Guild Wars 2

At first I hated the Desert Borderlands. Being that I don’t like the lag of EBG and always spent my time on Alpine at first I couldn’t wait for it back.

Since the latest patch with navigation changes and a newly revived population, I actually find myself really enjoying the new bl.

In fact now when I think about my fights and experiences over the years on Alpine compared to what types of options this new map offers, I’m pretty sure I like the DBL better.

Personally I still think they have a few issues, but I make this topic because I am curious how many others there are like me, whos opinions have changed.

I like DBL…but then again i’m a filthy casual ;p

Never hated it. The changes are nice though.

Its a lot better now, but it still has an annoying layout. I still hate trying to attack keeps because atm there is just to much advantage for defenders. However when I am defending I find it a lot easier then on alpine. Keep layout designs regarding defending/attacking, as well as the other additions still need to be adjusted imo.

Didn’t dislike it before and its shinning even more with higher numbers.

I think the key is that the increased population makes it much more enjoyable but when that dips down again I don’t think it’s going to be any different than before.

as a former commander of an under populated server constantly fighting blobs, i nvr liked the alpine map. not that i was happy with the desert bl, but this update seems to have cleaned up a lot of those problems.

how ever i do not think it is possible to return to the old play styles with the current meta and pairings. i predict there will be a lot of bay and hill zerg rushes due to the weakness of the cata walls which will only reinforce the need for defending zergs to camp inside.

the inability to place ACs on the stairs means point blank catas on hills will be virtually unstoppable. we used to get a lot of back and forth from the south west tower to bay but the inclusion of shield gens means trebs as a means of assault and defense are out of the picture, which means small teams fighting is dead also.

cluster building catas and capping under 5m will be the norm. even if you have scouts, the zerg commander will probably just say theres no time to save it. so while scouting and defending on the desert map can affect the outcome, those roles will become obsolete if we return to the same old alpine map.

Yes.
The changes didn’t address the big issues with the map itself: map is way too big, still too many choke points, keeps are badly designed (though they look nice), etc.
Personally, I can’t wait for the Alpine BL to be back.

Dbl os vastly better than it was…

Fire to Air keep now takes less than 2 min. I used to just say kitten it..let it burn i have a better way to spend the next 15 min of my wvw time than maneuvering through bs just to watch a group capping it.

Ty for removing alot of the mazes and zig zag bs. Still more to do but its a great start.

Ty for removing barricades. Those were just annoying.

Towers are still meaningless beyond ppt. They hold,no strategic value. They dont threaten nearby objectives.

I also think alot of Alpine lovers will hate alpine when it comes back.

I have moved from hate to strongly dislike. The maps are still too big, have too many chokes, and the entire center of the map is now a complete waste of space with the whole laser thingy event gone.

Yes, i want ABL back. Maybe they can fix some other problems of the DBL and rotate both.

I still don’t like the DBL (they are beautiful and all but…). The one major and positive change that came from the patch is the server merge that made the DBL not deserted anymore. The ABL were not perfect but are incredibly less annoying to navigate.

I liked it well enough pre-patch, but now I think it’s actually quite good.

DBL is better after the patch. It is still an awful map that belongs in the dust bin of history – but it is better.

Alpine map will look,like 8bit video game comparatively.

This is kind of what I expected, I always like DBL more than ABL, and I felt most who didn’t like DBL had complaints more about the various QoL issues and gimmicks. Those issues overshadowing the map itself. The huge variance is terrain creates potential for far more interesting fights, whether small scale or large scale.

On the size, yea it still feels large, and there are corners that we never visit, for anything, there’s no real purpose to a lot of the space, but meh.

It’s more fun when there’s zergs playing in there, reset night was a blast, unfortunately the preference is still to go to ebg, the same as it was with alpine. The map needs some polish still, but the towers will remain useless and just something to take because they’re along the way, something needs to be given to them to add value to hold.

What if each tower had a siege weapon that you could upgrade to, that only did damage to structures, and did less damage per shot than a treb, that can reach the keeps (But only the outer walls/gates)?
Just a thought lol, the fact that it’d be locked behind full upgrades would prevent it from being abused, and it would drive people to capture/keep the towers.

