Guild Wars 2

For those out there posting ideas for a better reward system and don’t read Reddit, here’s something Devon Carver mentioned on a thread in the GW2 Reddit a few hours ago;

“That is a large part of the issue. Essentially any change to WvW rewards has to be balanced against the idea that players, servers, etc. might collude with one another to just farm rewards. That said, there is one thing that is true of WvW, which is the actual rewards are higher than the perceived ones. Mostly because rewards come in a very small, but steady drip drip drip from kills, etc. That said, the mastery stuff is a different problem.”

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3rwlfk/what_is_the_justification_for_the_rewards_being/cws0kg9

So we’re to GvG on home border for our rewards and ignore the PPT system?

Really though, I barely make enough money from WvW loot to cover paying for my food and stones.

Yet rewards in PvE come cascading down like a waterfall. What’s his point?

And why is he posting on reddit? Why not on these official WvW forums?

He’s not made a post on any of the officical forums for over a year now!

3 years.
3 kittening years.
I understand that balancing WvW rewards is delicate because it is a pretty complex system, but after 3 years without a single significant improvement I don’t think anymore that the issue is this difficulty. I believe the biggest issue is just the lack of effort of trying to improve it or caring about it.

My response, as per pretty much everything stated by Mr. Carver.

“Do you even WvW bro?”

The statements I do not find out of touch with World vs World only, but with the entirety of the game itself and how it handles item acquisition. I am sorry, but it is extremely difficult to ever consider the possibility of the statements being true in the context of the game itself. Also, I’ve spent 20 minutes trying to sound nicer, but I can’t. Nothing personal.

Woah woah woah, we cant have our forum specialist dissing the great and powerful Devon Carver who saved WvW from the brink of becoming a empty desolate place like our new desert borderland map!

“That is a large part of the issue. Essentially any change to WvW rewards has to be balanced against the idea that players, servers, etc. might collude with one another to just farm rewards.”

It would take alot of loot to make this more profitable than PvE. The Waypoints are so far aswell. First 1 of the sides has to die than the other side have to die to pay them back. So it would still take at least take the double amount of time for kills compared PvE. So it should really take ALOT of rewards to make this type of play more rewarding than PvE. This type of play would even be more boring than PvE. xD

Just cap the amount of wvw rewards an account can receive to some (PVE equivalent) amount over a 3 hour period. After reaching the cap only allow a 10% chance to receive the full reward. After 3 hours the cycle starts again. Is it truly that hard?

Ultimaistanza.4793:

For those out there posting ideas for a better reward system and don’t read Reddit, here’s something Devon Carver mentioned on a thread in the GW2 Reddit a few hours ago;

“That is a large part of the issue. Essentially any change to WvW rewards has to be balanced against the idea that players, servers, etc. might collude with one another to just farm rewards. That said, there is one thing that is true of WvW, which is the actual rewards are higher than the perceived ones. Mostly because rewards come in a very small, but steady drip drip drip from kills, etc. That said, the mastery stuff is a different problem.”

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3rwlfk/what_is_the_justification_for_the_rewards_being/cws0kg9

Wait wait wait… but there is a very simple answer to this emboldened statement. It is called reward tracks.

Diru.4531:

Just cap the amount of wvw rewards an account can receive to some (PVE equivalent) amount over a 3 hour period. After reaching the cap only allow a 10% chance to receive the full reward. After 3 hours the cycle starts again. Is it truly that hard?

If they capped it to PvE eqvivalent rewards, we would have 10x better rewards in WvW in worst case scenario. I like that idea.

Archon just tried the same.

That said, I’m EOTM afraid of increased rewards in WVW.

Buy Some Apples.6390:

Yet rewards in PvE come cascading down like a waterfall. What’s his point?

And why is he posting on reddit? Why not on these official WvW forums?

He’s not made a post on any of the officical forums for over a year now!

Because Reddit has a working search function

IMO the rewards shouldn’t come from thin air in WvW. It should be a “put your money where your mouth is” type of gameplay. For example blue team puts 100g down that they’ll take SM in the next hour and red team puts 100g down that they’ll defend and the side that wins pulls out 200g. WvW needs somekind of zero sum risk/reward system IMO to keep it really interesting.

