Guild Wars 2

Xelnok.2397:

Umm, if you take the damage away from confusion it won’t force inaction…. So then it would be a 0 purpose condition

Edit, person above me just covered it

Exactly. Confusion was terribly overnerfed in spvp, and you can tell because the damage and duration is so low that no one cares about it. The stacks last maybe 4 seconds even when traited for extra duration. Completely bad players spam skills with 8 stacks up with little to no consequence.

I simply cannot believe how utterly ignorant some people are.

1. You can COMPLETELY ignore confusion as long as you’re not low on health and don’t have more than 3 stacks on you. Unless you manage to spam 10 skills in 3 seconds, that is.

2. If you have more confusion on you, just remove it OR don’t use a skill for those few seconds. No, you will NOT die because you just run and don’t smash buttons. In fact, a conditon mesmer can NOT do enough damage to kill you in 5 seconds. So if you have 6 or even 8 stacks of confusion on you, just wait for that time and then smash the mesmer’s face to the ground.

3. If it’s Xvs1 and you die, it’s not really surprising. In fact, if you ARE surprised that you lose a Xvs1, then it’s probably YOU who’s being overpowered. Or you just happen to always encounter bad players.

4. If it’s XvsX, then it matters even less if one or two of the guys in a group don’t smash buttons for 3-5 seconds.

Seriously, whole classes are considered completely useless until someone finds out how they actually can be useful. Then this person posts his build and fancy videos of his best moments. More people begin playing this build, with more or less success. People get killed by them and they cry for nerfs. Then it gets nerfed and the class is again considered useless. In the meanwhile, someone found a good way to play that other useless class. People cry for nerfs again. Then the same with the next class, and so on. At some point, we’re back to the first class that was nerfed in my example. Someone will find a way to play it well (maybe even due to the other classes being nerfed in the meanwhile haha) and people will claim that it’s OP. In the end, the only difference between classes will be their name and skins. And even then I’m not sure if not someone would show up on the forum and cry because the 100dmg-autoattack killed his 1000HP-character faster than his own 100dmg-autoattack killed the other 1000HP-character; just because exactly during this epic fight the sun appeared from behind a cloud, shined through the window and made him sneeze; so for a second he couldn’t keep smashing the button like a madman. Nerf the sun please; it’s so OP!!1!!!one!!eleven!!!

Please note, this is strictly from a WvW perspective!

A lot of the issues that stem from confusion is that people like their skill rotations, CD spam, and such. If you try to do the exact same thing vs. everyone and expect it to be successful, then you’ll be very frustrated.

If you actually think about what you’re using and when, confusion as a whole loses a lot of its strength.

For example, there are 2 Mesmer confusion builds that I will run. Each build is designed for a specific purpose, and conversely, there are different counter for each.

Glamour Build

• Designed to surf/bust zergs
• Stacks confusions by targetted AoE
• Very, very strong in groups of 4+ mesmers, can use/abuse (point of view) Focus 4 to stack additional confusion.
• Susceptible to in your face attackers, CC. Lack of clones make these guys much easier to kill than the bombers shown below.
• Held back by long cooldowns.

Confusion Bomber

• Stacks confusion by using clones
• Designed for smaller scale fights, 1v3 fairly easily, but still countered by typical mesmer counters
• Susceptible to AoE, large scale fights (No clones, no confusion)
• Inherently optimized traits
• Resistant to most thieves, quite spectacularly so, actually.
• Hard countered by condition Necromancers
• Hard countered by anyone who knows how to properly dodge, really.
• Not as cooldown dependent, still isn’t worthless when big skills are on CD.

Overall Counters

• Don’t spam skills. God forbid you don’t kill someone facerolling on your keyboard. You aren’t optimally playing your class if you are anyway.
• You should be able to recognize the type of Mesmer you’re fighting against, and play accordingly.
• Run Cleanse… no really. Conditions as a whole are incredibly strong because no one runs cleanse. Confusion abuses the fact that no one really wants to change their builds or playstyle.

Sorry, no comments on engineers, as I don’t really play them.

My Hammer Warrior rofl-stomps a lot of Mesmers. The kit itself does that. In addition to that though, I can pick a real Mesmer out of its clones, which takes away from a lot of the Mesmer’s supposed OP-ness.

TL/DR : L2P (couldn’t resist)

Notice how only mesmers are trying to argue that confusion is not overpowered and even some unbiased mesmers agree it is overpowered.

Oozo.7856:

Only 1-2K? Try over 3K with 8 stacks. And it triggers off of completely kitten things. I take confusion damage when I dodge roll since I have a trait that heals on dodge. I take confusion damage while channeling invulnerability. I take confusion damage channeling block. Sometimes I take confusion damage when I do nothing at all.

It needs a total redesign from the ground up.

You got kind of a good point they should make dodging make confusion dmg go off this would add a lot of counter play to the high dodge bunker build. At the same time they should give confusion to the low dodge class War maybe Guardian give them a chase to make up for lack of mobility.

fishergrip.4082:

Notice how only mesmers are trying to argue that confusion is not overpowered and even some unbiased mesmers agree it is overpowered.

Your opinion, mine is that the unbiased mesmers are the ones saying it’s not overpowered.

Mesmer confusion is a cheese build, sorta like d/d backstab thieves, or 100b warriors. These are cheese builds designed to easily win against bad players or those who don’t know how to counter them.

My experience with a confusion memser is essentially what has been repeated here. Bad players will blow themselves up, good players will survive and are much harder to kill. In full rabid gear, essentially the only noteworthy damage that comes out of a confusion mesmer IS confusion. I’ve seen plenty of smart hunters, guardians, thieves, ect just cleanse it off them, forcing me to reapply it. Cry of frustration has a fairly long cooldown even when specced 30 into illusion

fishergrip.4082:

Notice how only mesmers are trying to argue that confusion is not overpowered and even some unbiased mesmers agree it is overpowered.

Nice generalization

My mes is only level 52 (53?) and I do not use a confusion build. I just happen to disagree, as well as others, and it cant be explained away in its entirety with generalizations.

fishergrip.4082:

Notice how only mesmers are trying to argue that confusion is not overpowered and even some unbiased mesmers agree it is overpowered.

I fail to see the contribution this post has to a discussion.

Mesmers argue it’s not overpowered because we’ve played this class for months and know the reason why the condition exists and how to best use it.

Think about what the build does. My hammer warrior swings his hammer for about 0.7-1.5k damage everytime he connects with his hammer. Add to that his utility (1k shout heals, condition removal, group cc), and low cooldowns he serves his purpose as a tanky, low-medium-DPS, cc-bot.

The Glamour Mesmer has 1-2k damage (conditional) but at the same times does boon removal, feedback, support areas. He serves his purpose as medium-DPS support.

The Bomber has 2-4k damage (conditional) and serves almost no support to the group outside of a non-offensive (no blind/confusing) Null Field. Its purpose is Tanky medium-high-DPS, minimal support. Notice the trade-off!

