Guild Wars 2

DIRE/TRAIBLAZER stats are a huge problem with balance.

Not even going to bother stating why, it should be obvious, I can’t imagine anyone disagreeing with this. Maybe if enough people will speak up, these stats might be nerfed. Post your thoughts please.

Balance is an issue period and needs to be considered across the board. Dire on a condi mesmer is not an issue unless a player hasn’t learned to target the main instead of a clone. I die plenty on my mesmer. In fact I get few kills on her because if I do come out ahead everyone then outruns me and gets away. Trailblazers? I couldn’t tell you because I just started running it on one of my toons and have yet to figure out if it helps or not.

Truth though? If your maining an Ele your class could use some serious love from the game Godz. That’s my honest opinion.

Huge problem? It’s more of a minor nuisance in my experience. Without decent active defenses and mobility it just extends survival by a few seconds. So the professions that are already top roamers, such as mesmer, thief, and warrior, are the ones that benefit the most.

The unkillable permastealth trailblazer trapper condi thief could use some nerfing, and I don’t think the problem is stealth, traps, or thief. Trailblazer seems to be a pretty aids stat combination, especially in the hands of a class like condi thief there they can 100-0 you without exiting stealth… But still survive if you catch them? A power build that can 100-0 you will melt if you catch them. Seems silly to me.

Also I agree, Kamara… Eles could use some love. They are terrible for roaming (overloads suuuuuucccckkkkk 1v1), and seems like the only viable raid build they have is the mega-bunker healbot tempest. Would love to be able to roam as ele again!

You guys talking about 1v1 or large group combat? Large group, trailblazers is garbbage due to the expertise. Its a totally wasted stat because you’re fighting against tons of cleanses and resistance. If you’re trying to have a condi meta, then you need as much direct condi damagage as possible.

Dire is sacrificing precision which is needed for most condi builds as they have auto procs on crit

If you’re talking 1v1, well, that’s not really WvW. But, lets say you do just happen to run into one guy and never see his friends. You’re complaining about a stat set as it beats you. So, what? Do you beat everyone else except someone running this build? Isn’t that fair? Isn’t that balance? You can’t expect one build to beat everything in the game, otherwise, that would be unbalanced.

Sounds more like another person who needs to learn to play but instead comes on the forums and kittenes about not being able to beat everyone on his build. I can speak from experience that as a condi player, there are people out there that wreck me. And as someone who fights these builds, I wreck them, depending on what I’m running.

Spurnshadow.3678:

If you’re talking 1v1, well, that’s not really WvW.

Doesnt matter, still unbalanced.

Dire/trailblazers on thief or mesmer is by far the most OP condi builds in the game and the very reason people cry “omgwtfthiscondimeta” on a daily basis. Necro would be part of it except it’s pretty mediocre at roaming to begin with. Remove it and they would be nowhere near as much bunker as they are now as they would have choose between vitality or toughness or less of both with a hybrid. Precision is not needed for these specific classes, that’s the entire point.

So yes, dire/trailblazers should be removed from the game. It really cant be stated enough. There are no excuses, no defense in favor of full condi and full bunker gearstats. Anet already removed dire in PvP because it pretty much ruined it. If Anet cant see that this should be removed in WvW as well they are fools.

Dawdler.8521:

Anet already removed dire in PvP because it pretty much ruined it.

Yeah guys, dire gear is what ruined PvP lol. That’s why it’s so successful now lmao.

Balancing should be done by Nerfing/Buffing the most relevant aspect(s) of the particular build in question with the consideration to not Unnecessarily/Overly affect other Builds/Classes.

First one should look if the problem can be fixed by changing Skills/Traits after that one could look at the Runes/Sigils/Nourishment followed by Boons/Conditions. (I don’t want to exclude removing gear stats but I’m not convinced that it is currently/ever was necessary for the sake of balance or a good idea for WVW build diversity)

Condi issues have nothing to do with Dire or Trailblazer but rather a system designed around all or nothing. Either condi has relatively no effect or it outright destroys a build.

IMO toughness should reduce condi duration, resistance should give partial condi damage reduction, mobility conditions should be recategorized as “impairments” that can only be cleansed with no way to extend them and condi damage itself cannot be cleansed (that is what toughness and resistance would be for).

