Guild Wars 2

In terms of RvR /WvW people like myself who have played both games can make this statement

first daoc . 15 $ a month for rvr in the past pre toa expansion / ea mythic . the rvr for that game was . EPIC

second gw2. no monthly fee for wvw , monthly updates , changes / balances , the wvw for this game is . Carebear

im starting to think that in terms of how things turn out in the end are going to be the opposite but not in every aspect .

for starters . gw2 is not going to change their policy on a monthly fee i assume and as for daoc , they still do the monthly fee so that has not changed nor will it ever .

but here is where i ponder the subtle changes .

where as daocs rvr started out as great and became a flop later on. i look at gw2 wvw as a flop and will turn out great .

point 1.
6 or 7 months in no rank system for wvw gw2 but they finally put it in .
daoc always had a rank system but ruined the ability to increase at low levels later only to be max level to finally get ranked higher ( opposite)

point 2.
Daoc has a place called darkness falls where as players who gained control of the rvr map could then enter the zone to earn tokens to buy armor /weapons , but ruined it later with toa expansion .
it’s been rumored that gw2 might install a “darkness falls zone” to lessen up the que times for wvw and give reason for players an incentive to do wvw to get armor / weapons that would be the same as dungeon armor / weapons or possible precursors
(opposite)

point 3. in daoc the games rvr system was ruined when they combined servers together which allowed the " Xrealmer" to join what ever winning side they wished for rvr later on .
Gw2 early had some “Xrealmers” but then changed it so that for players to transfer servers , they had to pay in order to get on another server to experience the WvW content of that server . ( Opposite)

if things continue the way i see it .. we might be looking at a mmo that might become the late great daoc . that all depends on the staff of arena net for their hard work .

and in that case . Godspeed arena net !!

I cant domument it, but I believe they didnt focus so much on WvW, because they underestimated how popular it would become and now that they know, they will focus more on it and try to improve it.

New wvw points system just means more PvDoor. And that is the problem with this game’s wvw… too many groups just farming. By giving more emphasis on killing players, instead of objectives, the game could have been changed significantly to give wvw’ers 2 options: flipping objectives for ppt, or killing players for wsp’s. Neither is exclusive of the other, but by putting the emphasis on objectives, you just take a stale game and make it…. more stale.

But wait, we have 8, 8 whole abilities with 5 tiers that are completely… boring. I understand not wanting to affect the game much (like RR’s in DAoC), but come on, 5% less damage to/from a guard? Does nobody have an imagination?

-Seriously disappointed in the changes it took so long to be made to wvw.

Lorn i can react on this since i did DAoC from start and even play it sometimes.

DAoC had a good rvr (wvw) system and still got it. Indeed they messed it up with ToA and more with New frontiers but they fixed most bad stuff from it. Even the kitten they did on DF.
The realm ranks wernt in from start but also entered after a while…few months so thats the same.

What i dont understand so far in GW2 is the following…..
How can a game like DAoC thats been released in 2001 since day one host over 1000 players in rvr (wvw) without lag (unless with the relic raid where more then 2000 players went in) and GW2 have so many restrictions.

Even now on primetime weekends there are epic lag free battles in DAoC with way more then 1000 players in the zone.

What GW2 should do….
Copy battlegrounds from DAoC like thidranki.
Copy keeps from DAoC. ….keeps and towers here are a joke to defend. Guard we all laugh at. Guards in DAoC kick your behind….Hard!
Give nice wvw rank abilities. Who cares that you can carry more wood for upgrades?

and my dream…
Create DF in this game. Dont try to improve it because its alrdy perfect. Copy paste and we happy. Man my infiltrator loved that place…and my scout does now.

This game is mechanically just like war hammer. Battle objective capping. Until there is a different set of abilities / armor only obtained via kills.. This game will promote only 20+ Zergs. Garbage.

Jscull.2514:

This game is mechanically just like war hammer. Battle objective capping. Until there is a different set of abilities / armor only obtained via kills.. This game will promote only 20+ Zergs. Garbage.

Alliance batles from Factions with walls!

would be so great if the Mist were a “box” WvW map :P
Guilds could conquer zones in a map as larger as tyria, built pré-selected castles (where those castle/tower models could be unlocked via Guild research). gawd so many concepts could be viable :S ……

Aeolus.3615:

Jscull.2514:

This game is mechanically just like war hammer. Battle objective capping. Until there is a different set of abilities / armor only obtained via kills.. This game will promote only 20+ Zergs. Garbage.