I agree with the sentiment that you have to be careful when rewarding players in a PvP-style environment, because people will do anything to guarantee their rewards. One of the only ways I can see it working is if the rewards for two servers are distributed for competing reasons, such as one world being more rewarded for taking an objective, while another world is more rewarded for defending it. There’s no real trading in that scenario, unless the attackers trigger the defense reward to equate to a successful attack, then the defenders let the attackers in. However, if people stoop to that degree to avoid any sort of competition to strictly gain reward, then there’s probably no hope for any rewards in WvW ever.

As far as rewards for placement to incentivize competition, I think the “we can’t win against X world, so I might as well not even play” mentality will hit hard and encourage worlds to drop hard out of a tier/match-up so they can be 1st in a lower tier for more rewards.

I know I’m quite cynical when it comes to this, but I really think the players themselves are their own worst enemy in trying to make WvW work.

That’s funny, they left eotm more rewarding than wvw for more than a year and half, only recently adjusting it to wvw levels of rewards.

They throw the other pvp side a lot of rewards with tracks that you really don’t really need to leave pvp to do pve now.

Obviously they don’t want a situation like the “Realm Avenger” achievement for the Ultimate Dominator title, where players just sat in obsidian sanctum and farmed each other for hours on end.

So get creative? give everyone a personal reward track to work on but make the reward points random for everyone? like at 10% capture a tower to get the champ chest, 20% capture a camp to get the champ chest etc, the next time the track runs again at 10% capture a sentry, 20% capture a keep instead? In between the capture nodes give the same small rewards from spvp?

All I’m hearing is excuses to not work on something rewarding for WvW. It’s apparently ok for players to train around a pve map doing events to get meta event rewards, it was ok for eotm players to train around for rewards for a year and a half, but if a wvw players were to do it, it would be a big no no.

P.S Devon won’t post on here because I don’t think he’s got a flame kittenant suit good enough to step into these forums.

ArchonWing.9480:

My response, as per pretty much everything stated by Mr. Carver.

“Do you even WvW bro?”

Is this guy still in charge of WvW ?? Well no wonder then that things are like they are.

Buy Some Apples.6390:

And why is he posting on reddit? Why not on these official WvW forums?

He’s not made a post on any of the officical forums for over a year now!

In the past Mr Carvers ideas for WvW where so awesome that the community could not handle them, i guess he decided to share his awesomeness with a broader audience.

Buy Some Apples.6390:

Yet rewards in PvE come cascading down like a waterfall. What’s his point?

Not to mention in EOTM, its a silly statement which has no basis in reality.

Besides rewards… WvW is also missing depth – at least in my personal opinion.

By depth I mean why even fight or wage war against each other? Like all those epic battles that go on, what for?

There was a game couple of years ago, that had very literal depth to it’s war system. Every 4 hours a war would happen between the 3 races on the server, the war would last till one side would win (hell it could take 3 hours… but i think there was a cut-off), after a side won they got to mine resources that were only available for the side that had won. These resources would make the winning side stronger, in turn better for the next war, and better in other aspects of the game like “PvE”. In “PvE”, other races could still kill each other… So… if you saw players from another race leveling, you would want to kill them, because that would hurt their progress in making themselves stronger for war. If you knew guilds from other races were doing PvE bosses, you would want to get your guild rallied and go stop them, to again prevent them from getting loot and making themselves stronger for the next war. In turn every kind of action you did, kind of aided you in the next war – gained a few levels, got better gear, prevented other races from level or getting gear. There was a motive for war and for everything that’s not war (that is to get better for war). War was a BIG deal in that game, so-much-so that if you were in a guild and the war was happening and yet you weren’t participating, you would most likely be shamed by the guildies…

One race completely dominating other races didn’t really happen, since when it did happen (for a brief say few days (1-3)) the other two races would mutually ally each other to gang up on the one that was dominating them. Their alliance won’t last long either, because one side would always want to win more so it would screw over it’s ally causing drama and what-not, but really keeping the war balanced…

Now, that’s a massive amount depth to the war system, I’ve tried to keep the description/explanation short… But you get the picture, hopefully.