Dawdler.8521:

So yes, dire/trailblazers should be removed from the game. It really cant be stated enough. There are no excuses, no defense in favor of full condi and full bunker gearstats. Anet already removed dire in PvP because it pretty much ruined it. If Anet cant see that this should be removed in WvW as well they are fools.

The stats were removed from PvP because the PvP team can simply add/remove amulets at will without having to wait for balance team to do somenthing. What can WvW do when their balance is tied to PvE? Unless you are proposing that WvW start using the amulet system (which I’m pretty sure most people don’t want) there is nothing that can be done about it.

I’d love to agree with the OP and comments and while I think it’s a bad stat combo with too much forgiveness….

….the reality is I just don’t have many 1v1s anymore to judge it by. I either get chased down by a zerg of DH’s spamming F1 to pull me into their hungry karma training mouth or I’m with a small group and we make such builds explode from all the power HoT gave us in CC, damage boosts or control conditions.

Maybe in a 1v1 up to a 3v3 they’re really strong but as I say I just don’t find myself in that situation very often and the stats become irrelevant when you have 5 people focus you.

MOAR health and MOAR toughness is trivial compared to the things that protect it like evades/blocks/invulnerability/protection/dmg reduction/resistance/dmg immunity/projectile hate/weakness/blind spam/stealth/mobility/stability/cc spam.

Dire/trailblazer is a flat increase in someone’s survivability, it doesn’t make a killable noob into an op unkillable monster.

There no issues with dire. None. It has no more toughness and vitality then soldier and like soldiers , the toughness does nothing against conditions. Like soldiers power builds can generate all the damage they need to cut though the toughness. People using soldiers armor do not see their survicval go up a heck of a lot against a power build which is why so many sacrifice defense to output more damage.

A thief in dire , as example with all dire weapon and armor has less health then does a naked warrior.

Justine is exactly correct.

Jeknar.6184:

Dawdler.8521:

So yes, dire/trailblazers should be removed from the game. It really cant be stated enough. There are no excuses, no defense in favor of full condi and full bunker gearstats. Anet already removed dire in PvP because it pretty much ruined it. If Anet cant see that this should be removed in WvW as well they are fools.

The stats were removed from PvP because the PvP team can simply add/remove amulets at will without having to wait for balance team to do somenthing. What can WvW do when their balance is tied to PvE? Unless you are proposing that WvW start using the amulet system (which I’m pretty sure most people don’t want) there is nothing that can be done about it.

Reset all current dire or trailblazer gear to be selectable between rampager, rabid, sinister, apothecary, carrion, viper or celestial (ie the remaining gear with condi, unless I forgot one). The system is already in the game.

There, was that really so hard?

Dawdler.8521:

Jeknar.6184:

Dawdler.8521:

So yes, dire/trailblazers should be removed from the game. It really cant be stated enough. There are no excuses, no defense in favor of full condi and full bunker gearstats. Anet already removed dire in PvP because it pretty much ruined it. If Anet cant see that this should be removed in WvW as well they are fools.

The stats were removed from PvP because the PvP team can simply add/remove amulets at will without having to wait for balance team to do somenthing. What can WvW do when their balance is tied to PvE? Unless you are proposing that WvW start using the amulet system (which I’m pretty sure most people don’t want) there is nothing that can be done about it.

Reset all current dire or trailblazer gear to be selectable between rampager, rabid, sinister, apothecary, carrion, viper or celestial (ie the remaining gear with condi, unless I forgot one). The system is already in the game.

There, was that really so hard?

That’s not a very likely solution since trailblazer costs more. Not sure if dire is expensive or not.

Honest though, rabid/carrion split is probably a better stat set than dire. If people start running that mix then the crying will explode as now condi builds would be doing some power dmg aswell.

As others stated there is nothing wrong with Dire/Trailblazer Stats. Are Mesmers, Rangers and Thiefs geared in it the best duelist in WvW? Yeah probably but someone needs to be. Versus groups or in groups larger than five your effectiveness tanks hard. That is the balance at the moment. In larger battles only necromancers apply enough condi to make it viable.

Dunno why you guys keep bringing up thieves. They’re probably the worst at condi. Mostly bleeds with some poison and a dash of torment and confusion. Pretty crap. Easily cleansed. Ranger is probably next. Only really good if you get caught in their traps.