I liked it before and like it better now, though something needs to come along to replace the value that was added by barricades. The south towers just aren’t worth the trouble right now.

X T D.6458:

Its a lot better now, but it still has an annoying layout. I still hate trying to attack keeps because atm there is just to much advantage for defenders. However when I am defending I find it a lot easier then on alpine. Keep layout designs regarding defending/attacking, as well as the other additions still need to be adjusted imo.

Can you elaborate a bit on how defenders have too much advantage on DBL but you find defending easier on ABL? I don’t know how to reconcile those two statements.

Ven Zehn.6573:

What if each tower had a siege weapon that you could upgrade to, that only did damage to structures, and did less damage per shot than a treb, that can reach the keeps (But only the outer walls/gates)?
Just a thought lol, the fact that it’d be locked behind full upgrades would prevent it from being abused, and it would drive people to capture/keep the towers.

You mean like the super cannon you get at Statuary in eotm? That could be interesting, but would probably only get played in the southern towers from offensive teams if you have to wait on upgrades. There’s no point for offensive teams to get the north towers for this since it’ll be way less troubling to just do a regular break in with siege.

Defense teams of course could get some more value in the north towers this way, if they’re outnumbered and having trouble getting close with siege. Most servers don’t care to do long defense hold on enemy structures other than maybe T1.

Sviel.7493:

I liked it before and like it better now, though something needs to come along to replace the value that was added by barricades. The south towers just aren’t worth the trouble right now.

X T D.6458:

Its a lot better now, but it still has an annoying layout. I still hate trying to attack keeps because atm there is just to much advantage for defenders. However when I am defending I find it a lot easier then on alpine. Keep layout designs regarding defending/attacking, as well as the other additions still need to be adjusted imo.

Can you elaborate a bit on how defenders have too much advantage on DBL but you find defending easier on ABL? I don’t know how to reconcile those two statements.

Think you read it wrong, I find it easier to defend now, as opposed to on alpine. Because of all the defensive buffs that were added with hot, guild upgrades, auras, siege buffs, tactivators, hardended gates, lord scaling, etc etc. The keep layout on the dbl makes it frustrating to attack combined with all the defensive buffs, not enough open space, to much cramped space. What I prefer is a more balanced approach when it comes to attacking and defending, neither should have to much advantage over the other.

Coltain.1395:

Yes.
The changes didn’t address the big issues with the map itself: map is way too big, still too many choke points, keeps are badly designed (though they look nice), etc.
Personally, I can’t wait for the Alpine BL to be back.

^This.
The map is still poorly designed for WvW. Towers are still stand alone pointless structures. I’m sure it would be great for PvE players or as an eotm map but it doesn’t belong in WvW.

Yes, I will miss them if they leave for good. Alpine Borderland is kind of bland in my opinion. Ideally, we could have three different bl maps for each team.
Jungles are already covered by our desert, so I would expect something more unique, like a giant cavern

Possibly the biggest essential problem with the dbl is the lack of strategic value with the placement of the structures. That alone can be the biggest factor in driving player activity. This is what alpine bl and EB are great for. Its not that those maps are exciting on their own, its that the layout drives player activity because pretty much everything has value to defend and attack.

I always liked how it looked and now its already a lot better gameplay wise.

There are still a few things i would like to see.

No more stealth in the main keep. Make it a healing mist or something that gives vigor. Y’know keep some flavour but kinda less ridiculous.

Give cannons room to exist. Basicly Reposition the canons so that the one using them isn’t a lamb ready for slaughter.

Shrink down the whole map. I have no idea if this is even possible but people just don’t like running arround forever which is even worse because of the verticality.

I agree with some of the points that have been already made…still too much verticality and too many choke points, which makes it hard to join up with an attack or defense in progress on the other side of the map. Also, as stated, the objectives hold no value, as unlike towers and keeps in EBG, you can’t set up siege in them to reach out and hit anything else of importance. I like the visual aspects of the DBL maps, but the practical design leaves much to be desired.

Yes. It’s still horrible

its a good map for pve they should use it for next expansion.