With GW2 moto of “play how you want and for fun”, it’s not possible to that degree. Yet, it can have more depth and impact than it currently has. For instance, the tiny WvW buffs that could get adjusted to be much much higher and lower if you’re on the losing end, even adding new buffs like magic find and exp… Making them have 100% or so for winning and like 10% for loosing, maybe 50% for the world in the middle… Maybe adding vendors that only sell you stuff if you’ve won the war. Suddenly people will care if they have that buff or not, causing them to participate in WvW, or at least do better for their world…

The other thing is the duration of the war, currently it’s 1 week, as epic as it is, it better have an epic “reward” at the end of that 1 week – 15% gather/crafting boost, some bonus chests (that give blues and greens) doesn’t cut it… Perhaps 2 days worth of something special? Again, those vendors, maybe a map only accessible the the victors of the war… Have the war run on monday to friday and the weekend for reaping the rewards… Optionally, have the war only last a day and then a buff/reward (while another war is taking place) be placed on the next day.

This perhaps could be an indirect solution to the current reward problem. Duration of war and the buffs/rewards at the end that I’ve suggested are just examples… They could be other things, other systems… Just the way it stands right now, the 1 week “war” is really non-existent, and is just a set of maps… So of course people will compare the rewards of WvW to PvE.

And don’t talk about WvW tournaments, that are far to few and far too lengthy, not to mentioned lower-end worlds get screwed anyway. :P

(~Tired late night rant~)

(Also, borderlands don’t feel nearly as borderlandy as they were in GW1, EB is a good no-mans ground, but the ABs really had that push-and-pull feel the to the borderland and middle/no-mans land. But yeah, that would be a bit more complicated to implement in gw2 – but not impossible either.)

Ultimaistanza.4793:

For those out there posting ideas for a better reward system and don’t read Reddit, here’s something Devon Carver mentioned on a thread in the GW2 Reddit a few hours ago;

“That is a large part of the issue. Essentially any change to WvW rewards has to be balanced against the idea that players, servers, etc. might collude with one another to just farm rewards. That said, there is one thing that is true of WvW, which is the actual rewards are higher than the perceived ones. Mostly because rewards come in a very small, but steady drip drip drip from kills, etc. That said, the mastery stuff is a different problem.”

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3rwlfk/what_is_the_justification_for_the_rewards_being/cws0kg9

still waiting to spend my 30k badges on something usefull and no, upgrading siege in mf is not usefull its a waste of time

either introduce a reward track for wvw or put there an npc to trad badges vs actual items /materials and not siege bullkitten

draugris.9872:

ArchonWing.9480:

My response, as per pretty much everything stated by Mr. Carver.

“Do you even WvW bro?”

Is this guy still in charge of WvW ?? Well no wonder then that things are like they are.

Would you prefer I was?

And no they arent. They are supposed to write reports for the WvW team, so Devon can have his coffee and post on reddit, instead reading through all these posts and talking to us.

You kind of have to take everything Devon says with a pinch of salt, he has been a ghost on the WvW front for 18+ months, he made a post a couple of years ago about WvW going forward yadda yadda and when it didn’t come to light, he disappeared from the forums when people started asking, the fact that the new WvW rewards are bad, the new maps are bad, and big wvw guilds are bailing, yet Anet think WvW is a success says it all really.

Amazing how out of touch they still are.

You know I would have been happy if they just made a new wvw skin or legendary backslot item for badges/memories of battle. I do not think A-net has a group of wvw develops anymore. The last couple of A-net video I have seen had no wvw devs talking on it.

Heh, reset night granted me an ascended weapon chest (cleric, time to change stats) and a black lion key. I guess the RNG must be tuned to shut me up. Also, there was a mysterious Anet hero banner at spawn….

Oh wait, the Key opened a friggin repair canister, a celebratory booster and a scrap. Meh. :/ To be fair, that has more to do with BL chests being dumb, not wvw.

That being said, I’ve never felt compelled to go into pve to gather gold or materials, with the exception of the recent hero point grind. Notaries are honestly a joke because they are so RNG driven. I do of course, do a bit to help matters out, but I’ve never been like “broke”, though that is a subjective concept. I do realize however, that pve would have given me a lot more stuff (like 5-10x more? Problem in WvW is there can easily be droughts in itams due to losing, defending, not finding enemies, or just preparing for stuff. ) I suppose if I were to go for a legendary this would have changed.