And so on.

Best classes?

Mesmer: They apply bleeds, burning, confusion, torment, and all in massive amounts and very quickly while having good defensive mechanics and traits that extend and increase condition damage. This makes cleansing very difficult and the best defense in killing the mesmer asap. This class needs precision.

Warrior: A well played condi warrior can be devestating, mostly due to it’s survivability, CCs, and that one of it’s main condis is burning. The downside is that it’s main condi is burning with bleeds as it’s secondary which is more easily cleansed than mesmer or necro. Needs precision.

Necro: Really op with condi. Is able to apply burns, poison, and bleeds on a regular and massive basis with a little torment thrown in, while corrupting boons, which applies lots more different types of condis. Impossible to cleanse everything. All the while having very high survivablity. The only downside is the time it takes to ramp up the damage, but once it does, it’s over. Needs precision

I’d mention guard, but it’s more of a burst burn. While devestating, it’s easily cleansed, and burning is it’s only real condi damage. While it doesn’t need precision, if it is not running a decent amount of toughness / vit, it can be one shotted due to it’s low health pool.

Also, I don’t play engi much, but I almost never ever see a condi engi now-adays. Condi rev I only rarely see in PvP.

So, really, the issue is more of class balance than the stat comboes. And as other’s have said, skill bypasses any stat combo by far. And as you can see, the best classes at condi all need a fair amount of precision in order to maximise their dps, so they will have to sacrifice toughness and vitality to get there. Also, expertise is a balancing act. You’re still sacrifising direct damage. Depending on the class, you may not want any. The more expertise you do have, the more you are depending on time.

Gosh, that sounds a lot like power builds.

Spurnshadow.3678:

Dunno why you guys keep bringing up thieves. They’re probably the worst at condi.

They aren’t the worst but I agree with sentiment. I often wonder how so many players manage to avoid condi chrono builds that drop stacks of confusion like a pothead handing out candy on Halloween. They certainly have never been in a duel with a Warrior running Skull Grinder. They clearly have never run into a tRex necro that dumps 25 stacks of bleed and torment along with a ton of cover conditions on small groups as part of their rotation.

Just as example my own Condition warrior uses Settlers armor. He has higher toughness then he would in dire and pushes 3800. He has 26k health and multiple stun breaks to leverage the heal off rousing.

With health coming in via adrenal/regen he has more staying power then dire and the loss in damage from condition stat is minimal. Burns are at 100 percent durations just via traits and food. The base durations of other conditions are plenty high enough.

No precision in the build. base duration of conditions is around 25 percent and it plenty given base of so many is high in seconds outside those burns and can be reapplied.

My power warrior does not even trait for precision as he gets plenty from traits plus high fury access and uptime.

All of this “power builds have to trait for three stats and condition builds for one” is nonsense. Power builds have the flexibility to do this if they wish to a much greater extent then does a condition build so as to maximize damage output and unlike a condition build power builds damage goes up significantly if the enemy in light armor.

Kamara.4187:

Balance is an issue period and needs to be considered across the board. Dire on a condi mesmer is not an issue unless a player hasn’t learned to target the main instead of a clone.

Lolwat.

This build has literally been widely-considered as by-far-and-large the single most overpowered small-scale build in the entire game even before HoT where it got even more boosted. At one point there was a video posted of a guy literally facerolling his keyboard and winning fights with it.

Condi mesmer when in non-tank armor isn’t inherently OP at all. The problem is when it runs so much durability and has so much immunity uptime, it doesn’t allow players windows of opportunity to punish the mesmer back. This is especially apparent on Chrono.

If they got rid of dire/TB entirely we’d see relative balance in condition builds; a major problem is that almost all condition damage trait lines are defensive because originally condition damage as a stat didn’t exist and was meant as a source of small damage for tanks to deal on builds with heavier condition access (which is why it ignores all armor).

If both sides have access to it then it’s not a problem. Rock, paper, scissors.

Kaiser.9873
If both sides have access to it then it’s not a problem. Rock, paper, scissors.

Besides stats matter little to zero now. Never thought to check an individual’s gear when a blob rolls over me.

