Guild Wars 2

dancingmonkey.4902:

This assessment that you need more stats for direct damage then condition builds do is false. I have plenty of builds that do as much damage in soldiers gear that most condition builds do in dire gear.

The problem is very specific trait combinations + specific weapons skills + specific utilities on specific professions. So let’s not degenerate the conversation to making blanket statements about damage types as a whole, with no actual mathematical truth to thier damage output.

And where is your “Mathematical Truth”?

You claim to have builds that “Do as much damage” in full Soldiers, than most Dire gear builds do, these “I” statements are just as “Blankety” as the others found in this thread.

dancingmonkey.4902:

This assessment that you need more stats for direct damage then condition builds do is false. I have plenty of builds that do as much damage in soldiers gear that most condition builds do in dire gear.

It is easy for power/crit builds to output as much damage. It is practically impossible for power/crit builds to output as much damage and remain stealthed. Condi is always going to have an upside in its current form because it bypasses toughness, doesn’t proc reveal and doesn’t need to be three stat to be highly effective.

IMO Anet should have treated condi damage just like regular damage with cleanses/removal only effecting non-damaging conditions. In this case, Reveal would pop at the application of condi damage. They would likely have to rebalance condi damage but would make for overall better fights.

Straegen.2938:

dancingmonkey.4902:

This assessment that you need more stats for direct damage then condition builds do is false. I have plenty of builds that do as much damage in soldiers gear that most condition builds do in dire gear.

It is easy for power/crit builds to output as much damage. It is practically impossible for power/crit builds to output as much damage and remain stealthed. Condi is always going to have an upside in its current form because it bypasses toughness, doesn’t proc reveal and doesn’t need to be three stat to be highly effective.

IMO Anet should have treated condi damage just like regular damage with cleanses/removal only effecting non-damaging conditions. In this case, Reveal would pop at the application of condi damage. They would likely have to rebalance condi damage but would make for overall better fights.

With your over 5k hours I would have hoped that you wouldn’t spout off about conditions only needing 2 stats since it is so untrue. You absolutely need precision but you will just ignore that part I’m sure. In the time that you have been complaining in this thread you could have come up with a counter. If you don’t believe there is one that is entirely on you. Now if you will excuse me I’m going to hunt some more Mesmers.

bloodletting wolf.2837:

With your over 5k hours I would have hoped that you wouldn’t spout off about conditions only needing 2 stats since it is so untrue. You absolutely need precision but you will just ignore that part I’m sure.

Not really, the only gear stat you need in huge quantities for condi builds is condition damage, now a fair few require some amount of precision to trigger procs, but that just means you replace a few dire bits with rabid, which to take when I occasionally play condi engy as an example means I am still running around with about 3.1k armour, 24k HP without stacks and about 25% crit chance, more than enough to proc incendary powder, or sigils, etc.

Then of course some condi builds don’t require any crit chance, stealth trapper ranger for example as traps trait is in the same secrtion as the bleed on crit trait, so you may as well go full dire.

Which is why dire as a stat is not in PvP, it was considered too OP, as it allows for massive amounts of defense, whilst still being able to put out huge condi damage, basically very imbalanced, low risk, yet high reward, which is why so many nabs play it.

To be fair to condi builds, roaming / small scale WvW is already a joke, stealth & differences in mobility are broken as hell in this scenario, and again low risk / high reward, same goes for these 10 man groups/guilds that go round in all tanky builds (normally ele/guard/warrior) who seem to consist of keyboard turners so opt for the most forgiving setup possible, and can just keep rezzing because of so much stab / impossible to cleave.

Which are just some of the reasons WvW has been in a sad state for a long time, and why most decent roamers / roaming guilds barely play or quit entirely.

Odokuro.5049:

dancingmonkey.4902:

This assessment that you need more stats for direct damage then condition builds do is false. I have plenty of builds that do as much damage in soldiers gear that most condition builds do in dire gear.

The problem is very specific trait combinations + specific weapons skills + specific utilities on specific professions. So let’s not degenerate the conversation to making blanket statements about damage types as a whole, with no actual mathematical truth to thier damage output.

And where is your “Mathematical Truth”?

You claim to have builds that “Do as much damage” in full Soldiers, than most Dire gear builds do, these “I” statements are just as “Blankety” as the others found in this thread.

Well, these number break downs have been posted multiple times in previous threads on this topic. Your a little late to the party. It is fairly common sense and common knowledge among experienced players. Sure, some build on some professions allow one or the other build types to reach larger limits do to a combination of things in that professions trait lines and skills.

Strikes me as odd though, when someone supports an argument making claims with no facts to support them, yet when someone speaks against the notion, you demand they provide facts of them.

Mathematical truth isn’t required to prove the point. Although, you are right that it applies to specific professions: Thief and Mesmer. All you have to do is be a somewhat experienced player and then run a power build 1v1 against a condition built mesmer or thief who knows what they’re doing and you’ll understand immediately. Stealth is balanced when used with power builds, but heavily imbalanced when used with condition builds because of the insane survivability from combining stealth, Dire, and survivability traits/skills (Example: Prismatic Understanding, Hide in Shadows, Chaos Armor, Blinding Dissipation).

Dire is still very overpowered, but perhaps it’s best to first focus on balancing thief and mesmer condition based skills, and leave other professions out, because stealth is balanced with power builds and shouldn’t have to be altered.

IMO I do think PU trait bonus is a little much(and I play quite a bit of Mes in WvW). Maybe add 25-50% instead of 100% increase? Fix the Pledge bug would help with the QQ a lot also. I’d be willing to bet a good portion of the players say it was PU that made them lose against a Mesmer w/o said Mesmer even using the trait though. I’m not meaning all here QQing BTW… I’ve gotten quite a few salty whispers from someone I stomp when I wasn’t even using PU. And I do use it tbh, but it’s situational for me. I don’t use it in all my builds. I don’t mind adapting to the usage of stealth or condi the way it is now. I’ve always been adapting my builds for the new FOTM or meta builds so to speak. A good soldier adapts and overcomes.

