Guild Wars 2

Mikitten058:

Akuma.7098:

@Eisenhart: I think you probably dont know the situation I talk about. Yeah if your numbers are equall or there is not that big difference what you wrote is write. But if you are against some1 that has 2x or more numbers then you, they can easilly afford to play with you while others revive the fallen.

And that group would mow through the smaller one, reviving or not.

Time and time again it’s been shown in many MMO’s that superior organization can overcome numbers. While it’s still possible in GW2, the downed state makes this much more difficult in WvW. Is that really the direction we want to be taking semi-competitive play?

Anyway, that’s how I interpreted what he was saying.

Mikitten058:

Akuma.7098:

@Eisenhart: I think you probably dont know the situation I talk about. Yeah if your numbers are equall or there is not that big difference what you wrote is write. But if you are against some1 that has 2x or more numbers then you, they can easilly afford to play with you while others revive the fallen.

And that group would mow through the smaller one, reviving or not.

It depends really. I really don’t know how it works with other servers, but in our case, the smaller group usually uses AoE to fend off the larger group.

If they can break through then it turns into a brawl, if not, then the group that can use AoE more effectively gets to break the other (I noticed this doesn’t really go with size, and that the larger group, which tends to clump up more, takes more damage from the smaller group).

It’s also sometimes weird, as the larger zerg sometimes breaks up when it takes large losses. Some run, some stay, and those who do die.

Though sometimes ET zergs are so numerous (say, 3x size of our group) that it is best to retreat and just fight from a better position (tower or walls).

I am going to tell you a story.

The other day I was playing WvW with a friend of mine (lvl 80s) when we ran across perhaps 8-10 enemies. We managed to take down about 5-6 of them however we were unable to finish them off because the other enemies kept reviving them. Eventually we were both killed.

The point of this story is that if there was no downed state I believe 100% we would of been able to finish this group off due to our superior skill level. This is just one of the examples that show how the downed state promotes the theme “numbers win battles not skill” which is 100% true at the moment in GW2 pvp due the downed state.

Remove it already.

Downed state is one of those ideas that enthusiastic creative employees bring up in brainstorming session when the game is in alpha stage. Breath of freshness. Not many games has this one. We could be different.

At some point of critical analysis this idea is usually dropped. There comes a realization that the idea is not used in other games because it’s not a very good idea. Is this what people find enjoyable past the initial novelty? For attacker: do you feel rewarded when your target gets a second healthbar after you’ve depleted it once? Does stopping attack for lengthy finisher move with high chance of failure bring satisfaction? For defender: do you think becoming immobile mud-flinger is more satisfying than dying fair and square?

This is sketchboard stuff, not something that should make it into final game.

I’ll support any anti-downed state thread I come across.

1. Because rezzing somebody in 2-3 seconds I just took 20 seconds to kill is pretty stupid.

2. Not everybody has constant interrupt abilities to stop people from rezzing.

3. It makes it impossible for smaller groups to achieve anything against larger Zergs in WvW, even if they kill 2-3 times their own numbers. People just rezz and keep going.

4. It makes it very hard to break a Siege. All it takes is a few seconds and someone is back up on their feet, continuing to smash your gate. Really, what’s the best a defender can hope to achieve is such situations?

5. It kills skill. It makes 2v1s much harder than they are in any other MMO, let alone 3v1s. This undermines a lot of satsifaction you get from PvP. If winning 1v1 is the best you can reasonably hope for then PvP is going to start feeling awfully bland.

6. Downed states are really unbalanced among classes. Yes, you could try and balance them but why fix a broken system? Keep in in PvE, remove it from PvP.

7. People abuse it in tPvP to stop you from respawning. That’s right, your enemies prefer to keep you downed rather than see you resurrect. And without a suicide option there’s nothing you can do about it.