Alliance batles from Factions with walls!

would be so great if the Mist were a “box” WvW map :P
Guilds could conquer zones in a map as larger as tyria, built pré-selected castles (where those castle/tower models could be unlocked via Guild research). gawd so many concepts could be viable :S ……

I don’t disagree that would be sweet. Biggest piece of the puzzle here is two things: kills being driving factor of wvw / and the maps being made bigger. Each faction could have a number limit on amount of castles/ forts/ towers/ camps they could build…. (and make it a small number ) and just have everyone else run around and fight…..

Daoc was awesome at lunch but unbalanced as all hell. Anyone remember being able to one shot sitting targets as an archer? Smite Clerics?
The 3 way template was new so yeah of course it felt ‘Epic’ as there was nothing to compare it to.
GW2 will grow and more features (taken from Daoc) will be implemented. I’m not going to bank on it being the holy grail of RvR type games but it has promise.

DAOC/Warhammer – Attempted to balance based on large-scale fights (8v8/10v10/ZergvZerg). This led to lots of crying about imbalances at lower points (1v1/2v2/5v5) to which Mythic correctly said “who cares? that’s not our bag, man”.

Guild Wars 2 – Attempting to balance for 1v1 – 5v5 fights. Tells people who like bigger fights or WvW “We aren’t really into that, WvW is just for funsies”. Slowly realizing that more people care about those fights than their silly MOBA-styled 5v5 and Arena garbage…. but will they attempt to change or just say “Hey, this game’s not really all about that”? Time will tell…

The more this game steals/copies from DAoC, the better it gets.

copy/steal mooaaahr !

They are never going to be able to keep lame people from being lame. More points on objectives, more door smashing. More points from playerkilling…you’ll have kill swapping.

I think they should just focus on incentivizing players to WvW. I too am an ex-DAoC’er. I loved DF and AMG in olf frontiers -lol- Till this day I remember hitting level 51 when I hit RR5. I think they should offer more character improvement through playerkilling.

To put it simply, daoc wins

I think that old games get looked at through rose tinted glasses too many times. With that said , I agree that the game seems to promote zerging but it does offer the tools to zerg bust. My guild frequently goes 20 vs 40+ with the proper use of push / pulling, choke points, balistas , guardian walls ,necros, water and blasts etc etc . We don’t always win, but it feels good when we do.

I’m with y’all on that. DAOC is my game man. I play solo here and kick kitten just in DAOC they focused more on the killing of other people. In GW2 they focus on siege. The WvW abilities are a joke for what I like to do, which is roam solo picking off players, not guards. If they added like aug power, aug healing, etc, actual abilities that will help you kill other people head up, this would be in essence DAOC 2.

When I first started I was like it ain’t DAOC but it will do. Now I think the game has the potential to go even further, but they gotta be willing to take it there (anet)

For the record, I played Dogskin the Armsman on Tristan, and Jay the Mercenary on Gareth. Same name after the merger, both toons.

swinsk.6410:

GW2 > DAOC by a long shot and I played daoc for like 7 years or something.

something is better, something is worse … GW2 has a great potential but they must introduce a real progression for wvw maybe something that bring unbalance but a purpose is always good to have.
remove AoE cap, give guilds a meaning and put in new, bigger maps.

Not sure what the point of this thread is, and i dont think GW2 should try to model their game so closely after an older game…
They are trying to improve WvW, and are making good progress so far. More is needed to be done….but DAOC wasnt that great when it came out either.

That said……….. DFC: The Crusade >>>> DAoC any day.

DAoC was Mythic’s 2nd RvRVR game, so they had some experience on how to do it right, and still screwed it up a bit (and made it WAAYYY more carebear btw).