So now look at the class you play, perhaps it’s designed as High-DPS glass cannon. Confusion is pretty much a hard counter to that.

For all the zerglings, you have no input on this discussion. Oozo is 100% right, confusion as it currently stands is hands down the most OP thing in small scale fighting. There are many small groups that use it as an absolute crutch. There is nothing you are going to do to avoid a 3 clone shatter of confusion stacks, it’s coming out of an invis with a roll to decoy bomb, and your group is sucking it up unless you get a lucky dodge roll….at which time you are stuck with your hand in your pocket, while their burst dps drops 1 or 2 people….completely throwing the fight out of balance. That’s why it was nerfed in sPvP, and why don’t don’t copy these over to WvW is beyond me.

I get their intention with the confusion skill, but as it stands, it’s a guaranteed I-Win button in small group fights.

Archer.1658:

Oozo.7856:

Archer.1658:

To sum up:

This thread is now about how Oozo got destroyed by a confusion mesmer and now he feels its justified nerfing it based off that. Awesome, while we’re at it, nerf guardian heals, nerf any classes burst damage and removal mesmers and instill clown as a profession.

One half projection and the other half strawman arguments. Well done.

You feel that nerfing it is justified based on what? The amount of damage it does? Im not getting this. Majority of people have said its a L2P issue, yet you insist it is not. It’s very clear you are upset that you lost to a confusion mesmer or engineer or w/e confusion spec profession that apparently demoralized you to continue this crusade in trying to nerf confusion. Again, if you want confusion nerfed, then here are the terms. Nerf guardian healing by x% and burst damage on all professions by x% to be fair. Considering these are Op as well.

I know your post is in repose to Oozo but please allow me answer this for you.

It needs a nerf because Anet never intended it to hit so hard in WvW. The reason you have two different multiplier for Spvp and WvW is to compensate for slow attacking pve mobs thus doing 100% more damage than Spvp. This is fine from a pve standpoint.
From a WvW standpoint, the damage is too high.

They need to push the Spvp build out to WvW so everyone is playing on the same rule sets.

Thief CnD does less damage in Spvp than WvW. Guardian save yourselves is on a lower duration in Spvp than WvW. And so on. This all need to be push into WvW build.

Lol, I just love the fact that people assume that if you get hit with a confusion tick you’re a bad player.

How bout them glass houses eh?

skupuz.6940:

Archer.1658:

Oozo.7856:

Archer.1658:

To sum up:

This thread is now about how Oozo got destroyed by a confusion mesmer and now he feels its justified nerfing it based off that. Awesome, while we’re at it, nerf guardian heals, nerf any classes burst damage and removal mesmers and instill clown as a profession.

One half projection and the other half strawman arguments. Well done.

You feel that nerfing it is justified based on what? The amount of damage it does? Im not getting this. Majority of people have said its a L2P issue, yet you insist it is not. It’s very clear you are upset that you lost to a confusion mesmer or engineer or w/e confusion spec profession that apparently demoralized you to continue this crusade in trying to nerf confusion. Again, if you want confusion nerfed, then here are the terms. Nerf guardian healing by x% and burst damage on all professions by x% to be fair. Considering these are Op as well.

I know your post is in repose to Oozo but please allow me answer this for you.

It needs a nerf because Anet never intended it to hit so hard in WvW. The reason you have two different multiplier for Spvp and WvW is to compensate for slow attacking pve mobs thus doing 100% more damage than Spvp. This is fine from a pve standpoint.
From a WvW standpoint, the damage is too high.

They need to push the Spvp build out to WvW so everyone is playing on the same rule sets.

Thief CnD does less damage in Spvp than WvW. Guardian save yourselves is on a lower duration in Spvp than WvW. And so on. This all needs to be push into WvW build.

They’ve kind of handcuffed themselves by having WvW and PvE work under the same rulesets. Not sure if it is something easy to fix or something hard to fix but WvW is a PVP zone and should be treated as such.

The bottom line is that mesmers in WvW are benefitting from a PvE buff that PvP players in sPvP do not have. That goes for the other classes working from different rules as well. Either the damage is balanced in WvW, balanced in sPvP, or balanced somewhere in between. It’s actually kind of insulting to WvW PvP players that there is such a huge difference between the two.

And just to get on the other side of this for a bit. I think it sucks for mesmers when the stack of conditions they have built up gets removed by my passive condition removal. Is that skill when that happens? No, but it might look like skill from a mesmer’s side of the fight. “Wow, that guy immediately removed my 6 stack of confusion, he must be good!” Heh.

However, that’s a more general problem with this game: all or nothing damage based on RNG. That seems to be a core component of the game though.

purpleskies.3274:

silvershadez.8421:

Also the elementalist argument is invalid. We all know Eles have an ridiculous amount of condition cleansers. I personally play condition engineer and lately alot of condition necromancer and i have a hard time with eles too, even without confusion. Try to argue about this with another prof viewpoint. Alot of profs have less to almost no conditionremovals if they don’t heavily trait for it. And since we can get some ridiculous high condition duration in WvW mesmers can maintain 5+ stacks of confusion all the time.

-A guardian can easily cure conditions from their heal and weapons as well and has many light combo fields which cure (combo fields are powerful but few people use them).
-A necro can cure conditions or send them to an opponent or convert them into buffs. Their heal is better with more conditions.
-An engineer can use elixir gun which has the 5 ability which cures conditions, toss elixir r, elixir c to convert conditions and toss elixir c to cure, antidotes from med kit or healing turret. Super elixir, toss elixir r and u also make light fields which cure conditions. They also can use elixir gun to cure allies, and their toss skills listed cure allies as well.

On top of that 1 of any of the 4 can cure an allies easily as well, if you work together.

Untraited the ele/engineer/necro/guardian have the best and most access to cures. If you trait these become even better at curing but untraited they are very strong already. The other professions have access to cures but are a bit more limited outside of specing, eating or gearing, which is a weakness of the more offensive classes of mesmer/thief/ranger/warrior. But even those all have utilities that can cure and some even have condition removal built into their heals.

There is also food, runes and sigils that reduce condition duration/transfer conditions/remove conditions which everyone has access to.

Not anyone traits for heavy condition removal and the engineer lacks it without those investments. Elixir gun is crap so why should I waste a utility slot for 1 condi cleanser every 20 sec? The engineer is allready a tough class to play why should I gimp myself even more? And even if I bring all those cleansers there is still a chance it will cleanse the wrong condition / you catch me when I’m out of cleansers.

I wonder why you even bring condition cleanser as a valid argument as you can easily reaplly 4-8 confusion stacks as a mesmer without too much effort. Shatters aren’t your only source of stacking them you know?