8. En contraire to what some people say, it does the exact opposite of encouraging tactics. It promotes zerging because thanks to downed state, numbers > all.
______________________________________________
What they should do is this:

1. Make it so that friendly rezzing is interrupted by direct damage, just like the self-healing is.

2. Make it impossible to rezz defeated players while “in combat”.

3. Rework downed abilities. Give each profession 1 ability to interrupt and 1 ability to commit suicide in a styleful way. That way you address the most pressing concerns without gutting the “feature”.

Downed State is PvP is like Underwater Combat. Cool only until you play it.

I like the mechanic in a general sense, although some individual professions’ downed skills could use a bit of work.

Hate it , worst idea ever , its amazing for pve , but for wvwvw and spvp its terrible….especialy when your target has 20+ stacks of bleed , gets downed and magically loses all the wounds… kitten i hate this mechanic. Makes skilled play useless zerg > all.
They seriously have to rework it , at least make it equal. Or easy solution: 5sec of being downed and you die for good , not 30 sec. its a joke now realy.
Also that would make more skilled play involved while taking towers/keeps etc. since now when you get downed its like… meh… i`ll get ressed, np.
Realy hope they going to fix it :/

I like downed state. I think it adds a new dynamic to the game and I honestly don’t see what all the complaints are about.

Since people are making the claim that it’s only for casuals, my credentials:

Played DAOC in an infamous 8 man gank group for quite a while, was second highest RR animist in the world until quit. Wiped zergs on a consistent basis.

Played WoW: Top 20 rankings of multiple teams with multiple classes in arena in s1-3 (when I played) and #1 in S3, played and beat some of the best players in the world.

In GW2: Our 5-8 man group WvWs about 4 nights a week. We routinely kill double and triple our number. It isn’t as impossible as you make it sound.

Some tips.

Use AOE to punish rezzing. Dancing dagger for example (when used by a crit/power thief) will instantly annihilate anyone trying to rez. It’s a death sentence. Also, use daze/knockback/pushpull to interrupt rezzing.

Use Quickness to execute.

We have a dedicated rezzer and finisher in our group, an engineer who has maxed power/toughness/vitality and is nearly unkillable. He has stability/quickness elixir for rezzing or downing. That’s mostly his job. Also, the thief with shadow refuge makes executing/rezzing a less risky ordeal. We also have Time Warp for rezzing and downing, if necessary.

Couple of notes:

The game isn’t balanced around 1v1 or 1v2, it’s a group game, which is why the downed state exists: it’s for team oriented play. Make friends. The downed state protects against players thinking they’re skilled just because they went all out damage spec and mashed 3 buttons + quickness to instagib someone. That’s not skill, anyone can do that. You read guides to do that. If you want to 1v2, you need to be a little more creative, instead of just hitting your damage rotation and expecting to win.

I like the downed state. I agree that some professions have better downed states than others, but I feel this will get smoothed out over time. Perhaps the speed at which someone can be rezzed by a single player may be adjusted downward a small, small %. But that’s it.

Good players will find out how to “beat” the downed state, instead of constantly complaining about it. It’s an interesting mechanic, one that adds a unique aspect.

“Metalripper.5406
aaron, what you said is factually incorrect, the downed state helps the unskilled zerg overwhelm a smaller, more organized group, and that is the issue people have problems with.”

You did not comprehend what I wrote.

“aaron.4317People that like the downed state: People that fight groups which tend to be smaller than their own and want a crutch so they can still win no matter how well the smaller group plays against them.”

People that fight groups which tend to be smaller than their own are zergs.

The only people that like the downed state are the zerglings. Everyone else hates it.

I use the phrasing “people that tend to fight groups smaller than their own”, because many people don’t see a 3 man that only engages when they see a soloer a “zerg” because they are only 3.

People that run duo and won’t fight another duo straight up, but will fight solers, LOVE the downed state. People that run a 5 man and will only attack groups of 2s and 3s, LOVE the downed state. You don’t need to be in the stereotypical 40 man zerg is my point. People that just tend to fight smaller groups than their own, love the downed state.

