Guild Wars 2

Hi guys,

Ive come to the realisation over time that capturing keeps for rewards is starting to seem counter productive, i wouldn’t completely reccomend removing rewards from capturing, however i do believe that shifting 60-80% of the rewards over to defending your towers and keeps, players are always going to be driven by incentive, (the majority) so by shifting the rewards you give incentive to 1) take points if you dont have them and 2) defend the points you already have.

i was going to place in suggestions however it isnt a suggestion, it has a huge flaw that i need help with,

i prefer the idea of defending first them capturing, (its how its always worked in real life) however players are, as ive said before driven by incentive and this would encourage players just to camp in one point to keep reeping the rewards, how would it be improved more than whats already in place as places dont always get attacked.

Defending rewards are much harder to implement, there is no set goal in defending something. The focus right now is on conquering because after killing the lord and a few seconds there is your reward.
Now try to implement such a thing with defense, when does the reward trigger and who gets it?

It is not hard to do.

Public event. in a radius around the camp (same as taking it over area), one that covers the tower and keep areas.

Now add in the tagging system of enemy players. Do enough damage to tag and you get credit for the event.

Will this lead to more people camping out in towers waiting on an attack? YES… good then we get scouts at the same time! Its not a hard system to implement they already have the foundations down with the defend timer now.

Ostra.3927:

It is not hard to do.

Public event. in a radius around the camp (same as taking it over area), one that covers the tower and keep areas.

Now add in the tagging system of enemy players. Do enough damage to tag and you get credit for the event.

Will this lead to more people camping out in towers waiting on an attack? YES… good then we get scouts at the same time! Its not a hard system to implement they already have the foundations down with the defend timer now.

thats what already happens and no one does it, why? incentive is the answer but i just had a quick thought, what if it scaled the reward depending on how much you did during that defense, repairs/movement/kills/seigedamage/damage/healing/boonproduction

aspirine.6852:

Defending rewards are much harder to implement, there is no set goal in defending something. The focus right now is on conquering because after killing the lord and a few seconds there is your reward.
Now try to implement such a thing with defense, when does the reward trigger and who gets it?

This already happens. The goal is for the tower/keep Lord to survive for three minutes. They can either lower the timer, or increase the rewards to incentivise defending.

Traitine.8713:

aspirine.6852:

Defending rewards are much harder to implement, there is no set goal in defending something. The focus right now is on conquering because after killing the lord and a few seconds there is your reward.
Now try to implement such a thing with defense, when does the reward trigger and who gets it?

This already happens. The goal is for the tower/keep Lord to survive for three minutes. They can either lower the timer, or increase the rewards to incentivise defending.

Yeah But most of the time it’s just someone trebbing from a distance, or a group tagging the keep/tower to distract. What would you need to do to get credit for defending.

RedCobra.7693:

Ostra.3927:

It is not hard to do.

Public event. in a radius around the camp (same as taking it over area), one that covers the tower and keep areas.

Now add in the tagging system of enemy players. Do enough damage to tag and you get credit for the event.

Will this lead to more people camping out in towers waiting on an attack? YES… good then we get scouts at the same time! Its not a hard system to implement they already have the foundations down with the defend timer now.

thats what already happens and no one does it, why? incentive is the answer but i just had a quick thought, what if it scaled the reward depending on how much you did during that defense, repairs/movement/kills/seigedamage/damage/healing/boonproduction

simple solution:

Towers:
Event trigger: Attack
Event description: Stop the enemy from breaching the wall/gate (wall/gate HP meter automatically selects the section with the least HP)
Event Win condition: Drive any hostile out of the area (set “safety zone” around the walls, say 5-6000 range so we cover any potential catapults and it should also help prevent forts overlapping their territories)
Event loss condition: Wall or gate HP reaches zero
Event reset: Wall and or gate is repaired to 50% health or all hostile players is driven out of the safety zone
Event reward: chest from supervisor.