Any good conditionspec will watch out for conditioncleanse abilities and keep their key conditions for after the enemy blew them up. Even an elementalist with almost infinite cleanse possibilities offers a timewindow where he can’t cleanse anything.
With your logic he just should wait out until his cleanses come avaiable again before he starts doing anything…

And no confusion doesn’t really hurt those key spammers, it hurts those classes that attack fast/produce multiple actions with 1 single button press. The 100 nades medkit button with 4 ticks for 1 key press was just 1 example. There are sure more.

I don’t think ANet wanted confusion to be a much stronger stun which penalices you even more then a regular stun/daze.

I’ll stop argueing here as I don’t see this going into any direction. Mesmers will say leave it as it is no matter what kind of arguments I can bring. I just dare you to play against those named mesmers with another class. I think this would greatly help you understand.

Unless the mesmer is a glamour build, which are very very rare, the only way for someone to apply confusion is through shatters, which have a longish cool down.

Oozo.7856:

skupuz.6940:

Archer.1658:

Oozo.7856:

Archer.1658:

To sum up:

This thread is now about how Oozo got destroyed by a confusion mesmer and now he feels its justified nerfing it based off that. Awesome, while we’re at it, nerf guardian heals, nerf any classes burst damage and removal mesmers and instill clown as a profession.

One half projection and the other half strawman arguments. Well done.

You feel that nerfing it is justified based on what? The amount of damage it does? Im not getting this. Majority of people have said its a L2P issue, yet you insist it is not. It’s very clear you are upset that you lost to a confusion mesmer or engineer or w/e confusion spec profession that apparently demoralized you to continue this crusade in trying to nerf confusion. Again, if you want confusion nerfed, then here are the terms. Nerf guardian healing by x% and burst damage on all professions by x% to be fair. Considering these are Op as well.

I know your post is in repose to Oozo but please allow me answer this for you.

It needs a nerf because Anet never intended it to hit so hard in WvW. The reason you have two different multiplier for Spvp and WvW is to compensate for slow attacking pve mobs thus doing 100% more damage than Spvp. This is fine from a pve standpoint.
From a WvW standpoint, the damage is too high.

They need to push the Spvp build out to WvW so everyone is playing on the same rule sets.

Thief CnD does less damage in Spvp than WvW. Guardian save yourselves is on a lower duration in Spvp than WvW. And so on. This all needs to be push into WvW build.

They’ve kind of handcuffed themselves by having WvW and PvE work under the same rulesets. Not sure if it is something easy to fix or something hard to fix but WvW is a PVP zone and should be treated as such.

The bottom line is that mesmers in WvW are benefitting from a PvE buff that PvP players in sPvP do not have. That goes for the other classes working from different rules as well. Either the damage is balanced in WvW, balanced in sPvP, or balanced somewhere in between. It’s actually kind of insulting to WvW PvP players that there is such a huge difference between the two.

The fact of the matter is that I play WvW simply for the fact that it isn’t sPvP, and I’m sure there are plenty of other players out there with a similar mentality. TBH though I would have to agree that damage is most likely balanced somewhere in between WvW and sPvP. As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread Confusion is next to useless in sPvP. It simply doesn’t have the duration or oomf behind it for other players to even care if they have it on them. In addition if you nerf confusion damage you have to give mesmers something else, otherwise we are more or less forced into playing Power shatter / Phantasm builds. I enjoy being able to have a bit of variety.

Man im getting so tired of seeing the same pattern in every single MMO. Some good player is able to roll people with a particular spec and posts a video of it and thus the tears start flowing and the devs eventually nerf (usually overnerf) the class/spec in question. Rinse, repeat for a while and you have PvP similar to WoW – homogenized to the max, every class can do everything. Then these same whiners will cry epic oceans of tears over how they are no longer a unique snowflake that specialized in X because everyone can do X now.

Please try to avoid knee jerk reactions to getting killed a few times by something you dont fully understand how to deal with yet. You may eventually get your way but players like you are the source of homogenization in MMO PvP, and you may not like the end result once you get there. Why not try to play the class/spec in question to understand its weaknesses? Do me a favor and go try to play a confusion spec mesmer in WvW. Let me know how useless you feel when you come across a player that negates your entire spec by NOT PRESSING BUTTONS for the few seconds your confusion stacks are up. Then go to SPvP and let me know how useless you feel when your confusion does such pitiful damage with such short duration that it can be ignored entirely.

Dat Thread.

Serious l2p issue here

Arguing that confusion is outta whack right now is a moot point. Either your a moron and you really don’t see it or you don’t want to stop facerolling. This is coming from a mesmer. I have run the confusion builds, its extremely easy with little to no setup.. Hopefully Anet gets off their butt and starts tweaking it.

Tiglie.5834:

For all the zerglings, you have no input on this discussion. Oozo is 100% right, confusion as it currently stands is hands down the most OP thing in small scale fighting. There are many small groups that use it as an absolute crutch. There is nothing you are going to do to avoid a 3 clone shatter of confusion stacks, it’s coming out of an invis with a roll to decoy bomb, and your group is sucking it up unless you get a lucky dodge roll….at which time you are stuck with your hand in your pocket, while their burst dps drops 1 or 2 people….completely throwing the fight out of balance. That’s why it was nerfed in sPvP, and why don’t don’t copy these over to WvW is beyond me.

I get their intention with the confusion skill, but as it stands, it’s a guaranteed I-Win button in small group fights.

So, instead of changing your group composition to better deal with confusion it should simply be nerfed… To say that it’s being used as a crutch is a bit much as well, Simply because your roaming small man group isn’t using one, and please don’t say it’s because we don’t like cheesey tactics etc etc. Besides stealth/culling make lots of things in this game near impossible to deal with. Run some thieves simply dedicated to locating and blowing the mesmer up.

silvershadez.8421:

purpleskies.3274:

silvershadez.8421:

Also the elementalist argument is invalid. We all know Eles have an ridiculous amount of condition cleansers. I personally play condition engineer and lately alot of condition necromancer and i have a hard time with eles too, even without confusion. Try to argue about this with another prof viewpoint. Alot of profs have less to almost no conditionremovals if they don’t heavily trait for it. And since we can get some ridiculous high condition duration in WvW mesmers can maintain 5+ stacks of confusion all the time.

-A guardian can easily cure conditions from their heal and weapons as well and has many light combo fields which cure (combo fields are powerful but few people use them).
-A necro can cure conditions or send them to an opponent or convert them into buffs. Their heal is better with more conditions.
-An engineer can use elixir gun which has the 5 ability which cures conditions, toss elixir r, elixir c to convert conditions and toss elixir c to cure, antidotes from med kit or healing turret. Super elixir, toss elixir r and u also make light fields which cure conditions. They also can use elixir gun to cure allies, and their toss skills listed cure allies as well.

On top of that 1 of any of the 4 can cure an allies easily as well, if you work together.

Untraited the ele/engineer/necro/guardian have the best and most access to cures. If you trait these become even better at curing but untraited they are very strong already. The other professions have access to cures but are a bit more limited outside of specing, eating or gearing, which is a weakness of the more offensive classes of mesmer/thief/ranger/warrior. But even those all have utilities that can cure and some even have condition removal built into their heals.