It gives the battle one more layer with is good, Arenanet should add a CD off say 30sec if you kill the client were the character is in game and ofc a shame count for using alt-f4 were you can se a list server, world vs world fight hole EU were top 3 you can dress as chickens that cluck, cluck when someone press them, sound like chicken.wav at http://soundjax.com/chicken-2.html were that player cant remove that sound anyway it will allways play for him.

The downed state is necessary for the way GW2 is now. It directly counters heavy damage spike builds like the thief backstab build that three-shots most players or the warrior hundred blade rush, etc. It gives players who mess up a second chance to avoid tactics like that and for that reason I like it.

The real problem is not the downed system, but the fact that players can res defeated players easily. Full on defeat should be a harsher penalty and it should be the way little groups can slowly wear down a zerg of players. I’d be in favor of removing the ability to resurrect defeated players in WvW, but that seems a little harsh so instead I think ressing a defeated player should be “all or nothing”. Currently a group of people can slowly resurrect someone in small increments because their health while defeated does not decrease. I say if a player’s attempt to resurrect a defeated player is interrupted the defeated player’s health should drop back down to 0. This makes it much harder to resurrect defeated players during combat and actually makes it more important to resurrect players in the downed state.

I like it for myself I hate it for my enemies pretty much sums up most of this post. It works in this game as we have no dedicated healers as someone mention prior in this thread. Not to mention it gives you that chance of survival and triumph, so many times it was a close call but my friends would come in just in time and visa versa. Same can be said for my enemies, I prefer it and glad it’s in the game.

Downed state doesnt counter spike builds, it counters smaller forces that out play you.

Minion of Vey.4398:

Considering how fast some of these burst builds out there can drop people, the game kinda needs downed.

I was iffy on downed state at first but it has grown on me.

Obviously, if they removed downed, they would rebalance TTL (time-to-live) to account for no downed.

The addition of downed state is why burst builds that kill in <2sec are allowed to exist.

aaron.4317:

Downed state doesnt counter spike builds, it counters smaller forces that out play you.

This is exactly why it is so ridiculous to have downed state in WVW — it grossly favours the larger, not more skilled, group, and trivialises keep attacks/defenses so that an attacking force can just keep rezzing and hitting your door.

It should be removed in PVP or rezzing should break on direct damage. Defeated players should be unrezzable 20 seconds after being ‘defeated’.

Maybe its the Monty Python part in the Holy Grail
“I’m not dead yet”
Or the other part
“Its just a flesh wound”

mjharrison.3209:

Minion of Vey.4398:

Considering how fast some of these burst builds out there can drop people, the game kinda needs downed.

I was iffy on downed state at first but it has grown on me.

Obviously, if they removed downed, they would rebalance TTL (time-to-live) to account for no downed.

The addition of downed state is why burst builds that kill in <2sec are allowed to exist.

Not only that but the downed status is a direct replacement for the Holy Trinity, specifically healers.

Like it. It makes many new possible gameplay situations.

Dont be jelly about not being able to finish someone.

Kirrund.2654:

I like downed state. I think it adds a new dynamic to the game and I honestly don’t see what all the complaints are about.

Since people are making the claim that it’s only for casuals, my credentials:

Played DAOC in an infamous 8 man gank group for quite a while, was second highest RR animist in the world until quit. Wiped zergs on a consistent basis.

Played WoW: Top 20 rankings of multiple teams with multiple classes in arena in s1-3 (when I played) and #1 in S3, played and beat some of the best players in the world.

In GW2: Our 5-8 man group WvWs about 4 nights a week. We routinely kill double and triple our number. It isn’t as impossible as you make it sound.

Some tips.

Use AOE to punish rezzing. Dancing dagger for example (when used by a crit/power thief) will instantly annihilate anyone trying to rez. It’s a death sentence. Also, use daze/knockback/pushpull to interrupt rezzing.

Use Quickness to execute.

We have a dedicated rezzer and finisher in our group, an engineer who has maxed power/toughness/vitality and is nearly unkillable. He has stability/quickness elixir for rezzing or downing. That’s mostly his job. Also, the thief with shadow refuge makes executing/rezzing a less risky ordeal. We also have Time Warp for rezzing and downing, if necessary.

