Guild Wars 2

why is it players complain about night-capping then proceed to suggest extremely socially unacceptable ‘solutions’ such as buffs that are active for THEIR night time-zones only? do they want to negate play time for countries existing half way across the globe from them? do they not want us to play as well?

- shutting down WvW for specific time periods
- changing score based on players in map
- disallowing certain mechanics to be used at X time

i think these suggestions have flaws that drive the community away but i also believe the root of the problem for stated night-caps primarily consists of the current state of the game mode that is wvw… players have left this game mode for various reasons cutting down population (esp post HoT expansion).

my intent is not to completely blame ANET for bad wvw features but i question if all the changes they have made prior & many silence for lengthy time is what has caused the population to drop thus leading to night-caps more frequently, for those who are still playing…

…if healthy game-mode of wvw is large population of players we would not be complaining of said night-caps because many players would be online around the clock, globally. sadly this is not the case because many flaws in wvw game mode and players have abandoned; down-hill spiral inevitably with our pleas fallen on deaf ears.

i have naught suggestions for improvement for issues regarding night-caps or population balance but i do state players need to think before they suggest such ‘ideas’ as these rule out players from across the world.

sometimes your night is our day time, and we want to play, too.

please keep discussion civil.

Ppl are too spoiled in gw2. The current patch is what some ppl here been asking, yet you can still see the amt of complains popping out here and there.

Anyway, this is just my 2cents about nightcapping. The current upgrading system still feels too fast. One timezone coverage is enough to upgrade everything to t3, creating imbalanced matchup against some servers. If they extend the upgrading time to lets say 2-3days, the upgrading/flipping responsibility is more spread out across different timezones.

BlueBoy.1236:

Ppl are too spoiled in gw2. The current patch is what some ppl here been asking, yet you can still see the amt of complains popping out here and there.

Anyway, this is just my 2cents about nightcapping. The current upgrading system still feels too fast. One timezone coverage is enough to upgrade everything to t3, creating imbalanced matchup against some servers. If they extend the upgrading time to lets say 2-3days, the upgrading/flipping responsibility is more spread out across different timezones.

If it took that long to upgrade something, then nothing will ever get upgraded. It’s too easy to flip a T1 or T2 structure with the current buffed superior siege damages. All you’ll do is make it easier to karma train, which I’m kind of OK with as it promotes more activity, but it doesn’t promote activity that will actually assure the longevity of WvW, which is the large scale combat.

As an east coast Australian player, I’m very much the quintessential “nightcapper” on NA servers but we don’t have Oceanic or SEA servers, so we have to be on NA. Being on T1 and not on Jade Quarry though, means I have an extremely target rich environment

Nightcapping is something people complained about like 2 years ago. It doesn’t matter really anymore. Most just want to actually find people in WvW. Outside of EB, it is hard to find fights anymore.

Of course ANET is always 2 years late, so they are talking about night capping now.

Because they don’t play those hours.

This again!!!!!!!!

If night capping is a problem, you should come to T1 where there is 24/7 action. All servers have EU/OCX/SEA guilds in eb.

The problem of off-time-capping is so obvious:

If 5% of people (I guess it’s even much less) dominate the score, 95% of people loose interest in score. If they loose interest in score, they lost interest in winning, which sooner or later means loosing interest in the game mode and go elsewhere.

WvW is in the bad state it is, because most people have no influence on the outcome of a match

Off-time domination of PPT is one of the mayor forces that destroyed WvW (the other is man-power imbalance)

Imagine a fiendly soccer match with 20 vs 20 on the field. The ball is going back and forth, people are trying to score and are having a good time. Eventually, everyone leave the field and the score is 10 vs 8. Lets continue the match tomorrow.

The next day, they run out on the field again for a rematch. The score is now 10 vs 288. 1 guy has been kicking the ball into an empty goal during the night.

While you are wondering how the kitten you are supposed to make up those points being matched against the full strength of the other team, the fan crowd just yells “dont kittening dis that guy, he is as much worth as you even if he can take 280 points and you 20 people cant even score more than 10.”

mind blown

Because it makes part of the game mode pointless to play for.
During the day, every effort you make is undone at night, or you can just kitten during part of the day, including prime time, tick 400+ at night and the MU ends up totally one sided, sometimes before the weekend is over.