There is also food, runes and sigils that reduce condition duration/transfer conditions/remove conditions which everyone has access to.

Not anyone traits for heavy condition removal and the engineer lacks it without those investments. Elixir gun is crap so why should I waste a utility slot for 1 condi cleanser every 20 sec? The engineer is allready a tough class to play why should I gimp myself even more? And even if I bring all those cleansers there is still a chance it will cleanse the wrong condition / you catch me when I’m out of cleansers.

I wonder why you even bring condition cleanser as a valid argument as you can easily reaplly 4-8 confusion stacks as a mesmer without too much effort. Shatters aren’t your only source of stacking them you know?

Any good conditionspec will watch out for conditioncleanse abilities and keep their key conditions for after the enemy blew them up. Even an elementalist with almost infinite cleanse possibilities offers a timewindow where he can’t cleanse anything.
With your logic he just should wait out until his cleanses come avaiable again before he starts doing anything…

And no confusion doesn’t really hurt those key spammers, it hurts those classes that attack fast/produce multiple actions with 1 single button press. The 100 nades medkit button with 4 ticks for 1 key press was just 1 example. There are sure more.

I don’t think ANet wanted confusion to be a much stronger stun which penalices you even more then a regular stun/daze.

I’ll stop argueing here as I don’t see this going into any direction. Mesmers will say leave it as it is no matter what kind of arguments I can bring. I just dare you to play against those named mesmers with another class. I think this would greatly help you understand.

Look i actually run the 100nade build on my engineer, if i die because i fought a confusion mesmer (first off i would never win because i knew what i was getting into, with the wrong build) it’s 200% my fault for my self-destruction.

Secondly ur talking about a GC 100nade build who died to confusion when it’s the least of your worries in a big wvw fight?

Tiglie.5834:

For all the zerglings, you have no input on this discussion.

Because 90% of all fights in WvW happen to be 1vs1 or at least no more than 5vs5.

Tiglie.5834:

There is nothing you are going to do to avoid a 3 clone shatter of confusion stacks,

Dodge it. Or outrun it (yes, that happens to me more often than I wish it would; except when I’m standing quite close to the target).

Tiglie.5834:

it’s coming out of an invis with a roll to decoy bomb

That’s completely impossible, because:

1. You can only summon clones and illusions if you have a target. Thus, they can never attack out of stealth.
2. Dodges only can create clones if you’re already fighting, which is not the case if you approach the target while being invisible.

Tiglie.5834:

at which time you are stuck with your hand in your pocket, while their burst dps drops 1 or 2 people

Yes, because none of you 5 guys has any kind of condition removal ready. And obviously also, because all 5 of you were hugging eachother so closely while waiting for the enemy to appear, that all of you got hit by the shatter of all the clones.

Tiglie.5834:

it’s a guaranteed I-Win button in small group fights.

If that’s what you call an I-Win button, then the thief’s backstab-heartseeker or warrior’s 100blade are I-Win buttons as well. Actually, even more than confusion. Oh, and don’t forget about D/D-eles. They are an I-Win class. And the condition necros which can eat condition mesmers alive, are obviously the true gods in this game. Grenth looks like a wuss compared to them.

Dynnen.6405:

Lol, I just love the fact that people assume that if you get hit with a confusion tick you’re a bad player.

Getting damage from confusion doesn’t make you a bad player. Killing yourself 9 of 10 times while being confused surely does. Going to cry on the forum and demanding a nerf without doing some research first, makes you a lazy bad player. Ignoring the arguments and advice which nice people give you instead of actually trying to improve, makes you a troll.

Edit: I play WvW and I also sometimes jump into PvP. I don’t remember that I ever died while having confusion on me.

papacooldown.9482:

Man im getting so tired of seeing the same pattern in every single MMO. Some good player is able to roll people with a particular spec and posts a video of it and thus the tears start flowing and the devs eventually nerf (usually overnerf) the class/spec in question. Rinse, repeat for a while and you have PvP similar to WoW – homogenized to the max, every class can do everything. Then these same whiners will cry epic oceans of tears over how they are no longer a unique snowflake that specialized in X because everyone can do X now.

Please try to avoid knee jerk reactions to getting killed a few times by something you dont fully understand how to deal with yet. You may eventually get your way but players like you are the source of homogenization in MMO PvP, and you may not like the end result once you get there. Why not try to play the class/spec in question to understand its weaknesses? Do me a favor and go try to play a confusion spec mesmer in WvW. Let me know how useless you feel when you come across a player that negates your entire spec by NOT PRESSING BUTTONS for the few seconds your confusion stacks are up. Then go to SPvP and let me know how useless you feel when your confusion does such pitiful damage with such short duration that it can be ignored entirely.

I cant deny its a bit annoying, but the important part is simply acceptance. Thats how people work. If they lose, it is rarely looked at as an opportunity to learn.

I have been playing MMOs since Ultima, and this is a trend that is 100% consistent. Just enjoy the game as it is, because it will most certainly be changed according to those who whine the most.

Sadly, it also minimizes the veracity of people bringing up very real issues.

Aint nuthin gonna change bout it though!

Dr Acula.3496:

The fact of the matter is that I play WvW simply for the fact that it isn’t sPvP, and I’m sure there are plenty of other players out there with a similar mentality. TBH though I would have to agree that damage is most likely balanced somewhere in between WvW and sPvP. As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread Confusion is next to useless in sPvP. It simply doesn’t have the duration or oomf behind it for other players to even care if they have it on them. In addition if you nerf confusion damage you have to give mesmers something else, otherwise we are more or less forced into playing Power shatter / Phantasm builds. I enjoy being able to have a bit of variety.

Yeah, I dislike sPvP as well when compared to WvW. I pretty much agree with you on what you said here. In beta, sPvP confusion damage was a joke. I imagine it’s similar to that in sPvP now. It needs to have some bite to it. I think the balance point is somewhere in the middle perhaps. I also think that confusion could be boosted in some other ways to compensate for damage loss. Longer duration, putting in a mechanic that makes it harder to remove, etc.

On the topic of damage, confusion is not the only ability that hits harder in WvW than sPvP. It makes no sense that they allow this, particularly given the fact that damage in WvW is already higher due to gear selection, food, oil, and stacks.

Last night you hit me with 6 stacks of confusion that were immediately removed by my passive condition removal. I did not take even one tic of damage from it. This kind of “all or nothing” damage is bad for the game in my opinion. I’d rather you do less damage more consistently than doing either very high damage or no damage at all. It might weaken you in 5v5s or less but I think it would help you a lot more in the 10v10 types of fights where there is a lot more passive condition removal going around through combo fields and group abilities. Not to mention the difficulty in having your shatters reach their target with all of the AoE damage flying around.