My opinion on conditions as they are now, other than the passive proc for confusion they aren’t bad or over the top, it’s the fast re-application/stacking. Especially from the low/zero cooldown skills. But that’s all my opinion, and that’s coming from someone who owns 2 condi sets out of 6 lvl 80s and mains a power Necro. I don’t feel like I’m biased at all. With condi builds, go against a DS ele, most Necros, or a good/smart War or Guard and your damage is neutered. With stealth, I think if people actually really play on a Mes or Thief for a bit, they’ll understand it’s not godmode.

I’m still shocked they haven’t fixed the torch trait for mesmer. There’s been numerous topics by many mesmers in the mesmer forums, multiple bug reports sent.

To explain to those who don’t know what I’m talking about, The Pledge when combined with Prismatic Understanding allows for the torch skill The Prestige to go down to about a 13s cool down while camping stealth. This enables the mesmer to effectively camp stealth for very long periods of time.

This is less of an issue on power builds as they don’t want to drop domination and duelling and to take it would mean losing PU and thus make it balanced again. The reason it’s working so well in PU condi is they’re taking illusions line anyway along with chaos for all the condition traits. Combine with dire and it’s very hard to kill them, however they don’t scale well when more people join the fray.

If you want to know how much of a difference it makes get a friend to use the “meta build” for PU condi mesmer and fight them, first when they have the prestige trait, then without it.

I’d like to get some stealth on my necro.

Jaha.2840:

Anyone who roams or 1v1s in WvW knows that you’re simply dead if you’re running a power build and encounter a condition build.

Wrong. I (solo) roam a lot with power builds and don’t die automatically, if i meet a condi build. And no, i don’t run away either. I fight them, and more often than not, I win.

Jaha.2840:

Power builds require 3 main stats for damage: Power, Precision, and Ferocity. Conditions require 2: Condition Damage and Condition Duration.

Some condition builds require precision too. And not all power builds require 3 offensive stats, because they can gain crits from traits or int sigill (remorseless ranger/powernecro/some warriorbuilds).

Jaha.2840:

This results in condition builds acquiring both incredible survivability and damage output from their cookie cutter gear sets.

Overall condition builds are less bursty than powerbuilds, especially if they are full dire (with the exception of burn guard and burn engi – the latter needs precision though) and they can be hardcountered in a way, which is impossible to achieve against power builds (massive cleanse/diamond skin – there is no similar countermechanic against direct dmg). This is one reason, why glassy condi builds (sinister/rampager) often does not work as well as zerk builds. Also survability is not only dependent on stats. Defensive mechanics are even more important, and some condi builds have to sacrifice those (trap ranger for example)

Jaha.2840:

Condition builds can then make double or more mistakes versus power builds, while power builds have to make even less mistakes than they do versus condition builds than they would versus other power builds.

If i eat a full shatter from a power mesmer, i’m dead. If the same happens against a condi mesmer, i simply press a button, and remove 90% of its dmg. If i get low against a condi ranger, i can kite/run away and wait for cooldowns. If i do the same against power ranger, his longbow will kill me. I could give similar examples for other classes too. Some powerbuilds are quite forgiving, some are not. The same is true for condibuilds. It just depends on the specific situation, not if it is a condi or power build.

Jaha.2840:

1 – Lower the strength of condition damage and/or duration, especially on certain conditions like Burning and Confusion.

The condition dmg itself is fine (burning and bleed could maybe need some adjustments, because the difference is too big). Application of a few skills/traits should be looked at though (mainly burning stacking).

Jaha.2840:

2 – Require condition damage to incorporate precision, ferocity, or both to force condition builds to balance their survivability similar to how power builds do.

As I already stated, condition builds have less burst (even less, if burning is nerfed) and sometimes less sustained dmg too, and can be hardcountered by cleanse and immunities. They need more survability to be able to compete with power builds. Otherwise there would be absolutely no reason to play condi builds.

Jaha.2840:

3 – Alter the stats of Dire. Dire is currently so overpowered. Imagine the power equivalent of Dire which would be gear with Power, Precision, Ferocity, Vitality, and Toughness with no reduction to their stat values, because Dire gives both maximum damage and survivability unlike any gear set in the entire game.

Dire does not give maximum dmg. Sinister does, which has the same defensive stats as zerker and is subpar for most classes/in most cases. This alone proves, that condition dmg alone is not superior to direct dmg.

Jaha.2840:

4 – Buff condition removal and/or reduction across the board. All traits, gear, utilities, and weapon skills that remove or reduce conditions can be near doubled in effectiveness and condition builds would still do very well.

It is already possible for some classes/builds to be almost immune against many condition builds. In groupfights conditions are already weak, due to the amount of aoe cleanse. If you buff cleanse massively across the board, how should a condibuild ever be able to kill somebody who is not afk?

Only thing that needs to be killed is stealth, killing those pu nab memsers is easy (i play necro) full sinister with traited/signets for condition transfer. they literally kill themselves

Like I stated before it is absolutely hilarious what changes are asked here of the dev’s. You play a specific aspect of one (of three) specific game modes and encounter a build that is over the top. Now all those poor soles flock into this thread and ask for “condi nerf” “equip nerfs” “stealth nerfs” “stealth disable” etc.

I have not read a single constructive suggestion concerning WvW-Roaming and how to balance this specific aspect (without breaking pve or pvp). Most of the changes demanded here would simple break multiple builds or condi alltogether.

It’s like asking for warrior-mobility-nerfs because he beats me in a race from one side of LA to the other.

PS: I wonder what a PvE player that really would like to play condi in PvE, but isn’t allowed because of zerk-meta, would say to this thread ^^ “Yeah betta nerf condi because it’s already not played in meta-pve.. so nothing would change there”

Starfall.6425:

I have not read a single constructive suggestion concerning WvW-Roaming and how to balance this specific aspect (without breaking pve or pvp). Most of the changes demanded here would simple break multiple builds or condi alltogether.