I think people forget how brutal DAOC was at launch. There were no RR at launch, no crafting (except white armor and weapons) Hibland was actual not even finished (no level 35+ dungeon)
RvR had such silly stupid mechanics. I remember wandering out with level 35 Thane (lancelot server) to RvR and watching 2 healers chain AOE stun 5 times out number of Albs until we got around to killing them
No BGs so if you wanted to have any chance in RvR you needed to be 50 and leveling at launch was BRUTAL
DAOC did many cool things (like darkness falls) but lets not kid ourselves, GW2 first 6 months compared to DAOC…… GW2 miles and miles better

I dont understand that “omg DAOC was the best, bla bla” behaviour. DAoC had flaws, had problems, people cried out for things or that so much is wrong with that game. It’s the same as in every mmorpg. Your first experience is always the best and no one remembers the things that really sucked.
DAoC was a good game, especially in RvR, but it’s far away from being the best of all. There are many games with great ideas and even more which had even greater ideas and failed.
Remember the games you played and what you liked but that feeling won’t come back, it maybe was your first real mmorpg, with your first real RvR experience and it will always fill a shiny, great, awesome memory.
GW2 has huge potential and the wvw is nice after that latest patch and I had tons of fun the last days, like I had in DAoC, Warhammer, SWG, WoW, UO, browsergames, but I won’t say it’s the best, neither are the others

GW2 have better graphics. Daoc looks like puke after eating meatloaf.

1. /stick
2. /assist
3. 11111111111111111

DAoC was that good.

swinsk.6410:

I played daoc for like 7 years or something.

Oh the memories of the fights.

Crimedawg.8954:

Daoc was awesome at lunch but unbalanced as all hell. Anyone remember being able to one shot sitting targets as an archer? Smite Clerics?

Casters didn’t have to be sitting to get one-shotted by a Scout.

I loved lining up Crit Shot with Eagle Eye. Jeez, I miss that.

I played both. I did have a lot of fun with DAoC once I got past the horrid unbelievably long PvE grind but then they added an additional grind to the part I loved most which was RR with ranks. Thus I left for Shadowbane.

Overall I have had much more fun with GW2 than DAoC which is saying something because for its time I had a lot of fun in DAoC.

GW2 just removed so much of the tedious boring elements of most MMOs and you can just play and enjoy the game rather then feeling you are working at a second job.

Let’s not forget that if you died in mass, everyone would have to re-port which took like 15 minutes of waiting around. I think gamers having to wait that long now would totally freak out.

I did like the /stick command though for following other people. I also like that certain classes were required to succeed. Like you had to have a healer (for resses and heals), you had to have a bard (for movement speed), etc.

Guild Wars 2 is far more casual. You can play WvW all day long and successfully without ever grouping or really talking to anyone else. Just listen in on voice chat and read the (T) messages.

One of the main reasons I was so drawn to this game was the WvW aspect which I have missed since my player days of DAoC. The only thing I really miss from DAoC that isn’t in this game was the ability by rangers and infiltrators to scale keep walls and take them from within (I really miss the old stealth zergs)
While the WvW in DAoC was one of a kind I have to give it to GW2 for making it feel more like the Camelot zerg days.

Daheff clan still lives on (Albion Guinevere)

If DAoC was never previously released and went on the market today, even with updated graphics, it would be destroyed in player reviews, abandoned and made a punchline. Especially at $15 a month.

DAoC was good for what it was at the time. That does not mean it was the RvR paradise most people seem to make it out to be. Who here was there for launch? remember the hate threads? Even after the RvR community got established, man did everyone bash the game.

It’s only now that we are safely in the land of fond rememberance that we could ever think that DAoC was the Eden of large scale PvP.

Honestly GW2 and DAoC are so frigging different and so many levels that comparing them is pointless. It’s not a contest.

The only thing to be gained out of the DAoC discussion is ‘What did they do right?’ and emulate it in GW2, and ‘What did they do wrong?’ and eliminate that from GW2.

GW2 takes a beating from the DAoC community in the present, but I am 100% positive that 5 years from now, players will be saying the same things about GW2 as they do about DAoC. These will be ‘the good old days’ and whatever new game is out will be crap.

Advice to Anet: BIGGER MAPS!

This is probably the biggest reason why our guild would move to Elder Scrolls Online when it comes out. That and my Guardian might get an actual ranged weapon.

I’ve played DAoC, ShadowBane, StarWars Galaxies, LOTRO, SW:TOR, and a few others. I enjoyed them all or I wouldn’t have played them. But, here we are over 15 years later, and I still think original UO (pre-Trammel) was the best MMO, period. And I thought that through everything I’ve played since.

At some point though, because of economic pressures or “new ideas”, all of them have gone to kitten. GW2 is no different in that regard. It appears to be going in the wrong direction.