John Corpening (sp?) is over WvW I believe now. He tows the same party line and reposted the same ideas for improvement that were posted 2 years prior.

The fact is they probably want to improve WvW but dont have any resources.

If they present an idea and it never goes anywhere, that’s likely a problem above their heads. I am willing to try the new maps. my only issue with HoT is that WvW only guilds are now grind only guilds to get back buffs they previously had. A small WvW guild is even worse off seeing as there is no cost scaling. War room taking mine upgrades which are in nature grindy for people that dont play PvE.

Ley-line tools? Shovels? So now I have to pay PvE people just so I can eventually regain the same power level I had before.

Not to mention the new features “Tactics and Improvements” that will likely never be used due to the outrageous cost PER USE.

Seriously, most people wouldn’t upgrade a tower for 15s, but you want them to drop 5 gold on a tactic that has to be manually activated?

Its as if things could not be patched if they pendulum swung too far in the direction of rewards in WvW. (well they probably wouldnt, just look how long the golem stuff went on with all its exploits)

So basically all they did was take away the cost to upgrade a structure with the auto upgrades, and shoved it onto even more expensive guild tactic and improvements upgrades. Brilliant.

Not to mention took away all the previous guild buffs to make us upgrade them again at ridiculous costs, we just bought an expansion to reset wvw guild progression.

Meanwhile they don’t want to reward wvw players for playing wvw more than it is currently. Cause you know getting some participation points in pve and then sitting in a corner collecting meta chests is so much more challenging.

None of this will be read cause they like reddit more than their own forums. GG Anet.

Ultimaistanza.4793:

For those out there posting ideas for a better reward system and don’t read Reddit, here’s something Devon Carver mentioned on a thread in the GW2 Reddit a few hours ago;

“That is a large part of the issue. Essentially any change to WvW rewards has to be balanced against the idea that players, servers, etc. might collude with one another to just farm rewards. That said, there is one thing that is true of WvW, which is the actual rewards are higher than the perceived ones. Mostly because rewards come in a very small, but steady drip drip drip from kills, etc. That said, the mastery stuff is a different problem.”

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3rwlfk/what_is_the_justification_for_the_rewards_being/cws0kg9

That is false.

The full WvW rewards come only in T1 when its constant or stead blob wiping. outside of that you do not receive anywhere near the same rewards per time spent as in PvE.

Also, in PvE you get far more rares and exotics then in WVW because of the guaranteed drops and event completion chests / bags, vs blues and greens in WVW, so as far as loot goes, it is not just quantity which is not achievable unless constant blob wiping, but also quality of it. You just get the more expensive mats and salvage in PvE, thus better loot rewards.

Now the 2nd part of rewards, horizontal progression, mainly, specs and guild halls. PvE vs WVW. You get a vastly disproportionate amount of hero points in the 2 game modes, and mats for Guild Hall grinds, none of which seem to come from WVW. All the loot and mats in WVW seem to be the “old world”, none of the new stuff.

In addition to that, no recipes for the new stat gear, that is PVE only, some of it you can buy of off TP with enough gold, but again, if you are not blob wiping you will not have enough gold to do all this in the 1st place.

So from either aspect, the rewards are not equal, and on top of that, as stated above, WVW is vastly more expensive to play then other game modes. In fact, I myself often go on PVE grinds to get gold or mats for sale, so that I can WVW. This situation is improved with auto upgrades as I no longer have days where I spent 20-50 gold for upgrades, but its still pretty bad.

So if this guy is one of the head devs, and he can’t see the disparity between steady blob wiping and rest of WVW, then that is one of the sources of the problems in the game mode.

Tongku.5326:

The full WvW rewards come only in T1 when its constant or stead blob wiping. outside of that you do not receive anywhere near the same rewards per time spent as in PvE.

Also, in PvE you get far more rares and exotics then in WVW because of the guaranteed drops and event completion chests / bags, vs blues and greens in WVW, so as far as loot goes, it is not just quantity which is not achievable unless constant blob wiping, but also quality of it. You just get the more expensive mats and salvage in PvE, thus better loot rewards.

Now the 2nd part of rewards, horizontal progression, mainly, specs and guild halls. PvE vs WVW. You get a vastly disproportionate amount of hero points in the 2 game modes, and mats for Guild Hall grinds, none of which seem to come from WVW. All the loot and mats in WVW seem to be the “old world”, none of the new stuff.