While it is true that squishy condi mesmer builds are way easier to deal with than tanky ones removing gear stats is not the way to get them in line with other more respectable condi builds. One of the first steps in nerfing condi Mesmer should be done by nerfing perplexity runes. It has 2 easily accessible/low cooldown damage sources (too much confusion spam) to one of thé if not thé strongest condition. (Confusion is one of the strongest damage dealing conditions plus it somewhat forces the enemy to slow down his gameplay). Everyone can tell this rune is a problem and dispite 2 patches (15/04/2014 and 26/07/2016) Anet has failed to properly nerf it.

DeceiverX.8361:

a major problem is that almost all condition damage trait lines are defensive […]

Huh? Which traitlines are you talking about? Usually it is 2 offensive traitlines (1 condi and 1 power oriented, sometimes mixed up), 2 defensive (1 selfish, 1 support oriented), 1 class mechanic oriented traitline and 1 elite traitline. Offensive condi traitlines are not more defensive in general than power traitlines and defensive traitlines are not more condi oriented than power oriented.
Only very few common builds use offensive traitlines, regardless of power or condi.

Dawdler.8521:

Jeknar.6184:

Dawdler.8521:

So yes, dire/trailblazers should be removed from the game. It really cant be stated enough. There are no excuses, no defense in favor of full condi and full bunker gearstats. Anet already removed dire in PvP because it pretty much ruined it. If Anet cant see that this should be removed in WvW as well they are fools.

The stats were removed from PvP because the PvP team can simply add/remove amulets at will without having to wait for balance team to do somenthing. What can WvW do when their balance is tied to PvE? Unless you are proposing that WvW start using the amulet system (which I’m pretty sure most people don’t want) there is nothing that can be done about it.

Reset all current dire or trailblazer gear to be selectable between rampager, rabid, sinister, apothecary, carrion, viper or celestial (ie the remaining gear with condi, unless I forgot one). The system is already in the game.

There, was that really so hard?

They’re not going to remove gear stats from PVE (which they’d have to do, since PVE and WvW use the same gear) to placate you. Literally the only time they removed gear stats was because they changed Magic Find from being a gear-based stat to an account-based one and had to replace all the stat combinations that had it.

DeceiverX.8361:

Kamara.4187:

Balance is an issue period and needs to be considered across the board. Dire on a condi mesmer is not an issue unless a player hasn’t learned to target the main instead of a clone.

Lolwat.

This build has literally been widely-considered as by-far-and-large the single most overpowered small-scale build in the entire game even before HoT where it got even more boosted. At one point there was a video posted of a guy literally facerolling his keyboard and winning fights with it.

Condi mesmer when in non-tank armor isn’t inherently OP at all. The problem is when it runs so much durability and has so much immunity uptime, it doesn’t allow players windows of opportunity to punish the mesmer back. This is especially apparent on Chrono.

If they got rid of dire/TB entirely we’d see relative balance in condition builds; a major problem is that almost all condition damage trait lines are defensive because originally condition damage as a stat didn’t exist and was meant as a source of small damage for tanks to deal on builds with heavier condition access (which is why it ignores all armor).

Just No, no and No. Stop making stuff up to support your theory.

Yes OP you are 100% correct. They lower the skill floor as much as it can possibly go. They make fights an utter bore where I can’t be killed unless I’m focused by 3-4+ players for an extended period of time. When 2 dire/trailblazer opponents meet its the boringest fight ever created……you keep fighting till 1 or BOTH of you get bored and quit. For a game that has no death penalty and pretty much instant respawn, these stats are horrible.
Condi really is the meta, anyone telling you otherwise hasn’t played it and has no idea what proper condi zergs can do……it will BLOOOOW your mind. A proper bunker won’t save you from a proper condi attack. Aoe cc, boonstrip, condi bomb, done. Make a mistake? Don’t worry you take no damage anyways unless 4x as many enemy zerg members focus you with power damage.

it reallllly should be nerfed somehow. Or just not exist…..viper and sinister are a perfect balance that enables counterplay. If people played viper/sinister instead we wouldn’t have a problem, and fights wouldn’t last so long, and the servers would be less laggy.