For most who liked daoc it will always be better than gw2 because anet wants to make wvw casual friendly while daoc leaned toward the hardcore crowd. This is seen in siege(gw2) vs killing(daoc), full rewards on tag(gw2) vs split rewards(daoc), and minor passives(gw2) vs major power gap creating actives(daoc). I prefered daoc, but I don’t think gw2 is worse (well it is for me =p) just different. Anyway, CU may be promising for the more hardcore players looking for their fill…. we’ll see. I do think anet is doing a decent job with wvw. My only real complaint about this game is no raid functionality…. leaving that out was kitten and keeping it out this long makes me wonder if they even wvw as a guild.

DAOC did it right by putting focus on player killing and relics. People took tower/keep to farm or protect relics.

GW2 did it wrong by putting too much focus on objectives and keep/tower taking. It’s more profitable for each side to just let each other flip tower/keep which is boring.

A lot of you DAoC players have some memory issues. As we all have a habit of doing, we often look back on the “glory days” and forget a LOT of the issues back then. DAoC was no different. The RvR was fun, but it the same issues GW2 is going through.

I played DAoC from launch and left right before Frontiers. There was never a point during that time it was perfect or even near perfect. Just about every class got time in spotlight of “OP” and FoTM for RvR. I still remember when Midgard healers were ridiculously OP with all of their stuns and the game had zero diminishing returns. I still remember when no casters had self bubble and they were all sitting ducks to the bazillion archers out there. I still remember when a handful of Infiltrators could take a keep without ever having to touch door.

Oh and lets not forget how buffbots became pretty much a standard requirement.

I still remember the population discrepancies severely hurt the underdogs who got zero bonuses from being outmanned and rarely had a chance to step foot in Darkness Falls. Which only put them farther behind the curve. Hibernia was the whipping boy on just about every server because Albion and Midgard generlly had WAY more people. I mean have we forgotten that one of the biggest things about Frontiers was it was going to FINALLY address the YEARS of the population imbalance issue?

Oh and there was lag. There were times when the zones would crash. There were many many many relic keep attempts completely dismantled from crashes and lag.

Don’t get me wrong. I LOVED DAoC, but don’t give it the old “glory days” coat of amnesia. It ALWAYS had issues. But the gameplay was fun enough for us to look past it — for me that’s how I feel about GW2. I’m having fun.

Here’s the deal, Anet is a business. Everyone knows once WoW was created and 8 year olds crying on forums could actually impact change because their mommies and daddies paid the 15 a month, game makers then became lets get the “everyone can play their style” mentality. Like a couple of you have said, it’s simple this is casual carebear land. It’s like call of duty, anyone can do it and FAST. Well thing is, unless kills become focus of something more than keep wood, 1/3 of the population will leave gw2 because that third is here to challenge themselves and win against people. And not with 40 people around them. PUT SKILL BACK INTO PLAYER VS PLAYER.

Thrumdi.9216:

Advice to Anet: BIGGER MAPS!

This is probably the biggest reason why our guild would move to Elder Scrolls Online when it comes out. That and my Guardian might get an actual ranged weapon.

The reason your guardian won’t get a real ranged weapon (what the hell does that even mean?) is this thing called: balance.

Also we’re not getting bigger maps, EBG is the limit of what they can make.

I think I was misunderstood.

I think GW2 is way better than DAOC.

I loved daoc, but I love gw2 more.

There is only one reason I like this game better and it is the combat engine. It’s fast and it rewards quick reflexes and skills.

DAOC did the same to a certain extent but missed a ton of key elements that GW2 has.

EDIT: I don’t care about ranks or abilities Although I love what they have done for wvw ranks. I want to wvw more often now because of it, but I would have played without it.

Did DaoC have issues? kitten right class balance sucked, no questing system at first, leveling was a grind (good and bad, at least you got to know everyone on your server doing fins), gear acquisition was a pain before crafting was done. And the UI and controls are terrable by today’s standerd.

All that said, RvR was still done better in DaoC then it has been since, and taking the good ideas and what worked in an older game is not a bad thing. Mythic screwed the pooch in Warhammer because they didn’t follow in there own foot steps. Anet will also not follow in DaoCs foot steps (sadly) well DaoC was player friendly in RvR for its time it is brutal by today’s mainstream standerds.

Samhayn.2385:

Did DaoC have issues? kitten right class balance sucked, no questing system at first, leveling was a grind (good and bad, at least you got to know everyone on your server doing fins), gear acquisition was a pain before crafting was done. And the UI and controls are terrable by today’s standerd.