Couple of notes:

The game isn’t balanced around 1v1 or 1v2, it’s a group game, which is why the downed state exists: it’s for team oriented play. Make friends. The downed state protects against players thinking they’re skilled just because they went all out damage spec and mashed 3 buttons + quickness to instagib someone. That’s not skill, anyone can do that. You read guides to do that. If you want to 1v2, you need to be a little more creative, instead of just hitting your damage rotation and expecting to win.

I like the downed state. I agree that some professions have better downed states than others, but I feel this will get smoothed out over time. Perhaps the speed at which someone can be rezzed by a single player may be adjusted downward a small, small %. But that’s it.

Good players will find out how to “beat” the downed state, instead of constantly complaining about it. It’s an interesting mechanic, one that adds a unique aspect.

This is exactly why it will not be changed. The downed state is a skill based mechanic and every class has options they can use to safely spike someone , pull them, punt them, or make the area a deathtrap.

For example a Ranger using Rampage as One would be uninterruptible for a spike. I’ve even seen an engineer use Elixer S to spike. Stop trying to dumb the game down because you don’t understand how to counter things that have definitive counters.

Also facing zergs all the usual themes apply including extending people, mass CC, breaking morale, etc. But at a certain point you have to expect to have a very difficult time winning. An earlier example like 2 vs 8-10 is something you SHOULD NOT win unless all the enemies are brain-dead. If you do then the game has balance issues that require nerfs to your stuff :P.

AnthonyZdravko.2051:

Nobody in WvW likes it

How typical of the to forum QQ squad to think they speak for everyone.

Coming from my point of view of someone who is part of a well organised guild who wvw regularly (when there is anything worth fighting) i will say this.

WvW seems too casual for my liking. I agree with many of the points made in this thread downed state makes it so much more of challenge to overcome much larger forces than your own. We tend to run melee heavy groups out flank or find a weak spot push in aoe pull and dump of crap loads of aoe on the zerg. We kill many many people. Why should our already small force be kittened for a period of time whilist members crucial to our success must wait around to stake and watch for players behind us being rezzed. We simply can not afford to have members doing this. Are they trying to encourage nothing but zerg v zerg battles? Seems unfair in favour of the larger force.

Imo pvp with downed state is very much dumbed down pvp giving second chances to players where it is not needed. You make a mistake you get caught out of position you have no situational awareness well thats your own fault why should you be given another chance. You get outplayed well take a look at what happened and learn from it.

I am seeing little value given to life in pvp as many are well aware if i go down well ill just get rezzed again. Seen more evident in keep sieges where a very large force is attacking but a handful of defenders.

I understand why they implemented such a system in a game with no real group structure (tanks heals) but feel it was done poorly.
If downed is here to stay remove the invulnerability when players drop. Remove stealth and teleport abilities from downed state. Give all players the same skill set and make it more about team mates making the difference as to whether you live or die. It is a team game no? Or even better look at what you can do as an individual player to avoid not being in downed state in the first place. Remove the ability to revive once defeated. Maps are that small in this game it will take you no time to find your way back to your group.

Sorry post got longer than i had hoped. Thanks for reading.

If it doesn’t go, it needs to be balanced.
Some professions have useless crap, some have ports, illusions and stuff that hits for 5k… how hard is it to understand it’s horrible right now?

mjharrison.3209:

aaron.4317:

Downed state doesnt counter spike builds, it counters smaller forces that out play you.

This is exactly why it is so ridiculous to have downed state in WVW — it grossly favours the larger, not more skilled, group, and trivialises keep attacks/defenses so that an attacking force can just keep rezzing and hitting your door.

It should be removed in PVP or rezzing should break on direct damage. Defeated players should be unrezzable 20 seconds after being ‘defeated’.

This is by far the most important reason to have it removed/changed.

Regardless of 2v1s and other skirmish situations, the downed system is just another system (similar to Orbs) that favors the larger force instead of trying to encourage the weaker.

I love the downed state! Could be streamlined though!