Apply reveal on the use of a skill/trait that applies a damaging condition to a player. The other option as I see it is to tone down how much conditioning a player can do from stealth. Right now condi/stealth builds get their cake (stealth) and get to eat it as well (damage without reveal).

bloodletting wolf.2837:

With your over 5k hours I would have hoped that you wouldn’t spout off about conditions only needing 2 stats since it is so untrue. You absolutely need precision but you will just ignore that part I’m sure. In the time that you have been complaining in this thread you could have come up with a counter. If you don’t believe there is one that is entirely on you. Now if you will excuse me I’m going to hunt some more Mesmers.

There are many condi builds that run just fine with either precision/cond dmg or just cond dmg. Duration is a fine bump for low cleanse fights, but most heavy condi application builds derive enough cond duration from food, runes and a handful of other options to forgo spec’ing it directly. In contrast, most crit builds must spec power (base damage), crit chance (at least most of the time) and ferocity (damage scaler). Then that damage has to cut through toughness.

This all runs contrary to the topic… some builds allow excellent damage output without procing a reveal. A good PU condi Mesmer or Trapper Thief can effectively damage players and remain unseen most of the fight. Roaming in T2 has effectively become a game of dodge the mesmers or roll one.

At the end of the day it’s Anet that’s killing roaming and nothing else.

- Perplex runes
- +/- 40%
- 73 seconds of stealth
- Stealth in general
- Dire
- Burning stacks
- Instant casts
- D/D or Diamond Skin

WvW is the dumping ground for all of PvE’s trash gear. Don’t expect any future balance in this arena (WvW in general or Roaming) as most of this stuff isn’t an issue in PvP so it simply won’t be addressed.

We as a Roaming community just need to except (atm at least) that it’s simply Casual Wars 2 out there and either embrace it or do PvP instead. The cynic inside me wonders if encouraging the pretty skilled roamers in WvW to do PvP instead isn’t actually a part of the issue here as well #ESports

At least the new maps don’t encourage small group play, oh wait…

It is a bit odd that GW2 is the only MMO I can think of where players that stealth don’ t lose significant movement speed and mobility. I am sure others exist but the vast majority make stealth slow and after an opening attack very difficult to reapply.

duillyn.2697:

At the end of the day it’s Anet that’s killing roaming and nothing else.

- Perplex runes

Nothing wrong with these runes. The issue is with how a specific profession can stack weapons skill, traits, and utility skills that stack too much confusion.

duillyn.2697:

At the end of the day it’s Anet that’s killing roaming and nothing else.

- +/- 40%

Possibly. Perhaps they need to make this food that is specific for each condition, and not make one food a catch all

duillyn.2697:

At the end of the day it’s Anet that’s killing roaming and nothing else.

- 73 seconds of stealth

That is the main issue in my opinion. Making it to easy to get close unseen, or get away. As well with the ability to attack from stealth when all cool downs are off, burn the CDs, then stealth for too much of the CD recharge of skills

duillyn.2697:

At the end of the day it’s Anet that’s killing roaming and nothing else.

- Stealth in general

A pointlessly redundant comment given that you already mentioned it

duillyn.2697:

At the end of the day it’s Anet that’s killing roaming and nothing else.

- Dire

Doubtful. I have seen to many damage breakdowns providing math that soldiers gear can equivalently match dire gear output with comparable builds.

Have some math disproving that?

duillyn.2697:

At the end of the day it’s Anet that’s killing roaming and nothing else.

- Burning stacks

Again, the condition as a whole is fine. It is counter productive to cry foul on the condition, when it is simply some specific over tuned skills or traits that are the problem.

If you want to realistically discuss the problems, perhaps it is best to do so in terms of the over tunes skills and not make knee jerk reaction, blanket statements, that are not applicable to all skills, utilities, and traits.

duillyn.2697:

At the end of the day it’s Anet that’s killing roaming and nothing else.

- Instant casts

Yeah, that can problematically limit counter play

duillyn.2697:

At the end of the day it’s Anet that’s killing roaming and nothing else.

- D/D or Diamond Skin

What is so wrong with it? You cannot do 2000 direct damage to an ele with 20,000 hp? (that’s a fairly generous amount to credit them for btw)

Straegen.2938:

It is a bit odd that GW2 is the only MMO I can think of where players that stealth don’ t lose significant movement speed and mobility. I am sure others exist but the vast majority make stealth slow and after an opening attack very difficult to reapply.

I think it’s because stealth cannot be used to cap points and is therefore regarded as a double-edged sword by a balancing team that has tunnel vision for PvP. In that arena, it works out very well, and since I assume that they know what they’re doing, I conclude that balancing there is their goal.

I know it’s been a while, but the new WvW borderland gives me hope that they plan to cease their streak of neglecting it. Perhaps they didn’t anticipate that it would really take off and thus kind of kitten it the first time around, then decided to go back to the drawing board instead of trying to patch up what existed. Hopefully, that means we get some answers to things like Ghost thieves.

Sviel.7493:

Straegen.2938:

It is a bit odd that GW2 is the only MMO I can think of where players that stealth don’ t lose significant movement speed and mobility. I am sure others exist but the vast majority make stealth slow and after an opening attack very difficult to reapply.

I think it’s because stealth cannot be used to cap points and is therefore regarded as a double-edged sword by a balancing team that has tunnel vision for PvP. In that arena, it works out very well, and since I assume that they know what they’re doing, I conclude that balancing there is their goal.

I know it’s been a while, but the new WvW borderland gives me hope that they plan to cease their streak of neglecting it. Perhaps they didn’t anticipate that it would really take off and thus kind of kitten it the first time around, then decided to go back to the drawing board instead of trying to patch up what existed. Hopefully, that means we get some answers to things like Ghost thieves.

Well the other thing with stealth is that I don’t think they ever expected people to be able to find ways to stealth for so long. The original design of stealth was so that it could be used as a sort of “time out” button for the squished classes like thieves and mesmers to reposition themselves when in a bad situation, as well as get the drop on them. That also explains why there are so few reveal skills in the game and why shadow refuge operates the way it does. But now stealth has gotten so many additional skills and the cap on it is so large people can stealth for large amounts of time, and the lack of ways to detect them never increased. The latest patch just dialed stealth up to a ten on the annoyance scale.