Kamara.4187:

Balance is an issue period and needs to be considered across the board. Dire on a condi mesmer is not an issue unless a player hasn’t learned to target the main instead of a clone. I die plenty on my mesmer. In fact I get few kills on her because if I do come out ahead everyone then outruns me and gets away. Trailblazers? I couldn’t tell you because I just started running it on one of my toons and have yet to figure out if it helps or not.

Truth though? If your maining an Ele your class could use some serious love from the game Godz. That’s my honest opinion.

This HAS to be a troll post…..like seriously. If you can’t 1vs2 competent people on a dire mesmer without dying ur playing it wrong. And ur ele needs serious love? Ya tank/condi/support/aoe-dmg ele def dont do their jobs well…..

Cerby.1069:

Yes OP you are 100% correct. They lower the skill floor as much as it can possibly go. They make fights an utter bore where I can’t be killed unless I’m focused by 3-4+ players for an extended period of time. When 2 dire/trailblazer opponents meet its the boringest fight ever created……you keep fighting till 1 or BOTH of you get bored and quit. For a game that has no death penalty and pretty much instant respawn, these stats are horrible.
Condi really is the meta, anyone telling you otherwise hasn’t played it and has no idea what proper condi zergs can do……it will BLOOOOW your mind. A proper bunker won’t save you from a proper condi attack. Aoe cc, boonstrip, condi bomb, done. Make a mistake? Don’t worry you take no damage anyways unless 4x as many enemy zerg members focus you with power damage.

it reallllly should be nerfed somehow. Or just not exist…..viper and sinister are a perfect balance that enables counterplay. If people played viper/sinister instead we wouldn’t have a problem, and fights wouldn’t last so long, and the servers would be less laggy.

Kamara.4187:

Balance is an issue period and needs to be considered across the board. Dire on a condi mesmer is not an issue unless a player hasn’t learned to target the main instead of a clone. I die plenty on my mesmer. In fact I get few kills on her because if I do come out ahead everyone then outruns me and gets away. Trailblazers? I couldn’t tell you because I just started running it on one of my toons and have yet to figure out if it helps or not.

Truth though? If your maining an Ele your class could use some serious love from the game Godz. That’s my honest opinion.

This HAS to be a troll post…..like seriously. If you can’t 1vs2 competent people on a dire mesmer without dying ur playing it wrong. And ur ele needs serious love? Ya tank/condi/support/aoe-dmg ele def dont do their jobs well…..

No not a troll post. 1v1 I hold my own with the build but like I said if I am coming out ahead most out run my mesmer and get away. If that is not the issue there is an insane amount of condi cleanse to counter the build. I can escape a 2v1, but no I’ve never won a 2v1 on that build. Skill-wise I’m average with not the best rural internet connection (I live in the sticks). The build is fun to play, but it is a very slow killer, and an even slower runner. The biggest challenges my opponents face is nailing me down, which there are several classes that can do that with ease. Its a frustrating fight for those that can’t keep up with where I’ll appear next, but for those that understand the class its a short fight because they quickly re-target my avatar and finish her off pretty quick.

There’s nothing wrong with Dire or Trailblazer the same way there’s nothing wrong with conditions.

There are specific skills, traits and utilities that need to be adjusted. Not a nerf across the board.

Mesmer needs to have something done with it’s ability to maintain nearly permanent Confusion and Torment stacks, for example.

D/D evade spam Thief is irritating but not OP. It’s a very troublesome and annoying build but no where near the level of broken that condition bunker Chrono is. There’s a reason it has been meta in roaming for so long – because it’s faceroll easy and extremely effective. It would be ridiculous to nerf/remove an entire stat set from the game just because one profession gets so much benefit from it.

Yes other professions can use Dire/Trailblazer effectively as well but there are far more OP power builds out there than there are condition. The condition builds just seem to stand out more because people hate them a lot more. They’re irrelevant in zerging, unless you’re a Necromancer, and Thieves and Mesmers are the only ones that ever use them in roaming. Burn Guardians use Carrion or Viper, condition Engineer uses Viper or Rabid and Druid uses Viper, Rabid, Apothecary or something with Precision/Healing Power involved.

Spurnshadow.3678:

Large group, trailblazers is garbbage due to the expertise. Its a totally wasted stat because you’re fighting against tons of cleanses and resistance. If you’re trying to have a condi meta, then you need as much direct condi damagage as possible.

