP perspective i would imagine.

But as soon as you make a mistake and you eat some burst the role is reversed, and unless you are a DD yourself you have no counter. This could be the fourth or fifth attempt by the DD in question.

jacksmith.6028:

The game isn’t designed for roaming – it’s designed for large scale battles.

This right here, WvW is the large scale format, PvP is the small group format. Anet do not care how classes perform in a microcosm in reference to WvW. You just need to look at the Acro line for DD’s, how much condi mesmers kitten or how over tuned zerkers are to see they give zero kittens about WvW balance when scaling down to 1-5ppl in a mode designed for large group conflict.

Chorazin.4107:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

If a Thief Resets so do you, and if a Thief does run far enough away that you aren’t a threat they will have to Burn Initiative and CDs to re-engage, especially if you decide to it just stand in the one spot waiting for them to return.

The thing with power builds in a fight is it’s all about timing and landing bursts. The fact you can virtually win the fight 3 times but never force the encounter because the DD can disengage @ 10% health or so to heal back to full and try again is the main source of frustration from the OP perspective i would imagine.

But as soon as you make a mistake and you eat some burst the role is reversed, and unless you are a DD yourself you have no counter. This could be the fourth or fifth attempt by the DD in question.

jacksmith.6028:

The game isn’t designed for roaming – it’s designed for large scale battles.

This right here, WvW is the large scale format, PvP is the small group format. Anet do not care how classes perform in a microcosm in reference to WvW. You just need to look at the Acro line for DD’s, how much condi mesmers kitten or how over tuned zerkers are to see they give zero kittens about WvW balance when scaling down to 1-5ppl in a mode designed for large group conflict.

Again if the Thief Resets so does the player they are resetting from, and if the Player isn’t a total potatoe they will start moving in a direction instead of standing in the same spot, they have a few options, and all of them will force the Thief to burn more resources to try and disengage to reset or to re-engage that same target, it’s really not that hard, but most players I have ran into root up in the same spot just like a potato waiting for people to re-engage.

Ansau.7326:

3. Thieves are designed this way.

There was no “design” as such at least in regard to WvW, thief (and everything else that is broken/imbalanced in WvW) weren’t designed for WvW, let alone roaming specifically, they were designed around PvP conquest.

And to take thief as the example in conquest, being able to reset fights is naturally balanced by the game mode, because there is a penalty to resetting a fight, the score continues to tick, your opponent gets the cap, decap, etc, so your opponent/opposing team gain something by a thief getting to the point where they have to withdraw.

In WvW on the other hand there is none of that (unless you are fighting over a camp or something), if I am on thief screw up or am outplayed by my opponent, instead of being punished for that as I should I can in most cases simply disengage if I want, it completely breaks a very basic rule of PvP design – risk vs reward.

And to be clear, before bad thieves QQ, the same applies to lesser extents to certain mesmer builds, certain druid build, etc, which is why thieves, mesmers, etc have always been very numerous when it comes to roaming, they are basically low risk and ez-mode.

Just one of the reasons this game is a joke for roaming and not worth the time for it.

Chorazin.4107:

This right here, WvW is the large scale format, PvP is the small group format. Anet do not care how classes perform in a microcosm in reference to WvW. You just need to look at the Acro line for DD’s, how much condi mesmers kitten or how over tuned zerkers are to see they give zero kittens about WvW balance when scaling down to 1-5ppl in a mode designed for large group conflict.

That’s not true.

The main difference between sPvP and WvW is pvp is an STRUCTURED game mode, while WvW is an OPEN WORLD pvp mode. It doesn’t have anything to do with how big or small the scale fight is.

SPvP aims to have an even footing, it is designed to achieve a fair matchup between teams of the same size. It is a game mode designed around 5 men teams where players have to be coordinated to win, because rotation is a key part of the game.

WvW doesn’t have any predefined rule, as an open world mode, of how battles need to happen. In fact, the reason why roaming and ZvZ exist is because of that, because the game doesn’t restrict one team from outnumbering the other. It is designed around worlds with very heterogeneous populations, in a game mode big enough where people don’t have to be coordinated to achieve the goals.

zinkz.7045:

There was no “design” as such at least in regard to WvW, thief (and everything else that is broken/imbalanced in WvW) weren’t designed for WvW, let alone roaming specifically, they were designed around PvP conquest.

And to take thief as the example in conquest, being able to reset fights is naturally balanced by the game mode, because there is a penalty to resetting a fight, the score continues to tick, your opponent gets the cap, decap, etc, so your opponent/opposing team gain something by a thief getting to the point where they have to withdraw.

In WvW on the other hand there is none of that (unless you are fighting over a camp or something), if I am on thief screw up or am outplayed by my opponent, instead of being punished for that as I should I can in most cases simply disengage if I want, it completely breaks a very basic rule of PvP design – risk vs reward.

And to be clear, before bad thieves QQ, the same applies to lesser extents to certain mesmer builds, certain druid build, etc, which is why thieves, mesmers, etc have always been very numerous when it comes to roaming, they are basically low risk and ez-mode.

Just one of the reasons this game is a joke for roaming and not worth the time for it.

Anet didn’t design professions around game modes. Anet created a defined playstyle for each profession. And these playstyles will suit better in some modes and lesser in others. That’s the essence of Gw2 profession design, and you have to accept it, otherwise I don’t know why are you playing it…

Thief is designed to have very high mobility, to be evasive and surprising, regardless of how the game mode is or how thief performs in it. This is the definition of thief: “They utilize stealth and shadowstepping to surprise and to get close to their target”. The fact that roaming is a game mode that strengthens the potential of thief doesn’t mean the design of the class is wrong. Because at the same time, thief is hard punished in game modes where resistance and group interactivity become more important, like zerguing.

And your last point is very narrowminded, because it only focuses on roaming while not taking into account other game modes. While you complain of how strong mesmer and thieves are at roaming, they also have the right to complain about how are they weak in zerguing, and how other professions are an ez win when bieng in a zerg, like guards or necros.

Basically, you don’t have a point because you fail to understand the fact that mesmer, thief, warrior, scrapper or druid designs are inherently better suit for roaming, but at the same time they are weaker in zerguing.
We can make the comparison that roaming with a necro, ele or a dh is the same as zerguing with a thief, mesmer or warrior. You will have a harder time because you’re using a profession that doesn’t excel at what you’re playing.

Chorazin.4107:

Balance on the small scale in WvW is poor at best, broken at worst. Anet do not care, Zerkers, DD, condi chronos are probably the worst offenders.