About the “crutch” stuff. That is not directed to people like you who are going to be good no matter what class they play. If people come at me with the “ur bad” BS, then I’ll come back at them that they need the “crutch.” Some times you have to fight stupid with stupid.

Saturn.6591:

Edit: I play WvW and I also sometimes jump into PvP. I don’t remember that I ever died while having confusion on me.

So, you’ve never been hit with a stack of confusion at low health where even trying to heal yourself kills you? You don’t PvP much I take it. :P

You are at 2K health, just don’t do anything for 5 seconds!

I’m surprised people skipped the QQ about LoD hammer warriors and went straight for confusion mesmers.

They are fine IMO, one of the few viable zerg builds mesmers have, and in small scale fights I fine them much less dangerous than physical damage shatter mesmers. Even if they get 10 stacks of confusion on you they have zero means of damage of other damage, so if you can’t remove the confusion then it is still fairly trivial to ride out the damage until your cool downs come up.

i get the feeling that people are implying mesmers do 15stack burst of confusions in 2seconds in which said player imploded in on himselfs, only a bad mesmer would use all confusions skills in a burst, and only someone worse would implode himself doing so. Good mesmers use it in small burst, not some gigantic burst of 15 stacks, they usually sustain around 3-6stacks of confusion, if the other player is just an average player with average amounts of cond removals.

Oh an easy counter to confusion mesmers who burst out 15stacks of confusion, just cure it, then the mesmer is basically useless and dodging/going invisi/ til his cooldowns are back up, which is roughly around 25-30seconds.

Oozo.7856:

Saturn.6591:

Edit: I play WvW and I also sometimes jump into PvP. I don’t remember that I ever died while having confusion on me.

So, you’ve never been hit with a stack of confusion at low health where even trying to heal yourself kills you? You don’t PvP much I take it. :P

You are at 2K health, just don’t do anything for 5 seconds!

first off, that’s called getting caught with your pants down, he outplayed you, accept it and move on.

Zauric.2981:

I’m surprised people skipped the QQ about LoD hammer warriors and went straight for confusion mesmers.

They are fine IMO, one of the few viable zerg builds mesmers have, and in small scale fights I fine them much less dangerous than physical damage shatter mesmers. Even if they get 10 stacks of confusion on you they have zero means of damage, so if you can’t remove the confusion then it is still fairly trivial to ride out the damage until your cooldowns come up.

Stuns are far easier to counter since there are a ton of stun removals in the game along with the ultimate denier – stability. And, of course, what people have been ignoring is that it’s not what the confusion mesmer is doing to you it’s what the other people are doing to you while you are shut out of using both offensive and (more importantly) defensive abilities.

I’m not sure how many of you people do 5v5 or 10v10 but doing five seconds of nothing for any stretch of time is a death sentence.

Oozo.7856:

Zauric.2981:

I’m surprised people skipped the QQ about LoD hammer warriors and went straight for confusion mesmers.

They are fine IMO, one of the few viable zerg builds mesmers have, and in small scale fights I fine them much less dangerous than physical damage shatter mesmers. Even if they get 10 stacks of confusion on you they have zero means of damage, so if you can’t remove the confusion then it is still fairly trivial to ride out the damage until your cooldowns come up.

Stuns are far easier to counter since there are a ton of stun removals in the game along with the ultimate denier – stability. And, of course, what people have been ignoring is that it’s not what the confusion mesmer is doing to you it’s what the other people are doing to you while you are shut out of using both offensive and (more importantly) defensive abilities.

why must you make it seem like a 3v1 or a 2v1 or 10v1? you have allies, they should help you, walk into the background roughly 5 seconds won’t kill you unless the whole entire group decides to focus fire on you.

Oozo.7856:

Saturn.6591:

Edit: I play WvW and I also sometimes jump into PvP. I don’t remember that I ever died while having confusion on me.

So, you’ve never been hit with a stack of confusion at low health where even trying to heal yourself kills you? You don’t PvP much I take it. :P

You are at 2K health, just don’t do anything for 5 seconds!

If you’re at 2k health and get hit by just about anything you would die.
How is this an argument against confusion?

If your argument for nerfing it is that “It kills people at low health” then that, right there, is pretty compelling evidence that the kitten isn’t overpowered.

Bones.5762:

Oozo.7856:

Saturn.6591:

Edit: I play WvW and I also sometimes jump into PvP. I don’t remember that I ever died while having confusion on me.

So, you’ve never been hit with a stack of confusion at low health where even trying to heal yourself kills you? You don’t PvP much I take it. :P

You are at 2K health, just don’t do anything for 5 seconds!

first off, that’s called getting caught with your pants down, he outplayed you, accept it and move on.

Dude, just stop it already. He said he never died to confusion and I gave him a common example of where you die because confusion is on you. I did not say that you should not die in this situation.

Work on your reading comprehension and come at me with intelligent comments.

In all of the fights that we had last night I don’t worry about my clones reaching their destination because I sit in the middle of your group and right on top of whoever it is that I am targeting. This aleviates the issue of people being able to dodge the clones running at them. If I open with Blink to target, Mirror Images, dodge then Cry of Frustration that’s an instant 8 stack of confusion on everyone in the Immediate area (Illusionary Persona allows me to count as a clone for the purposes of shatters) if that gets immediately wiped off someone all I need to do is dodge, dodge, staff 2 and Mind Wrack. Another instant 4 stack. I’m going to sit inside of your group as long as my HP permits me to and continually shatter. The second I get too low I have to back way out and run for a reset or run to our ele or guardian to recoup health. While I could continue to conjure up clones and shatter them during this period there is almost no chance they will make it to target since they will most likely die to AoE (they have practically no health) and if they do happen to make it close to the target I would genuinely hope that the player would be like, “oh there is 3 identical players running at me… Probably a mesmer shatter inc… I should be ready to dodge.” Granted there are times when you are out of endurance etc and then you’re left with the unfortunate task of eating those stacks. The fact of the matter is Mesmer Condi builds RELY on confusion. We don’t reliably stack any other condition, not on the level a P/D thief or condi Necro does. You nerf Confusion and you effectively gimp an entire build.

EnRohbi.2187:

Oozo.7856:

Saturn.6591:

Edit: I play WvW and I also sometimes jump into PvP. I don’t remember that I ever died while having confusion on me.

So, you’ve never been hit with a stack of confusion at low health where even trying to heal yourself kills you? You don’t PvP much I take it. :P

You are at 2K health, just don’t do anything for 5 seconds!

If you’re at 2k health and get hit by just about anything you would die.
How is this an argument against confusion?

If your argument for nerfing it is that “It kills people at low health” then that, right there, is pretty compelling evidence that the kitten isn’t overpowered.

It’s not an argument against confusion. WTF has happened to our education system where people can not accurately interpret what has been stated in clear terms.

He said “never.” I took issue with the use of that word. End of story.

Oozo.7856:

Zauric.2981:

I’m surprised people skipped the QQ about LoD hammer warriors and went straight for confusion mesmers.

They are fine IMO, one of the few viable zerg builds mesmers have, and in small scale fights I fine them much less dangerous than physical damage shatter mesmers. Even if they get 10 stacks of confusion on you they have zero means of damage, so if you can’t remove the confusion then it is still fairly trivial to ride out the damage until your cooldowns come up.

Stuns are far easier to counter since there are a ton of stun removals in the game along with the ultimate denier – stability. And, of course, what people have been ignoring is that it’s not what the confusion mesmer is doing to you it’s what the other people are doing to you while you are shut out of using both offensive and (more importantly) defensive abilities.

I’m not sure how many of you people do 5v5 or 10v10 but doing five seconds of nothing for any stretch of time is a death sentence.

There are more condition removal skills in the game than stun breakers… plus food/runes/ sigils/specs/combo fields…

And in a 5v5 or 10v10 if you don’t bring a support guardian or necro or elementalist or even an engineer to support and remove conditions and/or you don’t know how to use combo fields and/or your people don’t bring a cleans you deserve to die to any confusion mesmer or condition necro. And a necro is much harder to cleans than 1 stack of confusion. And if you can’t stop for a few seconds and hide to heal behind your allies, you need a better group with more CC.

I really don’t understand how the people complaining about confusion deal with condition builds from other classes, because every complaint about confusion can be said about any other condition spec that can stack conditions high (necro, thief ect.)

Oozo.7856:

EnRohbi.2187:

Oozo.7856:

Saturn.6591:

Edit: I play WvW and I also sometimes jump into PvP. I don’t remember that I ever died while having confusion on me.

So, you’ve never been hit with a stack of confusion at low health where even trying to heal yourself kills you? You don’t PvP much I take it. :P

You are at 2K health, just don’t do anything for 5 seconds!

If you’re at 2k health and get hit by just about anything you would die.
How is this an argument against confusion?

If your argument for nerfing it is that “It kills people at low health” then that, right there, is pretty compelling evidence that the kitten isn’t overpowered.

It’s not an argument against confusion. WTF has happened to our education system where people can not accurately interpret what has been stated in clear terms.

He said “never.” I took issue with the use of that word. End of story.

Generally,
When multiple people don’t understand what you’re trying to get across, the issue is with how you’ve presented your sentence, not with how others read it.

Oozo.7856:

EnRohbi.2187:

Oozo.7856:

Saturn.6591:

Edit: I play WvW and I also sometimes jump into PvP. I don’t remember that I ever died while having confusion on me.

So, you’ve never been hit with a stack of confusion at low health where even trying to heal yourself kills you? You don’t PvP much I take it. :P

You are at 2K health, just don’t do anything for 5 seconds!

If you’re at 2k health and get hit by just about anything you would die.
How is this an argument against confusion?

If your argument for nerfing it is that “It kills people at low health” then that, right there, is pretty compelling evidence that the kitten isn’t overpowered.

It’s not an argument against confusion. WTF has happened to our education system where people can not accurately interpret what has been stated in clear terms.

He said “never.” I took issue with the use of that word. End of story.

He said HE never was in a situation where confusion has killed him, you made up some fake example and are trying to put him in it.

I’m simply saying anyone in that situation got outplayed. maybe you need to educate yourself first.

Oozo.7856:

Dr Acula.3496:

The fact of the matter is that I play WvW simply for the fact that it isn’t sPvP, and I’m sure there are plenty of other players out there with a similar mentality. TBH though I would have to agree that damage is most likely balanced somewhere in between WvW and sPvP. As has been pointed out numerous times in this thread Confusion is next to useless in sPvP. It simply doesn’t have the duration or oomf behind it for other players to even care if they have it on them. In addition if you nerf confusion damage you have to give mesmers something else, otherwise we are more or less forced into playing Power shatter / Phantasm builds. I enjoy being able to have a bit of variety.

Yeah, I dislike sPvP as well when compared to WvW. I pretty much agree with you on what you said here. In beta, sPvP confusion damage was a joke. I imagine it’s similar to that in sPvP now. It needs to have some bite to it. I think the balance point is somewhere in the middle perhaps. I also think that confusion could be boosted in some other ways to compensate for damage loss. Longer duration, putting in a mechanic that makes it harder to remove, etc.

On the topic of damage, confusion is not the only ability that hits harder in WvW than sPvP. It makes no sense that they allow this, particularly given the fact that damage in WvW is already higher due to gear selection, food, oil, and stacks.

Last night you hit me with 6 stacks of confusion that were immediately removed by my passive condition removal. I did not take even one tic of damage from it. This kind of “all or nothing” damage is bad for the game in my opinion. I’d rather you do less damage more consistently than doing either very high damage or no damage at all. It might weaken you in 5v5s or less but I think it would help you a lot more in the 10v10 types of fights where there is a lot more passive condition removal going around through combo fields and group abilities. Not to mention the difficulty in having your shatters reach their target with all of the AoE damage flying around.

About the “crutch” stuff. That is not directed to people like you who are going to be good no matter what class they play. If people come at me with the “ur bad” BS, then I’ll come back at them that they need the “crutch.” Some times you have to fight stupid with stupid.

As for all or nothing damage, that is essentially what any glass cannon build is. GC warrior, Bull’s Frenzy 100B, and hope for the best. If that fails when then it’s basically GG for that warrior. Thief Mug CnD BS with assass sig and Bask venom is another good 1 trick pony. Confusion is hardly all or nothing, that would be like saying bleeds, poison, burns etc are all or nothing since they can essentially be cleansed the second they appear on your character and do 0 damage.

Oozo.7856:

Zauric.2981:

I’m surprised people skipped the QQ about LoD hammer warriors and went straight for confusion mesmers.

They are fine IMO, one of the few viable zerg builds mesmers have, and in small scale fights I fine them much less dangerous than physical damage shatter mesmers. Even if they get 10 stacks of confusion on you they have zero means of damage, so if you can’t remove the confusion then it is still fairly trivial to ride out the damage until your cooldowns come up.

Stuns are far easier to counter since there are a ton of stun removals in the game along with the ultimate denier – stability. And, of course, what people have been ignoring is that it’s not what the confusion mesmer is doing to you it’s what the other people are doing to you while you are shut out of using both offensive and (more importantly) defensive abilities.

I’m not sure how many of you people do 5v5 or 10v10 but doing five seconds of nothing for any stretch of time is a death sentence.

I almost exclusively solo in WvW or run in a 5 man havoc group. We have never seen confusion mesmers that are so dangerous in small scale engagements that I would consider them OP. Are they strong, and do they provide something to watch out for? Of course. But there are plenty of builds that are just as strong as confusion mesmers, and plenty more that are much stronger than confusion mesmers in those small scale scenarios, so I think singling them out is somewhat odd, especially as they are much much stronger in zerg vs zerg fights.

I know we don’t run confusion mesmers in our 5 mans, as they don’t have enough burst, aren’t mobile enough and aren’t survivable enough. YMMV.

