Conditions are a prime example of some of the flaws in the down state, I can down you with a buttload of conditions, They’re instantly removed when you’re downed and a single person can res you instantly and you’ll not only be able to continue the fight, have zero penalty for doing it, But you’ll also be cured of the conditions I had on you previously.
If you hit with Backstab for 50.000 damage while your opponent only has 15.000 he is not killed but only downed. The extra 35.000 damage is wasted just like with conditions.
There is a downed penalty. If you ever get downed look at the lower right corner of your health sphere. You should see a down arrow icon there.
Burst Damage is quite different from Condition Damage as you might guess, Applying Multiple Conditions and Large Stacks of bleed takes time of course, Burst Damage is completely different…
That Downed Penalty only applies by the way if you down them again. It usually takes about 2-3 Times before you can actually kill someone with it.
Downed state makes the game easier. There is nothing about removing it that would make the game any less difficult. Stop making assumptions about my abilities. It’s silly. It’s also silly that you’d hop into this thread and try to brag. Iirc, can’t pets res a ranger when it’s downed. No wonder you love it.
It’s not often I’m downed, and if you can’t finish me off while I’m solo before my number “3” down state ability is ready to use, then you do need a big can of learn to play.
Again, I’m sorry the downed state is hard for you, truly I am.
If removing the downed state wouldn’t make the game easier for you, there would be nothing to complain about, now would there?
The only time that pet is going to save ya is if you’re in a zerg and the zerg pushes forward, you’re underwater, or you’ve managed to die while inside a keep.
1v1….It won’t ever save ya, if you’re zerging 2v1..Chances are your team-mate can res ya before your pet will be available to do it.
I prefer anything that stops or disadvantages the stupid and lag causing zerg play.
Thats ruining the game.
I prefer anything that stops or disadvantages the stupid and lag causing zerg play.
Thats ruining the game.
Very little will stop it, The Maps are to small and narrow with paths, There is little reward in actually soloing or small manning vs zerging it up (the only reason I do it is test myself, but its not more rewarding then zerging), you’re disadvantaged in multiple ways while solo, and certain classes can do it better the others.
So that is why you see large zergs..There is no benefit besides your own personal glory for running anything but a zerg.
Also throw in the how the AOE Damage system is, How The Buff system is, and you’ll see it all benefits having large numbers of people..Having 5 People against a Large Group is an actual penalty when you consider AOE, while having anything past 5 people actually makes AOE Damage weaker. This is why you had people stacking not so long ago and spamming Heals (because it didn’t have a cap)
GW2 PvP is a lot of new ideas that honestly fail pretty badly in the grand scheme of things. I give Anet credit for trying something new, But if other MMO’s end up copying them they will have set back PvP in MMO’s by a fairly large degree. Just like WoW did for MMO’s after it, GW2 is going to end up making PvP worse in the long run I imagine.
(edited by Xsorus.2507)
thats exactly why i hate the aoe limitation but love heal limitation.
The preferences for heal and buffs should be focusing the own group.
Downstate and rally should be removed and culling must be fixed.
I love the downed state in PvE. I hate the downed state in WvW.
It encourages zergs and glass cannons. It promotes outnumbering your foe. This doesn’t even take into account the ridiculousness of rallying and differing downed state skills.
We had a 6v14 last night. Downed a bunch of them, but 6-7 of them rallied off of a wolf. A wolf gave those 6-7 players a second chance because they were not cautious enough the first time around while our group was punished by having to kill them again.
Downed state makes the game easier. There is nothing about removing it that would make the game any less difficult. Stop making assumptions about my abilities. It’s silly. It’s also silly that you’d hop into this thread and try to brag. Iirc, can’t pets res a ranger when it’s downed. No wonder you love it.
It’s not often I’m downed, and if you can’t finish me off while I’m solo before my number “3” down state ability is ready to use, then you do need a big can of learn to play.
Again, I’m sorry the downed state is hard for you, truly I am.
If removing the downed state wouldn’t make the game easier for you, there would be nothing to complain about, now would there?
The only time that pet is going to save ya is if you’re in a zerg and the zerg pushes forward, you’re underwater, or you’ve managed to die while inside a keep.
1v1….It won’t ever save ya, if you’re zerging 2v1..Chances are your team-mate can res ya before your pet will be available to do it.
I cant imagine any situatuon (short of luck) where regardless of your class/build you will have the cooldowns to stomp in a 1v3+ vs a semi organized group. Maybe a aoe bomb followed by quickness but that’s about it.
