Guild Wars 2

So I was green this week, defending our BL from an invasion from red. I noticed that blue had almost no ppt and was being dominated. I asked in team chat why we hate blue so much and the answer was pretty much universally:
-Desert BL sucks
-Desert BL is OP
-Desert BL isn’t worth time
-Need ppt, not worth
This is the fourth matchup I’ve been in, in which we deliberately avoid invading red because the EOTM taint spilled into real WVW. I also still don’t understand why we had to get rid of the krait lakes— it was fun for sneak attacks, and the present “ruins” system seems a pointless addition.

1. Why is it that when we asked for a graphical update (because wvw IS/WAS looking way worse than the rest of the game), Anet saw fit to geographically ruin a very balanced terrain?
2. Is it worth desperately justifying the investment in design when we clearly don’t want to play it?

I know EOTM seemed overwhelmingly popular, but you might notice it’s been a bit dead since you can no longer karma train a character 1-80 in there.

DBL is not being removed.

Please refrain from spamming random stuff in threads.

Swagger.1459:

DBL is not being removed.

Please refrain from spamming random stuff in threads.

It’s about as random as 4XL clothing in a Wal Mart

SixVoltCar.5248:

Swagger.1459:

DBL is not being removed.

Please refrain from spamming random stuff in threads.

It’s about as random as 4XL clothing in a Wal Mart

You kept spamming random stuff and complaints about dbl in a few threads already. No need to do that…

DBL is not going anywhere. It was voted in by the community. Move on to more productive conversations without spamming multiple threads please.

Lets vote again then Last vote was before they made desert bl into “1 map” and I am pretty sure no1 guessed that Desert bl would be such huge of an advantage to have.

Also game population felt way lower back then (also there was more ppt comms resetting stuff), so no1 thought we need more than 3 maps.

Ill be happy with the current situation if over 50% people vote to keep it

Should be gotten rid of without a doubt. The kill/deaths per map show a massive drop on red borderland so it’s pretty safe to say that the community for the most part is not going there in anywhere near the numbers of Alpine/EB

Swagger.1459:

SixVoltCar.5248:

Swagger.1459:

DBL is not being removed.

Please refrain from spamming random stuff in threads.

It’s about as random as 4XL clothing in a Wal Mart

You kept spamming random stuff and complaints about dbl in a few threads already. No need to do that…

DBL is not going anywhere. It was voted in by the community. Move on to more productive conversations without spamming multiple threads please.

‘voted in by the community’ when the question was ‘would you like to keep DBL and we might do another map in future, or get rid of DBL and we’ll never make another map ever again’.

There wasn’t much of a choice.

Maybe they should do another poll now, with a straightforward question: should we remove DBL from the rotation.

Or better yet, ‘should we remove DBL from the rotation and start work on a new map for wvw with full input from actual players from the design stage so we don’t end up with the same farce as DBL’?

I love roaming in the DBL. I think its a great map, and I don’t have to deal with blobs unless I band together with other roamers and attack a keep. DBL is fine, and I hope they make a third map that is just as detailed.

I dislike DBL and avoid playing there if at all possible. It’s really difficult to navigate and if you die in a fight there is no way you’re getting back to the tag.

It also seems really PvE heavy. Like the person who designed it had no interest in big fights. Seige Wars is not my idea of a good time, unless I want to go semi AFK while listening to music on a night capping crew.

I play WvW for intense Zerg/Blob fights and in my experience they are in short supply on DBL.

Turk.5460:

I love roaming in the DBL. I think its a great map, and I don’t have to deal with blobs unless I band together with other roamers and attack a keep. DBL is fine, and I hope they make a third map that is just as detailed.

and then :

Ballistic.2570:

I dislike DBL and avoid playing there if at all possible. It’s really difficult to navigate and if you die in a fight there is no way you’re getting back to the tag.

It also seems really PvE heavy. Like the person who designed it had no interest in big fights. Seige Wars is not my idea of a good time, unless I want to go semi AFK while listening to music on a night capping crew.

I play WvW for intense Zerg/Blob fights and in my experience they are in short supply on DBL.