Kagato.4061:

I’ll give you guys all a helpful tip:

If you have a crap ton of confusion stacked on you, don’t attack.

^ this. It gives you plenty of indication that you have confusion on you and if you have tunnel vision and keep attacking then I can understand why you’re all getting upset.

try not attacking for a few seconds.

When another Mesmer manages to stack loads of confusion on me I just use a condition removal skill and then swiftly murder them. To rack up a significantly large stack of confusion requires quite a lot of effort, timing and cooldowns. If a confusion Mesmer blows all their confusion cooldowns on me and they only clock one tick of damage (me using condition removal once) then they’re main damage source is out of the question and the fight is tipped in my favour.

And sure, you take some damage when you use the condition removal skill, but then I would also take some damage from bleeds, poison or burning before I set off my condition removal for them. So to me it’s just another condition to remove.

Whether or not it does too much damage, well, I don’t know. I’ve run confusion Mesmer builds in sPvP too and it was just as effective as in WvW. In fact it’s much easier to stack confusion in sPvP as a Mesmer, because battles are more controlled and intimate so it’s not as difficult to hit your opponents with all those glamour fields. I don’t think reducing the damage output of confusion will really help those players that don’t run with condition removal or those players that take any notice of the conditions that have been applied to them.

Dr Acula.3496:

In all of the fights that we had last night I don’t worry about my clones reaching their destination because I sit in the middle of your group and right on top of whoever it is that I am targeting. This aleviates the issue of people being able to dodge the clones running at them. If I open with Blink to target, Mirror Images, dodge then Cry of Frustration that’s an instant 8 stack of confusion on everyone in the Immediate area (Illusionary Persona allows me to count as a clone for the purposes of shatters) if that gets immediately wiped off someone all I need to do is dodge, dodge, staff 2 and Mind Wrack. Another instant 4 stack. I’m going to sit inside of your group as long as my HP permits me to and continually shatter. The second I get too low I have to back way out and run for a reset or run to our ele or guardian to recoup health. While I could continue to conjure up clones and shatter them during this period there is almost no chance they will make it to target since they will most likely die to AoE (they have practically no health) and if they do happen to make it close to the target I would genuinely hope that the player would be like, “oh there is 3 identical players running at me… Probably a mesmer shatter inc… I should be ready to dodge.” Granted there are times when you are out of endurance etc and then you’re left with the unfortunate task of eating those stacks. The fact of the matter is Mesmer Condi builds RELY on confusion. We don’t reliably stack any other condition, not on the level a P/D thief or condi Necro does. You nerf Confusion and you effectively gimp an entire build.

Yes, I know, but sometimes they can get instagibbed by collateral AoE damage even when popped point blank in 10v10ish situations. I know that the build is heavily dependent on confusion which is why I would try to make the build and confusion stronger in other ways.

BTW, thanks for the explanation on how to keep confusion rolling for those who say that you can’t. I already knew the rotation you described and the traits mentioned. I don’t know everything but I do know quite a lot since I’ve been researching the game since beta.

Simonoly.4352:

When another Mesmer manages to stack loads of confusion on me I just use a condition removal skill and then swiftly murder them. To rack up a significantly large stack of confusion requires quite a lot of effort, timing and cooldowns. If a confusion Mesmer blows all their confusion cooldowns on me and they only clock one tick of damage (me using condition removal once) then they’re main damage source is out of the question and the fight is tipped in my favour.

And sure, you take some damage when you use the condition removal skill, but then I would also take some damage from bleeds, poison or burning before I set off my condition removal for them. So to me it’s just another condition to remove.

Whether or not it does too much damage, well, I don’t know. I’ve run confusion Mesmer builds in sPvP too and it was just as effective as in WvW. In fact it’s much easier to stack confusion in sPvP as a Mesmer, because battles are more controlled and intimate so it’s not as difficult to hit your opponents with all those glamour fields. I don’t think reducing the damage output of confusion will really help those players that don’t run with condition removal or those players that take any notice of the conditions that have been applied to them.

So, that was basically an argument for lowering WvW confusion damage to sPvP levels.

Oozo.7856:

Dr Acula.3496:

In all of the fights that we had last night I don’t worry about my clones reaching their destination because I sit in the middle of your group and right on top of whoever it is that I am targeting. This aleviates the issue of people being able to dodge the clones running at them. If I open with Blink to target, Mirror Images, dodge then Cry of Frustration that’s an instant 8 stack of confusion on everyone in the Immediate area (Illusionary Persona allows me to count as a clone for the purposes of shatters) if that gets immediately wiped off someone all I need to do is dodge, dodge, staff 2 and Mind Wrack. Another instant 4 stack. I’m going to sit inside of your group as long as my HP permits me to and continually shatter. The second I get too low I have to back way out and run for a reset or run to our ele or guardian to recoup health. While I could continue to conjure up clones and shatter them during this period there is almost no chance they will make it to target since they will most likely die to AoE (they have practically no health) and if they do happen to make it close to the target I would genuinely hope that the player would be like, “oh there is 3 identical players running at me… Probably a mesmer shatter inc… I should be ready to dodge.” Granted there are times when you are out of endurance etc and then you’re left with the unfortunate task of eating those stacks. The fact of the matter is Mesmer Condi builds RELY on confusion. We don’t reliably stack any other condition, not on the level a P/D thief or condi Necro does. You nerf Confusion and you effectively gimp an entire build.

Yes, I know, but sometimes they can get instagibbed by collateral AoE damage even when popped point blank in 10v10ish situations. I know that the build is heavily dependent on confusion which is why I would try to make the build and confusion stronger in other ways.

BTW, thanks for the explanation on how to keep confusion rolling for those who say that you can’t. I already knew the rotation you described and the traits mentioned. I don’t know everything but I do know quite a lot since I’ve been researching the game since beta.

That whole wall of text wasn’t meant as any sort of attack on your intelligence or level of knowledge of the game. (I’ve also been playing since BW1) I’m merely at a loss for why you are pioneering this sudden inquistion against Conf Mesmers. It’s not like these builds are new or were suddenly buffed. Nor do I find that they are particularly game breaking. Especially not at the rate conditions can be cleansed off other players in group settings.

Dr Acula.3496:

As for all or nothing damage, that is essentially what any glass cannon build is. GC warrior, Bull’s Frenzy 100B, and hope for the best. If that fails when then it’s basically GG for that warrior. Thief Mug CnD BS with assass sig and Bask venom is another good 1 trick pony. Confusion is hardly all or nothing, that would be like saying bleeds, poison, burns etc are all or nothing since they can essentially be cleansed the second they appear on your character and do 0 damage.

Yes, I put those things in the “all or nothing” category as well. The result of a fight against a GC 100B warrior is quite different depending on whether you have your defensive CDs available or not. The thief rotation you gave is another example. As a necro, that fight is entirely different when I have life force than when I don’t.