X T D.6458:

Think you read it wrong, I find it easier to defend now, as opposed to on alpine. Because of all the defensive buffs that were added with hot, guild upgrades, auras, siege buffs, tactivators, hardended gates, lord scaling, etc etc. The keep layout on the dbl makes it frustrating to attack combined with all the defensive buffs, not enough open space, to much cramped space. What I prefer is a more balanced approach when it comes to attacking and defending, neither should have to much advantage over the other.

Yeah, I read it wrong. There was a ‘then’ that should have been a ‘than’ but I didn’t notice even though context pointed to it—my bad. It all makes sense now~

The new entryways into the lord’s room of all three keeps helped with the crampedness, I thought. Each lord room is much bigger than the alpine variants, too.

Bay had a tight corridor and then a moderately sized circle for lord whereas firekeep now has three bridges, a huge lord room and a nice, flat rectangle where enemies can gather outside of aggro range of the lord.

Garrison lord room could only be entered through choke points though it was the largest of the three. You could come in the watergate choke, the north gate/wall which had a small staging area and then a choke or the west gate which led to a bridge choke. Earthkeep now has six stairs that lead to lord’s room, all of which constitute chokes, and a much bigger lord’s room to boot.

Hills lord room could only be entered by a shielded bridge—if the defenders built a few ACs inside, they could defend it indefinitely. If you came in the west inner or south inner wall, there was actually another bridge before that bridge too. The lord’s room itself was tiny. Meanwhile, Airkeep now has 4 ways to enter the lord’s room and a handful of flat fighting areas that are bigger than the whole Hills lord’s room plus the actual lord’s circle itself.

So, I don’t really understand the cramped feeling as compared to Alpine. They all seem sort of cramped to me but DBL less so.

The bridges into fire keep lords room helps a lot yes, but thats not exactly all there is, you have to break through outer, then inner. Dbl keeps are to encouraging for ppl to bunker up and not have to push out because of the layout, whereas on alpine the opened up space and strategic value of other structures like towers made it more important for people to actually move and do stuff instead of just standing around.

yesv

I don’t hate it but to take keeps and Garri feels very samey every time. They have strict paths that the attackers have to abide by and as a result feels less dynamic than taking keeps and Garri in ABL

Happier since the WPs were reverted and that awful oasis event removed.

The changes and actually having fights there completely salvaged BLs for me. I’m fine with them now when I couldn’t stand them before. Could still use some polish but doesn’t make me go into blind rage trying to get to a fight anymore.

dank.3680:

At first I hated the Desert Borderlands. Being that I don’t like the lag of EBG and always spent my time on Alpine at first I couldn’t wait for it back.

Since the latest patch with navigation changes and a newly revived population, I actually find myself really enjoying the new bl.

In fact now when I think about my fights and experiences over the years on Alpine compared to what types of options this new map offers, I’m pretty sure I like the DBL better.

Personally I still think they have a few issues, but I make this topic because I am curious how many others there are like me, whos opinions have changed.

Unlike you, at first I kinda liked the desert BL, because it was new, but as the novelty wore off and I learned the map I have grown to quite literally hate it.

Too many verticals getting in the way of joining the action. At the beginning I tried to get to them most of the time I got to the spot when the fight was over or the group no longer there. As I have learned the map and came to realize ahead of time I will never get to where I want to be in time, it became plain and apparent that I am better off sitting on crafting station, or doing something, somewhere near a waypoint that the group will eventually take and I can join.

As time went by this turned into “i’m better off just going to do PVE while waiting on EBG que” or many times I just logged off.

While the situation is improved, the core issues remain. Map too large, far too many verticals, jumping pads and jumping puzzle elements still there. Yea, now I know how to get around them but that does me very little as I also know that by time I get there I need to be someplace else. So back to waypoint it is.

Pretty much what Tongku wrote. It takes way too long to get back in the mix. It’s too large of a map and verticality/gimmicky terrain bring nothing to the table.

Yes, I still dislike DBL. You can check my post history for the numerous issues that map still has. I believe DBL is beyond repair. It would need complete redesign of the towers and keeps to make them smaller and change also their location, reduce the gimmicks, choke points. Just too much work to make that map work.