This is the EU side, we play normal hours usually, there are night and day players, but the amount of players has shrunk, nobody try hards 24 hours anymore.

CrimsonNeonite.1048:

Because it makes part of the game mode useless. During the day, every effort you make is undone at night, someone ticks 400+ at night and the MU ends up totally one sided, sometimes before the weekend is over.

Deal with it, its not all about NA. North America isnt the only country in the world. Request OCX/SEA servers and it’ll be all good. But otherwise, recruit more night time players for your server, actually be productive and trying. Rather than just shutting out the problem.

Jai.3058:

CrimsonNeonite.1048:

Because it makes part of the game mode useless. During the day, every effort you make is undone at night, someone ticks 400+ at night and the MU ends up totally one sided, sometimes before the weekend is over.

Deal with it, its not all about NA. North America isnt the only country in the world. Request OCX/SEA servers and it’ll be all good. But otherwise, recruit more night time players for your server.

There aren’t enough. No one would complain, if the amount of player would be equal in all time-zones. But they are not!

So the big question is: “Do you want to play a game where winning/loosing is determined when you sleep?”

No one wants this (you do not as well, as your post shows), that’s why it is bad game design to average the rating of a team over all time-zones. And one of the solutions proposed was : Time-sliced matches. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Nerf-the-domination-of-Coverage
which should give everyone better (in the sense of more fights against people and less against doors) matches.

The other solution is mega-server as in EotM. 50 maps in NA-prime, 2 maps in OCX/SEA prime. I guess the mayor overhaul will go into this direction.

My personal problem with nightcap is less about the amount of points you gain but rather how your entire day is ruined, because it’s almost impossible to get enough people for capping something back if everything is t3 and fully sieged-even if the night cappers are long gone.

Dayra.7405:

Jai.3058:

CrimsonNeonite.1048:

Because it makes part of the game mode useless. During the day, every effort you make is undone at night, someone ticks 400+ at night and the MU ends up totally one sided, sometimes before the weekend is over.

Deal with it, its not all about NA. North America isnt the only country in the world. Request OCX/SEA servers and it’ll be all good. But otherwise, recruit more night time players for your server.

There aren’t enough. No one would complain, if the amount of player would be equal in all time-zones. But they are not!

So the big question is: “Do you want to play a game where winning/loosing is determined when you sleep?”

No one wants this (you do not as well, as your post shows), that’s why it is bad game design to average the rating of a team over all time-zones. And one of the solutions proposed was : Time-sliced matches. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Nerf-the-domination-of-Coverage
which should give everyone better (in the sense of more fights against people and less against doors) matches.

The other solution is mega-server as in EotM. 50 maps in NA-prime, 2 maps in OCX/SEA prime. I guess the mayor overhaul will go into this direction.

Its still not fair to just exclude us. Its not our fault. Make them make new servers or bust.

Also the game is heavily decided when we sleep too, so its not you who wakes up to losing. Its not you who is relied on half the time to win the week on reset our reset night. Which our SEA does that for us.

OMG I can’t believe someone in 1 time zone wants to kitten the rest of the world if they don’t play on ‘THEIR’ time. How selfish can someone be?!

Well 2 hour matches would be solution.

StormageddonBK.9842:

OMG I can’t believe someone in 1 time zone wants to kitten the rest of the world if they don’t play on ‘THEIR’ time. How selfish can someone be?!

Yes, if 700 people play in one timezone and 1 person play in another timezone, how dare those 700 people be so selfish to think their efforts equal that of 1 guy?!

Arguing “selfish” behaviour is pointless. If players can exploit something to win, they will. Otherwise we wouldnt be having this discussion, because nightcappers would honor a balanced matchup and play EoTM instead. This isnt an issue nor can it be solved – the wild score curves however, can be solved.

StormageddonBK.9842:

OMG I can’t believe someone in 1 time zone wants to kitten the rest of the world if they don’t play on ‘THEIR’ time. How selfish can someone be?!

Yes I wonder about that as well.