This is interesting because it seems like the very same design choices are the reason why DBL is both liked and disliked. Which eventually means that it’s your personal taste, and not an absolute design flaw. Then there’s the question whether the design meets the player’s expectations.

Now, for more specifics :

Ballistic.2570:

It’s really difficult to navigate and if you die in a fight there is no way you’re getting back to the tag.

If I were ironic, I’d say somthing like “git gud”. I’ll just say learn the map, learn the paths, and do your best not to die. Even if it includes avoid fights or disengage.

Ballistic.2570:

Like the person who designed it had no interest in big fights. Seige Wars is not my idea of a good time, unless I want to go semi AFK while listening to music on a night capping crew.

I play WvW for intense Zerg/Blob fights and in my experience they are in short supply on DBL.

So, let’s have a look at what ANet says about it in the official site :

In this massive war, three huge armies—each representing their world—battle for control of the castles and keeps, raid enemy supply caravans, and clash in open-field battles on five massive maps in week-long matches and seasonal tournaments.

The three Borderlands maps and a huge “neutral” center map are loaded with objectives that are worth points for the team that claims them, and successfully holding those objectives will make them more powerful over time. Players can band together to lay siege to castles, raid enemy supply caravans, clash with other players in truly massive battles, wreak havoc behind enemy lines, or build mighty weapons of warlike trebuchets and siege golems.

See ? Intense Zergs and blob fights are somehow mentioned, but they’re not the main focus. The focus is objectives, PPT, keeps, siege, supply caravans, etc.
I understand you’re unhappy about it, but it’s their design, and if you don’t like it, you may either leave the game, or stick to Alpine, which of course you can do every week.

People keep saying oh we voted for desert bl but the people who voted for it are no where to be seen and that’s because the majority who voted for it only go EOTM , PVE and people who only enter WvW for dailies . Just to a revote and exclude people who hardly enter WvW .

Here is what a real WvW vote looks like since majority players who voted for it are WvW players

http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=585d28afe4b09017a83c32d8

Aphs.9528:

People keep saying oh we voted for desert bl but the people who voted for it are no where to be seen and that’s because the majority who voted for it only go EOTM , PVE and people who only enter WvW for dailies . Just to a revote and exclude people who hardly enter WvW .

Here is what a real WvW vote looks like since majority players who voted for it are WvW players

http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=585d28afe4b09017a83c32d8

I almost exclusively play WvW, entering PvE only for crafting armor/legendaries. Never seen this poll. Am I not a WvW player?

Are those 250 votes really enough to justify calling this a “real” vote?
The answer is...no.

Aphs.9528:

People keep saying oh we voted for desert bl but the people who voted for it are no where to be seen and that’s because the majority who voted for it only go EOTM , PVE and people who only enter WvW for dailies . Just to a revote and exclude people who hardly enter WvW .

Here is what a real WvW vote looks like since majority players who voted for it are WvW players

http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=585d28afe4b09017a83c32d8

Anet has the numbers on who voted and what they mostly do in game. The numbers after removing mostly PvE folk was pretty much the same. I’m sorry if that doesn’t fit your narrative of how things went down.

Aphs.9528:

People keep saying oh we voted for desert bl but the people who voted for it are no where to be seen and that’s because the majority who voted for it only go EOTM , PVE and people who only enter WvW for dailies . Just to a revote and exclude people who hardly enter WvW .

Here is what a real WvW vote looks like since majority players who voted for it are WvW players

http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=585d28afe4b09017a83c32d8

You willing to provide the hard facts, that counter what a dev said, to back all that up? If so, start a thread about it and challenge the below quote from McKenna.

McKenna Berdrow.2759:

Hey guys, since I’m seeing this topic pop up a lot, I wanted to step in and clear up some misconceptions.

1. Nearly every player that voted, plays WvW at least somewhat regularly.

2. Whether they play 1 hour a week, or dozens of hours a week, the breakdown between people who voted ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ remains very constant around the 65/35 split.

3. The in-game poll notification mail is only sent to players who are actively playing WvW. They must be at least rank 10, and have ranked up while the poll was running.

It’s proof that there should a revote .

Aphs.9528:

It’s proof that there should a revote .