What….

Deli.1302:

Spurnshadow.3678:

Large group, trailblazers is garbbage due to the expertise. Its a totally wasted stat because you’re fighting against tons of cleanses and resistance. If you’re trying to have a condi meta, then you need as much direct condi damagage as possible.

What….

Condi duration doesn’t matter large scale fighting. It will be removed before the extra 30% duration you got from blazers takes effect. Not too complex.

Ballads.2509:

DeceiverX.8361:

Kamara.4187:

Balance is an issue period and needs to be considered across the board. Dire on a condi mesmer is not an issue unless a player hasn’t learned to target the main instead of a clone.

Lolwat.

This build has literally been widely-considered as by-far-and-large the single most overpowered small-scale build in the entire game even before HoT where it got even more boosted. At one point there was a video posted of a guy literally facerolling his keyboard and winning fights with it.

Condi mesmer when in non-tank armor isn’t inherently OP at all. The problem is when it runs so much durability and has so much immunity uptime, it doesn’t allow players windows of opportunity to punish the mesmer back. This is especially apparent on Chrono.

If they got rid of dire/TB entirely we’d see relative balance in condition builds; a major problem is that almost all condition damage trait lines are defensive because originally condition damage as a stat didn’t exist and was meant as a source of small damage for tanks to deal on builds with heavier condition access (which is why it ignores all armor).

Just No, no and No. Stop making stuff up to support your theory.

Go back to 2013-era threads. The PU condi roamer you see in the roaming meta is literally the same build, and has not once changed. The chronomancer version obviously makes some changes but it’s very similar in concept.

As far as condition builds running defensive lines…
Mesmer:
Dueling – Mixed and replaced with chrono on its variant; 2/3 of selected traits are defensive in nature.
Illusions – The condi cleanse and utility line required by all builds.
Chaos – All defense. Passive regen, projectile hate, passive prot/prot, prot on weapon skill use, boon duration, defensive boon access for camping stealth.

Ranger:
BM/Druid/NM – I don’t even think an explanation is needed – it’s all defense.

Berserker:
Defense – Self-explanatory
Discipline – immob cleanses, grouped condition cleanse utility, adrenal health synergy.
Berserker – DoA/EC, formerly Tactics which increased toughness, healing power, healing on shouts.

Thief:
Acrobatics – THE defensive line
Trickery – Required utiltiy line for all builds, Uncatchable for aoe cripple on dodge, vigor on steal.
Daredevil – All defensive: Increased defensive utility uptime and endurance gain, heal on dodge, cleanse on dodge, endurance on steal, immune to movement conditions or condition damage on dodge

DH:
Valor – Passive Aegis, Condi removal (meditation), aegis and block reset on heal, AoE bonus toughness, block synergy, healing on meditations.
DH- AoE slow on trap, passive AoE Aegis, condi cleanse.

Ele:
I mean, enough said.

Scrapper:
Alchemy – Passive Elixir B, passive prot on CC, passive conditions to boons, passive elixir S, condi removal on elixirs and boon duration.
Scrapper – Prot on heal, superspeed on revive, healing when mobile, CC duration reduction, stacking toughness and reduced incoming condition damage bonus.

Necro/reaper is the most offensively-oriented, granted it runs shroud which innately scales best from tankier stats anyways…

Rev:
Mallyx – A given/requirement to deal damage, lots and lots of resistance.
Retribution – Passive Endurance gains, DR from ranged attacks, stab on evade, passive Taunt and prot on CC, DR below 75% hp, passive 50% DR when below half.
Herald – Convert damage to healing, endurance regeneration, boon duration, extra stability.

Almost all of these run more passives, defensive lines, etc. than their power variants. Especially true on Mesmer/thief.

As far as history of the game goes, this is just fact: condition damage was originally not a stat on any armor combination. Like there’s no point in arguing because that’s literally how the game was made in terms of the old trait configurations and some since-yet-changed weapon skill designs.

I just wish torment confusion and burning went back to there pre hot strength

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

There’s nothing wrong with Dire or Trailblazer the same way there’s nothing wrong with conditions.

There are specific skills, traits and utilities that need to be adjusted. Not a nerf across the board.