All that said, RvR was still done better in DaoC then it has been since, and taking the good ideas and what worked in an older game is not a bad thing. Mythic screwed the pooch in Warhammer because they didn’t follow in there own foot steps. Anet will also not follow in DaoCs foot steps (sadly) well DaoC was player friendly in RvR for its time it is brutal by today’s mainstream standerds.

How is DAoC more brutal? I’m sincere in not understanding what you mean by it being brutal in comparison to GW2?

Samhayn.2385:

All that said, RvR was still done better in DaoC then it has been since, and taking the good ideas and what worked in an older game is not a bad thing. Mythic screwed the pooch in Warhammer because they didn’t follow in there own foot steps. Anet will also not follow in DaoCs foot steps (sadly) well DaoC was player friendly in RvR for its time it is brutal by today’s mainstream standerds.

Each Mythic product was worse than the last……

And i am going to have to 2nd the other person who questioned what was brutal about DAOC by any standard?

Mythic listened to mainstream when they did DAOC and took out looting all gear off the person you killed. (which was in their previous mmo)
Sorry to break it to you, but DAOC was a carebear game compared even to other Mythic games…….and Mythic was prob smart for going that route. Most people dont want that kind of kitten in MMOs….

Fond memories are one thing, but enough of these comparison threads….

swinsk.6410:

Maugrem.7608:

Not to derail but have you guys seen this?

http://citystateentertainment.com/camelotunchained/

That’s just mark jacobs trying to suck some more money out of his daoc fans.

GW2 > DAOC by a long shot and I played daoc for like 7 years or something.

Mark Jacobs is a very good at telling people what they want to hear. He has a very hard time delivering. When I quit DAOC, I told myself I would never play another Mythic product again. Then Warhammer came out… I thought, well, maybe they learned from their past screw-ups. Boy was I wrong. GW2 is a 1000000000 times better than DAOC.

Svarty.8019:

1. /stick
2. /assist
3. 11111111111111111

DAoC was that good.

Or you were that bad.

The reason that people keep comparing games to daoc is that despite people trying build on it they keep moving backwards. Its a kitten 11 year old game that had tons of flaws and still everything that came after it was worse.

Thing that still stands out to me for DAoC was the unique classes for each realm, I know warhammer did that but was only 2 diff factions. Pity those that try/tried to balance all that in a pvp setting and still have the classes be unique.

Having fun in GW2 atm but eh to me its nothing like DAOC around SI times.

Krycek.1269:

Thing that still stands out to me for DAoC was the unique classes for each realm, I know warhammer did that but was only 2 diff factions. Pity those that try/tried to balance all that in a pvp setting and still have the classes be unique.

Having fun in GW2 atm but eh to me its nothing like DAOC around SI times.

I happen to like that GW2 doesnt do unique classes for each server/realm. While it is a cool idea, it is not something that can be balanced properly.
If you try to come back and say Mythic managed it, i will be forced to laugh at you.

Acelerion.6820:

Its a kitten 11 year old game that had tons of flaws and still everything that came after it was worse.

DAOC was worse than its predecessors as well….

Of course it wasn’t completely balanced, never tried to say it was, just that I pity those that were tasked with that job.

DAoC: 46 unique classes, 3 unique realms.
GW2: 8 classes, 1 realm.

DAoC: Huge frontiers, slower paced territory control, ultimately pushing on heavily defended relic keeps.
GW2: Playground sized frontier, siege keep A from keep B’s wall. Objectives of imaginary importance.

DAoC playstyle options: Zerg, 8man roam, small group roam, solo, stealth, DF, Labby.
GW2 playstyle options: Zerg or be zerged, solo roam and fight 1 of the 3 other masochists.

The main difference is DAoC was much more rock paper scissors, but this is exactly what promoted competitive teamplay. With GW2 everyone is essentially a DPS class, with (light) shades of support and control. At the rate these games have been going, pretty soon we’ll all just pick a color instead of a class, and we’ll all be given the same standard-issue beating stick, so that we can be absolutely sure we’re all on the same playing field. It’s going to be so fun!

Ephexi.7061:

DAoC: 46 unique classes, 3 unique realms.
GW2: 8 classes, 1 realm.

DAoC: Huge frontiers, slower paced territory control, ultimately pushing on heavily defended relic keeps.
GW2: Playground sized frontier, siege keep A from keep B’s wall. Objectives of imaginary importance.