Why the hell do OCX or other non-prime-player need an impact multiplicand of 10-100 per player? How selfish is it to fight with no arguments against the reduction of this privilege?

Junkpile.7439:

Well 2 hour matches would be solution.

3-4 hour would be better: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Proposal-for-a-new-competive-WvW

(and yes, this proposal would also allow matches that happen when I sleep)

Players who complain about “night capping” just do not understand that there is no such thing. How many times do we have to tell them that the world is round.. I mean come on guys and gals – we’ve moved on in the last century or two.

There is definitely an impact caused by population time imbalance, and I accept this. Like all population imbalances it causes problems in some match ups, and it would be good to find a way to even out populations across servers AND across times. Like all population imbalances it is caused by player choices too – and that makes it hard to fix properly.

The term “night capping” is offensive to many players whose prime play time is not the same as the “peak population” times. Players who use the phrase are defining themselves as selfish and arrogant (night is defined as when I am asleep and the fact that the rest of the world is in daylight is irrelevant. What? Really?!).

To resolve population-time-imbalance we do NOT need penalties or other biasing.We simply need a roughly even spread of players at each time.
So if your server has a lack of players on at a particular time then be welcoming and encouraging on the forums and in game. If you spend your time complaining about players from another time zone don’t be surprised if they don’t want to help you out.

And remember this also – if OCX players (for example) or EU players (for example) on a NA server have grouped together so they can play with their friends at the same time as their friends – tough. It’s very likely what you’ve done yourself – but somehow they are wrong to do so and you’re not? Hmmm….

Yuffi.2430:

Players who complain about “night capping” just do not understand that there is no such thing. How many times do we have to tell them that the world is round.. I mean come on guys and gals – we’ve moved on in the last century or two.

There is definitely an impact caused by population time imbalance, and I accept this. Like all population imbalances it causes problems in some match ups, and it would be good to find a way to even out populations across servers AND across times. Like all population imbalances it is caused by player choices too – and that makes it hard to fix properly.

The term “night capping” is offensive to many players whose prime play time is not the same as the “peak population” times. Players who use the phrase are defining themselves as selfish and arrogant (night is defined as when I am asleep and the fact that the rest of the world is in daylight is irrelevant. What? Really?!).

To resolve population-time-imbalance we do NOT need penalties or other biasing.We simply need a roughly even spread of players at each time.
So if your server has a lack of players on at a particular time then be welcoming and encouraging on the forums and in game. If you spend your time complaining about players from another time zone don’t be surprised if they don’t want to help you out.

And remember this also – if OCX players (for example) or EU players (for example) on a NA server have grouped together so they can play with their friends at the same time as their friends – tough. It’s very likely what you’ve done yourself – but somehow they are wrong to do so and you’re not? Hmmm….

The only reason people seem think this is an issue is because it is a poor design. If they only have enough servers open that will allow people to have players to play with and against 24/7 and then add “temporary” event maps in play during peak hours and remove them during non peak hours, they would solve the problem long term allowing players to always have players to play with and against no matter what time they play and also allow for there to be minimal queue during peak hours this would not even be discussed.

If players do not have people to play with and against no matter what time they log in to play, the game is broken and needs fixed to remedy that. Players deserve to be able to have a quality experience whenever it is convenient for them to play, not have the game only cater to specific time zones unless the game is only available in those time zones.

I agree the term " nightcapping" is absurd to begin with on a game running 24/7.

The real question is why do some people get so hot and bothered over terminology when you know very well what the actual problem is?

Chaba.5410:

The real question is why do some people get so hot and bothered over terminology when you know very well what the actual problem is?

The actual problem is too many servers open and not using a temp map rotation to eliminate queues during busy hours. The " terminology" is absurd is the issue for a game that is running 24/7. Many games run 24/7 and people do not cry about imaginary “night capping” on those due to the game actually having players on every server open regardless of what time you log in.

It was a term invented to avoid discussing the actual problem.

I like the idea of retaining servers and using over flow maps for large population times. As long as this doesn’t result in guilds or groups being split between two maps too much I think it could be interesting.

Yuffi.2430:

I like the idea of retaining servers and using over flow maps for large population times. As long as this doesn’t result in guilds or groups being split between two maps too much I think it could be interesting.