I think the Dire/Trailblazers stat combos are the top offenders right now, and have been for quite some time. Without those stats, the DD and Condi Chrono’s seem much less OP in small scale.

FirstInfantry.2795:

Recently came back to the game, met some new friends who started and started a new guild.
There is no structured group composition in this guild right now, the aim of the guild is to run about 5 people.
At the moment we are average 2-5 people depending on the timezone.

However for the past 3 weeks since coming back I have not been having fun when roaming in WvW. I will simply outline the reasons why I think Roaming in WvW is a piece of (insert the word you like).

1. Condi pressure: It feels like there is no variety in the fights when it comes to roaming, it is a constant cycle of condition based thieves, and condition based mesmers. Admittedly, there are occasional Power Warriors.

When fighting in small scale group fights (5 or less), it is a constant cycle of condition based classes and condition based group compositions, notably epidemic spam from necromancers.

As a new guild with players still learning the game as well, this is not very fun to fight, we literally walk up to find a fight of relatively even numbers and the whole group is suddenly dumbfounded with conditions which we do not have enough cleanses for. This continues to be the case even when running a shout guardian with trooper runes.

2. Blast finishers do not benefit roaming: There are not enough beneficial skills that also happen to be blast finishers for roaming builds, as such we cannot take advantage of the light field blast finisher combo.

3. Thieves have way too much mobility, when they have low health they are able to run all the way till they are out of combat and then run all the way back in the fight when many of us still have cooldowns, this just seems unfair.

They are possible to kill with conditions but it is a nightmare to deal with when running power builds for many classes.

4. Warriors have way too much everything, its not like they are impossible to kill but after cycling through their high burst, defensive stances and crowd control, then they finally start running as if they Usain Bolt.

5. Mesmers and Usain Bolt Comparision: Speaking of which mesmers have the same thing combine blink with continuum split and they become Usain Bolt.

6. Druids also play like Thieves: I feel like there is way too much stealth on a class that already has access to range and mobility.

These encounters become problematic, because they become irritating to deal with especially when trying to develop a new roaming guild for a server that constantly has to deal with being outnumbered by higher tier servers. It is hard to keep players motivated when you get into a fight and its not even fun, hell sometimes the fight either does not last 10seconds due to the amount of conditions or it lasts like 10minutes due to the amount of mobility and stealth.

Yes there is always the option of ignoring those players but as soon as the opponent notices a new or inexperienced player in the guild they relentlessly chase after that player forcing them into combat. It is very stressful exhaustive and quite frankly not very fun to play. It actually makes me want to zerg or quit playing instead.

The ‘skills’ we were given for cleanses weren’t meant for the amout of conditions that were buffed per toon.

Ergo, there is no help for many groups who find that they are dead in less than half a second without a single way to mitigate anything into a fair fight even with even numbers or better.

It’s unfair for the cleanses to be half or less than what the buffs were raised TO.

There is no ‘balance’ in WvW where pets are half health of pve, created conditions outstrip all skills that mitigate, and the phrase ‘play your way’ is a long past joke of a promise that someone forgot. long ago.

Ansau.7326:

Anet didn’t design professions around game modes. Anet created a defined playstyle for each profession. And these playstyles will suit better in some modes and lesser in others. That’s the essence of Gw2 profession design, and you have to accept it, otherwise I don’t know why are you playing it…

Thief is designed to have very high mobility, to be evasive and surprising, regardless of how the game mode is or how thief performs in it. This is the definition of thief: “They utilize stealth and shadowstepping to surprise and to get close to their target”. The fact that roaming is a game mode that strengthens the potential of thief doesn’t mean the design of the class is wrong. Because at the same time, thief is hard punished in game modes where resistance and group interactivity become more important, like zerguing.

And your last point is very narrowminded, because it only focuses on roaming while not taking into account other game modes. While you complain of how strong mesmer and thieves are at roaming, they also have the right to complain about how are they weak in zerguing, and how other professions are an ez win when bieng in a zerg, like guards or necros.

Basically, you don’t have a point because you fail to understand the fact that mesmer, thief, warrior, scrapper or druid designs are inherently better suit for roaming, but at the same time they are weaker in zerguing.
We can make the comparison that roaming with a necro, ele or a dh is the same as zerguing with a thief, mesmer or warrior. You will have a harder time because you’re using a profession that doesn’t excel at what you’re playing.

You are talking nonsense.

The classes in terms of combat were designed around PvP, go ask someone who was in Alpha, it was all about what Teldo & Co thought, PvE/WvW was virtually ignored in that regard because the original vision of the game was PvP was the serious bit, while PvE & WvW were casual.

Which is why for the entirety of the game WvW class balance in all aspects from blobs to roaming as been non-existent and why for 3 years PvE class balance was only marginally less useless than WvW, until HoT and they focused on PvE raids and started to balance for that (WvW still basically got virtually no balance consideration other than the odd rare scrap), it is also why back at launch when they did balance discussions on Twitch after patches (which you clearly never watched) the changes were 90-100% in relation to PvP, because that is what the game was balanced around back then.

As for this nonsense about roaming vs zerging, thief for example being broken in regard to risk vs reward when roaming is not “balanced” by being crappy as a zerg class, both aspects are simply the result of the game being designed around a point capture mode and 5 years of WvW largely being ignored when it comes to balance. (I’d also add that for a good while in this game thief was wanted in focus parties for guild raids, mesmer is still wanted, albeit in small numbers, haven’t fared any worse in zergs than rangers or engies, yet have generally, bar pre-nerf druid been better roamers, meanwhile warrior is a pretty decent zerg class and at times has also been broken OP at roaming)

And yes I agree guards and necros are broken when it comes to zergs, but again that isn’t balance, that again is simply the result of a game mode barely being considered when it comes to class/combat design and balance, time to wake up and smell the coffee.

babazhook.6805:

… Roaming counts…

I’m with TC this link, I assure you ill be on a power necro most likely if you should happen to smoke me out in the ether.

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Again if the Thief Resets so does the player they are resetting from, and if the Player isn’t a total potatoe they will start moving in a direction instead of standing in the same spot, they have a few options, and all of them will force the Thief to burn more resources to try and disengage to reset or to re-engage that same target, it’s really not that hard, but most players I have ran into root up in the same spot just like a potato waiting for people to re-engage.