All you are proving is that you are needlessly complaining about a topic that had an official poll with official results, and that you don’t like the outcome so you’re going to make up stuff.

Please, by all means, present us the stats that the devs have and show us where McKenna and the team are misleading the community.

Aphs.9528:

It’s proof that there should a revote .

No, it’s really not.

Swagger.1459:

Aphs.9528:

It’s proof that there should a revote .

All you are proving is that you are needlessly complaining about a topic that had an official poll with official results, and that you don’t like the outcome so you’re going to make up stuff.

I don’t know what I’m the most amazed at…

1. The fact this topic still pops while anyone who doesn’t enjoy DBL can perfectly do WvW without needing to run it.
2. The fact people are seriously asking for a new poll, and at the same time, ask anyone who could say (in their imagination of course) they want to keep DBL to be forbidden to vote.

Maybe this should be set as a poll ?

Aphs.9528:

People keep saying oh we voted for desert bl but the people who voted for it are no where to be seen and that’s because the majority who voted for it only go EOTM , PVE and people who only enter WvW for dailies . Just to a revote and exclude people who hardly enter WvW .

Here is what a real WvW vote looks like since majority players who voted for it are WvW players

http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=585d28afe4b09017a83c32d8

Putting a poll up on the toxic discord with a note “please vote no” is not exactly a game mode wide way of building your case.

not really , the votes you see from the poll are from like 3 months ago way before discord.

Aphs.9528:

not really , the votes you see from the poll are from like 3 months ago way before discord.

Ok, so can you disclose all your info about this topic?

“because the majority who voted for it only go EOTM , PVE and people who only enter WvW for dailies”

How many total players voted for dbl?

How many of those voters only go to eotm?

How many of those voters only pve?

How many of those voters only enter wvw for dailies?

How does your information counter what McKenna said?

DBL isn’t going to get the overhaul it needs to make it a desired map by most players.

Removing DBL will also end any chance to get a third BL map.

I wonder if wvw would be better off with just two maps. EBG for everyone and one home Alpine map for the highest glicko server to defend.

The main issue with the Anet vote was the caveat they put in it, which was basically ‘vote to keep the DBL or we’ll never do another wvw map ever’. So of course people voted to keep it, what real choice was there.

Of course, since there isn’t a wvw dev team, the chances of getting another map or pretty low anyway…

At this stage for wvw I’d rather see 3 distinct balanced maps (no ‘home’ BL for any side) akin to EB, or if they want to be very lazy, 3 copies of EB.

Having four maps per match up is now too many, it spreads people too far out for the numbers who still play.

As for pvd, DBL remains a roamers paradise as they can pve all they like without meeting any enemies at all.

I’m in danger of losing my patience with this stupid revisionist history bullkitten rearing it’s stupid bullthick head again.
Maybe if I just fight fire with fire and say the exact same things I’ve said months ago in response to refute these kittenroach opinions.
I honestly don’t get how they haven’t died the deaths they should have died by now. Surely there’s only a finite amount of stubborn wrongheadedness in the universe.

/end rant, until the same voices bring up the exact same bullkitten again a month or so from now, if even that long.

(This isn’t aimed at any one person here btw, I don’t know if it actually is the same people, but it’s definitely still saying the same things, and there’s only so many times you can try explaining objectivity in data, echo chamber effects, basic statistics, playstyle preference variances, etc etc etc before patience snaps and you realise that knowledge doesn’t penetrate a certain kind of skull)

Swagger.1459:

Aphs.9528:

not really , the votes you see from the poll are from like 3 months ago way before discord.

Ok, so can you disclose all your info about this topic?

“because the majority who voted for it only go EOTM , PVE and people who only enter WvW for dailies”

How many total players voted for dbl?

How many of those voters only go to eotm?

How many of those voters only pve?

How many of those voters only enter wvw for dailies?

How does your information counter what McKenna said?

If 75% really did vote for desert bl than why is there hardly anyone on that map ?

Meh you’re going about this all wrong.