Instead of having EoTM as an overflow, just put more EBG maps in actual play during peak hours, allowing for full scoring of points during a specified time limit then letting them go away once population declines. They can add as many or as few as they like during the times needed.. Like have it determined by the number of people hitting a certain number on all 3 servers in the match to trigger an overflow map to appear to keep it balanced. This way, no matter when you play you actually get to play instead of sit in queue or have no one to play with or against.

This prevents too much ground to cover during off hours and too little maps open during peak and people always available to play with and against either way.

One problem I would foresee (on first glance) is that some players such as myself enjoy smaller group play. I’ve tried big blobs in EotM, and I can spam 1,1,1,1 as good as anyone, but I feel that smaller group encounters more often revolve around skill and strategy and I enjoy this challenge.
I would like to be able to play in a map where I’m likely to be in a group of 3 to 15 (or so) taking on other groups in the same range. I know I’m not alone in this desire – it’s one reason why some of us have stayed in the lower tier servers rather than transfer.

Not sure how your proposed system would allow this but I hope there would be a way. Perhaps there could be a selectable designated “lower population” instance?
Or perhaps the default maps might have a lower cap and the overflow maps a much higher population cap (I’m thinking that when you have a large influx of players log on they will be looking for big group fights?).

Yuffi.2430:

One problem I would foresee (on first glance) is that some players such as myself enjoy smaller group play. I’ve tried big blobs in EotM, and I can spam 1,1,1,1 as good as anyone, but I feel that smaller group encounters more often revolve around skill and strategy and I enjoy this challenge.
I would like to be able to play in a map where I’m likely to be in a group of 3 to 15 (or so) taking on other groups in the same range. I know I’m not alone in this desire – it’s one reason why some of us have stayed in the lower tier servers rather than transfer.

Not sure how your proposed system would allow this but I hope there would be a way. Perhaps there could be a selectable designated “lower population” instance?
Or perhaps the default maps might have a lower cap and the overflow maps a much higher population cap (I’m thinking that when you have a large influx of players log on they will be looking for big group fights?).

It would still allow for that, Even on T1, the first thing I did when I got here long ago was go solo QL from BG.. The best way to havoc/ roam on higher populated servers is to coordinate attacks with the zerg. If the zerg is hitting one side, you hit the other.. You just need more cooperation/ coordination than on lower tiers. The big group fights are still there, as well as roamers and havoc.

The human mind looks for any excuse other then blaming them self for not wining.

lil devils x.6071:

Chaba.5410:

The real question is why do some people get so hot and bothered over terminology when you know very well what the actual problem is?

The actual problem is too many servers open and not using a temp map rotation to eliminate queues during busy hours. The " terminology" is absurd is the issue for a game that is running 24/7. Many games run 24/7 and people do not cry about imaginary “night capping” on those due to the game actually having players on every server open regardless of what time you log in.

It was a term invented to avoid discussing the actual problem.

Every time a thread like this pops up, the majority of the discussion ends up being someone lecturing others on why not to use the term “night capping” instead of the actual problem. It gets absurd.

Chaba.5410:

lil devils x.6071:

Chaba.5410:

The real question is why do some people get so hot and bothered over terminology when you know very well what the actual problem is?

The actual problem is too many servers open and not using a temp map rotation to eliminate queues during busy hours. The " terminology" is absurd is the issue for a game that is running 24/7. Many games run 24/7 and people do not cry about imaginary “night capping” on those due to the game actually having players on every server open regardless of what time you log in.

It was a term invented to avoid discussing the actual problem.

Every time a thread like this pops up, the majority of the discussion ends up being someone lecturing others on why not to use the term “night capping” instead of the actual problem.

I offer an actual solution that works AND complain about the atrocious term.

Chaba.5410:

The real question is why do some people get so hot and bothered over terminology when you know very well what the actual problem is?

No use arguing with them. Almost everyone understands “night cap” equal off peak scoring where a minority of people in one timezone outweigh the majority in prime.

The solution would have been OCX and sea server clusters from the start, but too late for that….

While ppt / scoring may not mean much to many vets, it does encourage / discourage the casual Pvx type to play based on the score…..

lil devils x.6071:

I offer an actual solution that works .