I liked downed state I don’t like the current rally on something dies. Personally I’d rather have the rally on X dies work if the player was involved enough in the kill to get credit. I think that would work for both pve and pvp.

i hate it when i’m fighting 1v2/ but like it when i’m fighting 2v4 (with a competent ally)

Seems like justs about everyone wants GW2 to be almost exactly like a MMO they played and liked. Silly people…..

I feel the main problems with the down state :

1. People do too much damage from the down state. Hitting for 1-1.5 k is too much which is multiplied if you are outnumbered.
2. The skills are imbalanced, and sometimes broken. Most of the time my single knock down ability is always on cool down, where some classes get AOE knockdowns, and other cheesy mechanics. You are dead, either you get rezed or you don’t, that’s all you should be able to do.
3. Its 5 seconds of you just standing there to finish them off without haste.
4. Most importantly to me, it really hurts the chance for small guilds to zerg bust. Yes I know everyone wants to be on “equal “ footing now days, and no one should have to work for any gear or advantage, but that is beside the point. Killing 2 times your numbers requires you to down all these people you just killed or they are going to kill you, then you might start have to worry about killing the other alive players ….

Terrible design decision, ruins so many fights in WvW.

You kill a guy in a group, he goes down (his heal is still recharging while he’s downed), he’s revived faster than an arrowcart, ballista or any of my skills can kill him, he gets back up with 50% health for free, and can then instantly pop his heal. FTW…

Raffie.7865:

Seems like justs about everyone wants GW2 to be almost exactly like a MMO they played and liked. Silly people…..

There’s a reason why no MMO in history has implemented a downed state mechanic — it’s because it doesn’t add anything to the gameplay.

I’ll give credit to Anet for trying something new, and while it’s fine for PVE, downed state is utterly, stupidly, game-breakingly out of place in PVP.

I mean, people are already calling it Downed Wars…

@mjharrison

1st time Ive seen someone call GW2 this. So apparently it’s a Very small group of “people”.

Downed state is THE worst mechanic ever put into any PvP game, ever, in history, ever..

Only complete clueless noob’s would think otherwise.

Mikitten058:

@mjharrison
1st time Ive seen someone call GW2 this. So apparently it’s a Very small group of “people”.

The people I play with call it “Downed Wars” when they really mean “let’s do some GW2 PVP”. I agree it hasn’t hit the wider audience yet, but give it time.

mjharrison.3209:

Mikitten058:

@mjharrison
1st time Ive seen someone call GW2 this. So apparently it’s a Very small group of “people”.

The people I play with call it “Downed Wars” when they really mean “let’s do some GW2 PVP”. I agree it hasn’t hit the wider audience yet, but give it time.

Well then you play with a small group, as I have not heard GW2 called that until you stated, as well as I hadn’t seen it on the forums, among a lot of other sites yet, or used in game.

As for the downed state, it’s not as bad as a lot make it. The largest issue is how some classes get clones, ways to get extra time and a chance to kill someone to come back to life, or do high damage, while other classes get useless things.

The “downed state” as a whole adds a new dynamic. Scared of someone rallying off of you, kill them. Scared of someone rezzing another player, use the dead as AOE bait. You’d be suprised at how many times you can make a pile of loot by killing people who try to rezz. In addition to that the self heal requires someone to not be hit while casting it. Also the more you rezz/rally in a small period of time, the less life force you have each time.

I know had I wanted GW2 to be like all other games I’ve played before then I wouldn’t have came to GW2. I like the differences.

Yes, love downed state. Don’t know why people complain about it. If you want to die and have no chance for reviving then go back to wow. Stop contaminating every game on earth with your wow cancer.

TY, that is all.

guttermessiah.6350:

Yes, love downed state. Don’t know why people complain about it. If you want to die and have no chance for reviving then go back to wow. Stop contaminating every game on earth with your wow cancer.

TY, that is all.

Umm umm… things a glass cannon say! right? I don’t mind downed state, but its place in W3 is questionable. the satisfaction of dropping someone is usually ruined when 5 of his buddies can get him up, it’s possible to drop a large number of people and prevent this but generally not unless you burst the rezer with the rezee, not to mention the classes that can get up on their own with enough time on their back.