Oh you mean sort of like how we are trying argue that certain specific OP gearstats need to be adjusted instead of nerfing condi across the board?

I see…

DeceiverX.8361:

Ranger:
BM/Druid/NM – I don’t even think an explanation is needed – it’s all defense.

Ummm that’s a power build…..
Ranger condi builds need either skirmishing (completely offensive line) or wilderness survival, most use both. Also, despite the armor they have far less survivability than the power builds because they have to drop boon duration for expertise and run weapons/utilities that don’t provide the same kind of sustain/mobility/utility.

Spurnshadow.3678:

Necro: Really op with condi. Is able to apply burns, poison, and bleeds on a regular and massive basis with a little torment thrown in, while corrupting boons, which applies lots more different types of condis. Impossible to cleanse everything. All the while having very high survivablity. The only downside is the time it takes to ramp up the damage, but once it does, it’s over. Needs precision

Yes those massive condi stacks are scary. Condi reapper skills are so hard to dodge. Staff marks give huge stacks of bleed and poison and you can’t avoid them because those are unblockable. Scepter 2 and offhand dagger 5 skills have so short cast times that brains can’t send impulses fast enough. I fail to dodge that reaper shroud 5 skill every time too. Then reaper just use that skill 4 and spin like crazy while i can’t move (because only girls and french players use stunbreakers) and i get like 12 stacks of poison and i don’t have any condi removal because i am real man.

I’m all for deleting dire / trailblazer, as long as we also delete soldiers, commanders, minstrels, etc.

And most of all, delete zerkers. I want that skilless PVE crap out of my PVP modes, completely, totally and utterly. So sick and tired of dumb scrubs setting themselves up for one shots (or single combo deaths), and instead of actually even remotely tryign to do something about it coming here and filling these forums with their utter crap complaints.

DeceiverX.8361:

DH:
Valor – Passive Aegis, Condi removal (meditation), aegis and block reset on heal, AoE bonus toughness, block synergy, healing on meditations.
DH- AoE slow on trap, passive AoE Aegis, condi cleanse.

Most of this is wrong

I’m honestly glad that as far as I’m concerned, ANet doesn’t give a flying kitten how much you cry about Dire/Trailblazer or conditions in general. They’re here to stay. So get gud or get dead.

You can corrupt or remove resistance thus resistance isn’t absolute, unless you have an army made up of herald.

DeceiverX.8361:

Almost all of these run more passives, defensive lines, etc. than their power variants. Especially true on Mesmer/thief.

Pretty much all of those traitlines you have listed are run by power builds. Engi, ranger, dh usually use more defensive traits on power builds than condi builds, other classes usually use the same amount of defensive traitlines. Rev is the only true exception (and condi rev sucks so what?) and thief you can count too, but acro/sa are less used by power builds just because they don’t need it and they gain more from da (which has some defensive aspect too, especially with improv).

LetoII.3782:

DeceiverX.8361:

DH:
Valor – Passive Aegis, Condi removal (meditation), aegis and block reset on heal, AoE bonus toughness, block synergy, healing on meditations.
DH- AoE slow on trap, passive AoE Aegis, condi cleanse.

Most of this is wrong

Taken straight from the highest-ranked condition build for guardian from metabattle.

Removing DIRE/Trailblazer would have next to no impact on how condition builds work and would only lead to calls to remove any armor types that provide for more armor and or vitality on a condition build.

It simply ill thought out and premised on people who just rely on the existing meta as the be all to end all.

Just as example. The d/d condition thief I played using that DB spam used two armor types. he tried dire and them tried shamans/apothecary mix. The latter was more effective. While damage output dropped slightly, survival went way up. Every DB was getting near a 2k heal.

I have been toying with a condition build berserker and find Settlers works just as well if not better then does dire or TB. Why? Base durations of conditions outside burn are already high and there a number of traits that extend burns. TB not needed. While a hit to health taken toughness is in fact higher then in Dire and the heals off adrenal/healing signet and regen which are almost always running heals more effectively with some healing power.

Again I find this build has more “staying power” then dire and the hit to condition damage output not all that significant.