Unfortunately your solution doesn’t work very well with the current maps. And we all know what happens when ANet makes new maps.

But week has 7 days, so there can be a rotation, e.g. 1st off-time only green BL, 2nd only blue BL, 3rd only red BL, 4th only EB, 5th off-time only green BL, 6th only blue BL, 7th only red BL. A second (third, 4th) maps is added if 2 of the 3 server have queue on the existing maps.

Players should receive rewards for participating with sportsmanship. Switching and removing pieces from the table when nobody is looking isn’t behavior that should be rewarded.

Dayra.7405:

lil devils x.6071:

I offer an actual solution that works .

Unfortunately your solution doesn’t work very well with the current maps. And we all know what happens when ANet makes new maps.

But week has 7 days, so there can be a rotation, e.g. 1st off-time only green BL, 2nd only blue BL, 3rd only red BL, 4th only EB, 5th off-time only green BL, 6th only blue BL, 7th only red BL. A second (third, 4th) maps is added if 2 of the 3 server have queue on the existing maps.

unfortunately WvW doesn’t work with the current maps, neither does server balance.. maybe they should fix the maps eh? Anet didn’t try to solve any problems when they made the new maps, they just created MORE problems. Seems like they were more concerned with making bouncy PvE maps than WvW maps. Maybe they need a different approach this time?

I dotn feel so called Nightcapping is the issue, its the way the score is done in wvw that screws everyone over. ive always thought that PPT only hands advantage to those who have most numbers more of the time, so imo i have always believed that PPC ( points per cap) would be better balance, night capping would then have the same limit as rest of server during prime, so no matter how long its held for with no enemy around to contest the +695 score they can hold for 6-8 hours, they will only still score a set number of points due to this. also i feel score could be contributed to via successfully defending a objective and ofc PPK.

but meh you please one person you then annoy another, cant win/win always.

Then again tbh the score is pretty irrelevant nowadays, you get the same for winning as loosing, if you do win and go up unless you got plenty and plenty of people, you get slapped back down by bigger blobs in a week anyway. ive learned to ignore the overall scores and just focusing on having fun….at least try too

When you spend 3 hours defending + upgrading a keep waypoint only to find it night capped the next day, its pretty lame. Its basically a waste of 3 hours, not to mention that it kills progression. I’m sure it wasnt a problem the first time it happened, or even the first ten times, but give it a year and people will start to get angry.
Night capping is just a symptom. The real problem is that there arent servers for different parts of the world.

Stand The Wall.6987:

When you spend 3 hours defending + upgrading a keep waypoint only to find it night capped the next day, its pretty lame. Its basically a waste of 3 hours, not to mention that it kills progression. I’m sure it wasnt a problem the first time it happened, or even the first ten times, but give it a year and people will start to get angry.
Night capping is just a symptom. The real problem is that there arent servers for different parts of the world.

There are servers for different parts of the world.. the issue is not everyone works/plays the same hours. When people on the east coast US are going to bed, people from California are logging in, then you have the people who get off work at 2-3 am and come on to wind down just like those who get off work at 6 pm..

The game runs 24 hours, just like the real world and the real people in it. Some people work nights, some work days.. there is no point in trying to make someone in Florida play on a server in Germany with the lagfest from hell simply because they work nights.

The issue is every server that is open should be able to have population 24/7, and also not force people to wait in a queue to play during busy hours. There are remedies for this, they just have to want to solve it.

No matter what time you log in, you should have players to play with and against no matter what server you are on.

Dayra.7405:

Off-time

Here’s the problem in a nut shell, that people see anything but “their time” is “off time”.

Its a 24/7 game mode. You can’t expect it to be fair and balanced, especially in lower tiers. Communities used to be able to recruit to fill weak coverage, but with so many communities dying allot of the “off hours” players are migrating to higher tiers. At this point why do you even care about the score? There’s no rewards for wining, there’s no epic shiny wvw loot. If you are so bothered by the score move to servers/tiers that support that, or enjoy your smaller fights in lower tiers.