Love downed state. Adds a fun element to combat.

Coldviper.6794:

Love downed state. Adds a fun element to combat.

same

My views:

Some professions have incredible skills to rally from Downed, and this is not just unbalanced but unfair.

The “Finish” move is a melee move, it does not fit with ranged professions (This too is not just unbalanced but unfair). Besides that the Finish move gesture is so arrogant that I try to avoid using it.

The Downed state may be useful in PvE, but it would be better to take it out of all sorts of PvP. Keep Things Simple Please.

Downed state isn’t bad, but the imbalance between the different downed-state skills is bad.
I’m a guardian, I knock someone back, OKAY, that buys me 3 more seconds of life.
I down a thief, he disappears, five seconds later I’m still looking for this guy.
I get downed as an elementalist, forget it, I’m dead in the next 2 seconds. Comparing all the downed skills side by side, the spectrum goes from overpowered to down-right-useless, and I wonder why downed state among different professions was designed like this.

edit: marianojc beat me by a minute lol

in the end its mostly about positioning than anything else what i mean is 30 “overpowered” loose to 20 who is not as good usually.

Downed state ruins any kind of hit and run strategy. Even if you kill some downed guys, in 5-6 seconds they are back again.

Downed state supports noobiness. If you run with zerg you dont ever need to look at combat log or use your brain because if you are downed, or even killed, it has no consequencies for the rest of the team, cause thay can easily revive or ress you.

It should be called zombie wars, cause it is possible to down and kill the same person 4x in prolonged fight. I mean wtf, zombie wars.

i like it even though not too fond of the skills. atleeast engineer 3rd skill is useless rarely have the time to use it.

I like the downed state. It’s a brilliant idea and adds a layer of fun to the game. Hell, one time there was an elementalist and myself slugging it out, we both wound up in the downed state. Sadly, I expired before he did, but it was pretty intense fun.

I love it, but then again I also don’t build a stupid glass cannon build with no durability. If you are having problems with downed players getting up, try using alternate methods to move them to defeated. You can either AOE around them when people are trying to rez them, or stack a ton of conditions on them from range. If they get back up and you have an AOE bomb going off on them, they’ll likely fall right back down again. If you are a Melee class, use a ranged secondary weapon to finish them off, or stack some temporary invulnerability powers to get the stomp off without getting interrupted.

I am against DEFEATED players being so easily brought back, and I wish they would continue to take damage in their defeated state to prevent just going in, rezzing a little bit, rolling out, and going back in again. It really makes battle swing hard when one side wins by just a little bit. I don’t think downed state is a problem.

You can either adjust your strategy, or cry to the devs to fix a mechanic you don’t like. Those of you against downed state have chosen the latter.

I don’t mind it really, but the implementation is so utterly stupid it’s mindboggling. The fact that it takes only a few seconds to rez a downed player allows for the talentless zerg to dominate skilled players. (Rezzing in general is too fast with multiple rezzers) And the fact that some classes have very good abilities while downed while others have no way of delaying their impending doom is just completely unbalanced in many situations.

Well it certainly looks like a lot of people like the mechanic.

You know what we need… more finishers. I still haven’t tried out the cow finisher yet, but maybe, oh I don’t know… profession specific finishers? Elementalists could call down for example a single glowing meteor, mesmers could shatter their fallen foe like a phantasm popping, warriors could perhaps place-kick them off to the horizon… shake it up a little.

VOLKON.1290:

You know what we need… more finishers. I still haven’t tried out the cow finisher yet, but maybe, oh I don’t know… profession specific finishers? Elementalists could call down for example a single glowing meteor, mesmers could shatter their fallen foe like a phantasm popping, warriors could perhaps place-kick them off to the horizon… shake it up a little.

I like that. Even some way to earn customized animations would be cool.

There are many things I would like fixed before looking at downed state, although some abilities are just too silly and could use with some balancing.