…

This ^^

I suspect that the Arenanet top WvWvW developers haven’t spent much time playing their own game. Their ideas and views when it comes to WvWvW are so out of contact with the core player base and reality. Plea to devs: discuss with your players and do NOT cherry pick those players who are already happy with the existing changes and system.

WvWvW is the hardest game mode to balance, but so far they haven’t even tried. We still haven’t had any WvWvW related profession balance patches. The skill balance is still centered on spvp, which is totally different than WvWvW.

The rewards are absolutely trash now, because large scale fights are almost totally gone outside EBG even in EU tier #1. I can barely imagine how quiet it is on low tiers. WvWvW must be more or less dead in low tiers.

WvWvW player base revival needs many things, which include:

1. Improved rewards. Just copy & paste the spvp reward tracks to WvWvW and make them so that an average WvWvW player can complete 1 track in 2 hours.

2. Arenanet must stop forcing players to play the game mode their way. They seem to really love the EotM / Dry Top / HoT pve / Desert BL style of maps, full of gimmicks and where main obstacle is to travel from A to B. Majority of players want simpler maps and fast paced epic large scale fights, but there should also be ways to for solo and duo roamers to feel like 1 man army. And I don’t mean using some overpowered NPC event or using siege to hold off a zerg, but I mean 1-2 players should be able to capture towers and keeps reasonably fast. It is still possible, but takes considerably longer time and soloing the new lords if such a pain in the butt…

3. Make the game mode more beginner friendly (veteran WvWvW players will flame me for saying this). The Desert BL map is the opposite of beginner friendly. It is confusing and annoying even for the veterans. Just get rid of all the shrines, oasis event and NPC events, focus on making the game mode profitable and fun player-vs-player.

The key word should be FUN. WvWvW lost big part of it’s fun with the new mechanics + borderland.

Again, you can get more gold in 30 minutes playing in PvE than you can get 8 hours playing in WvW.

So yes Devon I can see how hard it can be to balance rewards for WvW.

Overall, I can see how he could be correct, but oftentimes, I get very little reward. It’s only when there’s a PUG blob that we actually can destroy enough enemies to feel like I’m accumulating significant loot.

A competitive environment is inherently not very profitable, as one side is most likely going to lose and not gain profit. The threat of loss is going to be a very difficult concept to overcome when trying to add rewards to WvW.

“That is a large part of the issue. Essentially any change to WvW rewards has to be balanced against the idea that players, servers, etc. might collude with one another to just farm rewards.”

And instead of at least attempting a workaround, something, anything in three years they chose to do … nothing. Incredibly insulting to the playerbase. They literally treat us like second class citizens.

Ultimaistanza.4793:

“That is a large part of the issue. Essentially any change to WvW rewards has to be balanced against the idea that players, servers, etc. might collude with one another to just farm rewards.

Players DO collude to farm rewards. Its called EoTM, and YOU created it, Anet.

To all they players saying they have done nothing in 3 years, wake up. They added the WXP system which helps a lot for rewards in WvW. Not saying it’s in a good spot but they have done something.

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

To all they players saying they have done nothing in 3 years, wake up. They added the WXP system which helps a lot for rewards in WvW. Not saying it’s in a good spot but they have done something.

Sometimes they do things that make things worse (WXP, Edge of the Mists, desert borderland?), sometimes they do things that make things better (tourneys, culling, locked transfers).

I think the problem with WvW is that it is the hardest mode to run, I think. ArenaNet has the least control over what sort of experience you’ll have in WvW. PvE you know what people are facing wherever they are, PvP is basically just always 5v5.

As such, I will say that WvW rewards are hard to do. I can appreciate that they are having trouble doing it as well as other modes. You can have half an hour without finding a player, other times you kill a thousand players in an evening and that balance varies between tiers too.

S’why my preference is to “increase rewards” by reducing costs (maybe scale ascended to exotic stats! or lower the costs on food – that shouldn’t affect PvE much). I think giving WvW some unique armour sets or somethin for the achievements would be nice.

Plus so many people play WvW that there are a thousand different ideas about what it should be.