Keeps:
Event trigger: Attack
Event description: Stop the enemy from breaching the Outer wall/gate (wall/gate HP meter automatically selects the section with the least HP)
Event Win condition: Drive any hostile out of the area (set “safety zone” around the walls, say 5-6000 range so we cover any potential catapults and it should also help prevent forts overlapping their territories)
Event loss condition: Wall or gate HP reaches zero
Event reset: Wall and or gate is repaired to 50% health or all hostile players is driven out of the safety zone
Event reward: chest from supervisor.

Event trigger: Attack
Event description: Stop the enemy from breaching the Inner wall/gate (wall/gate HP meter automatically selects the section with the least HP)
Event Win condition: Drive any hostile out of the area (set “safety zone” around the walls, say 5-6000 range so we cover any potential catapults and it should also help prevent forts overlapping their territories)
Event loss condition: Wall or gate HP reaches zero
Event reset: Wall and or gate is repaired to 50% health or all hostile players is driven out of the safety zone
Event reward: chest from Champion Supervisor.

Setting the reset to 50% repaired means that you got to burn a LOT of supply to get the event back, and it also makes the whole “farm the event system” much much less fun and much much more demanding. I havent paid attention to the difference in tower supervisor and keep supervisor loot, however if there is a difference, good. If there isn’t, there should be better rewards for taking a keep (items, not just karma and exp and such)

Dolyak defense:
Event trigger: Dolyak spawn
Event description: Stop the enemy from killing the dolyak
Event Win condition: Drive any hostile out of the area or successfully reach a destination (set “safety zone” around the dolyak, 2000 range should be more then enough)
Event loss condition: Dolyak dies
Event reset: Enemy leaves the 2000 range safety zone, dolyak reaches first destination (in the case of multiple deliveries)
Event reward: X World vs World Badges, liquid WXP bottle (250 wxp), a random item (low chance of rare quality) 80 silver coins, 2500 exp, 70 karma.

EDIT:
In the case of a wall and or gate being trebbed, the event will only trigger once players enter a “inner area” set forth by the area inside the walls, excluding inner walls and the area inside the inner walls, in the case of keeps.

I’ll just repeat it here. Both rewards (defensive and offensive) and PPT should be weighted on on the amount of upgrades the objective has. Paper towers/keeps should have reduced rewards, t3/ fully upgraded objectives should have GREATLY increased rewards. It would fix WvW strategy and bring back defense into the game.

On the other hand, coverage differences would still be a problem. And that kills the point of defending as much as anything else.

Zephyrus.9680:

I’ll just repeat it here. Both rewards (defensive and offensive) and PPT should be weighted on on the amount of upgrades the objective has. Paper towers/keeps should have reduced rewards, t3/ fully upgraded objectives should have GREATLY increased rewards. It would fix WvW strategy and bring back defense into the game.

On the other hand, coverage differences would still be a problem. And that kills the point of defending as much as anything else.

Coverage is a problem that can not be solved without causing a lot of grief and crying. Only way to balance servers is to actually forcefully move players and reduce server capacity/lock certain servers from getting new players. It is the only viable and effective way to fix coverage issues.

prysin thats a very good idea however what would you do about mesmers or thieves hiding inside after a pushback, wouldnt they keep the event active?

RedCobra.7693:

prysin thats a very good idea however what would you do about mesmers or thieves hiding inside after a pushback, wouldnt they keep the event active?

yup, and that would also blow their cover. Meaning that they now have to constantly run around the base, and the whole zerg knows to look for them. It is a double edged sword. Meaning that life as a sneaky mesmer/thief becomes a lot harder, yet not impossible, for thieves atleast, as they can just hit the walls and stay in stealth, mesmers, they gonna have a rough time

then im going to have to be against that, not becuase im a mesmer :p but that would take away the feeling that a few can make a difference, its not really hard for a group to sweep and would effectively count as defence and upkeep of the structure itself. what if there was some leeway where it would allow 1-3 enemies to be inside the ring to complete the event?

defending is so easy. when sm is being trebbed you put 2 supply in it, every 3 mins (per eveent). This gives you credit for defending a keep when basically your hindering it. So repair each time and boom money farm for sitting in 1 spot, wasting supply on a trebbed wall.

The reward for defending usually is fun. Last night, CD and SBI fought over CD’s t3 bay for a good 2 hours, with the last hour being non stop fighting. They had more numbers, and kept waypointing in. They wiped us once, we came straight back, knocked down the inner gate again, and kept going at it. We eventually took their Bay. It was a blast, and I am sure CD had a blast too. All their people from EB even came over to fight in that.

Instead of defending bay, they could’ve ran around their BL and taken back all their possessions (which were under BPs control). Instead, they wanted to defend bay. My guess is, because it was fun. All that fighting was a blast.

They got tons of bags for defending, and we got tons for assaulting. What is this garbage about defense. It has its own rewards.

Why do people play WvW? Is it for the Karma? XP? Or is it for fun, and the loot is an added bonus?

oh dont get me wrong guys this isnt one of those qq’s :P i love defending and i do it regardless of reward, im referring to combatting this mentality for zergs to have to sprint around just capping everything they come across without having to or needing to (for rewards) defend any of those points as in most of the players minds, they will be thinking “why should i care about the server score”.

RedCobra.7693:

then im going to have to be against that, not becuase im a mesmer :p but that would take away the feeling that a few can make a difference, its not really hard for a group to sweep and would effectively count as defence and upkeep of the structure itself. what if there was some leeway where it would allow 1-3 enemies to be inside the ring to complete the event?

there could be implemented some soft of “outmanned” system, were a smaller party can go un-noticed if the enemy force have overwhelming numbers. Which is a bit logical if we speak of keeps, towers, their small and you should be spotted quite fast if you think about it logically.

One of the biggest problems with defense is that it never happens.

Trying to capture an upgraded, seiged, and strongly defended structure is more or less impossible. The only viable way to do it is with a sudden golem rush, which allows you to bypass the defense mechanic because nobody is there to defend.

Wvw strongly incentivises sudden attacks with no possibility of defense unless someone is doing the incredibly boring job of sitting semi-afk in the structure waiting for enemies to show up. That is the problem. Defense never even has a chance to happen.

most certainly pyro, its a tough one for sure, how about giving a reward tick every 10mins for maybe 1 or 2 hours, after that time the tower/keep will no longer give you Wxp/xp and youll have to move onto the next, a long side getting the spontaneous attack defense event aswell

Pyroatheist.9031:

One of the biggest problems with defense is that it never happens.

unless someone is doing the incredibly boring job of sitting semi-afk in the structure waiting for enemies to show up.

i do that all the time… watching anime/tv and guarding hills or bay….

Andrew Clear.1750:

The reward for defending usually is fun. Last night, CD and SBI fought over CD’s t3 bay for a good 2 hours, with the last hour being non stop fighting. They had more numbers, and kept waypointing in. They wiped us once, we came straight back, knocked down the inner gate again, and kept going at it. We eventually took their Bay. It was a blast, and I am sure CD had a blast too. All their people from EB even came over to fight in that.

Instead of defending bay, they could’ve ran around their BL and taken back all their possessions (which were under BPs control). Instead, they wanted to defend bay. My guess is, because it was fun. All that fighting was a blast.

They got tons of bags for defending, and we got tons for assaulting. What is this garbage about defense. It has its own rewards.

Why do people play WvW? Is it for the Karma? XP? Or is it for fun, and the loot is an added bonus?

You’re only kidding yourself here.

You get tons of bags for defending, NOT attacking. If you’re actually defending a spot, the attackers will move to another objective because they don’t want a long siege that gives no rewards except ‘fun’. Then they’ll come back when no ones there to defend.

The no-defense K-train meta works for PPT AND for rewards. Look at BG’s score. ALL they do is K-train and an occasional garrison defense which is basically what everyone’s doing. In the match with BG SoR Mag on all 4 maps there’s a total of 1 waypoint. No defense works for PPT and it brings good rewards. Fun is subjective and a lot of effort with little or no reward is generally less fun.

The system has always been broken though the meta only became k-train after everyone realized it.

Pyroatheist.9031:

One of the biggest problems with defense is that it never happens.

Don’t use the never word when you can’t vouch for every guild on every server.

As I mentioned, CD defended their bay last night for hours.

SBI defends, Mag defends, FA defends, BP defends, etc. There is a lot of defense in WvW, I don’t understand why people keep saying that it never happens.

Best battles in WvW usually come from a server attacking something that a server is defending.

Zephyrus.9680:

Andrew Clear.1750:

The reward for defending usually is fun. Last night, CD and SBI fought over CD’s t3 bay for a good 2 hours, with the last hour being non stop fighting. They had more numbers, and kept waypointing in. They wiped us once, we came straight back, knocked down the inner gate again, and kept going at it. We eventually took their Bay. It was a blast, and I am sure CD had a blast too. All their people from EB even came over to fight in that.

Instead of defending bay, they could’ve ran around their BL and taken back all their possessions (which were under BPs control). Instead, they wanted to defend bay. My guess is, because it was fun. All that fighting was a blast.

They got tons of bags for defending, and we got tons for assaulting. What is this garbage about defense. It has its own rewards.

Why do people play WvW? Is it for the Karma? XP? Or is it for fun, and the loot is an added bonus?

You’re only kidding yourself here.

You get tons of bags for defending, NOT attacking. If you’re actually defending a spot, the attackers will move to another objective because they don’t want a long siege that gives no rewards except ‘fun’. Then they’ll come back when no ones there to defend.

The no-defense K-train meta works for PPT AND for rewards. Look at BG’s score. ALL they do is K-train and an occasional garrison defense which is basically what everyone’s doing. In the match with BG SoR Mag on all 4 maps there’s a total of 1 waypoint. No defense works for PPT and it brings good rewards. Fun is subjective and a lot of effort with little or no reward is generally less fun.

The system has always been broken though the meta only became k-train after everyone realized it.

Again, people defend. People attack. Sure you will run off if the place seems like it is too hard to take. That is just common sense. So, you run to another place to take. A lot of servers that I have faced, will run over to that place and defend it as well.

It is fun to defend, you get good fights. I am not kidding myself about anything.

But you already get rewards for defending. What are you guys talking about?

Andrew Clear.1750:

Zephyrus.9680:

Andrew Clear.1750:

The reward for defending usually is fun. Last night, CD and SBI fought over CD’s t3 bay for a good 2 hours, with the last hour being non stop fighting. They had more numbers, and kept waypointing in. They wiped us once, we came straight back, knocked down the inner gate again, and kept going at it. We eventually took their Bay. It was a blast, and I am sure CD had a blast too. All their people from EB even came over to fight in that.

Instead of defending bay, they could’ve ran around their BL and taken back all their possessions (which were under BPs control). Instead, they wanted to defend bay. My guess is, because it was fun. All that fighting was a blast.

They got tons of bags for defending, and we got tons for assaulting. What is this garbage about defense. It has its own rewards.

Why do people play WvW? Is it for the Karma? XP? Or is it for fun, and the loot is an added bonus?

You’re only kidding yourself here.

You get tons of bags for defending, NOT attacking. If you’re actually defending a spot, the attackers will move to another objective because they don’t want a long siege that gives no rewards except ‘fun’. Then they’ll come back when no ones there to defend.

The no-defense K-train meta works for PPT AND for rewards. Look at BG’s score. ALL they do is K-train and an occasional garrison defense which is basically what everyone’s doing. In the match with BG SoR Mag on all 4 maps there’s a total of 1 waypoint. No defense works for PPT and it brings good rewards. Fun is subjective and a lot of effort with little or no reward is generally less fun.

The system has always been broken though the meta only became k-train after everyone realized it.

Again, people defend. People attack. Sure you will run off if the place seems like it is too hard to take. That is just common sense. So, you run to another place to take. A lot of servers that I have faced, will run over to that place and defend it as well.

It is fun to defend, you get good fights. I am not kidding myself about anything.

Nvm I think you were responding to the thread title but not the OP itself. Good fights are good fights however and wherever they happen. No one is arguing about that. The issue is that attacking is necessary while defense has little or no significance in WvW.

The rewards for defending come from the loot bags you get when wiping the zerg at your tower door, who are so tunnel visioned pvd’ing they dont even see you coming xD
God I love that moment of smashing into 30-40 people who dont even see you coming lol.

its the fact that its easier for the karma train to cap rather than defend, so the majority of players do that, you would never find it in real life xD, maybe if upgraded keeps gave more ticks for your wvw score, if its your guild that claimed it you get wxp per tick when standing inside it

Prysin.8542:

simple solution:

Towers:
Event trigger: Attack
Event description: Stop the enemy from breaching the wall/gate (wall/gate HP meter automatically selects the section with the least HP)
Event Win condition: Drive any hostile out of the area (set “safety zone” around the walls, say 5-6000 range so we cover any potential catapults and it should also help prevent forts overlapping their territories)
Event loss condition: Wall or gate HP reaches zero
Event reset: Wall and or gate is repaired to 50% health or all hostile players is driven out of the safety zone
Event reward: chest from supervisor.

Keeps:
Event trigger: Attack
Event description: Stop the enemy from breaching the Outer wall/gate (wall/gate HP meter automatically selects the section with the least HP)
Event Win condition: Drive any hostile out of the area (set “safety zone” around the walls, say 5-6000 range so we cover any potential catapults and it should also help prevent forts overlapping their territories)
Event loss condition: Wall or gate HP reaches zero
Event reset: Wall and or gate is repaired to 50% health or all hostile players is driven out of the safety zone
Event reward: chest from supervisor.

Event trigger: Attack
Event description: Stop the enemy from breaching the Inner wall/gate (wall/gate HP meter automatically selects the section with the least HP)
Event Win condition: Drive any hostile out of the area (set “safety zone” around the walls, say 5-6000 range so we cover any potential catapults and it should also help prevent forts overlapping their territories)
Event loss condition: Wall or gate HP reaches zero
Event reset: Wall and or gate is repaired to 50% health or all hostile players is driven out of the safety zone
Event reward: chest from Champion Supervisor.

Setting the reset to 50% repaired means that you got to burn a LOT of supply to get the event back, and it also makes the whole “farm the event system” much much less fun and much much more demanding. I havent paid attention to the difference in tower supervisor and keep supervisor loot, however if there is a difference, good. If there isn’t, there should be better rewards for taking a keep (items, not just karma and exp and such)

Dolyak defense:
Event trigger: Dolyak spawn
Event description: Stop the enemy from killing the dolyak
Event Win condition: Drive any hostile out of the area or successfully reach a destination (set “safety zone” around the dolyak, 2000 range should be more then enough)
Event loss condition: Dolyak dies
Event reset: Enemy leaves the 2000 range safety zone, dolyak reaches first destination (in the case of multiple deliveries)
Event reward: X World vs World Badges, liquid WXP bottle (250 wxp), a random item (low chance of rare quality) 80 silver coins, 2500 exp, 70 karma.

EDIT:
In the case of a wall and or gate being trebbed, the event will only trigger once players enter a “inner area” set forth by the area inside the walls, excluding inner walls and the area inside the inner walls, in the case of keeps.

Wahw very nice. I would definitely like this to be implemented.