Health resets. Cooldowns do not. If Anet’s #1 objective was to specifically design a class that caters to the toxic/trollish demographics, they couldn’t have done a much better job.

Raolin Soulherder.3195:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Again if the Thief Resets so does the player they are resetting from, and if the Player isn’t a total potatoe they will start moving in a direction instead of standing in the same spot, they have a few options, and all of them will force the Thief to burn more resources to try and disengage to reset or to re-engage that same target, it’s really not that hard, but most players I have ran into root up in the same spot just like a potato waiting for people to re-engage.

Health resets. Cooldowns do not. If Anet’s #1 objective was to specifically design a class that caters to the toxic/trollish demographics, they couldn’t have done a much better job.

Again Thieves have CDs and Weapon CDs in the form of Initiative…….. For the reset capability the thief has to use the finite resource of Initiative. And one last time if the defending player just stands there and doesn’t do anything to get away or pursue the Thief then they deserve to die because either action will force the Thief to use that very finite resource…

If people can’t understand that very basic concept there is no help available and they need to l2p

Toll Booth Willie.6723:

babazhook.6805:

… Roaming counts…

I’m with TC this link, I assure you ill be on a power necro most likely if you should happen to smoke me out in the ether.

I have not seen one yet this go around, but they can be nasty things as well more then capable of taking out people wearing dire armor.

Raolin Soulherder.3195:

BlaqueFyre.5678:

Again if the Thief Resets so does the player they are resetting from, and if the Player isn’t a total potatoe they will start moving in a direction instead of standing in the same spot, they have a few options, and all of them will force the Thief to burn more resources to try and disengage to reset or to re-engage that same target, it’s really not that hard, but most players I have ran into root up in the same spot just like a potato waiting for people to re-engage.

Health resets. Cooldowns do not. If Anet’s #1 objective was to specifically design a class that caters to the toxic/trollish demographics, they couldn’t have done a much better job.

Health resets, initiative does not. If a thief breaks off for 5 seconds all of the persons cooldowns he faced are now 5 seconds closer to being used again. The thief will regain 5 initiative which can be burned off with one skill meaning those other 8 skills on either weapon set unavailable.

Unlike other classes with cooldowns, If a warriors shield comes off cooldown using it does not impact the ability to use other upcoming skills coming off cooldown.If a thief uses 5 or 6 ini for a skill just as the ini become available, all of his other weapon skills outside the AA are that much farther away.

As such BY DESIGN the thief is a hit and run class, dashing in for bursts and retreating to recover INI. It works the same in WvW as it does PvP.

zinkz.7045:

You are talking nonsense.

The classes in terms of combat were designed around PvP, go ask someone who was in Alpha, it was all about what Teldo & Co thought, PvE/WvW was virtually ignored in that regard because the original vision of the game was PvP was the serious bit, while PvE & WvW were casual.

Which is why for the entirety of the game WvW class balance in all aspects from blobs to roaming as been non-existent and why for 3 years PvE class balance was only marginally less useless than WvW, until HoT and they focused on PvE raids and started to balance for that (WvW still basically got virtually no balance consideration other than the odd rare scrap), it is also why back at launch when they did balance discussions on Twitch after patches (which you clearly never watched) the changes were 90-100% in relation to PvP, because that is what the game was balanced around back then.

As for this nonsense about roaming vs zerging, thief for example being broken in regard to risk vs reward when roaming is not “balanced” by being crappy as a zerg class, both aspects are simply the result of the game being designed around a point capture mode and 5 years of WvW largely being ignored when it comes to balance. (I’d also add that for a good while in this game thief was wanted in focus parties for guild raids, mesmer is still wanted, albeit in small numbers, haven’t fared any worse in zergs than rangers or engies, yet have generally, bar pre-nerf druid been better roamers, meanwhile warrior is a pretty decent zerg class and at times has also been broken OP at roaming)

And yes I agree guards and necros are broken when it comes to zergs, but again that isn’t balance, that again is simply the result of a game mode barely being considered when it comes to class/combat design and balance, time to wake up and smell the coffee.

Oh god, you still don’t get it…

It doesn’t matter if sPvP was the base game mode for balancing at the game release, thief would still be a high mobility class. Let me tell you in another way, if anet starts balancing WvW on its own, thief will still be a very high mobility class with lots of evasions that can reset fights. It doesn’t matter if design were around PvP or petting, thief was meant to be what it is, and when you put it in a big map with no terrain limitations, then of course it excels, because it is the supposed thing…

Then you still fail to see WvW isn’t meant to have a balance combat design. Because it is a hell of a task. The game mode has so much to control, so much unpredictability, so many variables to manage at the same time, trying to set a balanced meta is a naive task.
How could you balance zerguing and roaming at the same time? If you buff condis to make them relevant in zerguing you end up with broken roaming. You buff tankiness in roaming to fight the power creep and you end up with a disgusting unending bunker zerg style. You nerf mobility of thieves in roaming and they become irrelevant in this game mode, you give them support and only thief parties is all what you see in roaming. You nerf mesmer sustain and you end up with a useless profession in zerguing, you nerf their condi pressure and it becomes by far the weakest profession for damage.

It is true that WvW has never had dedicated balance besides the latest patch, but thinking it could have a balance of all professions in both roaming and zerguing is quite ridiculous.

Also you keep telling yourself anet would address low risk high reward builds if balancing WvW, and yet across all these years many powerful builds in PvP have been that, or you will tell me bunker guards for years, 100blade warrior, MM necro, turret engi, pew pew and spirit rangers or trap DH were good designed builds around balanced risk-reward…

Turk.5460:

Chorazin.4107:

Balance on the small scale in WvW is poor at best, broken at worst. Anet do not care, Zerkers, DD, condi chronos are probably the worst offenders.

I think the Dire/Trailblazers stat combos are the top offenders right now, and have been for quite some time. Without those stats, the DD and Condi Chrono’s seem much less OP in small scale.

