Guild Wars 2

Talyn.3295:

However, there is an important factor that no one is looking at. Those guilds are doing closed raids because they want to, because it is fun for them. The more people troll them and ruin the game experience for them, the more likely it is for a WvW guild to pick up and move to another server that might accommodate them better.

This may be correct but statistically incorrect. Most guild leave for a bunch of other reasons, first of, to fight other guilds that they have not yet fought.
I know of none that left because a few pugs followed them.

Secondly – to pick up on that statistical part again that was mentioned way above on a post – we have to differ between fights and gvgs. It is a myth that gvg contributes in any way to the wvw game even if it “keeps another guild busy”. wvw is always a 3 party game but gvg is always only 2 opponents. So while a gvg is always giving massive advantage to the 3 party on the map. Especially in prime time when most gvg happen you have half our map and another group gvg somewhere while the 3rd party basically blobs. Combined with the fact that gvg people dont defend and on top partially also call fake incs on other maps to get others to leave the map so they can get even more of their own in, they are certainly not contributing to the wvw game mode.

Regarding scrims, it is a matter of reputation of the guild. And that reputation must be earned with the community. This happens automtically if you are running on your own while still being willing to coordinate with the others. Guild could even contribute one of their own players to lead the pugs….no idea why the never do that.
In the end if a guild does not earn rep then they have to life with the fact that the “everyone can do as they want” is a two sided sword that swings both ways.

Ancha.8065:

Talyn.3295:

However, there is an important factor that no one is looking at. Those guilds are doing closed raids because they want to, because it is fun for them. The more people troll them and ruin the game experience for them, the more likely it is for a WvW guild to pick up and move to another server that might accommodate them better.

This may be correct but statistically incorrect. Most guild leave for a bunch of other reasons, first of, to fight other guilds that they have not yet fought.
I know of none that left because a few pugs followed them.

Secondly – to pick up on that statistical part again that was mentioned way above on a post – we have to differ between fights and gvgs. It is a myth that gvg contributes in any way to the wvw game even if it “keeps another guild busy”. wvw is always a 3 party game but gvg is always only 2 opponents. So while a gvg is always giving massive advantage to the 3 party on the map. Especially in prime time when most gvg happen you have half our map and another group gvg somewhere while the 3rd party basically blobs. Combined with the fact that gvg people dont defend and on top partially also call fake incs on other maps to get others to leave the map so they can get even more of their own in, they are certainly not contributing to the wvw game mode.

Regarding scrims, it is a matter of reputation of the guild. And that reputation must be earned with the community. This happens automtically if you are running on your own while still being willing to coordinate with the others. Guild could even contribute one of their own players to lead the pugs….no idea why the never do that.
In the end if a guild does not earn rep then they have to life with the fact that the “everyone can do as they want” is a two sided sword that swings both ways.

True, guilds do move for many reasons. And I am not defending any kind of behavior that interferes with peoples enjoyment of their game. The sword does swing both ways, but I also recall a post that said “followed the guild with a tag to get more pugs on them” I find that to be pretty offensive, as they are just trolling for no reason.

With 4 maps there ought to be enough room for all (every play style), even on our prim time I don’t see that there are extremely long anymore, outside of reset and at least one map is always open to join. This may change with a new season or HoT, not sure on that as of yet.

As people have stated your server is your team, and while most raid are open I don’t understand how a person could enjoy tagging along with a guild that is doing their best to ditch them at ever turn.

I am trying to be a voice of reason. There are two others servers that we should be fighting against, not our own.

x Charlie.4820:

aquabat.2986:

Yeah I guess you are right. They are entitled to ruin the game for anyone else whenever they feel like it.

Dumb mentality of people expecting others to play to their satisfaction so they can enjoy their free time. Maybe the guy doesn’t want to roam on his own because hes new? Are you not now ruining his game by telling him to?

Is it such a dumb mentality that guilds want to do guild raids? No fight guilds is ever forcing anyone to play how they do, other than themselves. What about people forcing guilds to run with pugs, even if they don’t want any? I’m sure you would be fine with that, as fight guilds don’t play the game proper, i.e., the correct ppt way.