You shouldn’t remove the desert bl, you should remove the red team from the matchup. I mean if red is basically a k-trained side anyways you might as well take that side out and leave their structures neutral for capture. Then merge servers, close transfers, and have 3 server matchups become 2 server matchups, which both have alpines as their home bl. Fighting for second place becomes meaningless, both servers have to fight to win.

P.S The voting was done already multiple times. Do you expect people that voted for desert bl to show it in their signature or something for proof to you?

The proof is here that 70% + people are not happy about desert bl
-http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=585d28afe4b09017a83c32d8

Anyway my solution would be remove desert bl from WvW and separate it just like EOTM and add 3 factions. Doing this would help with balance in WvW and the people who love desert bl will get way more action as well. Is that a bad idea ? It’s a win-win for everyone

Aphs.9528:

The proof is here that 70% + people are not happy about desert bl
-http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=585d28afe4b09017a83c32d8

Anyway my solution would be remove desert bl from WvW and separate it just like EOTM and add 3 factions. Doing this would help with balance in WvW and the people who love desert bl will get way more action as well. Is that a bad idea ? It’s a win-win for everyone

That’s still not proof. No matter how many times you decide to call it that. And I don’t think “everyone” would agree that your solution is any kind of a win. Unless your definition of everyone is similar to the one used when someone says “everyone hates DBL”, ie. a small subset of people who have a hard time believing that their opinion was in the minority and jump through mental hoops to convince themselves that it’s couldn’t possibly be them, it must have been the data that was out of touch.

But..
How long a has the poll ran for? Maybe the desert people are not online right now!
There’s no sign in to vote, any joe tom dena harriet can vote on that.
How do we know all the haters didn’t just vote multiple times?
Did you only tell the maguuma server players to vote?
Did you send emails to all the players that have 1000 wxp levels and gained at least 10 ranks this week to vote?
Did you also send emails to the veterans who played 4 years ago to come vote?

The poll was on this forum and it was removed . People can still vote for it .

Desert BL is bad and anyone who thinks the vote was good (accurate) or mattered needs to get a better argument. If you really think game design by Reddit Democacy is how MMO’s should be done, I don’t even know how to make a case that can appeal to reality that warped.

It’s subjectively, by the opinions of most WvW’ers (not reddit people that have sympathy kittens for this dev team), a bad map. It’s is objectively not a fun map to the vast majority that log on to WvW. There’s been how many thread citing actual numbers about how little people enjoy playing that map? a dozen? The numbers don’t lie, it’s just not fun.

Pinko.2076:

Desert BL is bad and anyone who thinks the vote was good (accurate) or mattered needs to get a better argument. If you really think game design by Reddit Democacy is how MMO’s should be done, I don’t even know how to make a case that can appeal to reality that warped.

It’s subjectively, by the opinions of most WvW’ers (not reddit people that have sympathy kittens for this dev team), a bad map. It’s is objectively not a fun map to the vast majority that log on to WvW. There’s been how many thread citing actual numbers about how little people enjoy playing that map? a dozen? The numbers don’t lie, it’s just not fun.

Oh, Rashagar! Here’s a prime example of one of those people doing mental gymnastics to try to prove that their opinion (which lost a majority vote) is absolute! But no…we’re the ones with a warped sense of reality…

I love DBL and voted for it – guilty as charged XD
Fantastic map, and I love having the advantage of knowing all the nooks and crannies so that I can defend/attack the map when needed. I think if people spent more time on it to learn its ins & outs and let go of their hate for it, maybe their minds would change. It’s a really fun map and I think people just need to get to know it better. I do think of course there is no changing some people’s minds that are set on hating it, which is fine – not everyone likes the same things.

I love dbl as well and would miss it immensely. It was actually my first map since I started playing gw2 right when HOT came out. I was honestly underwhelmed by alpine when I first saw it because DBL is so expansive and filled with places to go. It took me like 20 minutes to know every location on alpine in contrast. I prefer alpines keeps, but I much prefer DBLS towers. The alpine towers honesty completely suck compared to the towers in DBL. DBL is a fantastic map and Anet did a really good job with it, it honestly makes me sad how quick people are to dismiss because of it’s higher learning curve.

You guys complaining about DBL are probably the PUGS that hand over free loot bags to the enemy zergs all day in the extremely overplayed and worst map EBG. Do you guys even roam? Probably not because DBL is in my opinion the most fun map for roaming.

ProDecius.2609:

I was honestly underwhelmed by alpine when I first saw it because DBL is so expansive and filled with places to go. It took me like 20 minutes to know every location on alpine in contrast.

FYI, WvW isn’t about “exploring”, that’s what the pve maps are for.

But I highly doubt you even know about the many golem hiding spots all around in alpines, or where the best siege placements are, and when you see those spots and how connected the camps, towers, and keeps are, you start to see how much more better alpines is that regards to map play. Desert pretty much has everything separated.

ProDecius.2609:

I love dbl as well and would miss it immensely. It was actually my first map since I started playing gw2 right when HOT came out. I was honestly underwhelmed by alpine when I first saw it because DBL is so expansive and filled with places to go. It took me like 20 minutes to know every location on alpine in contrast. I prefer alpines keeps, but I much prefer DBLS towers. The alpine towers honesty completely suck compared to the towers in DBL. DBL is a fantastic map and Anet did a really good job with it, it honestly makes me sad how quick people are to dismiss because of it’s higher learning curve.

You guys complaining about DBL are probably the PUGS that hand over free loot bags to the enemy zergs all day in the extremely overplayed and worst map EBG. Do you guys even roam? Probably not because DBL is in my opinion the most fun map for roaming.

It’s fantastic how, exactly?

You run around and don’t see another person on it- is that good?

You run around and get jumped by a group of 4 ‘roamers’ playing stealth infused characters?

You run around doing pve?

You run around pvd?

You run around capping flags and camps?

A tower is attacked by a ninja party, by the time you’ve finished checking every possible attack spot they have downed the walls and are now at Lord?

There are lots of places to go..and do nothing and see no one. it’s not known as the Deserted Borderlands for nothing.

Even trying to get people to go to it is a struggle, even if it has the only tag online on it, or if you are forming a guild raid- because it’s the worst possible place to go to get fights, and you can end up running around the map achieving almost nothing compared to the other maps.

DBL is a roamer’s paradise- you can run around it all day and only engage people you know you can beat, or just go over or under anyone you don’t want to meet. But for large scale warfare, it’s a disaster.

All the arguments for getting rid of DBL can just as easily be used to justify getting rid of Alpine BL as well.

Much less active than EBG? Check. Much more PVD? Check. Much more running around to get anywhere? Check.

We should clearly get rid of all the BLs, get rid of EotM, and just have EBG by this argument. Which would just be silly. We need maps that are different, even maps that are less popular. Nothing would be more boring than having four identical maps to play on.

Baldrick.8967:

ProDecius.2609:

I love dbl as well and would miss it immensely. It was actually my first map since I started playing gw2 right when HOT came out. I was honestly underwhelmed by alpine when I first saw it because DBL is so expansive and filled with places to go. It took me like 20 minutes to know every location on alpine in contrast. I prefer alpines keeps, but I much prefer DBLS towers. The alpine towers honesty completely suck compared to the towers in DBL. DBL is a fantastic map and Anet did a really good job with it, it honestly makes me sad how quick people are to dismiss because of it’s higher learning curve.

You guys complaining about DBL are probably the PUGS that hand over free loot bags to the enemy zergs all day in the extremely overplayed and worst map EBG. Do you guys even roam? Probably not because DBL is in my opinion the most fun map for roaming.

It’s fantastic how, exactly?

You run around and don’t see another person on it- is that good?

You run around and get jumped by a group of 4 ‘roamers’ playing stealth infused characters?

You run around doing pve?

You run around pvd?

You run around capping flags and camps?

A tower is attacked by a ninja party, by the time you’ve finished checking every possible attack spot they have downed the walls and are now at Lord?

There are lots of places to go..and do nothing and see no one. it’s not known as the Deserted Borderlands for nothing.

Even trying to get people to go to it is a struggle, even if it has the only tag online on it, or if you are forming a guild raid- because it’s the worst possible place to go to get fights, and you can end up running around the map achieving almost nothing compared to the other maps.

DBL is a roamer’s paradise- you can run around it all day and only engage people you know you can beat, or just go over or under anyone you don’t want to meet. But for large scale warfare, it’s a disaster.

So what you’re saying is… there are variances in… playstyle… preferences? My god, what a revelation! People like different things! Which obviously means those people are wrong and we should instead only cater to one type of player. The right type. That think exactly like I do. Since they’re the only real players.

Caliburn.1845:

All the arguments for getting rid of DBL can just as easily be used to justify getting rid of Alpine BL as well.

Much less active than EBG? Check. Much more PVD? Check. Much more running around to get anywhere? Check.

We should clearly get rid of all the BLs, get rid of EotM, and just have EBG by this argument. Which would just be silly. We need maps that are different, even maps that are less popular. Nothing would be more boring than having four identical maps to play on.

I’d argue removing all maps because map design for a 1v1v1 is generally bad, and lacks significant variation to begin with. On the other side, I don’t expect WvW’s current budget to change it to a 1v1 setup. Although…doing so would remove the elephant in the room (three way lag issue), and be easier to balance in the long run.

Chinchilla.1785:

On the other side, I don’t expect WvW’s current budget to change it to a 1v1 setup. Although…doing so would remove the elephant in the room (three way lag issue), and be easier to balance in the long run.

It can be done, just remove the 3rd side and leave their structures as neutral for capture on ebg, and you can remove the 3rd borderland. Then just merge servers, raise map caps, raise server caps so there’s the same amount of players for two sides in total as there is for three, or not if you want to cut down in ebg lag.

I’d prefer to move the other way and have 4 or even five servers on a map, 2-3 maps total.

Also, some form of penalty applied to the team with the most structures, so the more you hold the harder it is to hold onto it.

However, this would involve dev time, so not going to happen in my lifetime.

1v1 would be a step backwards- one side would over blob the other, and without a third team added in, would be very boring very quickly. More teams gives more tactics and more possibilities.

@Rash, none of my list was meant to denigrate people who might enjoy their wondering pve time – but there is a whole world for them to do that, it’s called pve. 1v1 or small scale skirmish you can have much more of that in spvp. To most of the wvw people I speak to, they would rather not have the map as tactically it’s awful. ‘omg the capped fire keep’. So? has zero effect- you can even run over the top of it, it has no impact on any other structure or even path.

DBL is just a collection of structures that have little to no effect on each other, connected by verticals that were clearly meant for a pve map with gliding enabled.

In fact, DBL when it came out looked like it belonged next to Silverwastes and was just a repurposed pve map that they didn’t have a pve use for.

Caliburn.1845:

We should clearly get rid of all the BLs, get rid of EotM, and just have EBG by this argument. Which would just be silly. We need maps that are different, even maps that are less popular. Nothing would be more boring than having four identical maps to play on.

Would it be silly though?

We could easily have 4 EBs in a matchup. Population low, the servers can only queue 1 of the EBs? Then have 2 EBs for lower and more balanced scores (50% max of 4 EBs). More people coming online in primetime? Open up another EB. Simple and effective instancing based on populations.

Of course in an ideal world we would have 4 differently designed 3-way EBs (castle on one, ruins on another in a jungle setting, maybe huge quaggan infested lake on the third in a winter setting, etc etc) but what are you going to do.

I wonder how boring people would really think it is. People still play EoTM and that’s only 1 map, over and over and over again. People still stay in 100 man queues and AFK on borders in order to play that boring map.

Baldrick.8967:

@Rash, none of my list was meant to denigrate people who might enjoy their wondering pve time – but there is a whole world for them to do that, it’s called pve. 1v1 or small scale skirmish you can have much more of that in spvp. To most of the wvw people I speak to, they would rather not have the map as tactically it’s awful. ‘omg the capped fire keep’. So? has zero effect- you can even run over the top of it, it has no impact on any other structure or even path.

DBL is just a collection of structures that have little to no effect on each other, connected by verticals that were clearly meant for a pve map with gliding enabled.

In fact, DBL when it came out looked like it belonged next to Silverwastes and was just a repurposed pve map that they didn’t have a pve use for.

I might have been conflating your post with others, it’s become difficult to tell sometimes.

When it comes down to it though, my assessment of the map and the experiences I’ve had on it just doesn’t match your’s.

My preferences tend towards large scale disorganised combat, and from that perspective some of the most fun I’ve ever had in wvw has been on DBL.

I’m just trying to point out that your statements on what the map is aren’t universally recognised truths, they’re just an opinion that you’ve formed based on your experiences and heard a rough facsimile of echoed back to you from some others. That’s all my opinion is too. But the very fact that mine has found the chance to form in myself and others means that the map has the potential for it to form in still more people, if certain vocal and stubborn demographics could take their heads out of their kittens and end their desperate attempts to “be right after all”.

Because in all honesty, in the end 90+% of the complaints about the map boiled down to “it doesn’t seem to cater to my immediate preferences as they currently stand, or if it does I can’t be kitten d learning how”.

And after a while it just becomes exhausting dealing with people who think their opinion is gospel. And I’m not necessarily saying you do, again I might be conflating posts from multiple people and from multiple months ago at this stage because it’s always the same tired old excuses for why they believe that their opinion is the correct one that get trotted out and all I can think is just… evolve…

lol after a year and a half of gw2 I am still only pve mastery rank 9, I don’t pve. PVE has nothing to do with why I like DBL. The objectives in DBL are so numerous it becomes easy to spot the patterns of enemy roamers, I’ll I do is hunt these people down. Nah I don’t know where to hide golems because I never play siege wars 2, things like “blink spots” are much more interesting to me. Honestly if any map has too much PVE it’s EBG not DBL.

ThomasC.1056:

See ? Intense Zergs and blob fights are somehow mentioned, but they’re not the main focus. The focus is objectives, PPT, keeps, siege, supply caravans, etc.
I understand you’re unhappy about it, but it’s their design, and if you don’t like it, you may either leave the game, or stick to Alpine, which of course you can do every week.

Not really, they sold WvW on the “masive battles” that is why most people play a PvP type game mode, objectives are merely there to faciltate that, just like they are in SPvP, LOL, DOTA, the bomb in CS, etc..

Unfortunately the PPT aspect in WvW is so fundamentally flawed in design due to population/coverage rendering it meaningless as a competition, poor map design (all of them) producing mind numbing play for anyone vaguely sentient and so on, that large numbers of players basically ignore that aspect and simply play for the the “massive battles”.

Which is why the DB map is the least played, has the least kills/deaths on it, etc, because it is harder to find and quicky get to fights and it is easier to avoid fights than the other maps, so it basically appeals to a minority of players who consider hitting doors with no opposition as “gameplay”.

zinkz.7045:

ThomasC.1056:

See ? Intense Zergs and blob fights are somehow mentioned, but they’re not the main focus. The focus is objectives, PPT, keeps, siege, supply caravans, etc.
I understand you’re unhappy about it, but it’s their design, and if you don’t like it, you may either leave the game, or stick to Alpine, which of course you can do every week.

Not really, they sold WvW on the “masive battles” that is why most people play a PvP type game mode, objectives are merely there to faciltate that, just like they are in SPvP, LOL, DOTA, the bomb in CS, etc..

The issue here is not how they sold the game mode, but how they are selling it. I quoted the official website. I’m sorry it doesn’t meet the way it was sold, but I can do nothing about it. You better not stick to the shiny promises and hype train if you don’t want to roll down the endless disappointement cliff WvW seems to have become.

zinkz.7045:

Unfortunately the PPT aspect in WvW is so fundamentally flawed in design due to population/coverage rendering it meaningless as a competition, poor map design (all of them) producing mind numbing play for anyone vaguely sentient and so on, that large numbers of players basically ignore that aspect and simply play for the “massive battles”.

Which is why the DB map is the least played, has the least kills/deaths on it, etc, because it is harder to find and quicky get to fights and it is easier to avoid fights than the other maps, so it basically appeals to a minority of players who consider hitting doors with no opposition as “gameplay”.

I agree on both parts of that analysis.