When I say “all or nothing” I’m only talking about things that have very high burst damage potential where the fight is almost totally determined by whether you are able to counter it or not. Bleeds, poison, and burns don’t fall under that category.

Oozo.7856:

So, that was basically an argument for lowering WvW confusion damage to sPvP levels.

Yes and no. I’m not really arguing either way to be honest. I’m just discussing confusion as it stands now. It’s good to mull these things over before screaming “nerf” or “L2P”.

Oozo.7856:

Dr Acula.3496:

As for all or nothing damage, that is essentially what any glass cannon build is. GC warrior, Bull’s Frenzy 100B, and hope for the best. If that fails when then it’s basically GG for that warrior. Thief Mug CnD BS with assass sig and Bask venom is another good 1 trick pony. Confusion is hardly all or nothing, that would be like saying bleeds, poison, burns etc are all or nothing since they can essentially be cleansed the second they appear on your character and do 0 damage.

Yes, I put those things in the “all or nothing” category as well. The result of a fight against a GC 100B warrior is quite different depending on whether you have your defensive CDs available or not. The thief rotation you gave is another example. As a necro, that fight is entirely different when I have life force than when I don’t.

When I say “all or nothing” I’m only talking about things that have very high burst damage potential where the fight is almost totally determined by whether you are able to counter it or not. Bleeds, poison, and burns don’t fall under that category.

I find that high levels of burst add to the dynamic of the game rather than detract from it. If everyone were just running around doing moderate levels of sustained damage, fights would become rather stale and boring. Hence why in group situations you mix that sustained damage in with potential high burst to provide that extra push you need to get players down.

It’s fairly simply, confusion is out of hand. No one wants it useless, just more balanced. There needs to be a trade-off if a cleanse isn’t readily available. in your build or on cooldown. You can take an action , but it’s going to cost you … currently the cost is disproportionate. 5k damage being on the extreme side, but more generally 3k for any action besides inaction. ( when cleanses are on cooldown or not available ) To all of you zergies claiming : Just stop for awhile, have you ever actually been in a skilled WvW fight? Stopping isn’t the counter to confusion, it’s an added effect from confusion which can be more damaging than the -damage- portion of the condition.

It’s easy , either Anet nerfs it or Confusion bombers become as prevalent as D/D Ele’s, imagine that for awhile … the only viable small man teams consisting of : D/D Ele’s, Thieves, Confusion Bombers and the token tank. How wonderfully diverse the playing field is. ( obvious generalization is obvious )

P.S : Confusion bomb builds are cheese.

Smitten.3076:

It’s fairly simply, confusion is out of hand. No one wants it useless, just more balanced. There needs to be a trade-off if a cleanse isn’t readily available. in your build or on cooldown. You can take an action , but it’s going to cost you … currently the cost is disproportionate. 5k damage being on the extreme side, but more generally 3k for any action besides inaction. ( when cleanses are on cooldown or not available ) To all of you zergies claiming : Just stop for awhile, have you ever actually been in a skilled WvW fight? Stopping isn’t the counter to confusion, it’s an added effect from confusion which can be more damaging than the -damage- portion of the condition.

It’s easy , either Anet nerfs it or Confusion bombers become as prevalent as D/D Ele’s, imagine that for awhile … the only viable small man teams consisting of : D/D Ele’s, Thieves, Confusion Bombers and the token tank. How wonderfully diverse the playing field is. ( obvious generalization is obvious )

P.S : Confusion bomb builds are cheese.

Explain to me how damage that YOU CONTROL WHEN AND IF you take at all is out of hand.

Explain to me how a cheese build being strong isn’t a l2p issue.

Explain to me how you die so often to Confusion that it has to be nerfed, but other people out there have less than one out of every 20 deaths caused by confusion.

Explain to me how some people can be so affected by this “out of hand” mechanic while others barely even notice it’s impact.

Bad players die from confusion.
Good players know how to deal with confusion builds.

If you don’t want to adapt and become a good player, then you must accept that you simply don’t get to nerf everything you cannot deal with.

Dr Acula.3496:

Oozo.7856:

Dr Acula.3496:

In all of the fights that we had last night I don’t worry about my clones reaching their destination because I sit in the middle of your group and right on top of whoever it is that I am targeting. This aleviates the issue of people being able to dodge the clones running at them. If I open with Blink to target, Mirror Images, dodge then Cry of Frustration that’s an instant 8 stack of confusion on everyone in the Immediate area (Illusionary Persona allows me to count as a clone for the purposes of shatters) if that gets immediately wiped off someone all I need to do is dodge, dodge, staff 2 and Mind Wrack. Another instant 4 stack. I’m going to sit inside of your group as long as my HP permits me to and continually shatter. The second I get too low I have to back way out and run for a reset or run to our ele or guardian to recoup health. While I could continue to conjure up clones and shatter them during this period there is almost no chance they will make it to target since they will most likely die to AoE (they have practically no health) and if they do happen to make it close to the target I would genuinely hope that the player would be like, “oh there is 3 identical players running at me… Probably a mesmer shatter inc… I should be ready to dodge.” Granted there are times when you are out of endurance etc and then you’re left with the unfortunate task of eating those stacks. The fact of the matter is Mesmer Condi builds RELY on confusion. We don’t reliably stack any other condition, not on the level a P/D thief or condi Necro does. You nerf Confusion and you effectively gimp an entire build.

Yes, I know, but sometimes they can get instagibbed by collateral AoE damage even when popped point blank in 10v10ish situations. I know that the build is heavily dependent on confusion which is why I would try to make the build and confusion stronger in other ways.

BTW, thanks for the explanation on how to keep confusion rolling for those who say that you can’t. I already knew the rotation you described and the traits mentioned. I don’t know everything but I do know quite a lot since I’ve been researching the game since beta.

That whole wall of text wasn’t meant as any sort of attack on your intelligence or level of knowledge of the game. (I’ve also been playing since BW1) I’m merely at a loss for why you are pioneering this sudden inquistion against Conf Mesmers. It’s not like these builds are new or were suddenly buffed. Nor do I find that they are particularly game breaking. Especially not at the rate conditions can be cleansed off other players in group settings.

I’ve questioned WTH they were doing since they increased the damage in WvW for PvE balance. Same concern with what they did with CnD damage. That patch really had me wondering whether they really care about WvW or not. I don’t see any valid reason for why the damage for some abilities should be much higher in WvW than sPvP when damage is already inflated by gear, food, oil, and stacks.

Keep in mind that we have a lot of 80 alts. We have at least 4 or 5 L80 mesmers and at least 4 L80 necros. Of course, that doesn’t really matter since you can make a L80 in less than a day via crafting anyway. The only real inhibitor is the cost of gearing.

We are wondering what might happen if we have 3 or 4 mesmers rolling out confusion with some necros spreading via epidemic. It’s not something that would be easy and it would take practice and coordination but we are talking about the potential of spreading over 20 stacks of confusion.