I used to be Alpine borderland player. Almost always defending home borderland. I was never a big fan of EBG as the entire map has lag issues when there is a huge fight in SMC and there is a bit too much zerging. But recently EBG has offered more fun as roaming than DBL. So even EBG is much better than DBL. But the original Alpine border would be highly preferred.

To largely repeat what I posted here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/wuv/Alpine-Borderlands-needs-to-be-prio-1/ ……

IMO and that of many others (although clearly not all!) the design issues with the new BLs are now largely fixed. There is always room for improvement – it is a real shame the northern towers don’t have the strategic role they have in the ABls and the central area seems a great waste of space now the event has been removed (although It could be said that is also true of the ABls) – but after the changes they mostly they work well.

What’s more, regardless of their flaws, the new borders never really had a chance. They were flawed, for sure, but they launched when the game generally was in a bad state and had a low population unable to support 4 maps. Part of their bad rep, was simply because they game was boring and the maps were empty!

We’ve had some amazing old-school fights in the borders in the last week. Really the best open field fights I remember, ever, because of the more varied terrain. The changed maps, a better meta and a restored population has transformed them.

They are different, definitely; keeps and even towers are bigger and more difficult to scout for example but, in rotation with the ABls (as should have been the case from the start) they add welcome variety.

X T D.6458:

Its a lot better now, but it still has an annoying layout. I still hate trying to attack keeps because atm there is just to much advantage for defenders. However when I am defending I find it a lot easier then on alpine. Keep layout designs regarding defending/attacking, as well as the other additions still need to be adjusted imo.

Try to attack certain spots on walls with a few eles with meteor showers and you wont say that defenders have the advantage anymore.

OT; I like it much much better now since they changed the wp system – removed those bullcrap barricades ( those shouldnt have been there at first place but well ) – opened up some space for easier travel etc. Now they need to give towers a bit more strategic value.

Still dislike it but dislike it less, the keeps are so confusing and to get to keeps or simple get out off midle is still to hard, they need to remove most off the walls that block you and make it like hills you can run up/down from.

I totally hated then before. Now they’re…uh, okay. Playable. I can have fun. But I still like ABL way more.

Kanebrake.6192:

I think the key is that the increased population makes it much more enjoyable but when that dips down again I don’t think it’s going to be any different than before.

I have the same opinion. It’s good when there’s people. Yesterday played there at 11pm and we didn’t really find any good fights.

they still need some improvements but i like the open field fight there. it feels good.

so no hates

lmperdigao.2567:

I totally hated then before. Now they’re…uh, okay. Playable. I can have fun. But I still like ABL way more.

Yeah I also really prefer ABL all the way, even though DBL are playable now.

I like DBL much better now. Much more fun to play on. I’m frankly amazed that they took the time to change the map at all, let alone to the extent that they did. There are a ton of little tweeks and changes that makes all the world of difference. For example, adding all the extra steps all around fire keep.

Better than ABL? dunno. just different. I think that ABL is much more drab and boring in comparison, but the keep lord rooms, while plainer, are more about fighting players rather than PvE mechanics, which is anathema to WvW. I do miss the bloodlust mechanic, however; that added a greater strategic dimension to the match and maps. DBLs need something like this in the middle (not oasis event).

There is a fundamental flaw in the EBG + 3xBl border model that does not adapt well to drops in population. The Alpine borders would have had similar, if not identical, problems over the last few months when wider issues with WvW had caused people to leave the game and others were focused on PvE for specialisations and Guild Halls.

Maybe it would be easier to manage fluctuating numbers if we had several different symmetric maps, like EB, that could be added and removed as numbers changed, but then we would lose the idea of a ‘home’ map that a lot of us are attached to. It’s also a lot of work!

Yes
The map is simply not made for WvW, it’s a PvE map and they should just move it to PvE
It’s too big, it’s anti-roaming, it’s anti-fight, it’s anti-towertactics, I can go on, but there’s no point because those issues are known

Yes, get rid of them once and for all.

I like the DBL for only the simple fact it has people active on them because EB has a 50+ man que most of the time. If EB didn’t have a que, it’d be a barren waste land again and nobody would be there. Let’s be honest.

DBL is more suited to be a second EOTM map, not a WvW BL map!