Which leads me to an actual bigger issue. In my opinion, DBL was a try to shift the dial towards “more PPT”. Like the piles of junk you had near towersthat have been removed because they were “movement impairing”. Environmental effects (air blowers, walls, stealth near earth keep) have also been removed because of the “movement impairing” yells.

Of course they were ! That was the design. Issue is whenever ANet tries to implement a more PPT map, by creating it in such a way that’d deeply wound the omniblob gamestyle, a noisy bunch of players that are still sticking to their fantasies about what WvW should be in their opinion, yells so much that ANet seriously considered the option of flushing all their work down the toilet.

So that’s the “original sin” WvW bears. ANet currently advertises it for the PPT part (and I don’t care about the way it used to be advertised) while a whole bunch of players just want “epic battles”, ie nobrain faceroll their keyboard in a zerg.

To conclude : I’m not fond of the zerg playstyle. Yet I’m not popping a thread every week asking for ABL to be removed because it favors that playstyle (not that much, but eventhough). I admit it : I enjoy DBL for various reasons, the lack of blobs there being one, even if I’m not so fond of desertic landscapes.

So please, DBL-haters, allow me to have fun, just like I’m allowing you to have fun by not caring that much about the way you’re taking WvW, as long as it doesn’t prevent me from having fun with the way I’m taking it.

Thank you.

Baldrick.8967:

I’d prefer to move the other way and have 4 or even five servers on a map, 2-3 maps total.

Also, some form of penalty applied to the team with the most structures, so the more you hold the harder it is to hold onto it.

However, this would involve dev time, so not going to happen in my lifetime.

1v1 would be a step backwards- one side would over blob the other, and without a third team added in, would be very boring very quickly. More teams gives more tactics and more possibilities.

I can understand why something other than 1v1 would appear alluring initially. Let’s assume servers are magical and can handle our current 3 way situation.

I would advise widening your perspective by going out and trying to understand why countless other games do 1v1. And why they didn’t do 1v1v1 (Or more…). What ‘tactics’ and ‘strategies’ does 1v1v1 (or more) introduce or take away from 1v1?

At the end of the day, it’s the map design itself that determines the behavior in regards to ‘tactics’ not the addition of teams. 1v1v1 (or more) tends to lead to a ring style map that lends itself to the dreaded ktrain that I believe most would rather avoid.

This was already evident in map variation even within an old game as Star Craft (the first one). Compare the number of varied maps of a 1v1 setup to a 1v1v1 setup: http://classic.battle.net/scc/lp/2.shtml

Dawdler.8521:

Caliburn.1845:

We should clearly get rid of all the BLs, get rid of EotM, and just have EBG by this argument. Which would just be silly. We need maps that are different, even maps that are less popular. Nothing would be more boring than having four identical maps to play on.

Would it be silly though?

Yes it would be, because not everyone likes ebg, or alpines, or desert, or eotm. Makes no sense trying to lock players for weeks or months at a time out of the map they do enjoy, however many that might be, that’s forcing people not to play. Taking alpines out for 6 months was a very damaging mistake to wvw.

And yes designing borderlands was a terrible mistake in the first place, gives them little option these days having 2 borderland maps. Every map should have been ebg in design.

Hey peeps, the polls have ended! Take a look!

McKenna Berdrow.2759:

The poll has ended! After removing all votes for “Don’t Count My Vote” the final results are:

65.5% No: The Desert Borderland map should continue to be supported.
34.5% Yes: The Desert Borderland map should be permanently disabled.

This means that the Desert Borderlands map will continue to be supported. Next, the Mixed Borderlands poll will be re-run to determine how the Desert Borderlands map will re-enter play. Thank you to everyone who voted!

McKenna Berdrow.2759:

The poll has ended! After removing all votes for “Don’t Count My Vote” the final results are:

78.5% Simultaneous Borderlands
21.5% Rotating Borderlands quarterly

This means that the team will add the Desert Borderlands back into play as one of the Borderlands maps and will keep the other two maps as the Alpine Borderlands. Thank you to everyone who voted!

I love how people complained that it was impossible to defend on DBL when it was every map. Now, they’re complaining that it’s too much of a defensive advantage when it’s just one.

I almost started posted numbers again, but obviously facts have no place here.