That’s why it is important to think and talk about to muddle our way through this. I think ArenaNet missed the ball on a lot of things when they launched WvW (transfers! Geez, what a headache those are) and this mode has very much just been them trying to figure it out. But that’s alright, a lot of the lessons I’ve learned about WvW are in hindsight.

Ultimaistanza.4793:

For those out there posting ideas for a better reward system and don’t read Reddit, here’s something Devon Carver mentioned on a thread in the GW2 Reddit a few hours ago;

“That is a large part of the issue. Essentially any change to WvW rewards has to be balanced against the idea that players, servers, etc. might collude with one another to just farm rewards. That said, there is one thing that is true of WvW, which is the actual rewards are higher than the perceived ones. Mostly because rewards come in a very small, but steady drip drip drip from kills, etc. That said, the mastery stuff is a different problem.”

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3rwlfk/what_is_the_justification_for_the_rewards_being/cws0kg9

I honestly don’t know why I keep thinking that somehow WvW will get better. This is worse than not understanding WvW, this is a complete write off statement. Basically, “yeah WvW rewards… really they are fine, you would know that already if you paid attention… anyway I have to figure out what to have for lunch. Laters!” It’s obvious by the lack of attention and “development” in WvW, but wow statements like these just hammer it home…

styx.7294:

Sometimes they do things that make things worse (WXP, Edge of the Mists, desert borderland?), sometimes they do things that make things better (tourneys, culling, locked transfers).

Wait you think WXP was bad for WvW? Care to explain your thoughs? Also I was just looking at rewards specifically not the whole of WvW since this is WvW themed thread.

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

To all they players saying they have done nothing in 3 years, wake up. They added the WXP system which helps a lot for rewards in WvW. Not saying it’s in a good spot but they have done something.

Yeah, two greens and one blue for hours of active gameplay sure helps a lot. Even if you mindless ktrain to farm wxp, the rewards are not even close to pve.
For example, just compare the ascended drop rate from wxp chests and fractals chests. This is a good example of how large the difference is. In the last 500 wxp levels, I got one ring. If I run 500 low level fractals, how many rings will I get? And even so the comparsion is unfair, because getting a rank level actually takes more effort and time than running a single fractal.

WXP system does not helps a lot.

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

styx.7294:

Sometimes they do things that make things worse (WXP, Edge of the Mists, desert borderland?), sometimes they do things that make things better (tourneys, culling, locked transfers).

Wait you think WXP was bad for WvW? Care to explain your thoughs? Also I was just looking at rewards specifically not the whole of WvW since this is WvW themed thread.

WXP links rewards to kills + objectives, the first of which favours higher tiers. The sort of thing it especially encourages you can see on Edge of the Mists.

I still think that WvW was better before WXP.

roamzero.9486:

IMO the rewards shouldn’t come from thin air in WvW. It should be a “put your money where your mouth is” type of gameplay. For example blue team puts 100g down that they’ll take SM in the next hour and red team puts 100g down that they’ll defend and the side that wins pulls out 200g. WvW needs somekind of zero sum risk/reward system IMO to keep it really interesting.

That sounds interesting. Too bad so many tiers are lop sided in terms of players/coverage right now. WIth the tiers like that, it might be hard to get two servers to agree to that very often. I really do think we need something to spice the game mode up without adding guards or kill 10 rats for a buff or something.

How about maybe every hour or so, start an event and have a call to arms for the most bad-kitten people to meet at a certain spot to fight it out for a prize and/or points. Make it even numbers depending on each sides total players on the maps at that time. Like 3v3 up to zerg vs zerg. When the event starts, only the ones who chose to fight(by hitting a yes or no icon or something)can attack/be attacked by the other side(so nobody trolls) in the area. Maybe sometimes make it a 3 way battle royal. And no siege or portals to run to in the fight area. If you leave the area, you’re out/downed or something. Maybe make the pve laser event area the battle area so it doesn’t clash with ppt-ers.

Devon, check your notes. I believe you were referring to EOTM.

There are people who shouldn’t take care of certain things.

Devon is one of those people.

My opinion

It is likely very easy to gradually bump the drop rate until they hit a more reasonable Gold-per-Hour in WvW that doesn’t cause issues in the economy. Instead they make statements about how players MIGHT game the system and don’t do anything.