To go into this conversation deeper, we really have to look at the availability of potential players for a 24/7 game mode. The map I attached is the best visual representation of potential players to the game. Now, if there was a map like this of actual GW2 WvW players, that would be amazing. Though only Anet could create such a thing.

The greatest division and creator of “off time” is having three regional data centers. It’s great for players ping times and lag but, it is still the greatest division for WvW.

lil devils x.6071:

Stand The Wall.6987:

When you spend 3 hours defending + upgrading a keep waypoint only to find it night capped the next day, its pretty lame. Its basically a waste of 3 hours, not to mention that it kills progression. I’m sure it wasnt a problem the first time it happened, or even the first ten times, but give it a year and people will start to get angry.
Night capping is just a symptom. The real problem is that there arent servers for different parts of the world.

There are servers for different parts of the world.. the issue is not everyone works/plays the same hours. When people on the east coast US are going to bed, people from California are logging in, then you have the people who get off work at 2-3 am and come on to wind down just like those who get off work at 6 pm..

The game runs 24 hours, just like the real world and the real people in it. Some people work nights, some work days.. there is no point in trying to make someone in Florida play on a server in Germany with the lagfest from hell simply because they work nights.

The issue is every server that is open should be able to have population 24/7, and also not force people to wait in a queue to play during busy hours. There are remedies for this, they just have to want to solve it.

No matter what time you log in, you should have players to play with and against no matter what server you are on.

^ this.

DeWolfe.2174:

Dayra.7405:

Off-time

Here’s the problem in a nut shell, that people see anything but “their time” is “off time”.

^^ double this.

People used to complain about nightcapping more back in the days when more people were under the illusion that points determined anything other than who you get to play next week.

The solution of scaling point contribution based on how many players the other servers can field at that hour (on average, to reduce the potential for exploitation) seems reasonable to me, but it’s only something we’re likely to see in the reboot. I suspect that who gets how many points for what is one of the easiest things to adjust, so perhaps they might be inclined to discuss that with the community?

(Maybe?)

DeWolfe.2174:

Dayra.7405:

Off-time

Here’s the problem in a nut shell, that people see anything but “their time” is “off time”.

No. Off-time is simply: whenever there aren’t enough people to play all maps. I’ve heard several server have now always off-time. Game play in off-time is mostly: each team has one chunk of people, they jump over the 4 maps, are in a race of turning stuff, and rarely meat each other.

Dayra.7405:

DeWolfe.2174:

Dayra.7405:

Off-time

Here’s the problem in a nut shell, that people see anything but “their time” is “off time”.

No. My time (morning) turned into off-time 2.5 years ago. Off-time is simply: whenever there aren’t enough people to play all maps. I’ve heard several server have now always off-time.

See… here’s the thing, who’s “morning” do you speak of? Also, what quantifies “enough people to play all maps?” You certainly do not need a map queue to “play the map”.

Do to geography, there are inherent time zones that have fewer players. This image helps illustrate that better maybe. That is not something to design around as that is equal to all servers. Organizing for that is a feature of WvW play.

Nice picture but it is only useful for GW2, if we would not have 3 leagues (NA, EU China).

On EU-server we have over 95% from UTC+0 till UTC+3 they all have morning at the same time,

WAR lasts 24 hours a day, no recess, no mercy…chosing the time of the attack comes under, in strategy, Initiative.

If your enemy attacks you at the times when you are weaker it is sound strategic thinking.

People complaining about the night cap belong to guilds/servers that are not able to cover the 24 hours period of a day.

Tough luck, if you are not strong enough you deserve to lose. Bye bye…

bye bye is correct, that is what most people already said when facing your opinion about WvW, RedBaron.

Cause its creating boring matchups.When one servers dominate other during peak hours,with nothing to fight,but nightwatch of other server is keeping score.Boring for both sides.One side has lil chance and geting overrun,the other wont get a better server and afk around spawns.Also waking up into fully upgraded WvW maps caped by nightwatch,leads to boring PvD recap ritual.This is pretty much destroying the whole fun part of WvW.

Nightcapping ruins fighting morale for the rest of the servers and makes people shun WvW altogether, when people turn away from something due to nightcapping (Which is a fact, like it or not) then yes, it does become a problem.