If someone has gone so far as purchased the game and created an account, they should presumably have at least 2 brain cells to rub together and an internet connection. Is it so difficult to go to google and search for “introduction to WvW combat”? Is it so difficult to ask in map “Hey guy I’m new to WvW can someone teach me a few things I need to know?” Or even coming across a guild and asking them, “hey can I follow you guys?” Noone is ruining their game experiance by telling them they don’t want pugs to come along. Chances are if they are indeed new, they are just going to die on inc every time and have their own bad time regardless of who is around them. Just now that they decided they want to be forcefully apart of some guilds fights they are making it bad for them too.

NeroGuilt.4720:

Word entitled being passed around so much i feel like I’m at a trust fund baby convention. Lol. On a serious note, just don’t kitten with the guild. Is it that complicated? If they don’t want you, that is their choice. You people that troll because you get kitten, just keep being sub par. At no point during my time doing nothing but roam did I feel like screwing up someone’s skill group..why should you? Just more people to add to the “let die” list.

If you don’t like a sport team, do you run onto the field, steal the ball, then kitten midfield?

Nope, not their choice.

They are on public territory, as far as the game is concerned, so they have no jurisdiction to stop people running with/near/on them, whatever.

Your analogy is also ridiculous, of course, as the sports team is probably playing on a private field, with their own ball; not on a public field, with no ball…

It is the people who whispered the OP who come across as “entitled” (which, BTW, is a totally separate meaning of the word, to people’s genuine entitlements in life/a game), as they seem to think they have authority that they really don’t have and are entitled to say what they like to other customers.

As long as they stop behaving like Cartman, when he was made hall monitor and people like you stop trying to defend them, we will all get along a lot better.

Tigaseye.2047:

NeroGuilt.4720:

Word entitled being passed around so much i feel like I’m at a trust fund baby convention. Lol. On a serious note, just don’t kitten with the guild. Is it that complicated? If they don’t want you, that is their choice. You people that troll because you get kitten, just keep being sub par. At no point during my time doing nothing but roam did I feel like screwing up someone’s skill group..why should you? Just more people to add to the “let die” list.

If you don’t like a sport team, do you run onto the field, steal the ball, then kitten midfield?

Nope, not their choice.

They are on public territory, as far as the game is concerned, so they have no jurisdiction to stop people running with/near/on them, whatever.

Your analogy is also ridiculous, of course, as the sports team is probably playing on a private field, with their own ball; not on a public field, with no ball…

It is the people who whispered the OP who come across as “entitled” (which, BTW, is a totally separate meaning of the word, to people’s genuine entitlements in life/a game), as they seem to think they have authority that they really don’t have and are entitled to say what they like to other customers.

As long as they stop behaving like Cartman, when he was made hall monitor and people like you stop trying to defend them, we will all get along a lot better.

Yes, it is just as much their choice as it is for you to wander up to them. Do I agree with how they handled it? No. I never stated that reacting like an kitten is the best solution. With that said, I will never stop defending people wanting to have a closed group. I like to play with people I know are above a certain skill level and can communicate, do you not? No body wants to lose a guild fight because one random bad rallied half the enemy group. Hell if you want to blame anything, blame the down/rally system. Not people who just want to play with people who can actually play.

Most guilds will also give you ts3 info or such to communicate, then will let you tag along. If you can’t be bothered to put forth the effort to at least do that, then you don’t deserve to be with the group. Defend skilled play.

^ Well, yes, I get that there are issues with the design of the game, but that is the devs’ fault, not the players’; so you should take that up with them.

It is your right (and entitlement!), as a paying customer, to expect a game that functions properly and I would be more than happy to support you in that.

Blaming other paying customers, who are just trying to play a (flawed) game as it is presented to them, however, is both pointless and unacceptable.

While I don’t agree with just going off on people for it, you do kind of expect a little effort. It isn’t that hard to talk to guilds, get into teamspeak, look for guild websites, etc.

Now, the few people that posted saying they purposely troll with tags in guild raids, they deserve no respect. They deserve no kindness. Not being good at a game is one thing. Not being good, getting upset, and then purposely dragging them down is a joke. You will never be respected by your server. Nor should you ever be.

What you can do and what is socially permissible in the wvw community are two different things.