Solo roaming/PKing has been a large part of my gameplay since UO days and ive yet to encounter such a full stop mechanic where i had to walk away from fights due to chain rezzing.
I love the downed state in PvE. I hate the downed state in WvW.
It encourages zergs and glass cannons. It promotes outnumbering your foe. This doesn’t even take into account the ridiculousness of rallying and differing downed state skills.
We had a 6v14 last night. Downed a bunch of them, but 6-7 of them rallied off of a wolf. A wolf gave those 6-7 players a second chance because they were not cautious enough the first time around while our group was punished by having to kill them again.
That’s cause Down State was designed around PVE with little regard to how it would work in WvW
I want the downed state to stay in the game, in all modes. It is a new mechanic (AFAIK) in PvP type games, and contributes to the unique feel of GW2’s combat system.
In large-scale fights, downed state is all about pushing for position. Whenever someone goes down, there is a little mini control point spawned, and whichever side is better at capturing/defending these control points has an advantage. This gives a very dynamic feel to fights. Yes, some builds are better than others at taking these points, but that is a choice one makes when creating a build.
Removing the downed state would create more incentive to go glass cannon builds, not less. I cannot tell you the number of times in zerg vs. zerg I see some thief down someone with HS spam, then retreat back into their lines, then HS spam to down again, then retreat again, wash rinse repeat. As the system is now there is a chance to revive that person and continue to fight. If downed state is removed all zergs will become a front line of guardians and a rear line of thieves (I exaggerate).
Same thing for small fights. If it is 2v1 or 3v1 against a Thief the group of players can simply revive their friends every time he goes down while the thief is in the stomp animation. If the downed state is removed the thief will just burst 1 player then stealth for a bit to recharge, then burst the next player then stealth again to recharge, etc. You think thieves are good against small groups now? Imagine how it will be when there is no opportunity to come back at all.
Having said all that, I do think the downed system could use some changes. Adjusting the amount of downed HP or revive speed, being unable to revive stomped players, things like that.
(edited by lettucemode.3789)
I love the downed state in PvE. I hate the downed state in WvW.
It encourages zergs and glass cannons. It promotes outnumbering your foe. This doesn’t even take into account the ridiculousness of rallying and differing downed state skills.
We had a 6v14 last night. Downed a bunch of them, but 6-7 of them rallied off of a wolf. A wolf gave those 6-7 players a second chance because they were not cautious enough the first time around while our group was punished by having to kill them again.
That’s cause Down State was designed around PVE with little regard to how it would work in WvW
This is the core issue. Downed State and all the mechanics surrounding it, be it rezzing, reviving or rallying are all balanced and conceived around a PvE environment.
It was probably briefly tested in a controlled SPvP environment where it is fairly manageable. But never was it designed around WvW.
And yet that’s what many of us are calling our “endgame”.
I want the downed state to stay in the game, in all modes. It is a new mechanic (AFAIK) in PvP type games, and contributes to the unique feel of GW2’s combat system.
In large-scale fights, downed state is all about pushing for position. Whenever someone goes down, there is a little mini control point spawned, and whichever side is better at capturing/defending these control points has an advantage. This gives a very dynamic feel to fights. Yes, some builds are better than others at taking these points, but that is a choice one makes when creating a build.
Removing the downed state would create more incentive to go glass cannon builds, not less. I cannot tell you the number of times in zerg vs. zerg I see some thief down someone with HS spam, then retreat back into their lines, then HS spam to down again, then retreat again, wash rinse repeat. As the system is now there is a chance to revive that person and continue to fight. Same thing for small fights. If it is 2v1 or 3v1 against a Thief the group of players can simply revive their friends every time he goes down while the thief is in the stomp animation. You think thieves are good against small groups now? Imagine how it will be when there is no opportunity to come back at all.
Having said all that, I do think the downed system could use some changes. Things like adjusting the amount of downed HP or revive speed, not reviving stomped players, things like that. As a whole the system needs to stay.
You pretty much want to be pushing always with or without Downstate, that’s how you win fights (Note this doesn’t apply to group vs group) but in zerg vs zerg, the group that pushes is usually the one who wins.
As for the whole “Removing downstate would cause more glass cannons” Really? Cause all i see right now is Glass Cannons because you have to do a crap ton of damage to the person once he’s down to kill them most of the time. Glass Cannons are going to be common again with or without downstate. All Downstate does is reward zerging the crap out of someone.
I’m sorry your tactics from DAOC or [insert other game] don’t work here, but this is a different game. Please adapt. This Friday, Tier 2 had such an epic fight in the SoR borderland’s Garrison that would not have been nearly as epic if the downed state, rallying, and raise mechanics did not exist (see video posted in SBI/SOR/TC thread). Please don’t ruin this game by trying to convince ANET to force your opinionated views on the rest of us.