DAoC playstyle options: Zerg, 8man roam, small group roam, solo, stealth, DF, Labby.
GW2 playstyle options: Zerg or be zerged, solo roam and fight 1 of the 3 other masochists.

The main difference is DAoC was much more rock paper scissors, but this is exactly what promoted competitive teamplay. With GW2 everyone is essentially a DPS class, with (light) shades of support and control. At the rate these games have been going, pretty soon we’ll all just pick a color instead of a class, and we’ll all be given the same standard-issue beating stick, so that we can be absolutely sure we’re all on the same playing field. It’s going to be so fun!

I hate to repeat myself (that’s not true) but it’s really all about balancing for small combat.

DAOC and Warhammer took two different paths (slow and faced past version) to balance for large fights and mostly poo-poo’d on people whining about small fight imbalances.

This game, is intentionally balancing for 5v5 and smaller fights. Character variety is limited by that decision. Then they added the whole ‘anybody can be anything!’ line…which limited it even further.

But I have to disagree with your memory… this games WvW zone is clearly very heavily based on DAOC’s and its size is not that different. You’re discounting speed boosts in DAOC…I think if you think back you’ll remember it really only took a couple minutes to get from one keep to the next…

Like I said for its time it was accessible.

What makes it Brutal by today’s standerds?

Long duration hard CC.
Super long cooldowns 30-60 minutes on some.
Death penalties and Rez sickness
Equipment that would break with use and needed to be replaced eventually.
No casting well moving, melee attacks auto interrupting casts.
The ability to run out of resource Mana/Endurance
Positional and Reactionary attack chains.
No jumping right back in the action when you wipe.

Some of these are quality of life changes to the mmorpg realm as it has become more mainstream but like I said most people who started with games like WoW would find these thing punishing where some of us older guys miss some of that stuff.

Even with a red-speed class and perma sprint it took a few minutes to get from one keep to another. In GW2 it takes ~30 seconds with no speed boost, and you can sit atop one objective and see 4 others in the distance. I understand what you mean by the balancing for smaller fights, it’s true in a sense, but the WvW mechanics don’t promote this at all, which is where the problem is. There’s zero incentive for anything less than zergballing. and I’m not wearing my rose tinted glasses, I still play both games for different reasons.

Ephexi.7061:

DAoC: 46 unique classes, 3 unique realms.
GW2: 8 classes, 1 realm.

DAoC: Huge frontiers, slower paced territory control, ultimately pushing on heavily defended relic keeps.
GW2: Playground sized frontier, siege keep A from keep B’s wall. Objectives of imaginary importance.

DAoC playstyle options: Zerg, 8man roam, small group roam, solo, stealth, DF, Labby.
GW2 playstyle options: Zerg or be zerged, solo roam and fight 1 of the 3 other masochists.

The main difference is DAoC was much more rock paper scissors, but this is exactly what promoted competitive teamplay. With GW2 everyone is essentially a DPS class, with (light) shades of support and control. At the rate these games have been going, pretty soon we’ll all just pick a color instead of a class, and we’ll all be given the same standard-issue beating stick, so that we can be absolutely sure we’re all on the same playing field. It’s going to be so fun!

Sorry, but saying that rock paper scissors is competitive team play, while GW2 isnt….is silly. (but then again, this entire thread is pointless)
If that comparison was true, why is it that a well organized 5 man can take down a group 3 times its size?
I feel much more pride that my Mes/Guard/Ele beat someone else’s Mes/Guard/Ele, because we outplayed them with skill. NOT that my class happened to be the rock vs their scissor. i kittenin HATE rock paper scissors.

What your complaining about is a difference of opinion, and that you prefer the DAOC system instead of the GW2 system. So…on behalf of the community, we are sorry that this game isnt designed specifically for you.

I for one prefer GW2 in this regard. I was tired of “I only lost because you had a kittenton of claw spamming Vampiirs. BTW, Nerf Hib class and buff Alb!”

Ephexi.7061:

With GW2 everyone is essentially a DPS class, with (light) shades of support and control.

I guess my shout-healing leg-specialist hammer/mace-shield warrior with warbanner is just a DPS class with light support and control, eh? His DPS is amazing (-ly bad) and his CC totally doesn’t knock zergs around like ragdolls (when they have stability anyway, which is countered by the specific skills of a couple of those other essentially DPS classes without much support or control and no real unique uses, cause they are all the same, right?).