Sure, technically, you can troll claim, follow a zerg and throw paper ballistas, spy for another server, waste keep supply by building paper rams, break up gvg’s, troll duelers, or run golems off a cliff, but should you? The game allows said actions due to a lack of functionality, but there is a modicum of decorum that should be shown between players.

The closed guild raid could have definitely handled the situation better by pointing out the public pug tag.

The content is stale and the wvw community has grown pretty insular (bad), but you will not have a good time if you break “the rules” and become known as a troll by your server. unless you enjoy that kind of thing, in which case you are a terrible person.

Ragnar.4257:

You’re entitled to go wherever you want in WvW the same way you’re allowed to go wherever you want in a public park.

That still doesn’t make it acceptable to go and sit in the middle of someone’s picnic and demand to be included in their frisbee game.

This is just a terrible analogy. It would most definitely be acceptable to want to play, if you helped pay for the Frisbee. Both parties in this argument paid for GW2.

No … it would be more like 2 people playing golf, each buying their own equipment to play in the field created by the golf club. They each pay for there gear and each pay for the right to play on the field. If one guy decides to shot his golf balls like pool queues … he is allowed. But he cannot shoot the other persons golf balls.

play the way you want, but don’t intervene on others games.

Hexin.5603:

play the way you want, but don’t intervene on others games.

Correct me if im wrong but i was under the impression we was talking about people playing in the same team, in the same matchup (aka game.)

If people are coming into your game from other matchups then that’s probably a bug which you should contact anet about. If not then what you just said holds no ground.

aquabat.2986:

Is it such a dumb mentality that guilds want to do guild raids?

It’s a dumb mentality to belive your entitled to have your own part of the map that nobody should come to.

It’s a dumb mentality that you expect everyone else on the server to not play as they want and enjoy themselfs so that YOU can.

aquabat.2986:

If someone has gone so far as purchased the game and created an account, they should presumably have at least 2 brain cells to rub together and an internet connection.

Well 2 years down the line and many NO WE ARE NOT ADDING GVG confirmations from devs and we still have GvG threads popping up on the front page. Infact the current one says “How GvG will work” insinuating that GvG has been a confirmed gamemode.

You got the internet connection part spot on though!

Turk.5460:

Ragnar.4257:

You’re entitled to go wherever you want in WvW the same way you’re allowed to go wherever you want in a public park.

That still doesn’t make it acceptable to go and sit in the middle of someone’s picnic and demand to be included in their frisbee game.

This is just a terrible analogy. It would most definitely be acceptable to want to play, if you helped pay for the Frisbee. Both parties in this argument paid for GW2.

Well thats an even worse analogy. You helped pay for the park, not the frisbee. The frisbee wouldnt even have been tossed if there wherent two other people in the park.

To make an actual ingame comparison, thats like saying you helped pay for the chat bubbles used by two roleplayers, so they are obligated to let you in on their discussion.

If you want to play the game the way you wish, then respect that guilds want the same. It do hurt the guild when pugs join them. It might not feel that way for you, because you actually don’t see the consequences, but for the guild it is very noticeable.

As for example, you are no on our teamspeak. You can not hear what our raidleader tells us. You have no clue when he calls for fields to blast, and the chance that you screw that up for us by placing your own and overwrite is huge, happens mostly every fight there is a pug in it. If you can’t follow our movements you will be killed, this in it self can determine if we win or loose the fight, because every person that tagged you and are them self in downstate, will rally on you when you die.
So we might just have manage to down many of them and are about to finish them off, and you go down and BAM all of them are now up again, and we might end up loose that fight. This might not feel important for you, but for us as a focused wvw guild, those fights are important and why each and everyone of us put down time to it.

With above said, i do want to add that being rude when asking you to leave is not ok. I always politely ask people to respect our wish for a private raid and to join the pug commander instead. Most of the time i get a respectful answer back and they leave.
I also don’t ask such thing when we are inside of keeps and towers. Because then it is not about our fight but about defending what the server own.

A game might be open for all but this do not mean that you have to choose to join a group of people who do not want you there at all. The mentality i can do what i want feels somewhat childish. Because in the end it is about respect for other peoples way of playing. If you need a guild group to be happy, then find a guild and raid with them or join the blue tag which is mostly the pug-comander.

In real life on open situations, like say on a club, or in a store or anything the like, you are allowed to go were ever you want, but this does not mean that you can jump in to any group you want. Social skills and respect apply in games as well.