If the downed state is really only useful to “bad players,” why should ArenaNet remove it? So that new players stand no chance against veterans? Are you also in favor of removing the level/gear upscaling in WvW?
I’m curious, how long do you think a typical battle should last? It takes a couple minutes to travel across the map and you want to send people packing in a fraction of that time? Where’s the fun in that and do you honestly think that’ll make people want to roam around solo even more?
For those unfamiliar with the mechanics of the game, once downed, players do suffer a penalty which makes them easier to kill (25% less health on downed). After 5 downings, players instantly die (3 if you’re an Elementalist using mist-form every time). Same with death: each death damages armor, and after all armor is damaged, equipment starts becoming destroyed (the 8th death if you have a backpack).
Here’s a tip: healing downed/dead players is a risky behavior. Make those ‘combat healers’ earn their title by putting the pain on them and/or using your interrupts. They’re free targets after all, so those who want to be able to gank people right and proper should love focusing these folks. This is how we create graveyards in the game, people.
You are right in that this game makes it much more difficult for solo-ganking because of the downed mechanic (though 1v2s are easier, ime, if the second enemy stops fighting to rally the downed one).
I’m sorry your tactics from DAOC or [insert other game] don’t work here, but this is a different game. Please adapt. This Friday, Tier 2 had such an epic fight in the SoR borderland’s Garrison that would not have been nearly as epic if the downed state, rallying, and raise mechanics did not exist (see video posted in SBI/SOR/TC thread). Please don’t ruin this game by trying to convince ANET to force your opinionated views on the rest of us.
If the downed state is really only useful to “bad players,” why should ArenaNet remove it? So that new players stand no chance against veterans? Are you also in favor of removing the level/gear upscaling in WvW?
I’m curious, how long do you think a typical battle should last? It takes a couple minutes to travel across the map and you want to send people packing in a fraction of that time? Where’s the fun in that and do you honestly think that’ll make people want to roam around solo even more?
For those unfamiliar with the mechanics of the game, once downed, players do suffer a penalty which makes them easier to kill (25% less health on downed). After 5 downings, players instantly die (3 if you’re an Elementalist using mist-form every time). Same with death: each death damages armor, and after all armor is damaged, equipment starts becoming destroyed (the 8th death if you have a backpack).
Here’s a tip: healing downed/dead players is a risky behavior. Make those ‘combat healers’ earn their title by putting the pain on them and/or using your interrupts. They’re free targets after all, so those who want to be able to gank people right and proper should love focusing these folks. This is how we create graveyards in the game, people.
You are right in that this game makes it much more difficult for solo-ganking because of the downed mechanic (though 1v2s are easier, ime, if the second enemy stops fighting to rally the downed one).
I’m sorry that DAOC 12 year old Mechanics are superior to this game.. My bad.. Like i said earlier, WoW made all games after it pretty awful at PvP, and GW2 is really no different, It’s got different mechanics that some people will tell you to adapt to, But they’re really not better mechanics, They’re just designed for bads couldn’t manage the Trinity setup and spent a whole lot of time complaining about how they lost cause they failed to kill the healer.
So now we have Combat Res on everyone..With No Penalty for dying (Lets face it, If you’re dying once every minute in a zerg…Then No amount of Mechanics will save you)
As for your talking about, Your armor is only damaged when you’re stomped… We’re not talking about that, We’re talking about the actual down state that you can rally from. So Basically as long as you stay up for 1 minute, There is no Penalty for dying in this game..
As for killing the Rezzer, Again this only works in some cases, Like if you’re full Glass Cannon Burst Build, But if you’re condition spec you’re screwed, then you throw in things like Stealth Rezzing….When ya need 3 or 4 people just to counter 1 dude Rezzing, Something is wrong with the mechanics in the game.
Have you considered, in your solo condition build, equipping skills that would interrupt the rezzer? I’m not sure what class you play, but it should be possible – I know Ranger has various dazes and knockbacks (Concussive shot, Hilt bash, Point Blank Shot) and so does their pet (though good luck trying to aim a moa’s daze on a hidden enemy – probably more luck targeting the downed player and hoping it’ll hit the rezzer, too).
Easy solution to downed state: implement a real death/downed penalty that stacks with each down, similar to the GW1 mechanic.
The rally thing is much worse then the downed state. I know a number of times i pressed to down the other player only to be downed and stomped immediately giving them a rally.
it gives impression that i should not down someone if I dont think i will live to see them killed.