The underlying reason people want these armors removed is not for questions of balance. It is because too many are from the old Zerker school where peoples in Zerkers ruled over all and combat was all about getting that one big shot in to take someone out. They can no longer do it and now must surivive longer in a fight. It the very opposite of “we want more skill in the game”.

Prevailing in a 9 second fight and winning premised on landing the first 18k damage hit does not mean one is more skilled.

Hi new players,

Condition is heavily buffed (by nerfing anti-condition food, buffing condition skills etc) in attempt to boost condition usage since previously conditions are easily countered. However, conditions have been buffed way too much such that there have been a series of slight nerfing here and there for conditions.

Even then, condition can be too much for general wvw because of certain skill called epidemic. Why is epidemic so superior? In power-base fighting, it is very much avoidable as we can simply move out of the aoes or block it or healing or damage mitigation through armor, food, utility, traits, etc. In other words, even bad pugs can be carried to certain extend.

Condition on the other hand, there are options but these options are not easy to be executed and more limited as compared to power-base, especially in pug wvw. Why? Because of “I want to play how I like”. Condition while easy to be countered with resistance or proper cleanse, if general wvw have players using skills or classes not doing either, condition will rule over them because one badly conditioned player is all “epidemic” need to spread the condition around and it cannot be blocked except by dodging or running 600 apart but reality is, you not gonna find a zerg with individuals of 600 distance apart from each other since they will be grinded down by power-base classes.

Condition still inferior in gvg as the team are designed to counter conditions, without a weak link.

Hmmmm, does anyone think toughness reducing condi damage would help? I’m in no way saying I know the direct/perfect solution to GW2 Balance issues, but maybe just allowing every 1000 armor to reduce condi damage by 10% would go a long way. OR allow protection to reduce condi damage, and just leave toughness as it currently is? Or condi damage reduction runes and food?

Church Monkey.2791:

Hmmmm, does anyone think toughness reducing condi damage would help? I’m in no way saying I know the direct/perfect solution to GW2 Balance issues, but maybe just allowing every 1000 armor to reduce condi damage by 10% would go a long way. OR allow protection to reduce condi damage, and just leave toughness as it currently is? Or condi damage reduction runes and food?

I do not think this a solution as it shifts too many of the advantages to the heavy armor classes.

Heavy armor already has a built in advantage and conditions ignoring toughness was one way those in ligher could neutralize the same.

The so called “condition meta” is overstated and in my opinion deliberately so by peoples still fixated on power zerker. There are specific condition sources/types that might be overtuned but these need to be addressed serparately rather then “lets nerf conditions”.

DeceiverX is right that Condi Chrono is mostly OP in WvW. The class is easy to play effectively, has loads of defensive counters and has a great depth of play. It is one of the few effective roaming builds that has multiple trait line paths. I play this build and a condi int thief… Condi Chrono is way stronger and much easier to play.

Babazhook is also right that many builds simply don’t need Dire or Trailblazer. Rabid works great for most classes. Clearly not as defensive but that is easily countered in the current meta with class mechanics.

Its not so much that dire and traiblazer combos are a problem it the fact that you only need one offensive combo of the 3-4 to do good dmg as condi (traiblazer get the higher duration but that not as big of a factor to condi more for the soft cc or cover condis) where power dmg must have at least 2 to do any thing beyond a wet noodle and all 3 if you want to do real dmg. Condi dmg is to easy to hit hard in wvw with out any real counters.

What it comes down to is that power dmg (after siege is now effected by condi dmg) is no worth running any more as the main killing tool for players.

Power user need to land one hit to make huge dmg. Condi user need to land 8 skills and spam autoattack 30 sec to make huge dmg.

Correct me if I’m wrong but, aren’t most people rolling power builds? If condi is so OP why call for nerf? Why not just nerf certain builds that benefit way too much from tank condi armors? For condi their is conterplay on account it’s damage over time. Against instant 10k crits there is not much counterplay.

First we remove trailblazer and dire, next someone will notice how viper and berserker are too much damage oriented then we remove that, then someone complains that minstrel and nomad are impossible to kill… and then we remove that and eventually we all end up with celestial gear. And then we will see complaints how celestial is OP for certain classes and everyone just starts running naked. But then SJWs start yelling how they are offended and need their safe space. And then everyone gets their own map to play alone. And then uh.. we remove… uhhh… stuff.