About tags, this depends on the server, but most servers have requests about guilds tagging up so that people know were they are. And other guilds don’t run across the map to find the guild they want to fight if they see another guild close to them already.

x Charlie.4820:

aquabat.2986:

Is it such a dumb mentality that guilds want to do guild raids?

It’s a dumb mentality to belive your entitled to have your own part of the map that nobody should come to.

It’s a dumb mentality that you expect everyone else on the server to not play as they want and enjoy themselfs so that YOU can.

aquabat.2986:

If someone has gone so far as purchased the game and created an account, they should presumably have at least 2 brain cells to rub together and an internet connection.

Well 2 years down the line and many NO WE ARE NOT ADDING GVG confirmations from devs and we still have GvG threads popping up on the front page. Infact the current one says “How GvG will work” insinuating that GvG has been a confirmed gamemode.

You got the internet connection part spot on though!

It is even more of a dumb mentality that you think 1 person is more important than an entire guild. Again, no fight guild is making anyone to play as they want, apart from themselves. If people just come unannounced and unwanted into a guild run they are making that whole guild play as they want, just so they can have a bit of fun without bothering to learn anything about combat or the class they play on.

I can build some siege, upgrade some keeps, repair some walls, and get inundated with abuse and spam reported. Yet a guild can’t go off somewhere and raid minding their own business without randoms coming in and ruining 2 guilds of fun like they have a right to. This doesn’t have anything to do with GvG being a separate game mode. Just guilds that want to do guild raids without interference. I don’t even care for GvG in it’s current state. Too many little johnnys who think they are more important than multiple guilds combined forcing them to play and spoon feed little johnny a little bit of fun for an hour or two on demand.

So basically, you have the internet requirement checked, now you just need 2 brain cells to rub together.

tl;dr – Guilds have every right to ask you to leave. You are perfectly able to do so or not as you choose, and there is nothing they can do to force you. It really comes down to how you feel you should treat peoples’ requests in the circumstances. If they get abusive, of course, you can report them.

Food for thought, though: the game makes it a lot harder to exclude people than to include them.

And people still haven’t realized guilds have ways to make randoms experience with that guild a bad one.
I’ve seen top guilds going to suicide places and then back to kill all randoms, jumping hills with falling damage trait, go TP when being in the north, or moving to another map to get rid of randoms.
Also, most of the time randoms interfering with closed raids are quite bad, and in any fight they will die the first. If you annoy a GvG, enemies will kill you. So not much a problem.

Of course everybody is free to do whatever he wants in the map. The same freedom randoms have to disturb guilds, guilds have it to get rid of them.

Conclusion: Do a favor to your server and let guilds do private raids. Like if zerguing was the only way to play wvw…

^^ Basically join open raids – usually leaded at server’s ts – at last in T1. If u want to hang with closed raid then u might be insta killed ^^ That is our sollution, when we are about a fight we run away from pugs and enemy kill em, nothing wrong here, they just didn’t follow us up and got killed

The ubiquitous phrase, “I pay the same as you, don’t tell me how to play”, should be enough to stop them moaning at you. It’s not great for intra-server relations, though.

aquabat.2986:

It is even more of a dumb mentality that you think 1 person is more important than an entire guild.

Never said that. Infact i’m trying to say that nobody is more important than anyone else but you fail to understand.

aquabat.2986:

So basically, you have the internet requirement checked, now you just need 2 brain cells to rub together.

Mature, I can see you make good debates.
Also you’ve already used that once, Maybe you should try a new insult?

Dawdler.8521:

Turk.5460:

Ragnar.4257:

You’re entitled to go wherever you want in WvW the same way you’re allowed to go wherever you want in a public park.

That still doesn’t make it acceptable to go and sit in the middle of someone’s picnic and demand to be included in their frisbee game.

This is just a terrible analogy. It would most definitely be acceptable to want to play, if you helped pay for the Frisbee. Both parties in this argument paid for GW2.

Well thats an even worse analogy. You helped pay for the park, not the frisbee. The frisbee wouldnt even have been tossed if there wherent two other people in the park.

To make an actual ingame comparison, thats like saying you helped pay for the chat bubbles used by two roleplayers, so they are obligated to let you in on their discussion.

An actual in-game comparison would be like saying that all parties paid for the same use of the game, so they are all entitled to do whatever they want. Oh wait, that’s what this discussion is about.

i find it silly that people say fight guilds don’t contribute to ppt. In reality they occupy the opponents and if they’re successful, some of the opponents fair weather away leaving the enemy server with less people to play the ppt game.

This seems to go back and forth with the whole, “No you can’t.”, “Yes I can.” argument. I hate the argument, but honestly it is ANet’s fault for not including the GvG option that people have been begging for. In all honesty there should be room for open field closed raids and also PuGmanders that take the non-affiliated. The unfortunate part of this is that some servers don’t have enough interest or players to field a PuGmander with any kind of following.

The dark side of this is that there are players that simply do not care if they are screwing up someone else’s fun, because, “by god they paid for this game too!” I feel for people that either A) Don’t have a guild that regularly W3’s, orReside on a server that has so few W3ers that they must tag along on a closed raid, but remember that the players in that closed raid chose a certain play-style too.

Can you? Yes.
Should you? No.

I have personally struggled with this subject quite a lot over the years.

Plenty of people have already posted about the practical aspects. One of my biggest issues is that the private raids were in their own TS. Finally, our server implemented a system where guild leaders could easily create their own private group in our servers TS. This enabled them to hear commander chat and co-ordinate with the other commanders across maps.

So, it boils down to everything that has been said so far. However, there’s another issue: This is a social game. I personally admire one guild on my server and always want to run with them. Am I entitled to do so? Sure. It’s a free country. Are they entitled to run alone? Sure they are. So, how do we resolve this? There is no resolution.

But being a social game, you are making choices that have repercussions. If you disrespect the guild group asking you to go away, then you will kitten them off and if you ever want to join their guild in the future, then you may not be able to because they remember you as the guy who disrespected their wishes.

Of course, the same goes for the guild. If they continue to only run privately, and be elitist kittens, then they will be un-liked, have a hard time getting co-operation from other guilds or pugs, and have a hard time recruiting if they need to. This is especially true if they are the only organized team on all the maps.

Either way, there’s more to consider than “why can’t I run with you now.”

Turk.5460:

Dawdler.8521:

Turk.5460:

Ragnar.4257:

You’re entitled to go wherever you want in WvW the same way you’re allowed to go wherever you want in a public park.

That still doesn’t make it acceptable to go and sit in the middle of someone’s picnic and demand to be included in their frisbee game.

This is just a terrible analogy. It would most definitely be acceptable to want to play, if you helped pay for the Frisbee. Both parties in this argument paid for GW2.

Well thats an even worse analogy. You helped pay for the park, not the frisbee. The frisbee wouldnt even have been tossed if there wherent two other people in the park.

To make an actual ingame comparison, thats like saying you helped pay for the chat bubbles used by two roleplayers, so they are obligated to let you in on their discussion.

An actual in-game comparison would be like saying that all parties paid for the same use of the game, so they are all entitled to do whatever they want. Oh wait, that’s what this discussion is about.

You keep talking about what you’re “entitled” to do, not what is socially acceptable.

Trolls are “entitled” to do the annoying stuff they do, it doesn’t make it any more acceptable amongst civilised, decent human beings.

Going back to the park, I’m entitled to follow you around the park all day playing the bagpipes loudly (and badly) and setting up a whiteboard whenever you stop, and drawing insulting images of your mother, ruining your day out. Just because I’m entitled to do that, doesn’t mean you should be forced to shrug your shoulders and accept it.

Deliberately disrupting other people’s leisure time, entitled or not, is always a low, dirty way to live your life, however you want to spin it.

If you insist that anything which isn’t explicitly against the rules is fair-game, then, well, society just wouldn’t function. GGthx4civilisation, back to living in caves.

Ragnar.4257:

Turk.5460:

Dawdler.8521:

Turk.5460:

Ragnar.4257:

You’re entitled to go wherever you want in WvW the same way you’re allowed to go wherever you want in a public park.

That still doesn’t make it acceptable to go and sit in the middle of someone’s picnic and demand to be included in their frisbee game.

This is just a terrible analogy. It would most definitely be acceptable to want to play, if you helped pay for the Frisbee. Both parties in this argument paid for GW2.

Well thats an even worse analogy. You helped pay for the park, not the frisbee. The frisbee wouldnt even have been tossed if there wherent two other people in the park.

To make an actual ingame comparison, thats like saying you helped pay for the chat bubbles used by two roleplayers, so they are obligated to let you in on their discussion.

An actual in-game comparison would be like saying that all parties paid for the same use of the game, so they are all entitled to do whatever they want. Oh wait, that’s what this discussion is about.

You keep talking about what you’re “entitled” to do, not what is socially acceptable.

Trolls are “entitled” to do the annoying stuff they do, it doesn’t make it any more acceptable amongst civilised, decent human beings.

Going back to the park, I’m entitled to follow you around the park all day playing the bagpipes loudly (and badly) and setting up a whiteboard whenever you stop, and drawing insulting images of your mother, ruining your day out. Just because I’m entitled to do that, doesn’t mean you should be forced to shrug your shoulders and accept it.

Deliberately disrupting other people’s leisure time, entitled or not, is always a low, dirty way to live your life, however you want to spin it.

If you insist that anything which isn’t explicitly against the rules is fair-game, then, well, society just wouldn’t function. GGthx4civilisation, back to living in caves.

I never said it was socially acceptable. I have maintained that its a good idea to ignore what the guild says if they’re at an objective, and to concede to them if they are not.

But if you want to compare more, following me around with bagpipes, drawing lewd pictures, and disrupting my day more, you would be cited for harassment and possible as well for causing a public disturbance. What you’re relating to_is_ against “the rules” and actually has legal repercussions. All of this done in game is not against any rules of any sort, nor does it have any legal repercussions.

Again, I only like to play devil’s advocate, I still maintain the opinion that guilds can go suck it if they ask someone to leave an objective, but I also feel they have good reason to ask someone to leave their little zerg if they are out and about.

Hexin.5603:

Closed raids should run tagless. Keeps the scrubs and rally bots away.

I willing to bet OP’s server has tag colors designated like almost all others if not every other server. I’d guess OP didn’t know. That’s why I think it’s very important to be a part of the community you joined and use the website if they have one, and be on TS. Think OP’s level of anger over this is a little much. I understand that taking up spots during prime on a high pop server would make a couple PPTers mad, but I think it was mentioned that the other server has the same amount not playing the PPT game. And you do get points for killing other players….

Take pride in your server, be a good server m8 and wish them luck, or learn something and watch. They 100% have a right to only fight in WvW, there’s no rules against it at all. And they have a right to “ask” that they be left to do their thing(hopefully not like a kitten, but because you can’t tell inflection in mapchat, most take it the wrong way). Unless they’re taking or defending objectives, but obviously that’s not gvging.

I think it’s awesome to see player organized gvgs in this game, there’s actually a 10v10 tourney going down in NA bronze tier right now. Organized by one person(hats off to Zeeb Rah). The more ppl gvg, the more it shows Anet that there needs to be arenas of some type in this game. There are already arenas all throughout Tyria, they wouldn’t even have to make new areas for it. Or stats or leaderboards to start out with, just the ability to fight and not bother other players. Be mad at Anet for dragging their feet to implement a non WvW map gvg mode, not the guilds who are trying to have a good time.

JDjitsu.7895:

I think it’s awesome to see player organized gvgs in this game, there’s actually a 10v10 tourney going down in NA bronze tier right now. Organized by one person(hats off to Zeeb Rah). The more ppl gvg, the more it shows Anet that there needs to be arenas of some type in this game. There are already arenas all throughout Tyria, they wouldn’t even have to make new areas for it. Or stats or leaderboards to start out with, just the ability to fight and not bother other players. Be mad at Anet for dragging their feet to implement a non WvW map gvg mode, not the guilds who are trying to have a good time.

Its just too bad that would deplete the WvW population.

A major thing with whole GvG – at least for me – is that its part of the WvW world. Not something separate. Nothing more pleasing than to have intense battles for an hour, then do a scrim vs another guild on the island only to see 2 friendly guilds and 3 enemy guilds standing side by side watching. Followed by another hour of even more intense battles against the same guilds that has now kittened each other off, lol.

WvW without guilds would be a sad place.