There are situations where the downed state is very cool like duels and whatnot.
maybe there should be a rally penalty for true rallies. all debuffs for 5 seconds. crippled/chilled/weakness and such. warrior gets it after they rally from vengence.
A rez sickness might be OK too when a dead player is rezzed lasting longer.
it might be reasonable to add an ability to interrupt a rez without an attack. attacking player can pull a rezzer off knocking them down.
Knockback and such are not equal among classes.
really the only advantage DAOC had was the map. It was a huge seemless world with a variety of choke points and cover.
cover is a problem in this game as the name tags are so easily visible.
GW2 has decent mechanics in the wvw system itself.
Have you considered, in your solo condition build, equipping skills that would interrupt the rezzer? I’m not sure what class you play, but it should be possible – I know Ranger has various dazes and knockbacks (Concussive shot, Hilt bash, Point Blank Shot) and so does their pet (though good luck trying to aim a moa’s daze on a hidden enemy – probably more luck targeting the downed player and hoping it’ll hit the rezzer, too).
Interrupting the Rezzer? You’re aware that if you interrupt him he can simply start right back up at it, Bout the only thing you can do is Knockback the target, In case of the Ranger though that requires a longbow, which is absolutely crap for condition based builds, and more importantly solo or small manning.
The best bet would be to use the Wolf for Fear.
But even still, You have to hope ya land it, otherwise they’ll just res, and if its a stealth resser nothing really you can do (Or a random mob dying nearby)
The rally thing is much worse then the downed state. I know a number of times i pressed to down the other player only to be downed and stomped immediately giving them a rally.
it gives impression that i should not down someone if I dont think i will live to see them killed.There are situations where the downed state is very cool like duels and whatnot.
maybe there should be a rally penalty for true rallies. all debuffs for 5 seconds. crippled/chilled/weakness and such. warrior gets it after they rally from vengence.
A rez sickness might be OK too when a dead player is rezzed lasting longer.it might be reasonable to add an ability to interrupt a rez without an attack. attacking player can pull a rezzer off knocking them down.
Knockback and such are not equal among classes.really the only advantage DAOC had was the map. It was a huge seemless world with a variety of choke points and cover.
cover is a problem in this game as the name tags are so easily visible.
GW2 has decent mechanics in the wvw system itself.
The only advantage DAOC had was the map?
How about the Interrupt System, the 44 Classes, The Realm Rank System, the rewarding Solo/Group/Zerg Play, a much better loot system, far more interesting skill system, No Culling, 3 Distinct Realms and Maps…
GW2 cannot be compared to DAOC, GW2 has basically the WvW system which is a shallow version of DAOCS system, People only play it because its honestly the closest thing to DAOC in a long time..But it is not DAOC…not by a bloody long shot…
1. Keep Downed state reviving
2. Remove in-combat Defeated state reviving
3. Increase out-of-combat Defeated state reviving time
(edited by akanibbles.6237)
The rally thing is much worse then the downed state. I know a number of times i pressed to down the other player only to be downed and stomped immediately giving them a rally.
it gives impression that i should not down someone if I dont think i will live to see them killed.There are situations where the downed state is very cool like duels and whatnot.
maybe there should be a rally penalty for true rallies. all debuffs for 5 seconds. crippled/chilled/weakness and such. warrior gets it after they rally from vengence.
A rez sickness might be OK too when a dead player is rezzed lasting longer.it might be reasonable to add an ability to interrupt a rez without an attack. attacking player can pull a rezzer off knocking them down.
Knockback and such are not equal among classes.really the only advantage DAOC had was the map. It was a huge seemless world with a variety of choke points and cover.
cover is a problem in this game as the name tags are so easily visible.
GW2 has decent mechanics in the wvw system itself.The only advantage DAOC had was the map?
How about the Interrupt System, the 44 Classes, The Realm Rank System, the rewarding Solo/Group/Zerg Play, a much better loot system, far more interesting skill system, No Culling, 3 Distinct Realms and Maps…
GW2 cannot be compared to DAOC, GW2 has basically the WvW system which is a shallow version of DAOCS system, People only play it because its honestly the closest thing to DAOC in a long time..But it is not DAOC…not by a bloody long shot…
DAOC was utter kitten poo when it came out. It took them so many long years to start making that game worthwhile. such obvious things too. like perma mez and stun. Thats not a “im terribad” thing its just terribad. it literally was perma mez or stun. Thane and a healer taking out armies.
no matter. im glad daoc is gone. good riddence. i did my time at the trees. not going back there.
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