You sir, win the prize for best understanding of GW2 mechanics. The prize shall be delivered to you on April first.

I played DAOC from release until about the time City of Heroes came out. RvR in DAOC was better than any form of PvP I had experienced until that point, and I have seen very few games that have come close to it since with the notable exception of GW2.

DAOC’s PvE was a huge enormous grind. You had to get to 50 through a very very long grind that was almost intolerable via solo play. The class system in that game was that each character was a piece of a party, and solo sucked. To get any kind of experience at a noticeable rate, you had to form a perfect party, which meant up to an hour of standing around spamming requests for the class you needed. Often one would spend more time trying to fill out a group than one did actually playing in that group. This xp grind to reach the end game was such a pain, my casual player friend never reached 50, so never played RvR.

The byproduct of this xp model was people had to be organized, and you got to know people on your server very well, and you coordinated well as a team. The PvE grind served as a filter that put skilled cooperative players in the end game, and that player base worked well together as teams. Coordinated strategic RvR was so good because in part all of the idiots were weeded out by the PvE grind.

GW2 has the potential to be that good, but remember, it is easy to solo to 80 in GW2, which means you have to learn coordinated WvW at the end game. This means guilds have to spend more time training players in cooperative PvP, and they have to make an effort to do things like establish server wide TS or vent (neither of which was around when I played DAOC). Commanders icons certainly make it easier for a PUG to find the action in this game.

Anyone remember the pad waiting in DAOC? When you died you had to make your way back to the RvR pad then wait for 15 min to return. It sucked. It did mean though when you wiped the other zerg, you had a window to make progress before it backfilled with revives.

GW2 is about supply- controlling camps and yaks will determine upgrades, and you can throttle those to starve a keep under siege. DAOC you had to distribute siege pieces by carry weight among team members, then train them in how to assemble it, and plan redundancies in case someone died with a key part. I like how all of the headache of distributing pieces in DAOC is eliminated by supply …you just bring supply and plans and anyone can help you complete the plan as long as they fill up on supply.

Zergs were a problem in DAOC. I played Midgard and Hibernia, and usually was angered when no amount of decent tactics could prevail against the Albion zerg. I wound up playing mainly a shadowblade to be able to gank the supply train of the Alb zerg. What I see in GW2 is yes, the zerg is a problem, but last night we used density in tight clusters to break up and wipe a larger zerg than us, so there are some tactics that can compensate. But if you face a realm that can field a team of 5 to take your supply camp, while you can only get 2 people to guard, you face an uphill battle. Outmanned helps, but it is not enough. in PUG v PUG zergs, the bigger zerg wins because there are no advanced tactics in a PUG. So your smaller realm can out play your opponent, but lose the war just due to numbers still.

To some extent large pop servers go up ranks and this solves itself. Also the GW2 team seems to be encouraging transfers to even out populations some.

And as far as numbers of players rendered before culling goes, my memory of DAOC was of horrible crude graphics and the servers crashing in epic battles. This game has much higher graphical demands because the characters look a lot better. I like how they let you set your culling and graphic quality…it shows me the devs of this game really are trying to solve some of the more annoying aspects.

I think one thing they could do to help would be to have players go through WvW school, a series of quests aimed at teaching the basics of WvW play, with a basic WvW armor set available as reward for completing the series. This would help those coming into WvW from solo play to make the transition to being useful faster. It would take a real partnership between WvW guilds and the devs to get this WvW school done right.

I think DAOC had a lot of unconventional elements to it that are still best in genre even today. One of them being RVR of course, but other things, like DF, positional/reactionary melee styles, class variety, and hard interrupts still stand out to me as brilliant pieces of game design.

The things I miss most about DAOC RVR / dislike about GW2’s WVW:

• Darkness Falls. That place was just epic. Great for PVE/levelling, great for PVP, great fun cleaning it out when ownership changed hands, great feel.
• Zerginess. GW2 promotes zerging too much through mechanics like ultra fast rezzing & rally mechanics, 5-target AOE cap, towers/keeps being too easy to take. WVW would be much better served if the basic player group unit was in the group range.
• Map layout. DAOC had it just right, both the WVW maps feel like a game level instead of part of an actual world. Basically, the WVW maps have been over-engineered.
• AOE. I really hate the 5-target cap, it essentially rewards stupid play, and it makes siege weapons too good relative to players. I’d like to see it raised to 8 at least, if only for WVW.