I’d not bet. Dire are the best suit for playing with scepter but with sword , imho , carrion is better.
Sword is a power based weapon and with dire, for me , it lacks a lot of damage . ( the meta in spvp is now sage but it was carrion … so power, vitality ,condition damage ) .
Scepter dire is a really strong and conservative setup but if you delete dire , many players , like me will change to carrion .
I can ensure you that i play often carrion and it is really really strong ( someone plays viper too but it is harder imho for the lack of vitality ) . With carrion you have to pay bit more attention but mind wrack and sword skills hit hard so what you lose in one hand … you gain on the other . You can also mix rabid and carrion or settler …
And obviously if you remove Dire you have to remove soldier and VT amulets too , like it has been done in spvp.
It is not correct to have power builds based on toughness and vitality and to make them forbidden for condition based builds . You can balance it avoiding the combination of toughness and vitality on the same piece like in spvp but having 6 pieces of jewelery , armour and weapons i don’t think it works in wvw

babazhook.6805:

Unlike other classes with cooldowns, If a warriors shield comes off cooldown using it does not impact the ability to use other upcoming skills coming off cooldown.If a thief uses 5 or 6 ini for a skill just as the ini become available, all of his other weapon skills outside the AA are that much farther away.

Unfortunately it is the strongest AA in the game. Even if you remove all the damage from shadowshot, D/P is still strong.

As such BY DESIGN the thief is a hit and run class, dashing in for bursts and retreating to recover INI. It works the same in WvW as it does PvP.

Thief has no counters as thief is unkillable due to ridiculous mobility. That’s not design, that’s kitten.

I main thief and necro (both full marauder in WvW). If I want to roam around for 5 hours without dying once while still being able to kill 80% of the opponents I meet, I run thief. If I want to practice my skills (which means being punished for mistakes) I run power reaper.

zedapoc.1493:

WvW roaming is very much the epitome of “the school of hard knocks”.

Best thing you can do is join an experienced group and learn the ropes before going it alone like you have…vets in wvw can smell noobie blood like sharks.

Also, keep in mind that enemies can see your wvw rank and buffs/debuffs. Weak links can easily be identified and focused down. My friends and I regularly go into fights saying things like “silver invader Druid is terrible, blow him up first.”

Although most of what you say is true, rank, buffs and character appearance mean absolutely nothing.

A lot of the time, yes, you can tell who is going to be experienced and who isn’t judging by these factors alone. But a quote I live by is “always assume your opponent is a genius until proven an idiot.” I have met many players who were below Bronze rank that were extremely dangerous, most likely because they spent most of their time in PvP and wanted to try out WvW (or were on an alt account). I know of one Thief in particular in fact who is on FA that’s like, Champion rank, not even Bronze, and the guy is absurdly good. He knows his class inside and out and I regularly watch him kite groups of 10+ people around.

So although yes, you can usually tell someone is a noobie just by looking at them, don’t let appearances deceive you. I always approach an enemy expecting more players to join and expecting them to be more skilled than me no matter what their rank or how they look. I’m always ready to escape if I find I’m about to be overwhelmed by numbers and I’m always ready to learn something new if my opponent is impressively good.

You probably already know this but others in this thread might not. So it’s not necessarily directed at you.

Chorazin.4107:

This right here, WvW is the large scale format, PvP is the small group format. Anet do not care how classes perform in a microcosm in reference to WvW. You just need to look at the Acro line for DD’s, how much condi mesmers kitten or how over tuned zerkers are to see they give zero kittens about WvW balance when scaling down to 1-5ppl in a mode designed for large group conflict.

Which is why people need to accept that no matter how much they beg or plea or cry, perfect balance will never be achieved.

It’s something all of us want but not everyone understands that it doesn’t come without consequences. Changing one thing can drastically effect another and because of this, WvW has to have one definitive purpose, which is large scale combat, where professions and abilities are considered.

Players need to understand that small scale WvW does not always come down to who is the better player. Sometimes, in fact most of the time, it’s who is using the more effective build for the encounter. That may suck for those who don’t like to lose based on mechanics (I’m one of them) but we are all given the option to disengage, or to not engage at all, if we are too outmatched to win. Just like we are all given the option to design our own builds that can operate viably in various situations. I have for example created a build for my Engineer that works nicely no matter how I choose to play WvW and it has a fighting chance against the majority of builds that I encounter.

Players need to stop seeking to bring things in line and instead need to accept that roaming is a matter of rock, paper scissors. If you enjoy small scale, take the proper precautions to defend yourself against what you know you will find. I never design a build with out condition removal and I never design a build without either mobility or sustain. If my build cannot easily escape, it should be able to withstand heavy pressure to compensate.

Some players like to take the path of least resistance while others choose to swim up stream. You can play off meta builds and challenge yourself if you like, but accepting that they are suboptimal, and that you are putting yourself at a disadvantage, is the first step towards having a better time. Being defeated does not always mean you were outplayed but outplaying does not always mean you are smarter.

KrHome.1920:

babazhook.6805:

Unlike other classes with cooldowns, If a warriors shield comes off cooldown using it does not impact the ability to use other upcoming skills coming off cooldown.If a thief uses 5 or 6 ini for a skill just as the ini become available, all of his other weapon skills outside the AA are that much farther away.

Unfortunately it is the strongest AA in the game. Even if you remove all the damage from shadowshot, D/P is still strong.

As such BY DESIGN the thief is a hit and run class, dashing in for bursts and retreating to recover INI. It works the same in WvW as it does PvP.

Thief has no counters as thief is unkillable due to ridiculous mobility. That’s not design, that’s kitten.

I main thief and necro (both full marauder in WvW). If I want to roam around for 5 hours without dying once while still being able to kill 80% of the opponents I meet, I run thief. If I want to practice my skills (which means being punished for mistakes) I run power reaper.

Let me ask you this. If you kill 80 percent of the people you meet in WvW does this apply to those thieves you meet as well? If so your claim fails the logic test. You should face one and neither of you should ever die.

I can kill thiefs. I die on my thief. Granted if I wanted to I could just flee every battle that turns out bad but this akin to saying Ranger OP because they can run into a castle everytime they get in trouble.

Mobility IS what it is. One class has more of it just as other classes have more condition cleanses, or Blocks or Invulns or vitality or armor or reflects. That mobility will serve the roamer type well but it will not do a heck of a lot for you in a zerg fight in SMC. The fact remains that as a thief if I used up all my ini porting around with SB and try to enter a battle in the middle of a zerg using my higher AA , I am going to die pretty quick and just act as a rally for some other.

My personal annoyance with thieves is basilisk venom.

As a squishy engi (not running elixir gun), even if I see them coming, there’s nothing I can do. I see a thief at ~1200 range with venom up. My usual options would be: anticipate the steal and use Gear Shield for a 2-second block. (but this doesnt work because venom is unblockable and I’ll get interrupted and combo’d from 100-0. I can’t dodge steal because it’s a teleport and is almost instant. Also, I’m not even sure if that clears venom even if I did manage to dodge it. My only option is to pop sneak gyro and run away. That’s no fun.

