Guild Wars 2

What’s getting old and tired is the endless complaints of entitlement and laziness. Keeps don’t flip often, we all know this. No amount of individual effort can suffice. More so, to grab a keep usually requires a near to full queue. Locking out anyone else whom may need it.

For Green being the easiest to defend, in my point of view this isn’t accurate. It’s the people in the Green zone that gives it this illusion. They are the first place world. If anything, with the capacity to treb Stone Mist from Overlook, this gives Red a distinct advantage. No other zones can attack SM from a keep. Pangloss is also a highly defensible camp on the map too. I think the developers did a good job of making the zones balanced and a slight edge to the 3rd place world.

Winning and losing we’re all on the same boat. My server has been red for 3 weeks now and before then we were blue, the 2 vistas and 1 poi are on the green side on EB in their keep. It takes a full collaborative force to take that. I don’t wait around for the colors to change, I get in there and help when I can, but I’m not a commander so I don’t have the pull to try and take their keep. I do hope anet follows through with this because I don’t want to pay to transfer and I won’t pay to transfer. I don’t expect map completion to be easy, but I do expect that I have the opportunity to get it on my character. I worked too hard not to have that chance. And as it stands I don’t, not without chucking out money for server transfer.

Easiest way I could see to alleviate this is a non-PvP setup for the 3 borderlands and the EB, but a completely different ‘map’ for them all. And by that, I mean you can run around and do the events, and even do the JPs and map completion, all areas unlocked (but none of it giving badges or siege blueprints). I mean if the Mists can give birth to all this there has to be a reality inside the mists where all 3 servers are NOT fighting each other. Pipe dream I know…

If it’s just about finishing your legendary, transfer servers.

I hear “I only need that vista/poi for my legendary, I have everything else!” a LOT.

How much did you pay for all that other stuff? Precursor, lodestones, t6 mats, etc.

How much would it cost to transfer? (and would you even need to transfer back? seeing as guesting can allow you PvE access and if you’re making this complaint in the first place you probably don’t like WvW, so who cares what server is technically your home?)

Have you made a thread on the forums yet to complain how it’s unfair that PvE players can make a ton more gold (progress toward their legendary, that is, since gold=grind=legend somehow) by facerolling a 5 minute dungeon over and over than players who dedicate their time to taking and holding WvW objectives (that, you know, benefit those PvE players also…. what do your CoF p1 speed runs benefit my WvW experience again? right, they don’t, so why should I care if you have to pay a few of those easily earned gold to transfer temporarily? right, I shouldn’t, and don’t).

I wouldn’t mind some random rotation to the colors, that’s not what I’m saying. I’m just pointing out some pretty big discrepancies. People will throw more gold into the mystic toilet hoping for RNG to look favorably on their prayers for a precursor/clovers than it would take to transfer to a server where they could be sure of getting their map completion.

Ilesyt.7084:

World Completion is such a pest , why do I have to PvE so much just to get that kitten legendary

Totally agree! Btw, how is RoS doing up in the higher tiers? Been a while since we’ve played against you guys. We used to always be paired up together down in the bottom tier. I remember fighting you a good amount of times

Making the colors random would make Eternal Battlegrounds a lot more fun, as certain sides of that map are more vulnerable than others.

DeWolfe.2174:

I think the developers did a good job of making the zones balanced and a slight edge to the 3rd place world.

I agree. The map is very balanced, but I still say the slight edge goes to the green world. Red has pang, the easiest camp to defend, but it also has speldan, the hardest camp to defend. Red can Treb SM, but it can also be trebled by sm, which is a major headache to the weakest server who most lack the means nessecary to counter the sm Trebs.

Green is the strongest in EB because all 4 of its towers can be defended from LLK by the mortars. Blue only has a trio of Brav-VK-Lang, and red only has a trio of OW-OL-Veloka. And to make red even worse, OW can be easily taken from orgath or sm via Trebs, and there is practically no way to counter it, making Red’s trio highly vulnerable. I don’t even meed to mention Anz or mendons. Blue is weak because Durios and QL are every SM-owner’s favorite Treb spot, plus it has the mess of ruins right in the middle of the area making it easy for attackers to hide, and easy for defenders to get lost around their keep >.>

But green….