Statements like this reinforce the idea that they are not very good at data analysis in their own system. I have been developing software and data systems for nearly 30 years professionally and I am embarrassed for them.

That’s so out of touch with reality, he must have talked to the usual coglin types whose maps are always full and always having huge fights and defences and ascended gear falls from the sky in waves.

Down here in the real wvw world you can log into wvw for an hour and get maybe two greens, 10 spikes and 25% of a wvw level (or less if you’re a scout).

Maybe they should repeat the ‘adopt a dev’, but this time they should have one per server, for one week, not allowed to reveal being an Anet employee nor join a large wvw guild. Then play wvw for 12 hours a day on that server, 7 days a week, and see how utterly terrible it now is. Then give their feedback on how likely it is that players will enjoy the game mode and perhaps want to stay and find out more about it. Oh, and no entering EB or EoTM, BL only.

Then compare their total loot to the average random wander through one of the new PVE maps where you can clock up millions of exp an hour and fill your bags up so quickly it’s not funny.

Then explain to whoever is vaguely connected to wvw their findings.

Are you not starting to see folks trickling back on SFR?

We were empty for a bit, but are now starting to see guild groups return and enemy blobs. Heck, even AR made an appearance yesterday

I think it’s starting to ease back, at least I hope so.

Ok, Devon seems to think that the $$/time rewards in WvW are good.

But where are the exclusive rewards?

Where are the achievement points (fewer for WvW than Pvp/PvE and harder to get)? Where are the WvW exclusive armors? (Some actually exist but are priced too cheaply making their acquisition trivial). Where are the exclusive weapons (the tournament reward weapons are a nice start) and minis?

And how come XP gained in WvW gives you nothing? Not even advancing a reward track? I think WvW lost a lot of people to PvE mastery grind. It’s lost me. I’m trying to finish my mastery before the PvE rush dies down and it becomes a slog to complete events or find people for story achievements.

styx.7294:

WXP links rewards to kills + objectives, the first of which favours higher tiers. The sort of thing it especially encourages you can see on Edge of the Mists.

I still think that WvW was better before WXP.

Ok, I see your point. Yea I just know no matter what you do you are getting slightly better rewards after the WXP (other than scouting which is 0 rewards before and after) but I suppose it does kinda promote playing in a different fashion.

Pink Ninja Man.4375:

styx.7294:

WXP links rewards to kills + objectives, the first of which favours higher tiers. The sort of thing it especially encourages you can see on Edge of the Mists.

I still think that WvW was better before WXP.

Ok, I see your point. Yea I just know no matter what you do you are getting slightly better rewards after the WXP (other than scouting which is 0 rewards before and after) but I suppose it does kinda promote playing in a different fashion.

Like, I said, WvW rewards are a tricky business. There’s a lot of different roles and things you can do in WvW and they don’t all pay equally well. It used to be less of a problem before you could make huge amounts in PvE (before basically Crown Pavilion Living Story if I recall correctly). No one really cared until you had to suddenly make ascended gear and achievements started paying.

The game just rewards you better for doing anything else (gold, mastery, skins, legendaries, achievements, titles). WvW’s saving grace is it is fun (when it’s not empty). Of course the most fun map was alpine, hahaha… =(

I can’t see the effort from Anet fixing the WvW scoring, rewards and server system. It’s been 3 years and barely anything changed:

- We have a EotM map that has no more purpose since there isn’t any queue anywhere and it doesn’t count for PPT.

- The new maps are empty because they are too big for the tier populations and they lack ways to travel to a fight fast.

- Rewards are way under other game modes

- The PPT system still only represent server population

- PPK was never implemented

- Ruin area was well designed but was made useless

- They never re-implemented the Orb even if they promised they would

- Maps are removed and we are instead given multiple copies of the same map

Like what’s happening? Anet has amazing artists making beautiful maps and then the implementation of their work is rushed in a manner that it becomes really difficult to enjoy it.

Rewards don’t have to be big, but WvW has to “feel” rewarding, and this can only be achieved by fixing the PPT system and having full maps. I don’t think Anet is watching the competition upcoming from other MMO carefully.

And that’s my comment on WvW reward balance. I am confident it is more accurate. Or maybe this if you must literally interpret it more to be nothing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZrgxHvNNUc