Guild Wars 2

If you do, add me to friends and taxi me into [EotM] (Venturers of the Mists) run maps. I’ll make sure they have plenty of siege/siege trolls giving them some opposition.

I am now committing to do just that when I end up in the EOTM karma train map; instead of leaving the map in disgust. Those guys are so nasty on mapchat if you say anything negative about their pathetically boring karma train. Time to turn the tables on them. I will fully siege up FR keep, and using my thief, the champ, and nearby gates, wreck them as much as possible. Only takes a few people that know what they are doing to wreck a zerg in there. I solo’d a medium-sized zerg there the other day.

Yes, I hate them and I made them ragequit maps a few times before by simply tagging up myself, collecting some good people and then attacking their zergs.

Reported this thread. The OP just admited he wants to “siege trolls” a guild.

xDudisx.5914:

Reported this thread. The OP just admited he wants to “siege trolls” a guild.

Many karma trainers think of anyone who defends (and uses defensive siege) to be a troll who is there to ruin their karma train. The OP may simply be stating their intent on defending and killing opposing zergs…which is the true intent of a competitive environment in the first place.

I’d join that defense team.
Did a few times and it can be really fun.

Wow… This is pathetic on both parts, honestly. Some of us such as myself like to go to EOTM to wind down after we’ve spent the entire day scouting, roaming and doing all the thankless jobs for our server. Then we find that there are people trolling on every side in Edge and we can’t even get a decent farm there? Fun…

How about people just let it go and accept the fact that Edge is not and never will be a real WvW map and PvE’rs like to farm there. So what if one guild controls all sides of the map a handfull of times a day? Any other times it’s total chaos and there are completely new commanders or very seasoned ones leading a massive train of PUGs.

I will just never understand why people get so infuriated over karma trains… If it were in the borderlands or EBG I might understand but this is freaking Edge, it doesn’t matter. I can’t say I’d support [EotM] for being rude to others but I’ve also seen them be polite. They’re a massive guild with very few requirements, of course there will be some a_sholes in it. You can’t blame the entire guild for a few bad seeds.

Anyway I think the people who just want to troll [EotM] are no better than the ones who are bullying others for defending… If I happen to catch anyone trying to troll, I’ll just troll them… And it’ll be troll on top of troll on top of troll because why not. If that’s how you’re going to combat things…

Trolls add flavor, that’s why anet put so many of them in SW.

http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1398/94/1398948413691.png
- Use necro walls to fear trains off ledges into death!
- Use suicide dunk warriors knock people off into death!
- Use stacked Ice bow 4s to flat out murder people with hail chunks dropping out of the sky in a sandstorm… INTO DEATH!
- Use properly positioned Lootstick walls to also bounce people into death!
- Use almost destroyed bridges that you break when a k-train comes… oh you get the point.

All of these options are way more fun, require less people and cause 1000 times more rage than a “ogranized siege defense because they arent playing properly har har har” guild. Just dont kill the solo uplevels if they dont attack you, some people want to get over with leveling for the 5th time fast.

killing uplevels with siege is lame, get some people together and go kill them the right way

Blix.8021:

killing uplevels with siege is lame, get some people together and go kill them the right way

heh hehe heheheh

Fighting in EotM is for scrubs. GB2 real wvw.

As someone who commonly commands for [eotm] and their 3 ways i can honestly say defenders make it fun and let us test how good of a commander we are. We do ktrains to help people get levels and karma but it can get boring running around with no defenders for 4 hours. Lots of commander enjoy seeing a defender and I know I do I guess I’ll see you out there :P

Everyone is entitled to play as they wish. Especially in EoTM. There’s a famous saying about pvp in pvp game modes that I think is appropriate in this and any situation involving players hating on or loving EoTM. “What will the wolf hunt if the sheep have no pastures?”.

Were I you, OP, I’d find more pvp oriented ways of disrupting their gameplay rather than wasting precious time and silver on base level siege trolling.

Here’s a video of how well [EoTM] can handle ‘defenders’.

SamNooby.2815:

As someone who commonly commands for [eotm] and their 3 ways i can honestly say defenders make it fun and let us test how good of a commander we are. We do ktrains to help people get levels and karma but it can get boring running around with no defenders for 4 hours. Lots of commander enjoy seeing a defender and I know I do I guess I’ll see you out there :P

Have fun commanding “3 ways” when your leader who loves 3.5 hour slow guild missions kicked or caused all the best/loved commanders in EotM to leave for no good reasons.

Lat night I went to EOTM for a short time. There was an EOTM guild commander but OG was wiping the floor with us as it was clearly not coordinated and he was in shock. Poor PVE guys were crying about how we needed to have a coordinated map so they could level up fast and asking for invites to the EOTM guild. Told them to go back to PVE land if they couldn’t handle playing the game as it was designed. The more fighting that takes place, the more chance this map will turn into a fun WvW alternative even if it won’t ever be at the same level as borderlands/EB. Fewer of the wimpy players will come and more lvl 80s will come for the fights and challenge. There is hope.

Sometimes their zerg is big enough to flip keeps even if you try hard to defend (unless you bring a lot of 80s on ts). Keep in mind that although most of their upscaled pugs are bad, EoTM commanders most of the time are players that command in normal wvw and know how to play. The do the eotm rotation a lot, so they know most/all siege spots and places that enemy can try to fear wall.

I have been in overflows controlled by EoTM guild with Anet’s devs playing low lvl characters and following the EoTM zerg because “it was fast to lvl”.

As far as following an specific commander going to his overflow just to troll and verbal abuse on map/team chat, people have been banned for that. In the other hand I’ve never seen an EoTM commander banned for synchronizing ktrain rotation.

If anet really wanted to stop that the easiest thing to do would be a nerf to exp and karma from flipping stuff in EoTM. Or make the reward scale based on the time the enemy was holding it.

I’ve never been banned for throwing trebs on gates, portals on chests, or manning an arrow cart in a keep. I probably do it more than anyone.

Now I would draw the line between legitimate defending/fighting and just being mean spirited with portals, killing your own team by destroying bridges, dropping junk food, nasty map chat, etc. I use map chat to get people to accept that the PVP aspects can be fun and that it is the obvious purpose of the map design; the dead-brain karma train is Boring.

I find that people really enjoy a balance of getting their Karma/exp and fighting as long as your group is competitive in fighting. That is the goal I shoot for when commanding although my personal preference is on the fighting side of it.

Venturers of the Mists and all other 3-way karma exploiters need to be stopped. If ArenaNet aren’t willing to do their jobs and ban them, the players will take matters into their own hands.

Watching 80% of a karma train being feared off a cliff is just too funny for words.

warduke.1780:

Venturers of the Mists and all other 3-way karma exploiters need to be stopped. If ArenaNet aren’t willing to do their jobs and ban them, the players will take matters into their own hands.

Watching 80% of a karma train being feared off a cliff is just too funny for words.

The funny thing is, even if you call out a necromancer ahead of time, most of the pugs ignore it and run into the trap anyway. Makes it very annoying at times to be a eotm commander

Xikky.3154:

ren you’re literally just mad because you got kicked from the guild..take a chill pill man

I heard you got kicked too…

I need the k train to level toons so …………..

warduke.1780:

Venturers of the Mists … need to be stopped.

Lol, oh no! They do things differently that I don’t quite understand or don’t enjoy, f_ck those guys!

This is the same kind of ignorant mentality religions have… You can’t grasp the emotions of others so condemn them as bad instead.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

warduke.1780:

Venturers of the Mists … need to be stopped.

Lol, oh no! They do things differently that I don’t quite understand or don’t enjoy, f_ck those guys!

This is the same kind of ignorant mentality religions have… You can’t grasp the emotions of others so condemn them as bad instead.

Do things differently? You mean when if you try to defend, they go to the keep and waste all supply building useless stuff? Or tell the commanders in the other flows where you placed siege? Or if you are going to try and ambush them in certain spots? Or if they don’t have all three commanders up, they bag hunt on the remaining color until they can force the commander there to leave? All the while condemning you in your flow for trying to play the game as a wvw map since it’s listed under wvw…

Is that what you mean by differently?

How about they grasp the emotions of acting that way toward others and perhaps people wouldn’t feel the need to wipe them out.

Whatever I don’t care what you do. I have no right to tell you anything but we will keep helping people level and get karma and honestly don’t care what you guys think. We have people thanking us all the time in game, way more than the 20 or so people raging on the forum about our ktrains

Xikky.3154:

ren you’re literally just mad because you got kicked from the guild..take a chill pill man

Minus lots of respect for that comment. If you were there for what I was kicked for you’d realize I don’t even care. I 99% would have left to ruin (what’s left of) his trains anyways, especially since he was hiding why he kicked Lord to stop more people from leaving rather than “privacy reasons”.

Elaina is a bad, ragey leader and legit had no reason to kick all his commanders. He kicked me for voicing my opinion before I had made up my mind to leave (hadn’t said anything bad mind you).

When you siege troll, tag troll, defend, bring in your guild zergs, etc, most people in that guild will rage, and rage hard, then leave the map.

I have no sympathy for those who want a synchronized k-train and cry when it is disrupted. It is like a welfare mentality, give me everything I want for my minimal effort. Anet broke those PVE champ-trains for a reason, they are toxic for the players even though they don’t realize it themselves.

There is much more to be gained from a game that challenges you than one that allows you to be successful as a mindless zombie. I actually feel altruistic in breaking this EOTM mindset and I believe that the players who experience successful PVP fighting gain a lot more game satisfaction then the mindless k-train zombies. These people are also the potential feedstock for the regular WvW so it is a worthwhile exercise to bring awareness about his major part of the game.

SamNooby.2815:

Whatever I don’t care what you do. I have no right to tell you anything but we will keep helping people level and get karma and honestly don’t care what you guys think. We have people thanking us all the time in game, way more than the 20 or so people raging on the forum about our ktrains

You care what we do when we send your ktrain flying off a cliff.

When that happens, you start using spies to call out where our necros are. A player dedicating their time to screwing with people playing the game properly, all for the good of your obnoxious guild.

Yeah, it’s time we put an end to your guild for good I think.

EU have this TKKG guild that try to do same, but soon every keep got defender and our side commander started rage us that we ruin their karma training. Well they usually probably 80 players in one side and two other side have only few poor guild members who doesn’t have gold to change server.

Ktrains are nice and great loot xp karma ect. I personally didn’t like the fact EOTM guild was threatening people if they didn’t comply. Even when saying we will tag down when you tag up, oh your a troll and will be banned! Anet will ban all you guys because you don’t listen to us! Have to be on tag! if you dare to squirrel on an uplevel you will be banned! Meaning they will use their whole guild to report you. Used to love following EOTM commanders, after being threatened screw them. I’ll listen to their threats when they pay me the amount I spent on this game.

TikaWayln.3074:

Ktrains are nice and great loot xp karma ect. I personally didn’t like the fact EOTM guild was threatening people if they didn’t comply. Even when saying we will tag down when you tag up, oh your a troll and will be banned! Anet will ban all you guys because you don’t listen to us! Have to be on tag! if you dare to squirrel on an uplevel you will be banned! Meaning they will use their whole guild to report you. Used to love following EOTM commanders, after being threatened screw them. I’ll listen to their threats when they pay me the amount I spent on this game.

Sadly this sort of thing is nothing new. Myself and others have posted screenshots of the appalling abuse instigated by this guild (the incitement of mass reporting for defending is their favorite tactic) but ArenaNet hasn’t acted beyond closing such threads. That guild’s latest claim is that ArenaNet devs run in their karma trains and thus have “endorsed” anything the guild does, which leads to even more toxic behavior by said guild.

TikaWayln.3074 if you are talking about the BL map I was just commanding not more than an hour ago, that was a troll. The player intentionally made player names similar to [EotM] members to give them a bad name. I just recently left the guild because so many people are getting kicked for apparently no reason D= I’m not sour about it, not everyone in the guild is bad and quite a few of them are still my friends. It’s just a bunch of drama that’s it. I enjoy EOTM and when ktrains go smoothly, the rewards are fantastic. But I too enjoy my fair share of PvP…. keep in mind though there are ALWAYS more than one EOTM map open at once. And when the guild is ktraining in ONE map, there is always another to join if you don’t like the boring grind. It really is not that big of a deal. Trolling someone because you are sour just seems like a waist of time to me.

Sister Xing.9072:

TikaWayln.3074 if you are talking about the BL map I was just commanding not more than an hour ago, that was a troll. The player intentionally made player names similar to [EotM] members to give them a bad name. I just recently left the guild because so many people are getting kicked for apparently no reason D= I’m not sour about it, not everyone in the guild is bad and quite a few of them are still my friends. It’s just a bunch of drama that’s it. I enjoy EOTM and when ktrains go smoothly, the rewards are fantastic. But I too enjoy my fair share of PvP…. keep in mind though there are ALWAYS more than one EOTM map open at once. And when the guild is ktraining in ONE map, there is always another to join if you don’t like the boring grind. It really is not that big of a deal. Trolling someone because you are sour just seems like a waist of time to me.

I don’t believe in trolling till that happened. And as far as I know the guy, I’m not gonna call him out on here, has been in EOTM for a long time. Once he started his rampage I started talking everything he said with a grain of salt and wrote not cussing not cursing but why.
Yes there will be always trolls map trolls are halerious. There will always be spies but the whole threatening no. The person who came in second did it nicer saying hey we’re taking over this instance as a ktrain please leave if that’s not your thing. The one before had a god complex thinking he could just yell im the boss you have to listen to me or else. Like I said the guild I love and hate to see it like this now cause I used to hunt for your guys instance to be in. Was always a bunch of really nice people. I do command and KTrain when I do so. But don’t tell me I have to listen to someone to the very last word or I will be banned. I know one or 20 ppl not following the EOTM commanders may do crap nothing but catch more flies with honey.

It was the same account name for both people. It was a troll. The two people he impersonated, against the rules of GW2, do not have the account name that those two characters shared. I personally know both of them, and I know it was a troll. The two people he impersonated would not threaten banning. They know Anet doesn’t support them, and they wouldn’t say things like that in team chat.

Sister Xing.9072:

It was the same account name for both people. It was a troll. The two people he impersonated, against the rules of GW2, do not have the account name that those two characters shared. I personally know both of them, and I know it was a troll. The two people he impersonated would not threaten banning. They know Anet doesn’t support them, and they wouldn’t say things like that in team chat.

Funny how your guild pulls the same spiel out every time. “It wasn’t us, it was trolls pretending to be us!”

You do realize there’s evidence of your guild in screenshots and TS recordings doing everything they’ve been accused of…

As do I, I have screens of that person being logged on and impersonating two different people with the same account name =) and it is stated in the GW2 rules, that impersonating another is not allowed. You can be sure I reported them with screenshots =)

and again as I said before, I’m no longer in that guild.

I am not against fighting in EoTM, but when someone gets to breaking the rules of the game and being hateful to other players just because they don’t like something….. That’s really childish.

" #1. While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players.

#5You may not impersonate any employee of ArenaNet Inc., NC Interactive, Inc., NCsoft Corporation or their affiliates, or impersonate any other person (including, without limitation, celebrities)."

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/legal/guild-wars-2-rules-of-conduct/

Sister Xing.9072:

As do I, I have screens of that person being logged on and impersonating two different people with the same account name =) and it is stated in the GW2 rules, that impersonating another is not allowed. You can be sure I reported them with screenshots =)

and again as I said before, I’m no longer in that guild.

This is exactly the same sort of thing we’ve heard again and again. And yet…

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2b5uib/trying_to_get_your_own_side_killed_and_fixing/

There’s a lot more evidence, too. One of your guild officers (I believe he was co-leader at one point) changes his character name every time a new scandal emerges. Your guild is the most toxic thing that’s happened to this game. And I say “your” guild because you claim not to be in the guild anymore, yet you’re defending them on here…

Some things to consider before jumping to conclusions…

1) We get impersonated a ton. People have pretended to be us on both reddit and these forums. There has also been fake guilds using an accent in the guild name to impersonate us. If you believe everything you read and fall for it, that is your fault for being oblivious-not the people trolling us.

2) We get up to 100 recruits per week and have up to 50 people in edge of the mists at a time. They could be any color and between the 5 or so overflows that are open at a time, which is 15 different map chats. It is impossible to admin everyone under these conditions so we can only do so to the best of our ability. You cannot judge an entire guild off of one random person who our officers may not be in the same overflow to catch them doing something wrong. We do accept screen shots and have banned people from our guild as a result of seeing a screen shot or video evidence sent to us.

3) I have never seen anyone in our guild threaten to mass report. That is laughable because it only hurts the people mass reporting. From 2) it’s possible that that happened but, again, I’ve never been given screen shots of it on any of the times I asked the accuser for evidence of that.

4) No one is above our guild rules. If you break the rules, you get punished. It doesn’t matter how good you are. We use our judgement when determining how to approach the situation. It is not necessary to send an announcement to all 500 people in a guild with screenshots when someone gets a warning or kicked. If you don’t trust the people in charge, then you should leave the guild.

5) Most of us do like to karma train. If the game mode was changed to give a win incentive and not be 85% up-levels who just want to get level 80, then who knows-maybe we would have a different mindset. However, not everyone who plays a game mode is going to want to play the same way. If any of our guild members say inappropriate things to someone in the map because they want to play a different way, you can send screen shots to an officer. If you are not in our guild, find someone else in our guild who is not the offender and send them a pm asking for an officer’s name.

warduke.1780:

And I say “your” guild because you claim not to be in the guild anymore, yet you’re defending them on here…

I am defending those that are still my friends. And I take offence at someone blaming the entire 500 member guild for the actions of a few. That is why I am defending them. If you could put up a valid point that the ENTIRE guild is in fact mass reporting people then the guild wouldn’t exist, they’d have all been banned for abusing the reporting system. Something that big wouldn’t slide through the cracks at Anet.

I am defending them because creating character names and impersonating people while logged onto said character names to get screenshots because you can’t get other evidence is drastic.

EotM has a lot of nice players in it, especially most of the commanders that left or were kicked, though I have seen many (lower recruit) members rage about defenders/guilds.

EotM.2513, aka the former leader/founder, is a cool guy which is why I’m really not sure why he’s backing Elaina. Hardly any ex-EotM (I’m talking people that left aaaages ago) and current EotM respect Elaina. It has been a long time since then, before he tried to improve the guild image, but I’m pretty sure Elaina was one of the people raging about the defenders and guilds back in the day.

You know there’s something up with the leadership when GMissions are being done in an inefficient and bossy manner that no one is allowed to give improvement feedback on, and he would rather kick everyone’s favorite commanders and cause more to leave with them.

As to the report threats: that was probably a troll or a few members, you can’t assume an entire guild is doing the same things. Besides spam reports don’t even do anything unless you’re spamming inappropriate name reports (/facepalm).

if you take eotm serious , im not goign to take you as a serious one

I go to EOTM to either wind down/chill out, or to level my lowbies. I love WvW, and don’t want to level in PvE! So I do like that guilds like [EotM] exist to backcap/ktrain the map. That being said, I’d never want there to be NO fights, it’s most fun when it’s a mixture of backcaps AND fights. The one thing I hate in there is when a side takes defending wayyyy overly seriously. Just doesn’t make sense to me when there’s zero point to it (besides getting a supply drop in home BL) and everything resets so quickly.

Toxicity.5392:

EotM has a lot of nice players in it, especially most of the commanders that left or were kicked, though I have seen many (lower recruit) members rage about defenders/guilds.

EotM.2513, aka the former leader/founder, is a cool guy which is why I’m really not sure why he’s backing Elaina. Hardly any ex-EotM (I’m talking people that left aaaages ago) and current EotM respect Elaina. It has been a long time since then, before he tried to improve the guild image, but I’m pretty sure Elaina was one of the people raging about the defenders and guilds back in the day.

You know there’s something up with the leadership when GMissions are being done in an inefficient and bossy manner that no one is allowed to give improvement feedback on, and he would rather kick everyone’s favorite commanders and cause more to leave with them.

As to the report threats: that was probably a troll or a few members, you can’t assume an entire guild is doing the same things. Besides spam reports don’t even do anything unless you’re spamming inappropriate name reports (/facepalm).

Was in the guild about a year ago and as far as I know Radian.2478: Terrible Player was the founder of the guild and left leader status as a result of the guild’s toxicity and personal issues.

Summer.6173:

Toxicity.5392:

EotM has a lot of nice players in it, especially most of the commanders that left or were kicked, though I have seen many (lower recruit) members rage about defenders/guilds.

EotM.2513, aka the former leader/founder, is a cool guy which is why I’m really not sure why he’s backing Elaina. Hardly any ex-EotM (I’m talking people that left aaaages ago) and current EotM respect Elaina. It has been a long time since then, before he tried to improve the guild image, but I’m pretty sure Elaina was one of the people raging about the defenders and guilds back in the day.

You know there’s something up with the leadership when GMissions are being done in an inefficient and bossy manner that no one is allowed to give improvement feedback on, and he would rather kick everyone’s favorite commanders and cause more to leave with them.

As to the report threats: that was probably a troll or a few members, you can’t assume an entire guild is doing the same things. Besides spam reports don’t even do anything unless you’re spamming inappropriate name reports (/facepalm).

Was in the guild about a year ago and as far as I know Radian.2478: Terrible Player was the founder of the guild and left leader status as a result of the guild’s toxicity and personal issues.

He has 3 accounts. One on every t1. The “EotM” account I believe is the one has the character “guild group spy” on.

One side Always dominates (Green). Red and Blue are mere cannon fodder for the power fantasy of the commander of green.

So either they Ktrain and get at least something, or they bunker down in a defensible choke and hope to not still get overrun. Blue can do this very well in their keep, and frequently does. But sitting in one small spot, hoping for another zerg to get to kitteny and run inti your prepared siege is not what most people find fun.
And i dont think it counts as “competitive fights” when literally the entire rest of the map is one colour while you keep bunkering.

If sides weren’t so completely unbalanced you’d have a better chance of seeing some fights.

EotM.2513:

Some things to consider before jumping to conclusions…

1) We get impersonated a ton. People have pretended to be us on both reddit and these forums. There has also been fake guilds using an accent in the guild name to impersonate us. If you believe everything you read and fall for it, that is your fault for being oblivious-not the people trolling us.

2) We get up to 100 recruits per week and have up to 50 people in edge of the mists at a time. They could be any color and between the 5 or so overflows that are open at a time, which is 15 different map chats. It is impossible to admin everyone under these conditions so we can only do so to the best of our ability. You cannot judge an entire guild off of one random person who our officers may not be in the same overflow to catch them doing something wrong. We do accept screen shots and have banned people from our guild as a result of seeing a screen shot or video evidence sent to us.

3) I have never seen anyone in our guild threaten to mass report. That is laughable because it only hurts the people mass reporting. From 2) it’s possible that that happened but, again, I’ve never been given screen shots of it on any of the times I asked the accuser for evidence of that.

4) No one is above our guild rules. If you break the rules, you get punished. It doesn’t matter how good you are. We use our judgement when determining how to approach the situation. It is not necessary to send an announcement to all 500 people in a guild with screenshots when someone gets a warning or kicked. If you don’t trust the people in charge, then you should leave the guild.

5) Most of us do like to karma train. If the game mode was changed to give a win incentive and not be 85% up-levels who just want to get level 80, then who knows-maybe we would have a different mindset. However, not everyone who plays a game mode is going to want to play the same way. If any of our guild members say inappropriate things to someone in the map because they want to play a different way, you can send screen shots to an officer. If you are not in our guild, find someone else in our guild who is not the offender and send them a pm asking for an officer’s name.

You know they’re desperate when they wheel out the propaganda account…

Triangulator.2867:

Everyone is entitled to play as they wish. Especially in EoTM. There’s a famous saying about pvp in pvp game modes that I think is appropriate in this and any situation involving players hating on or loving EoTM. “What will the wolf hunt if the sheep have no pastures?”.

Were I you, OP, I’d find more pvp oriented ways of disrupting their gameplay rather than wasting precious time and silver on base level siege trolling.

Here’s a video of how well [EoTM] can handle ‘defenders’.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P53Bpufw-RM

Hahahaha. GET REKT! Nice action, proud of you giving PvE scrubs a rough push-through thinking they can karmatrain in a PvP map.

Today 4 or 5 brave souls made Elaina ragequit off of OG with a paltry amount of supply and insufficient time to build up, Gotta love that treb supply drain.

Still trying to figure out why I couldn’t claim keep… must have been a troll.

And of course, they had someone building ballistas on top the supply depot so we couldn’t get a north arrow cart on our own keep.

They do that… and then threaten to get me banned for throwing trebs on gates. Lol.