4 towers and a keep all tightly packed where they can all defend eachother, 2 supply camps that are extremely easy to kite around enemy zergs until your zerg gets there… Green is without a doubt the strongest position.

While randomising colours is a good idea, I feel people are missing the main issue, which is... why is there PvE elements in WvW.. when it is to all intents and purposes nothing to do with PvE.

MrChandMan.8253:

DeWolfe.2174:

I think the developers did a good job of making the zones balanced and a slight edge to the 3rd place world.

I agree. The map is very balanced, but I still say the slight edge goes to the green world. Red has pang, the easiest camp to defend, but it also has speldan, the hardest camp to defend. Red can Treb SM, but it can also be trebled by sm, which is a major headache to the weakest server who most lack the means nessecary to counter the sm Trebs.

Green is the strongest in EB because all 4 of its towers can be defended from LLK by the mortars. Blue only has a trio of Brav-VK-Lang, and red only has a trio of OW-OL-Veloka. And to make red even worse, OW can be easily taken from orgath or sm via Trebs, and there is practically no way to counter it, making Red’s trio highly vulnerable. I don’t even meed to mention Anz or mendons. Blue is weak because Durios and QL are every SM-owner’s favorite Treb spot, plus it has the mess of ruins right in the middle of the area making it easy for attackers to hide, and easy for defenders to get lost around their keep >.>

But green….

4 towers and a keep all tightly packed where they can all defend eachother, 2 supply camps that are extremely easy to kite around enemy zergs until your zerg gets there… Green is without a doubt the strongest position.

I just want to say that this post is hilarious to read aloud. Particularly the second paragraph.

I think my favorite part is “OW-OL-Veloka.”

Lelith.2916:

While randomising colours is a good idea, I feel people are missing the main issue, which is… why is there PvE elements in WvW.. when it is to all intents and purposes nothing to do with PvE.

I would love the change. I thought with the free transfers ‘blue’ would actually be able to get some of poi/vistas that have been owned since forever by the others.

And yes remove pve world completion requirements from wvw maps and I likely wouldn’t care as much.

You don’t need to randomize the colors, since they denote ranking, but just which spawn you get.

If you always win,….then just go take whatever map points you need and be done.

I still think that the server with the lowest rating in the bracket should have the Red side of EB with the strong overlook keep.

It is funny though when there is a colour change after being one colour for so long. Just today, while we on FA (Red) were hitting Hills on TCBL (Now Green), I saw a Kaineng try to run into the door portal to a keep that was not theirs, I assume that the particular individual thought they were still in green. Hilarious.

Basedgod.7328:

I still think that the server with the lowest rating in the bracket should have the Red side of EB with the strong overlook keep.

It is funny though when there is a colour change after being one colour for so long. Just today, while we on FA (Red) were hitting Hills on TCBL (Now Green), I saw a Kaineng try to run into the door portal to a keep that was not theirs, I assume that the particular individual thought they were still in green. Hilarious.

First and foremost thank you Based God, but yeah I’ve done it. AR was blue for months, we went green and I was so thrown off I was going into the wrong portals and not realizing towers were mine, not gonna lie.

Basedgod.7328:

I still think that the server with the lowest rating in the bracket should have the Red side of EB with the strong overlook keep.

It is funny though when there is a colour change after being one colour for so long. Just today, while we on FA (Red) were hitting Hills on TCBL (Now Green), I saw a Kaineng try to run into the door portal to a keep that was not theirs, I assume that the particular individual thought they were still in green. Hilarious.

Lol I don’t even want to say how many times I’ve tried to kill my own sentries when the colors change >.>

DevonCarver.5370:

To be clear, assuming we make this change, it would have basically 0% to do with world completion.

<3 this answer^ – ^.

DeWolfe.2174:

anything, with the capacity to treb Stone Mist from Overlook, this gives Red a distinct advantage. No other zones can attack SM from a keep. Pangloss is also a highly defensible camp on the map too. I think the developers did a good job of making the zones balanced and a slight edge to the 3rd place world.

Sorry but you missed a few glaring weaknesses. Overlook is also the only keep that can be trebbed from SM, effectively making the outer wall negligent and the WP pointless.
As for any argument about pangloss, the same can be said for Rogues in the green corner. It too has two highly defensible entrances.
Red is further disadvantaged when it comes to speldan, not only is it far from home making it the most difficult to defend, its yaks have the furthest distance to travel making it the easiest to pick off.
Anz pass is also further from the keep then any green tower and also is very hard to defend when you don’t hold SM.

Tetra Bug.7134:

Basedgod.7328:

It is funny though when there is a colour change after being one colour for so long.

First and foremost thank you Based God, but yeah I’ve done it. AR was blue for months, we went green and I was so thrown off I was going into the wrong portals and not realizing towers were mine, not gonna lie.

See thats a temporary issue tho, if colour randomness was added you would never again but used to be a color and would quickly learn to pay attention

Cost of implementation aside, is there any reason not to rotate colors/sides? Will this hurt anybody?

DevonCarver.5370:

To be clear, assuming we make this change, it would have basically 0% to do with world completion. While that would certainly be a side effect of the change, I’d like to do it because it will add a small amount of variety to the matchups, nothing more and nothing less.

I think you get it wrong with color rotation. You may also lack of knowledge about this. At the moment in SM

1st rank is green and always located at the bottom left
2nd rank is blue and always located at bottom right
3rd rank is red and always located at top.

This is a fact and valid at all matches. What people want is that being able to located at other locations even being at first rank always. The color is just something representing word of locations. And this helps %100 of map completion.

rhodoc.2381:

DevonCarver.5370:

To be clear, assuming we make this change, it would have basically 0% to do with world completion. While that would certainly be a side effect of the change, I’d like to do it because it will add a small amount of variety to the matchups, nothing more and nothing less.

I think you get it wrong with color rotation. You may also lack of knowledge about this. At the moment in SM

1st rank is green and always located at the bottom left
2nd rank is blue and always located at bottom right
3rd rank is red and always located at top.

This is a fact and valid at all matches. What people want is that being able to located at other locations even being at first rank always. The color is just something representing word of locations. And this helps %100 of map completion.

He stated the primary reason would be variety. How did that lead you to believe he doesn’t understand how this works? Your post is baffling.

Catisa.6507:

DeWolfe.2174:

anything, with the capacity to treb Stone Mist from Overlook, this gives Red a distinct advantage. No other zones can attack SM from a keep. Pangloss is also a highly defensible camp on the map too. I think the developers did a good job of making the zones balanced and a slight edge to the 3rd place world.

Sorry but you missed a few glaring weaknesses. Overlook is also the only keep that can be trebbed from SM, effectively making the outer wall negligent and the WP pointless.
As for any argument about pangloss, the same can be said for Rogues in the green corner. It too has two highly defensible entrances.
Red is further disadvantaged when it comes to speldan, not only is it far from home making it the most difficult to defend, its yaks have the furthest distance to travel making it the easiest to pick off.
Anz pass is also further from the keep then any green tower and also is very hard to defend when you don’t hold SM.

Overlook can be trebbed from SM, but you forget, to achieve this, a well placement treb is needed. In addition this treb can be destroyed easily with raw force (AoE) or treb from overlook itself. Although you can breach outer wall/gate, to push to inner, is hardest than two other keeps. The high ground of this keep is the key of defending overlook.

Pangloss is a death trap supply camp. It is the narrowest (closed-space) supply camp in all entire battlegrounds. (In addition it has a shortest supply route). Its choke point is the longest and has a small turn in it (make it harder to see directly what inside this camp (compared to danelon and rogue)). In addition, the heart of the camp (veteran guard) is the smallest (make it harder to maneuver). This make defending Pangloss easier than danelon and rogue. The drawback is: the defender will have a hard time if enemies can push to the heart of the camp.

Ogrewatch: although its gate is on offside area, its high ground is also the key of success for defending the tower.

Mendon: due to speldan, this tower always lacks of supply. In addition this tower is hard to defend (as siege in bridge can be wiped easily). This make area placement of siege in mendon limited. The good thing about this tower, it faced directly to red spawn point. They can drop siege near where they out and they can take this tower easily.

Yes they have some glaring weakness, but they have more advantage than other team. Its just about your team now. Can you use these advantages to the fullest ?

I’m at a loss for why you guys would think this is a good idea.

This would be incredibly annoying and unbalanced for a variety of reasons.

First, it would make it almost impossible to go in as a group to a battleground on reset, unless it was EB. Nobody would know what battlefield is what when queueing, which would make reset night basically not much fun.

Second, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places are arranged to specifically give advantages to one server over another based on placement. In EBG 1st has an advantage on 2nd because of how open Umberglade and Durios are compared to Ogrewatch and Pangloss. Similarly, 1st has a hard time taking QL and Danelon from 2nd. Conversely, 1st has an advantage against 3rd at Anz and Speldan, although not nearly as stark as the advantage moving from 3’s area to 2’s. Additionally, 3rd also gets the best position to treb SMC from.

The borderlands are similarly arranged, with the ‘weak’ server (1 on 3, 2 on 1, and 3 on 2) getting the Bay side in exchange for a somewhat difficult defense from Garrison’s treb spot, with the strong server receiving the option of pressuring garrison or bay, and homeworld choosing to open bay in exchange for better attacking chances on the north camps or simply press it and increase the chances of an attack on garrison by the strong side. (consider also the ease of attacking south of hills from hills versus attacking south of bay from bay; hint- You can treb one of these keeps from the south, but not the other.)

The 1, 2, 3 positions are arranged for a specific balance reason. Randomizing these would make for more boring matchups at higher tiers where these advantages are used to their fullest.

Additionally, it would impact lower tiers in that the matchups as is naturally make you need fewer people to take points off of an opponent who is higher ranked than you.

Catisa.6507:

BaconCatTheGreasy.9542:

As it stands, the server I am on (Jade Quaggan) is always first. We always, ALWAYS win (the one time we didn’t was because of an exploit!) and as such we are always Green. This makes WvW Map completion very difficult to get. Can we please just have the colour randomized?

So wait you ALWAYS win but are incapable of taking other servers garrisons/keeps/towers to get your completion ?!?!?!?

i still dont understand what the OP is talking about? its harder to get map completion the less territory you control. period.

Midnightjade.3520:

Catisa.6507:

BaconCatTheGreasy.9542:

As it stands, the server I am on (Jade Quaggan) is always first. We always, ALWAYS win (the one time we didn’t was because of an exploit!) and as such we are always Green. This makes WvW Map completion very difficult to get. Can we please just have the colour randomized?

So wait you ALWAYS win but are incapable of taking other servers garrisons/keeps/towers to get your completion ?!?!?!?

Yes, it may seem strange but this is true. If you are on a strong server and win but are facing strong opposition, the enemy will always have core centers upon which it can rely and which it will defend strongly.

BG and SoR EB keeps in T1 are really good examples. Taking them as a JQ attacker is very very difficult – those servers are not in T1 by accident!

In addition on the rare occasions we take them we usually cannot hold them for long.

Rotating spawns in WvW would equalize the battlefield. As a side-effect, it would also allow world completion for those that have been waiting for it for weeks or months, especially on server groups where the opposing forces are well organized and the battlefield tends to remain static for long periods of time.

and what about the people on the other side who are getting stomped out, so you’re 90% map completion and they’re 10%, and you’re complaining? wtf

DevonCarver.5370:

Interestingly enough we just were discussing this with Habib, master of all things WvW and I think we will do this soon, if it is as easy to do as we hope. It will just make things a little more interesting.

I can’t wait till JQ gets the advantage of being Red in EB. FUN TIMES.

(Note: Green and Blue should probably be swapped I know)

Rather, can we have a designated server color? Like, black for SoR, Yellow for KN, Green for CD, pink for TC, etc.

First world problems at there best:

Dear devs,

Hi mai servar is frust in the NORTH AMERICA an i can not be any but green so can not finis map(( . Plis to allow colour cahnge for map complete. THANKS.

DevonCarver.5370:

To be clear, assuming we make this change, it would have basically 0% to do with world completion. While that would certainly be a side effect of the change, I’d like to do it because it will add a small amount of variety to the matchups, nothing more and nothing less.

Execuse me but that’s not what many pve people think. For many pve people, playing in wvw is for world completion.

Say I am blue/red, and there is this vista/poi in a green keep that is always fortified by huge defenders and sieges, and no one in blue/red can ever take it for months or ever (at my daily 2-3 hours login time). That is the only vista/poi that prevents me from world completion.

By color rotation, at least there is a 33% chance that we will be green and sit at the green BL/EB next week, so that I can have the vista/poi for free finally in approximately 3 weeks, as opposed to endless waiting wishing for someone someday takes the keep.

People who wvw will wvw. There is no need to draw pve people into wvw ‘cause all they care is world completion. Having pve people who do not even bother to learn wvw stretagy usually burn your supply where they are not supposed to and don’t follow to commander’s plan, which is actually bad.

So yeah I think the OP just want to rotate to a different color BL/EB to get the vista/poi. Nothing complicating or brabbling about JQ being #1 XD. Because this issue also happens to many other tiers, especially many servers had learned the importance of defending their keeps and never lost them.

BBMouse.6510:

DevonCarver.5370:

To be clear, assuming we make this change, it would have basically 0% to do with world completion. While that would certainly be a side effect of the change, I’d like to do it because it will add a small amount of variety to the matchups, nothing more and nothing less.

Execuse me but that’s not what many pve people think. For many pve people, playing in wvw is for world completion.

Say I am blue/red, and there is this vista/poi in a green keep that is always fortified by huge defenders and sieges, and no one in blue/red can ever take it for months or ever (at my daily 2-3 hours login time). That is the only vista/poi that prevents me from world completion.

By color rotation, at least there is a 33% chance that we will be green and sit at the green BL/EB next week, so that I can have the vista/poi for free finally in approximately 3 weeks, as opposed to endless waiting wishing for someone someday takes the keep.

People who wvw will wvw. There is no need to draw pve people into wvw ‘cause all they care is world completion. Having pve people who do not even bother to learn wvw stretagy usually burn your supply where they are not supposed to and don’t follow to commander’s plan, which is actually bad.

So yeah I think the OP just want to rotate to a different color BL/EB to get the vista/poi. Nothing complicating or brabbling about JQ being #1 XD. Because this issue also happens to many other tiers, especially many servers had learned the importance of defending their keeps and never lost them.

While many of us want this change so we can finish map completion there are much bigger reasons this should be done.

For example, my server has been red for as long as I can remember. This means every week we defend the same towers, the same keeps. It gets boring.
To exacerbate the issue we’ve also been facing the same two opponents for weeks now, which means we’re defending the same stuff against the same people. It’s boring as heck.

Some of our WvWers have stopped playing wvw because of it, which just further locks us into red. If we had some variety even facing the same opponents wouldn’t be nearly so tedious, and we might just keep enough people involved to do better.

I went into wvw to map, and helped out where I could while there. It started to get interesting, but I’ve now spent four weeks mapping the red borderlands and the red 3rd of EB on eight. different. characters.
I’m tired of red, and consequently since that’s where we’re stuck I’m tired of wvw.

There are so many people who are completely missing the point, because all they can see is that the change would benefit people who want to map stuff, and then complain we spend so much time there. So let me clue you in, the faster a PvEr can finish mapping the faster they’ll be out of your hair and you can get on with your PvP.
Other benefits to wvw aside.

Currently I’m trying to help my server be better so I can achieve what I want, but if that fails I will start exploring ways to make us lose in the hopes of dropping a tier in the further hope we end up a different color.

I personally like the idea of PvE versions of the WvWvW maps which awards no PvP benefits whatsoever (badges, blueprints). This would keep non-contributing PvE players from taking up slots on map and in queue while freeing up space for more dedicated WvWvW players. The PvE players can take their time and enjoy the art, content, JPs at their leisure while WvWvW players never need set eyes on them. Since badges aren’t awarded, you’d still need to do WvWvW to complete a Legendary (and in a pinch, completion of the PvE map versions could simply not award Gifts).

You can treb SM from Valley (you crush Langor+QL+Bravost iirc with the same treb) without getting treb back and the treb is really hard/impossible to AoE. Langor is nothing but impossible to take without outnumbers. Valley is hard time to take and no good treb/cata spots. But Durios is very weak.

Water Gate is buggy for golems in LL and with treb ,it’s a child job to defend green towers. LL is nearly more easy to defend than Valley if outer north gate. But easier to roam.

Red have Anza/Speldan (aggro the npc on the camp and enjoy 10+ pve farmers camping it)/Mendon impossible to keep but Veloka/Pangloss/Ogrewatch are real bunkers if you have Overlook.

The mistake is not map rotation.. the mistake is adding PvE content like vista, SP’s POI’s and JP’s to WvW.. If that was not added this would not be an issue..

getting pretty boring being the same color all the time anet. BORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

not only do we face the same server, but we face them from the same boring locations. The rankings predict/show that we will have the SAME MATCH-UP with the same colors again next week.

…. and btw, the whole of our server can’t even take certain keeps on our server, thus how does one expect someone to “just capture it.”

Personally I am glad I had to go into WvW to get some map completion, it got me having a go and getting involved in something I might have shied away from otherwise. We’ve been stuck on green for a while now and I’m kicking myself for not having completed blue side when I had the chance. I didn’t realise they were changing the way it was rotated and now I’m stuck on 99% and the things I need I can count on one hand I have got involved with pushes against blue fortresses and keeps, and managed to get some completion from that, but there are things that our server are very unlikely to attack and I am at the mercy of either other people on my server, or the colour rotation. I am glad to hear they are thinking of changing the colour rotation.

BaconCatTheGreasy.9542:

As it stands, the server I am on (Jade Quaggan) is always first. We always, ALWAYS win (the one time we didn’t was because of an exploit!) and as such we are always Green. This makes WvW Map completion very difficult to get. Can we please just have the colour randomized?

You got beat fair and square, that is all.

pot.6805:

BaconCatTheGreasy.9542:

As it stands, the server I am on (Jade Quaggan) is always first. We always, ALWAYS win (the one time we didn’t was because of an exploit!) and as such we are always Green. This makes WvW Map completion very difficult to get. Can we please just have the colour randomized?

You got beat fair and square, that is all.

true dat, we lost, no strings attached, BG should be proud of their against the odds win. This entire thread is a bit pointless too. I’ve gotten WvW completion on at least 2 alts since we’ve been in dominant first, We regularly flip entire maps during times when we have superior coverage, and the only one that might be a bit of an issue is EB, which has to be done over a few weeks.

Still though, I’m not sure I want the colors to rotate unless they actually change the colors themselves (teal, purple, white, orange, etc…). SoR and BG just recently switched places in the ranking, so when I want to go to “red borderlands” I go to SoRBL, which is now blue xD. Just a bit of a facepalm moment for me every time, but I agree that it might add some variety, and no small measure of hilarity when the I try to run inside a green tower, only to realize that we aren’t green.

Green Blue Red should be the outcome of each weeks match, not Glicko.
It gives us something to strive for each week, not leaving us with a bad taste in out mouth for gaining nothing after a weeks worth of hard work.
Moving up and down in the ranks can remain the same.

I always felt like the jump puzzle on EB was set up wrong. Why is first place given such a good starting place? Right next to the starting ledge, up high so it cannot get bombed. Second place is really in a tough spot because the starting area is low and seigable. Third place actually has a decent start but not as good as first place. To me, it makes more sense to allow the other servers to have easier access to seige and jump puzzles. I guess not?