It’s not really the mobility, it’s the mobility combined with an unblockable I win skill every 45 seconds. I’d just like to be able to counter that with skillful play rather than NEEDING to run a stun-break because there’s no way to avoid it.

Ansau.7326:

Oh god, you still don’t get it…

Irony…

babazhook.6805:

Raolin Soulherder.3195:

Health resets. Cooldowns do not. If Anet’s #1 objective was to specifically design a class that caters to the toxic/trollish demographics, they couldn’t have done a much better job.

Health resets, initiative does not. If a thief breaks off for 5 seconds all of the persons cooldowns he faced are now 5 seconds closer to being used again. The thief will regain 5 initiative which can be burned off with one skill meaning those other 8 skills on either weapon set unavailable.

That disadvantage is already countered by the thief’s advantage of being able to spam the same skill when they do have initiative, which other classes can’t do. Not to mention the strong AA, which holds up plenty well on its own.

there are moments in fights when one player has popped a long cd and the other hasn’t. a thief gets to decide if he wants to reset health or not depending on whether the cooldown “balance” of the fight is in his favor. then it’s like starting over the fight but with the opponent handicapped w/o the long-cd skill or skills. that option isn’t even on the table for others to decide if the thief were the one to fall on the unfavorable side of the cooldown balance.

It’s silly to deny the imbalance. I’d advise sticking to the argument that class balance wasn’t intended to begin with.

As for the damage mitigation comments, the thief already has extra dodges, evades, stealth, plus a blocking utility vs. the blocks/invulns of other classes.

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

I still want to see all those condition thieves people talk about. Last week we fought blackgate and I do not recall much in the way of condition thieves,

I’m fighting Blackgate this week and ran into three separate condi thieves yesterday while roaming in what was largely a deserted bl. In fact, BG is the most condi heavy server I’ve come across in a long time.

That said, I’d be surprised if condi thieves were even half of the total number of thieves on any server. They’re more common than they were a year ago, but power is much more common from what I’ve seen.

Been roaming this week against BG……I’d say 90% of the encounters are condi. From my understanding and experience, they greatly advocate for condi only builds.

Rambitshouse.8712:

Been roaming this week against BG……I’d say 90% of the encounters are condi. From my understanding and experience, they greatly advocate for condi only builds.

It’s definitely up there. Lots of condi reapers and mesmers (very few power), and then a mix of condi or power daredevils, berserkers, etc. Haven’t seen any condi scrappers or dragon hunters yet.

There’s a higher number of daredevils (maybe 70% power) and condi mesmers running around compared to most servers, and almost always at least one condi reaper in every fights.

Not sure if you’ve found this, but I usually find a lot of people showing up from all directions within 1 min of finding a fight. No doubt due to a map call out (even for a 1v1), but at least it helps identify what must people are running.

Rambitshouse.8712:

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

I still want to see all those condition thieves people talk about. Last week we fought blackgate and I do not recall much in the way of condition thieves,

I’m fighting Blackgate this week and ran into three separate condi thieves yesterday while roaming in what was largely a deserted bl. In fact, BG is the most condi heavy server I’ve come across in a long time.

That said, I’d be surprised if condi thieves were even half of the total number of thieves on any server. They’re more common than they were a year ago, but power is much more common from what I’ve seen.

Been roaming this week against BG……I’d say 90% of the encounters are condi. From my understanding and experience, they greatly advocate for condi only builds.

To be fair when we were up against BG , there was not a lot in the way of roaming that went on in comparative terms and I tended to play much later then usual. It very possible that when that majority of players on they trend towards condition builds . For that reason as I try and tally TC and Maguuma encounters, I will try and vary the hours i Play at but up to this point the majority of roamers are still power.

Raolin Soulherder.3195:

babazhook.6805:

Raolin Soulherder.3195:

Health resets. Cooldowns do not. If Anet’s #1 objective was to specifically design a class that caters to the toxic/trollish demographics, they couldn’t have done a much better job.

Health resets, initiative does not. If a thief breaks off for 5 seconds all of the persons cooldowns he faced are now 5 seconds closer to being used again. The thief will regain 5 initiative which can be burned off with one skill meaning those other 8 skills on either weapon set unavailable.

That disadvantage is already countered by the thief’s advantage of being able to spam the same skill when they do have initiative, which other classes can’t do. Not to mention the strong AA, which holds up plenty well on its own.

there are moments in fights when one player has popped a long cd and the other hasn’t. a thief gets to decide if he wants to reset health or not depending on whether the cooldown “balance” of the fight is in his favor. then it’s like starting over the fight but with the opponent handicapped w/o the long-cd skill or skills. that option isn’t even on the table for others to decide if the thief were the one to fall on the unfavorable side of the cooldown balance.

It’s silly to deny the imbalance. I’d advise sticking to the argument that class balance wasn’t intended to begin with.

As for the damage mitigation comments, the thief already has extra dodges, evades, stealth, plus a blocking utility vs. the blocks/invulns of other classes.

If a thief uses a skill twice in a row it precludes him using other skills. That can be every bit a disadvantage. His INI still has to reset in order to do that. If he uses a skill twice in a row, his ini takes that many more seconds to recharge.

If a thief ports away by using SB infiltrators twice then there is not a heck of a lot he can do for the next while. As to the higher AA I can guarentee you if a thief tried to use that higher AA up against a warrior , DH and the like toe to toe in an extended fight the thief will LOSE. They can do a few quick hits and get out which is exactly how they are designed.

If the warrior class changed so that it able to use a Hundred blades twice in a row but this shut down all of his other weapon skill access including his shield blocks his weapon stuns his weapon movement skills, it would not necessarily lead to an OP spec. It would lead to a different playstyle which is EXACTLY what the thief is. The fact that INI is a pool used for all skills is what balances the thief and the fact it has to break off because of its flimsy nature and need to regain that resource pool used for its skills is what was intended. Yeah the AA hits hard, but you can only get a few in before it time to go. a DH dropping one trap can do you in.

Games that allow different play styles rather then shoehorning all into one tend to be better games, Too many of these arguments fail to recognize those intended differences and are akin to complaining that water is not dry like sand. Well it is water and if it was just like sand it would be sand.

coro.3176:

My personal annoyance with thieves is basilisk venom.

As a squishy engi (not running elixir gun), even if I see them coming, there’s nothing I can do. I see a thief at ~1200 range with venom up. My usual options would be: anticipate the steal and use Gear Shield for a 2-second block. (but this doesnt work because venom is unblockable and I’ll get interrupted and combo’d from 100-0. I can’t dodge steal because it’s a teleport and is almost instant. Also, I’m not even sure if that clears venom even if I did manage to dodge it. My only option is to pop sneak gyro and run away. That’s no fun.

It’s not really the mobility, it’s the mobility combined with an unblockable I win skill every 45 seconds. I’d just like to be able to counter that with skillful play rather than NEEDING to run a stun-break because there’s no way to avoid it.

Other classes have stuns many of them lasting longer then 1.5 seconds. Other classs have unblockable attacks. How do you deal with those? If you do not want to use a stun break to deal with a stun it akin to complaining that one does not want to have to trait a condition cleanses to deal with conditions.

How do I deal with other stuns? I block. How do I deal with other unblockables? I dodge.

You can’t dodge or block Basilisk venom. When used with steal, it’s instant. Even if I happen to be dodging at the time and the steal is evaded, I’m pretty sure that doesn’t consume the venom. It’ll still apply on the next attack.. or the next one if I manage to dodge that too.

I think with the disengage conundrum people are getting confused. The argument seems to be you both disengage from the combat thus it’s balanced.

What people fail to realise is the aggressor doesn’t want to disengage. He has the Daredevil(DD) on the ropes through good play on his behalf/poor play on the DD’s behalf. He wants to push the advantage, but doing this if the DD chooses the out option is very difficult, and the fight literally cannot be forced on some classes.

The DD has an out that he can use to reset the combat. It’s not an equal advantage gain to both combatants if the DD heals from 15% health back to full whilst the opposing player goes from 80% to full out of combat. And this scenario happens three times before the DD lands his burst, gets the advantage and wins.

Yet when this role is reversed, the DD has someone down on 15% life through good play or that player has played poorly. Where is his out to reset? The player eats the loss because well, he played poorly and the DD played well. Druid running GS/Staff is probably another candidate, but they don’t have quite the same on demand access to stealth like the DD to help assist the disengage.

But both the shortbow spam from DD’s and the staff/GS kiting can also trigger a disengage.

This is why you find a lot of DD’s roaming, ignoring the Acro line for the time being. This ability to disengage from a fight in WvW is a great ace to have up your sleeve. You never know when the fight could go to 3-5v1 or a group will come rolling by and want to kill you.

I think this is where the OP frustration stems from.

coro.3176:

How do I deal with other stuns? I block. How do I deal with other unblockables? I dodge.

You can’t dodge or block Basilisk venom. When used with steal, it’s instant. Even if I happen to be dodging at the time and the steal is evaded, I’m pretty sure that doesn’t consume the venom. It’ll still apply on the next attack.. or the next one if I manage to dodge that too.

Why would you roam with zero stunbreaks? I’m sorry, but that’s just foolish. I take every stunbreak and condi cleanse available + condi reduction runes, traits, and food, and still think theres too much stun and condi spam. How can you roam with none and think things are going to turn out ok for you? The majority of roamers are condi and cc spammers. So roaming without every stunbreak and cleanse you can take is just asking to die.

I’m that good

Actually though, I run with no stun break because I like Rocket Boots (should be a stunbreak but isn’t) as my escape skill.

However, I believe in counterplay. Every attack ought to in theory have something you can do to avoid it or prevent its damage/cc. Unblockable attacks can be dodged. Melee can be kited. CC can be blocked. etc. I consider Basilisk Venom a broken mechanic because you just have to take the cc+damage. Yes, a stunbreak will save you from some of the burst (maybe half?) but you still have to take the interrupt & attack and there’s nothing you can do about it.

coro.3176:

I’m that good

Actually though, I run with no stun break because I like Rocket Boots (should be a stunbreak but isn’t) as my escape skill.

However, I believe in counterplay. Every attack ought to in theory have something you can do to avoid it or prevent its damage/cc. Unblockable attacks can be dodged. Melee can be kited. CC can be blocked. etc. I consider Basilisk Venom a broken mechanic because you just have to take the cc+damage. Yes, a stunbreak will save you from some of the burst (maybe half?) but you still have to take the interrupt & attack and there’s nothing you can do about it.

I’ve never really had a problem with basi venom. I’ve always thought it was pretty balanced as far as elites go. Headbutt on the other hand, that’s incredibly broken. Stuns for longer than basi venom, can crit even tanky people for 5k, and refills adrenaline to full, its a self stun also so it allows you to proc rousing resilience, and is only 20 seconds as opposed to basi venom that’s more than double the cd and isnt anywhere near as powerful.

And yeah, i like rocket boots too, but i always have elixir gun with me since the stunbreak and the cond cleanse from it is too good to pass up.

Choppy.4183:

Rambitshouse.8712:

Been roaming this week against BG……I’d say 90% of the encounters are condi. From my understanding and experience, they greatly advocate for condi only builds.

It’s definitely up there. Lots of condi reapers and mesmers (very few power), and then a mix of condi or power daredevils, berserkers, etc. Haven’t seen any condi scrappers or dragon hunters yet.

There’s a higher number of daredevils (maybe 70% power) and condi mesmers running around compared to most servers, and almost always at least one condi reaper in every fights.

Not sure if you’ve found this, but I usually find a lot of people showing up from all directions within 1 min of finding a fight. No doubt due to a map call out (even for a 1v1), but at least it helps identify what must people are running.

Same for most part, my feeling is that they may be bored looking for fights. Usually a 1v1 turns into a 1v3-5 and condition city happens. Barely can c-cleanse a condi mesmer enough, let alone multiple players.

coro.3176:

How do I deal with other stuns? I block. How do I deal with other unblockables? I dodge.

You can’t dodge or block Basilisk venom. When used with steal, it’s instant. Even if I happen to be dodging at the time and the steal is evaded, I’m pretty sure that doesn’t consume the venom. It’ll still apply on the next attack.. or the next one if I manage to dodge that too.

Well I would counter that given the sheer number of stuns and unblockables that are out there, if you can block and dodge every one that there too many blocks and dodges available to you and it a good thing at least ONE skill (on a 40 second cooldown) can get through the same.

I would suggest if a thief made the claim he could dodge or block every potential stun that comes his way there would be an uproar and a call to nerf.

babazhook.6805:

I would suggest if a thief made the claim he could dodge or block every potential stun that comes his way there would be an uproar and a call to nerf.

Can’t they already though? With Bandit’s Defense on a 15s CD, dodges on tap, evades on some weapon skills, shadow step, and then general disengage, I mean.

There aren’t really a lot of options for locking down a Daredevil who doesn’t want to be locked down, at least, not compared to an engineer (which is what he’s playing).

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

I would suggest if a thief made the claim he could dodge or block every potential stun that comes his way there would be an uproar and a call to nerf.

Can’t they already though? With Bandit’s Defense on a 15s CD, dodges on tap, evades on some weapon skills, shadow step, and then general disengage, I mean.

There aren’t really a lot of options for locking down a Daredevil who doesn’t want to be locked down, at least, not compared to an engineer (which is what he’s playing).

Nope they cant. They can certainly trait up lots of STUN BREAKS but the person posting did not want to take stun breaks.

If they could dodge every stun few would take BD or shadowstep or hard to catch. There not many thiefs that do not take stun breaks. Addd to that if one focused on just dodging the stuns, all the other stuff would get you (arc divider , shatters , your fellow thiefs vaults DH traps , Condi bombs and so on)

The condi crap is workable. You can stock up on cleanse and deal with most of the stupid, spammy condi builds. What gets me is they have to be so kitten tanky + great mobility too. Some of them can even heal up pretty good.

Pick 2…dmg/mobility/tank.

babazhook.6805:

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

I would suggest if a thief made the claim he could dodge or block every potential stun that comes his way there would be an uproar and a call to nerf.

Can’t they already though? With Bandit’s Defense on a 15s CD, dodges on tap, evades on some weapon skills, shadow step, and then general disengage, I mean.

There aren’t really a lot of options for locking down a Daredevil who doesn’t want to be locked down, at least, not compared to an engineer (which is what he’s playing).

Nope they cant. They can certainly trait up lots of STUN BREAKS but the person posting did not want to take stun breaks.

If they could dodge every stun few would take BD or shadowstep or hard to catch. There not many thiefs that do not take stun breaks. Addd to that if one focused on just dodging the stuns, all the other stuff would get you (arc divider , shatters , your fellow thiefs vaults DH traps , Condi bombs and so on)

Adding to this, sometimes you need to eat the CC’s to save your dodges for other skills. Eg. sometimes I’ll eat a Shield Bash if I have a stunbreak ready so I can dodge the follow up, instead of expending two dodges and leaving myself vulnerable. Honestly unless in a zerg fight (or you’re a Thief), you shouldn’t ever spend two dodges back to back anyway.

As for Thieves, it’s true that it’s pretty much impossible to lock a Thief down. But that’s why you either need to know how to bait them, or when to follow their example and run the opposite direction as soon as they disengage. A lot of the time, I won’t wait for or chase after a Thief as soon as they make a break for it. I’ll go hard the other direction and call it a draw or see if I can get lucky by pulling them in to a place that’s more advantageous to me.

I never claimed to be able to dodge or block every stun. I try, but I’m certainly not perfect. I also have other tools at my disposal, like blind, immobilize, cripple, etc.

My complaint about basilisk venom is that I can’t ever dodge it and can’t ever block it. If I eat a shield bash. That’s on me. I should have seen it and defended. If I see a thief at 1200 range with venom up, no amount of skilled play on my part will prevent that damage – not even a stun break. I’m still going to take the initial interrupt + first attack before I can react. You can’t say that about too many skills in the game.

coro.3176:

I never claimed to be able to dodge or block every stun. I try, but I’m certainly not perfect. I also have other tools at my disposal, like blind, immobilize, cripple, etc.

My complaint about basilisk venom is that I can’t ever dodge it and can’t ever block it. If I eat a shield bash. That’s on me. I should have seen it and defended. If I see a thief at 1200 range with venom up, no amount of skilled play on my part will prevent that damage – not even a stun break. I’m still going to take the initial interrupt + first attack before I can react. You can’t say that about too many skills in the game.

Is Basilisk Venom the only instant (by technicality, at least) stun in the game?

coro.3176:

I never claimed to be able to dodge or block every stun. I try, but I’m certainly not perfect. I also have other tools at my disposal, like blind, immobilize, cripple, etc.

My complaint about basilisk venom is that I can’t ever dodge it and can’t ever block it. If I eat a shield bash. That’s on me. I should have seen it and defended. If I see a thief at 1200 range with venom up, no amount of skilled play on my part will prevent that damage – not even a stun break. I’m still going to take the initial interrupt + first attack before I can react. You can’t say that about too many skills in the game.

Headbutt , just as example, has a 3 second stun , a 20 second cooldown and can hit for 10k in damage against squishies on its own. A followup attack not needed. I just do not see your issue.

babazhook.6805:

Headbutt , just as example, has a 3 second stun , a 20 second cooldown and can hit for 10k in damage against squishies on its own. A followup attack not needed. I just do not see your issue.

He’s already explained it. In the case of Headbutt, he can block, dodge, or blind it to mitigate. Basilisk doesn’t offer the same opportunity due to its unblockability combined with stealth and teleport mechanics, and that it isn’t consumed unless it hits. That’s his issue with it… the lack of avoidance options.

Choppy.4183:

babazhook.6805:

Headbutt , just as example, has a 3 second stun , a 20 second cooldown and can hit for 10k in damage against squishies on its own. A followup attack not needed. I just do not see your issue.

He’s already explained it. In the case of Headbutt, he can block, dodge, or blind it to mitigate. Basilisk doesn’t offer the same opportunity due to its unblockability combined with stealth and teleport mechanics, and that it isn’t consumed unless it hits. That’s his issue with it… the lack of avoidance options.

He seemed to contradict himself in his followup post where stated that even if he had a stunbreak he does not have time enough to use it before followup damage applied.

The fact is this. Even a thief with all of his dodges can not dodge all incoming stuns.

It is not like a thief does not get hit by other thiefs using Basilisk. I assure you that I get hit on my squishy thief by basilisks and stunbreaks save me. . That said to the engie, while I do not play the class that much they do have a whole lot of passives that can kick in. Just as example would Autodefense bomb dispenser not blind said thief when the engineer stunned and mitigate at least part of that damage?

I would point out that this same skill would not do a heck of a lot against the damage from a headbutt as it already applied.

Choppy sums it up well there, but if I must get all technical..

Stunbreak vs Basilisk venom

• does not prevent the initial damage and interrupt
• average human reaction time is 250ms. Average ping is 100ms. Thief dagger attacks take 250ms (1/4s). Realistically, a Thief is getting in 1-2 attacks before a good player can react with their stunbreak.

Including backstab, that’s still a lot of damage. It’s enough that you’re probably dead if you happen to be in the middle of a fight and not at full health – even if you see the thief coming and have all your defenses up. That is my complaint.

WTB counterplay.

• Actually, I sould clarify. WTB skillful counterplay.

I’d personally rather deal with basi venom than headbutt. I dont know how that skill even made it past testing. 20 sec cooldown and its broken beyond belief. stuns you for more than twice as long as basi, half the cooldown, can hit for more damage by itself than backstab can and sets you up for a followup burst. And if the warrior has rousing resilience and outrage, heals them for 2000ish and gives 1000 extra toughness, so good luck counterattacking them. Pumps their adrenaline to full allowing them to hit you with an instant arc divider for another 10k+. You tell me, which of the 2 of those skills sounds more broken?

personally id rather deal with the thief who stuns me for a second and does maybe 8k to me if he’s glassy and be able to turn around and delete him in a second with my own burst than the warrior who can hit you every 20 seconds with a ridiculous burst dealing twice as much damage as the thief while facetanking and passively healing any damage you do to him.

coro.3176:

Choppy sums it up well there, but if I must get all technical..

Stunbreak vs Basilisk venom

• does not prevent the initial damage and interrupt
• average human reaction time is 250ms. Average ping is 100ms. Thief dagger attacks take 250ms (1/4s). Realistically, a Thief is getting in 1-2 attacks before a good player can react with their stunbreak.

Including backstab, that’s still a lot of damage. It’s enough that you’re probably dead if you happen to be in the middle of a fight and not at full health – even if you see the thief coming and have all your defenses up. That is my complaint.

WTB counterplay.

• Actually, I sould clarify. WTB skillful counterplay.

When a person has to react at close range to a headbutt you do not have any more time then reacting with a stunbreak after a basi. One more time how do you manage to avoid headbutt? You claim you can block or dodge said hheadbutt. How is it you have the time to do this but have no time to do a stunbreak after a basi?

Again a thief gets hit by Basi and I am able to react with a stunbreak (you do not mitigate all the damge but do mitigate a great chunk) and trust me I would rather get hit by Basi then headbutt. Headbutt generally does me in given even If I stun break I have lost more then half my health and the guy that just headbutt me has likley just held for over 2k and can be running 4K+ armor for the next while and yes it can be made unblockable as well.

Well, let’s at least agree that it’s not as though both can’t be nerfed. I main warrior and yet fully support an increased CD and decreased damage on Headbutt.

The issues coro is raising about Basilisk Venom are independent of Headbutt.

It’s true. I tend to agree that Warrior has access to a lot of must-dodge-or-else-you-are-dead stuns, especially given its access to resistance and stability. However, I still think they are in principle dodgeable.

Headbutt is a 300-range attack, so I try to keep Warriors at least 300 units away and am ready to dodge or block if they’re inside that range. Here’s a video with a few examples.

https://youtu.be/TobRShd-5as

The first one sort of illustrates my point. I’m fighting with the warrior, dodging stuns, trying to keep them at range, then I instantly get stunned by a teleporting thief&mes – not sure if venom was up there, but you get the idea.

The second one is me fighting a guild-mate. I’m kiting for 30s+ until his resistance wears off. I can’t dodge his last stun because of bad play on my part. I waste a dodge to get out of his axes, then don’t have enough endurance when I need it. I should have used a toolbelt skill to get some vigor which would have given me enough to evade his last attack. – but again, my point is that I could have played differently and I could have won. When I get insta-stunned from a teleport, there’s not much counterplay.

coro.3176:

It’s true. I tend to agree that Warrior has access to a lot of must-dodge-or-else-you-are-dead stuns, especially given its access to resistance and stability. However, I still think they are in principle dodgeable.

Headbutt is a 300-range attack, so I try to keep Warriors at least 300 units away and am ready to dodge or block if they’re inside that range. Here’s a video with a few examples.

https://youtu.be/TobRShd-5as

The first one sort of illustrates my point. I’m fighting with the warrior, dodging stuns, trying to keep them at range, then I instantly get stunned by a teleporting thief&mes – not sure if venom was up there, but you get the idea.

The second one is me fighting a guild-mate. I’m kiting for 30s+ until his resistance wears off. I can’t dodge his last stun because of bad play on my part. I waste a dodge to get out of his axes, then don’t have enough endurance when I need it. I should have used a toolbelt skill to get some vigor which would have given me enough to evade his last attack. – but again, my point is that I could have played differently and I could have won. When I get insta-stunned from a teleport, there’s not much counterplay.

In the video it really hard to tell all that goes on but that warrior does as much damage if not more after the stun. It appears the thief in question immobed you so added to the stun you were immobbed so the thief looks like he was using s/d. I must admit it hard to tell. I do see you going gray for a brief time so the stun is likely from basi. You should not expect to survive such on player you indicated was squishy as you outnumbered by two power players. The mesmer that kicks in there seems to be power mesmer with GS , so it a bad example at the end of the day when trying to suggest Basi is OP.

If it was a single thief with basi and you stun broke right away you could probably mitigate at least half the damage (it should not take 1.5 seconds to react to a stun , which is the stun duration and his own followup attacks while fast DO take time and it appears he was on sword which is “slower” then dagger.).

Oh, I 100% did not expect to survive getting jumped by 2 more players. That was just a video I had that illustrates the difference between an avoidable CC and a non-avoidable one.

.. but suppose I had seen them coming and used my 2-second block in anticipation of the steal-burst combo. That should work, right? That’s just good play by expecting an attack and using my defense. Instead, unblockable instant cc.

Warriors can build tanky as hell along with going mace sheild/gs. Met a warrior last night who was probably 3k armour in marurder gear mace sheild durabilty runes. I was s/d thief at the time and my aa’s critting at 1500 dmg and non crits were 740 per hit. He can regeneration that just by afking. Ofc after a few stance rotations I admitted defeat, went out of combat and went d/p and even that took a bit more time then it should.

This is the stats I was using – http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vZAQJAsYl0MhSnY5TwwJw/ELwEmXa4M0Gm7gnwWoWCIAsbA-TlSBQBJUtCsoMgI7PkRlY5TPQXUa8gHAwiUCSJVVAwJA4dwBwW1KAO7szO7szaAt26szOrUACq1C-w