Then, yes I’m going to touch on thieves here, stealth created an illusion that the thief is in a good state as they can engage and disengage on a whim, causing them to be nerfed repeadetly because of it, but their other defensive options were not buffed. And now mesmers are the kings of stealth since they operate using phantasms and clones to do their damage, letting them sit in stealth until the right time to burst.

And then this compounds with conditions as you can just apply the condis then sit in stealth, and the other guy can’t really do anything. I mean yeah there is AoE, but you still don’t know if you’re hitting him, his general direction, or what his next action could be, and most AoE are on longer cooldown anyway.

You make a good point there. Stealth is so inherently powerful as a mechanic that it can make an otherwise lackluster class look too strong. Thus, thieves are nerfed to compensate for stealth (but it’s not the stealth parts that get nerfed!) and, as a result, they can no longer function without stealth.

Odokuro.5049:

If there wasn’t a problem with PU Mesmers, being imbalanced, you wouldn’t see SO many of them in WvW.

One of the things that I enjoy most out of play Guild Wars 2, is taking part in WvW activities, such as roaming or small group play. But as of late, it’s gotten more tiresome and boring than enjoyable, and refuse to join in on the zerg, and spam my 1 key…

I just wish that the Developers would look at these Condi-spam Stealth/Invis Bots and see that they need to be toned down so that other builds have a chance to go toe to toe with them, as it is now, it’s either join em and make a PU mesmer, ect. or run, and I know the 1%‘ers will come in and say, " I’m able to win just fine…" or the delusional “Pro” Mesmer who believes the class is, “Perfectly balanced” and “Fine as is”. Will come in gloating about their superior skill, and tell us all to L2P….

If there wasnt a problem with GWEN and power builds being imbalanced you wouldnt see so many of them in roaming either, as they would be much more prone to do team play instead, but right now they arent because veilbot/portalbot.

fix that and you fix the other stuff by default.

Sviel.7493:

You make a good point there. Stealth is so inherently powerful as a mechanic that it can make an otherwise lackluster class look too strong. Thus, thieves are nerfed to compensate for stealth (but it’s not the stealth parts that get nerfed!) and, as a result, they can no longer function without stealth.

Thieves weren’t nerfed to compensate for stealth, they were nerfed to compensate for ridiculous mobility and broken OP core design, stealth is a much bigger issue in WvW than tPvP, Anet balance on tPvP and barely give WvW a second glance.

Jaha.2840:

Mathematical truth isn’t required to prove the point.

No, but it certainly is the best way. It says a lot that folks are making a specific effort to avoid providing mathematical evidence though. It suggest to me that folks are making claims based on a lack of facts, therefore making their claims with no knowledge of whether or not they are remotely true, or feel this evidence counters the claims.

Jaha.2840:

Although, you are right that it applies to specific professions: Thief and Mesmer. All you have to do is be a somewhat experienced player and then run a power build 1v1 against a condition built mesmer or thief who knows what they’re doing and you’ll understand immediately. Stealth is balanced when used with power builds, but heavily imbalanced when used with condition builds because of the insane survivability from combining stealth, Dire, and survivability traits/skills (Example: Prismatic Understanding, Hide in Shadows, Chaos Armor, Blinding Dissipation).

I disagree when it comes to thieves, they are not very problematic for me at all. Mesmers, on the other hand, I feel need adjustment to specific traits or skills.

Jaha.2840:

Dire is still very overpowered, but perhaps it’s best to first focus on balancing thief and mesmer condition based skills, and leave other professions out, because stealth is balanced with power builds and shouldn’t have to be altered.

There is that claim about dire again. The one that specifically avoids adding evidence to support it.

-So if dire is so OP, why isn’t everyone using it?
-Why is it not used in all circumstances or situations?
-Why has no one offered any damage comparisons that support that?
-Why has no one disproven the damage comparisons already posted that are evidence against the claim your making?

zinkz.7045:

Sviel.7493:

You make a good point there. Stealth is so inherently powerful as a mechanic that it can make an otherwise lackluster class look too strong. Thus, thieves are nerfed to compensate for stealth (but it’s not the stealth parts that get nerfed!) and, as a result, they can no longer function without stealth.

Thieves weren’t nerfed to compensate for stealth, they were nerfed to compensate for ridiculous mobility and broken OP core design, stealth is a much bigger issue in WvW than tPvP, Anet balance on tPvP and barely give WvW a second glance.

Large part of it is the environment, specifically, map design. In PVP you often get cleaved, CCed, AOEd etc. regardless of stealth because there is less room to run away to, whereas in WVW you have an incredible choice of open spaces. Only way to balance it on this aspect would be to downscale entire WVW maps to the size of SPVP maps which will not happen because it would be way too much wark to do so but also, can you imagine 2 or 3 way map que battle in a space the size of clocktower for example ? it would be silly and completely unplayable from many perspectives.

Also, this is a team game, see upcoming druid spec …. just LOL !

I run a PU Mesmer condi build. It is not invincible in 1v1, you can still die.

A condi burn engi defeated me fairly easily. The engi’s aoe was so effective, my clones were just tickling him. Rather than running away, which I could of with all the new stealth, I stuck it out, got worn down and lost.

I also died to a nasty condi necro once. Signet of power just melted my hp so fast, I had no chance. I dropped in like 4 seconds.

On a side note, I notice that many of the players starting these threads to bash the new PU Mesmer always introduce themselves as a Thief. Go figure…

Saleen Jso.2645:

I run a PU Mesmer condi build. It is not invincible in 1v1, you can still die.

A condi burn engi defeated me fairly easily. The engi’s aoe was so effective, my clones were just tickling him. Rather than running away, which I could of with all the new stealth, I stuck it out, got worn down and lost.

I also died to a nasty condi necro once. Signet of power just melted my hp so fast, I had no chance. I dropped in like 4 seconds.

On a side note, I notice that many of the players starting these threads to bash the new PU Mesmer always introduce themselves as a Thief. Go figure…

So basicly, you’re saying that a condi PU mesmer isnt immortal. He can easily be killed by condi engineers (probably dire) and condi necros (probably dire too).

Yes, that sure makes this argument about… uh… conditions being strong… easier to understand.

But you are right of course. Condi thieves and condi mesmers are countered by condi anything else (especially condi mesmers and condi thieves). That’s part of the reason why stealth in combination with conditions is so aggravating. Because you cant see your opponent 70-100% of the time, you have to rely on damage over time – ie condi ticks. Direct damage will in no way suffice to kill them in the short time they are visible, they’ll just increase stealth to damage ratio until they can heal and pop up again. Thieves have full control over this, but little damage when stealthed. Mesmers have less control over this, but far more damage when stealthed. Either way is kitten and it pushes every other class to condi just as much.

TL;DR
Condis. Condis everywhere.

The thing is they’ve now nerfed PU because of all the idiots who didn’t take the time to figure out what was going on.

This will affect power builds more than condition builds. Sure condi PU will get its stealth toned down too but because the torch trait is still giving 2-3 times more cool down reduction than it should you’re not gonna see much change for that build.

What you will see is all the fotm power mesmers either sticking to mesmer condition or rolling condition ghost thief. Those are the real hideous class in WvW right now, can have 2 hiding on inner of a keep and there will be little to no tell and 2 can flip it before the swords come up.

apharma.3741:

The thing is they’ve now nerfed PU because of all the idiots who didn’t take the time to figure out what was going on.

This will affect power builds more than condition builds. Sure condi PU will get its stealth toned down too but because the torch trait is still giving 2-3 times more cool down reduction than it should you’re not gonna see much change for that build.

What you will see is all the fotm power mesmers either sticking to mesmer condition or rolling condition ghost thief. Those are the real hideous class in WvW right now, can have 2 hiding on inner of a keep and there will be little to no tell and 2 can flip it before the swords come up.

LoL
pu was buffed @ last patch
with 50% its a little better than pre patch

its the same like ele
the burning nerfs only revert it back to pre patch ( except vigor nerf )

blubberblasen.3901:

LoL
pu was buffed @ last patch
with 50% its a little better than pre patch

its the same like ele
the burning nerfs only revert it back to pre patch ( except vigor nerf )

Just how many power shatter players felt PU was defensive enough to take as opposed to the illusions line pre patch after the boons went from 3 to 5? That’s right almost no-one. When you had guaranteed protection, regen or aegis people did make that trade off for those boons but after nerf it became a junk trait.

So what build was also hated by roamers pre patch? PU cond except while MtD got a slight nerf they got buffs to confusion which is arguably stronger than torment. Additionally they massively buffed the torch trait cool down reduction for camping stealth which guess what, the condi build is doing.

Essentially they have nerfed the higher risk build and the lowest risk build is marginally nerfed. GG. Can’t wait to quote all these posts when people still cry about PU condi with a big told you so on top.

But don’t take my word on it, go into a private arena with a friend and play PU condition against them, first with the pledge then without it, see the difference.

I am glad that PU is being nerfed but IML every class should have access to reveal. CURRENTLY (pre HoT), only rangers and engies has access to reveal. So unless, you are one of them good luck finding a mes (let alone killing it)

Conditions on the other hand are beyond ridiculous. Burn and confusion (thx perplexity) is way too OP. IMO there should be a 1 sec window before you can be inflicted with a condition again.

A possible solution to the perma stealth problem is to set a max time limit on stealth. I say the maximum stealth duration should be 10 seconds. If the max is reach a 3 second reveal debuff is applied.

Also I think the problem with condition isn’t that it can do good burst damage but that players can be tanky at the same time. That’s just bad design. The Dire set needs to change so that Condi requires another stat to boost damage output like how Zerkers require Power Precision and Ferocity to maximize their burst. We should introduce another stat that affect condition damage so that it is impossible to be tanky and burst in condi.

Doon.2364:

A possible solution to the perma stealth problem is to set a max time limit on stealth. I say the maximum stealth duration should be 10 seconds. If the max is reach a 3 second reveal debuff is applied.

Also I think the problem with condition isn’t that it can do good burst damage but that players can be tanky at the same time. That’s just bad design. The Dire set needs to change so that Condi requires another stat to boost damage output like how Zerkers require Power Precision and Ferocity to maximize their burst. We should introduce another stat that affect condition damage so that it is impossible to be tanky and burst in condi.

The ghost thief plague is coming, prepare your stealth traps, it’s gonna be a rough one.

Fortunately we’re getting access to reveal with HoT and I can certainly see it being used A LOT in WvW where stealth has been a problem for 3 years. Taunt also works nicely on foes in stealth so a lot of classes are now getting counters in some ways.

I’m not a fan of dire stats but then I also accept that a lot of classes have conditions based on crits and the damage type is damage over time so they kinda need defence. I’m inclined to see how HoT mixes things up with what’s currently being added, maybe it will all get balanced out or maybe there’s a new abomination around the corner we haven’t thought of yet.

The trapper thief and ranger has not been as big of a deal so far to me since they have to get close and or can be ranged effectively. The condi application levels can be pretty impressive but so far only my zerk builds are struggling against them.

That said no class should be able to apply significant damage (direct or condi) without popping a reveal. None.

Thankfully PU has been nerfed to 50% and torch trait bug has been fixed. Now all the noobs roaming with mesmers for the uber cheesy way can go back to their main professions, and the true mesmers can keep with their true god mode builds without being demonized.

Ansau.7326:

Thankfully PU has been nerfed to 50% and torch trait bug has been fixed. Now all the noobs roaming with mesmers for the uber cheesy way can go back to their main professions, and the true mesmers can keep with their true god mode builds without being demonized.

Torch trait hasn’t been touched, it was a text change to clarify the cool down reduction. It turns out the torch trait really is supposed to reduce the cool down by 1.5s for each second you spend in stealth thereby promoting camping.

On our tier there is no such thing as WvW anymore… it is about 90% World v mesmers. You can’t walk out an exit anymore without running into a pack of 10 mesmers with a very rare spare thief or warrior in tail. Then you have the 50-60 man zergs verse the few of us who bother to even try anymore. Considering we can put barely 10 people on the map at primetime now (all the maps combined) I can say WvW is the biggest bunch of crap these days I have ever witnessed in any game I have played.

Fighting our opponents near 8 to 15 v 1 now and we are still medium population just like they are. We literally have more people who come into WvW and just craft then actually play WvW. Our numbers had been gaining before this huge mesmer stealth condi crap I can kill you , but you can never kill me crap filtered to our server. Now every kitten plays it as its easy mode against a low pop server.

BTW, when your population is so low the two classes who have to completely kitten themselves for anything other than hunting a mesmer kitten just doesn’t fly. We could all kitten ourselves for that and we still couldn’t make a dent in their numbers.

Come on Camelot Unchained, that game can’t come out fast enough!!!!

Why does Anet want us to keep using faceroll shatter builds… any attempt at deviating to something more fun gets nerfed. The nerf to PU is far too much.

You finally get around to fixing the trait for pistol bleeding and then nerf it before it even gets a chance to be tested… at least when you nerfed torment you gave it a day of testing before you did so.

Too many people crying because they get beat by a mesmer… what they do not realise is that mesmer skills are notorious for failing and half them don’t even do what they are supposed to do and half the traits don’t do what they are supposed to do either.

There was nothing wrong with stealth because half the time it didn’t work as it was supposed to. Veil now is a complete waste of time… they nerfed the time before and then with the PU nerf you cloak and uncloak in a second because it was never working in the first place. If you use the torch cloak and come out of it next to some ambient wildlife then you go into cool down… if a ranger is shooting at you as you cloak then you automatically come back out of cloak and back into cool down if you have any sort of reflection skill equipped.

As for conditions there are only 2 that are effective… confusion and torment… torment was nerfed so it is nowhere near as effective as before. Leaving confusion as the only real condition that does any sort of major damage… if you can’t clear two conditions then you have no right to be complaining on here about your own lack of skill.

Mesmers are the slowest runners… half the skills don’t work… things like arcane thievery takes so long to cast that it should come with a 6m cast time warning. Blink feels like it is completely random of whether it is going to work or not. Power builds were never very powerful to begin with but were nerfed all the same a while back… you can hit a warrior with full berz on a power build and do zero damage.

PU condi builds that do not rely on shatter take ages to finish a fight with but at least they were fun and well balanced but now they don’t work because of the PU nerf. Heaven forbid if you try to do something other than shatter.

A mesmer is slow, has no real power worth talking about against heavy armor classes, has less stealth than a thief, has less condition damage than a necro, and has notorious skill failure. There are times when I can fight a warrior, ranger, or ele and half my skills do not even work against them… while the other half work when they feel like it.

AND If you are still complaining about being beat by a mesmer then just remember that the easiest way to kill a mesmer is to target the real one and stop them moving. It is not that difficult.

Nymph of Meliai.6739:

Why does Anet want us to keep using faceroll shatter builds… any attempt at deviating to something more fun gets nerfed. The nerf to PU is far too much.

You finally get around to fixing the trait for pistol bleeding and then nerf it before it even gets a chance to be tested… at least when you nerfed torment you gave it a day of testing before you did so.

Too many people crying because they get beat by a mesmer… what they do not realise is that mesmer skills are notorious for failing and half them don’t even do what they are supposed to do and half the traits don’t do what they are supposed to do either.

There was nothing wrong with stealth because half the time it didn’t work as it was supposed to. Veil now is a complete waste of time… they nerfed the time before and then with the PU nerf you cloak and uncloak in a second because it was never working in the first place. If you use the torch cloak and come out of it next to some ambient wildlife then you go into cool down… if a ranger is shooting at you as you cloak then you automatically come back out of cloak and back into cool down if you have any sort of reflection skill equipped.

As for conditions there are only 2 that are effective… confusion and torment… torment was nerfed so it is nowhere near as effective as before. Leaving confusion as the only real condition that does any sort of major damage… if you can’t clear two conditions then you have no right to be complaining on here about your own lack of skill.

Mesmers are the slowest runners… half the skills don’t work… things like arcane thievery takes so long to cast that it should come with a 6m cast time warning. Blink feels like it is completely random of whether it is going to work or not. Power builds were never very powerful to begin with but were nerfed all the same a while back… you can hit a warrior with full berz on a power build and do zero damage.

PU condi builds that do not rely on shatter take ages to finish a fight with but at least they were fun and well balanced but now they don’t work because of the PU nerf. Heaven forbid if you try to do something other than shatter.

A mesmer is slow, has no real power worth talking about against heavy armor classes, has less stealth than a thief, has less condition damage than a necro, and has notorious skill failure. There are times when I can fight a warrior, ranger, or ele and half my skills do not even work against them… while the other half work when they feel like it.

AND If you are still complaining about being beat by a mesmer then just remember that the easiest way to kill a mesmer is to target the real one and stop them moving. It is not that difficult.

I’m not exactly on board with the QQ train as it’s pretty much wrecked two classes I very much enjoy but you make it seem like Mesmers are hard to play. There is a reason why there was a sudden upsurge of condition mesmers and it’s not because they are hard to play with broken skills. Their ability to apply confusion en masse, combined with the stupid way condition removal works means that sometimes a player who is doing the correct thing/built well (cleanses) can still be punished and downed. That is annoying as all get out and rightly so because if you can’t do the right thing in a situation and deal with it then… how do you beat it? If it was up to me, I’d leave Mesmers as they are and revamp the way conditions are dealt with but that’s neither here nor there.

It is true that there are many more mesmers now, but on the flip side, it also shows how many lvl 80 vet player ascended geared shelved mesmers there were, and that is a large number indeed and they were shelved for good reasons.

Memers still need adjustments and buffs outside of WVW and SPVP, especially condi, in any large scale combat situations and in any sort of competetive PVE. the 2 mesmer niches only go so far to playing a mesmer across the board.

I’d suspect not as many mesmers as you think were shelved. You could make a mesmer in about 3 minutes with books to level up from 20 to 80 and about 20 gold, if that, to equip yourself decently. 1-20 from exp scroll that gives you automatic 20 levels and then 60 books which you can get easily from PvP or WvW. Over time I have stacks of these and I’m not even close to hardcore.

Now that isn’t to say mesmers didn’t suck before, they did. ANET has a bad habit of making most class builds suck and only have 1 to 3 total WvW builds from all the classes combined that actually are playable on an even level playing field.

Nymph of Meliai.6739:

Why does Anet want us to keep using faceroll shatter builds… any attempt at deviating to something more fun gets nerfed. The nerf to PU is far too much.

You finally get around to fixing the trait for pistol bleeding and then nerf it before it even gets a chance to be tested… at least when you nerfed torment you gave it a day of testing before you did so.

Too many people crying because they get beat by a mesmer… what they do not realise is that mesmer skills are notorious for failing and half them don’t even do what they are supposed to do and half the traits don’t do what they are supposed to do either.

There was nothing wrong with stealth because half the time it didn’t work as it was supposed to. Veil now is a complete waste of time… they nerfed the time before and then with the PU nerf you cloak and uncloak in a second because it was never working in the first place. If you use the torch cloak and come out of it next to some ambient wildlife then you go into cool down… if a ranger is shooting at you as you cloak then you automatically come back out of cloak and back into cool down if you have any sort of reflection skill equipped.

As for conditions there are only 2 that are effective… confusion and torment… torment was nerfed so it is nowhere near as effective as before. Leaving confusion as the only real condition that does any sort of major damage… if you can’t clear two conditions then you have no right to be complaining on here about your own lack of skill.

Mesmers are the slowest runners… half the skills don’t work… things like arcane thievery takes so long to cast that it should come with a 6m cast time warning. Blink feels like it is completely random of whether it is going to work or not. Power builds were never very powerful to begin with but were nerfed all the same a while back… you can hit a warrior with full berz on a power build and do zero damage.

PU condi builds that do not rely on shatter take ages to finish a fight with but at least they were fun and well balanced but now they don’t work because of the PU nerf. Heaven forbid if you try to do something other than shatter.

A mesmer is slow, has no real power worth talking about against heavy armor classes, has less stealth than a thief, has less condition damage than a necro, and has notorious skill failure. There are times when I can fight a warrior, ranger, or ele and half my skills do not even work against them… while the other half work when they feel like it.

AND If you are still complaining about being beat by a mesmer then just remember that the easiest way to kill a mesmer is to target the real one and stop them moving. It is not that difficult.

Have a mesmer and to be quite honest can’t really remember more than one or two issues ever coming up, certainly nothing anywhere near what you are saying. I quite think you are telling highly tall tales here or you have the absolute worst luck of everyone else COMBINED who played/is playing mesmer.

More than likely you noticed you couldn’t actually use your nose and win now and heaven forbid you actually have to hit a few key buttons in order to still faceroll people and you just can’t do it.

I think you misunderstand my post…. I play all the time… I can faceroll just about every other class using a build that relies on shattering… skilled players will still defeat that – I defeat other mesmers all the time who use it… sometimes they get lucky but I win more times than I lose. I don’t even try and target them anymore because it makes it too easy and I would sooner lose a few fights and have a bit of fun.

My point is that if you try and do anything other than shatter you are penalized.

And perhaps I do have the worst luck or perhaps as someone who only plays a mesmer, I just play too much and notice these things over the day rather than just an hour now and again when my guild asks me to re-roll as a mesmer.

I am nowhere near the most skilled fighter in this game… I am a little above average at best. Yet, I have none of the problems killing a mesmer that you ppl qqing here seem to have.

You’re wasting your breath Nymph. The bad players will keep screaming nerf until what they want gets nerfed then move on to the next spec they have a problem with and scream about that.

Tongku.5326:

It is true that there are many more mesmers now, but on the flip side, it also shows how many lvl 80 vet player ascended geared shelved mesmers there were, and that is a large number indeed and they were shelved for good reasons.

Memers still need adjustments and buffs outside of WVW and SPVP, especially condi, in any large scale combat situations and in any sort of competetive PVE. the 2 mesmer niches only go so far to playing a mesmer across the board.

A lot of uninformed assumption here.

I have 5-6 sets of light, medium, and heavy ascended armor, and enough tomes of knowledge to make twelve characters to level 80 any moment I feel like it.

Your jumping to the conclusion that there is some mythical community out there just drooling at the mouth to play a specific profession. If they want to play it, they will. Strikes me as more likely that all the bandwagoners who want to play the easiest or trolliest builds simply use what they perceive as esiest to play or troll with rather then the mythical idea of the secret mesmer community hiding in the shadows, just waiting for a reason to play.

dancingmonkey.4902:

Tongku.5326:

It is true that there are many more mesmers now, but on the flip side, it also shows how many lvl 80 vet player ascended geared shelved mesmers there were, and that is a large number indeed and they were shelved for good reasons.

Memers still need adjustments and buffs outside of WVW and SPVP, especially condi, in any large scale combat situations and in any sort of competetive PVE. the 2 mesmer niches only go so far to playing a mesmer across the board.

A lot of uninformed assumption here.

I have 5-6 sets of light, medium, and heavy ascended armor, and enough tomes of knowledge to make twelve characters to level 80 any moment I feel like it.

Your jumping to the conclusion that there is some mythical community out there just drooling at the mouth to play a specific profession. If they want to play it, they will. Strikes me as more likely that all the bandwagoners who want to play the easiest or trolliest builds simply use what they perceive as esiest to play or troll with rather then the mythical idea of the secret mesmer community hiding in the shadows, just waiting for a reason to play.

You’re also assuming the counter point to this with just as little evidence and proof. Mesmer in its current state is terrible for PvE outside of being a troop transport for record runs. There is no reason to play it other than for fun.
In PvP it requires a lot of team practise and for the team to in some part support it through cleanses as they often don’t have any and coordinate with the portal. That can be a real game changer.

In WvW for the Zerg we are portal/veil bots with very poor tagging options so we don’t even get the amount of loot the GWEN classes do. Some people like to roam on power builds but unless you have a lot of mobility (mostly XY axis) or stealth then it can be a very painful and worthless experience. Mesmer doesn’t have a lot of XY speed without having to use a focus and the stealth got gutted without using PU and the torch trait.

So tell me, if you don’t want to play PU condition mesmer, why play Mesmer in WvW when you would be more effective on any other class?

Play ranger with full zerker gear buffs food con cleaner….everything….
and you will experience GREAT duels and fights against overpowered chars..allmost all chars actually…but specially mesmers and thieves …you will fight hard and long time time ….
………………….between 1 to 5 seconds…………..and stealth finisher …….yeyyyyyyyy

so saying condi ruins the game ….nooooooo no no no no…you just dont do any duels.
and avoid anything that comes in sight.. my favorit attack/defense buttom is alt/4..

one lesson learned here is dont make zerker ranger or any other ranger chars for that sake and dont waste time creating zerkergear …

There’s a large group of people that switch to whichever class is most overpowered at the moment.

Didn’t think this was a mystery

LetoII.3782:

There’s a large group of people that switch to whichever class is most overpowered at the moment.

Didn’t think this was a mystery

Or they switch to whatever people are having trouble dealing with.

Remember when ranger rapid fire got buffed and we saw an increase in rangers till everyone and their mum brought reflects then slowly learnt to bash em in the face till they die?

Nymph of Meliai.6739:

I am nowhere near the most skilled fighter in this game… I am a little above average at best. Yet, I have none of the problems killing a mesmer that you ppl qqing here seem to have.

Maybe I’m missing something but are you saying you as a Mesmer have no issues killing mesmers and claiming that shatter builds take less skill than condition ones?

apharma.3741:

dancingmonkey.4902:

Tongku.5326:

It is true that there are many more mesmers now, but on the flip side, it also shows how many lvl 80 vet player ascended geared shelved mesmers there were, and that is a large number indeed and they were shelved for good reasons.

Memers still need adjustments and buffs outside of WVW and SPVP, especially condi, in any large scale combat situations and in any sort of competetive PVE. the 2 mesmer niches only go so far to playing a mesmer across the board.

A lot of uninformed assumption here.

I have 5-6 sets of light, medium, and heavy ascended armor, and enough tomes of knowledge to make twelve characters to level 80 any moment I feel like it.

Your jumping to the conclusion that there is some mythical community out there just drooling at the mouth to play a specific profession. If they want to play it, they will. Strikes me as more likely that all the bandwagoners who want to play the easiest or trolliest builds simply use what they perceive as esiest to play or troll with rather then the mythical idea of the secret mesmer community hiding in the shadows, just waiting for a reason to play.

You’re also assuming the counter point to this with just as little evidence and proof. Mesmer in its current state is terrible for PvE outside of being a troop transport for record runs. There is no reason to play it other than for fun.
In PvP it requires a lot of team practise and for the team to in some part support it through cleanses as they often don’t have any and coordinate with the portal. That can be a real game changer.

In WvW for the Zerg we are portal/veil bots with very poor tagging options so we don’t even get the amount of loot the GWEN classes do. Some people like to roam on power builds but unless you have a lot of mobility (mostly XY axis) or stealth then it can be a very painful and worthless experience. Mesmer doesn’t have a lot of XY speed without having to use a focus and the stealth got gutted without using PU and the torch trait.

So tell me, if you don’t want to play PU condition mesmer, why play Mesmer in WvW when you would be more effective on any other class?

No, actually I made no assumptions. The post I quoted made specific declarative statement. All I did what state how things strike me or how I see them, as well as adding in my experiences. You seem to believe I owe you some evidence or proof for sharing how I did something or sharing my opinion. That doesn’t strike me as a reasonable expectation.

That aside, I disagree with a fair bit of your complaints. Staff is great for tagging options. Your complaints about tagging or mobility can be applied to 90% of builds on all professions.

You asked "if you don’t want to play PU condition mesmer, why play Mesmer in WvW when you would be more effective on any other class? "

WellI kind of felt the answer to that was self evident but the most direct answer is FUN. This is a game, and that is what I play it for. And really there is a scond aspect to your question. Simply because you would be more effective on another professions, doesn’t mean myself or others would. I have fun being wanted. Commanders request my talents for viels, portals, stealth, time warp, and null field is ideal for large force clashes. If you are incapable in being valued in your abilities and play on a mesmer, that is on you, it is probably not a good idea to assume that applies to everyone, as your questions implication suggest.

First off: I agree some combinations of stealth and condition are overpowered. For example PU confusion mesmers, trapper rangers… can’t be countered unless you build your whole spec around countering them (I sometimes run a shout guardian with trooper runes for a lot of condition removal). And even then you can’t kill them 1v1.

However! The right course to balance this is not to nerf either a) stealth, b) conditions, c) certain skills or traits that apply conditions. To achieve balance there’d need to be a thorough investigation into what precisely is “overpowered” in relation to condition damage, stealth, traits, skills, sigils, runes…

Tuning down conditions only will make certain skills of specific classes underpowered. Tuning down stealth will hurt classes and builds that use stealth without conditions. Tuning down skills might nerf certain builds too hard, while still allowing others to be overpowered.

A good balancer will notice that he has to check on each of the points in this complex system, i.e. a holistic approach. I however, am not the one responsible for this, but merely an observer. So I really hope the developers will see the reason behind such an approach, and instead of ignoring the problem or handling it in the wrong way, consider it as the solution.